This is horendous. I thought we were passed all of this. Jews registering is going backwards - not forewards. Will people be vocal about condemming this?
Well....the world is getting more crazy by the minute. It turns out that this was some kind of political game according to the media, if we can believe half of what we read , as graeme the critic often says.
Original story, see next post for rebuttal: Quote
An Israeli official also told Fox News that the issue was brought to the attention of the Israeli embassy and foreign ministry, though they also presume the leaflets were handed out by local militia members as a kind of provocation. The official said the notices were distributed by masked men.
Yet the accounts gained international attention as Kerry condemned the notices on the sidelines of the diplomatic summit in Geneva.
"Just in the last couple of days, notices were sent to Jews in one city indicating that they have to identify themselves as Jews," he said Thursday. "In the year 2014, after all of the miles traveled and all of the journey of history, this is not just intolerable -- it's grotesque. It is beyond unacceptable."
Kerry said if anyone engages in these kinds of activities on either side, "there is no place for that."
The notices reportedly were sent to areas where pro-Russian activists have declared the region as a "people's republic" in defiance of the central Ukrainian government.
Ynet reported the flyers said that because Jewish community leaders supported a Ukrainian nationalist movement and "oppose the pro-Slavic People's Republic of Donetsk," the interim government has decided: "that all citizens of Jewish descent, over 16 years of age and residing within the republic's territory are required to report to the Commissioner for Nationalities in the Donetsk Regional Administration building and register."
The notices reportedly demand Jews pay a $50 registration fee.
State Department spokeswoman Marie Harf said Thursday that U.S. officials were trying to gather more information.
Fox News' Leland Vittert contributed to this report.
Today, the Western press caught up with the Ukrainian rumor mill: apparently, the People's Republic of Donetsk had ordered all Jews over the age of 16 to pay a fee of $50 U.S. and register with the new "authorities," or face loss of citizenship or expulsion. This was laid out in officious-looking fliers pasted on the local synagogue. One local snapped a photo of the fliers and sent it to a friend in Israel, who then took it to the Israeli press and, voila, an international scandal:
American Twitter is abuzz with it, Drudge ishawking it, and, today in Geneva, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry slammed the fliers as "grotesque."
The Donetsk Jewish community dismissed this as "a provocation," which it clearly is. "It's an obvious provocation designed to get this exact response, going all the way up to Kerry," says Fyodr Lukyanov, editor of Russia in Global Affairs. "I have no doubt that there is a sizeable community of anti-Semites on both sides of the barricades, but for one of them to do something this stupid—this is done to compromise the pro-Russian groups in the east."
So, in conclusion: the Jews of Donetsk and eastern Ukraine may have been asked by a leaflet to register, but it has not been enforced nor are any Ukrainian Jews registering themselves. If that changes, I'll be all over it, but so far, you can breathe easy.
This is horendous. I thought we were passed all of this. Jews registering is going backwards - not forewards. Will people be vocal about condemming this?
I hope there'll be a global outcry!
crazyheart
Posted on: 04/18/2014 18:06
Is there no outcry?
Arminius
Posted on: 04/18/2014 19:13
crazyheart wrote:
Is there no outcry?
Yes, there is, but not loud enough. There should be a howl of outrage!
chemgal
Posted on: 04/18/2014 19:50
CH, I think it would help if you gave us the specifics. I've heard various things.
Being asked to register isn't itself a big concern IMO. I did it for the city yesterday. It's different, but it would be easy to write something with a slant to make a similar suggestion. Ie. Jews in this city were asked to register (failing to mention that they weren't singled out, it was just requested that they along with everyone does).
As for "Jews registering is going backwards"
I agree, but I haven't actually heard of any doing so.
I agree that it was horrible that a group handed out such flyers. I've seen a fair bit of outcry about it.
I don't fully understand the real story, and I don't think I'm alone. Depending on the article, the blame is going to different groups. It sounds like that was partially why the offending group did it - to have others blamed. I think there would a be a louder outcry if there was less confusion. I certainly haven't seen anything to suggest that people find it acceptable.
InannaWhimsey
Posted on: 04/18/2014 19:47
PAY ATTENTION
BREATHE DEEPLY
NEWS IS NOT BY DEFINITION NEWS
IT IS SOMETHING ABERRANT, AN OUTLIER, NOT NORMAL AT ALL. IT EXAGGERATES, SLICES LIFE APART INTO NEAT NARRATIVE CHUNKS
now that you've experienced your in-the-moment feelings that become facts, all the fears and anxieties that pour forth (and watch how fast you believe and categorize this particular experience)
now to defrag them:
the Ukraine IS NOT ASKING FOR JEWS TO REGISTER. THE GOVERNMENT ISN'T.
some people wearing hoods/masks were handing out pamphlets (that have been confirmed by CNN) at one specific synagogue in Donetsk telling Jews over 16 to register. The signature was supposed to be of the 'governor' of the 'people's Republic of Donetsk' (which is the creation of some pro-Russians). The 'governor' was asked and said that he did not produce that and he thinks it is dangerous, that someone is trying to stir up trouble.
So to me, the real danger would be if the STATE would be doing this.
And yes, the world is crazy :3 Robert Heinlein called it the Crazy Years. We believe all sorts of crazy, fool things.
*burns a Koran, a Hebrew Bibble, KJV, a Science Textbook, the Declaration of Independence*
Pinga
Posted on: 04/18/2014 20:18
agreed, it is wrong, but it isn't what the news were originally reporting
InannaWhimsey
Posted on: 04/18/2014 20:12
and i think this is an invaluable opportunity for folks on WC to pay attention to their thoughts and feelings, to step back from the computer and just watch, openly, observing how and where your feelings & thoughts come from...like watching weather and fish and S.O's :3
graeme
Posted on: 04/18/2014 20:44
Of course, there will be an outcry. If it applied to Moslems there wouldn't be. After all, the US has infliected suffering on Moslems as great as that sufered by Jews in Germany. But I haven't heard Kerry speak on that.
Trust the self-righteous to do what is expected.
For that matter, the whole of Ukraine has an appalling record for anti-semitism - the biggest killer of Jews after Hitler's reich. And that was not all or mostly by Russian speaking Ukrainians.
How good of americans to be indignant at such behaviour - forgetting their record of slaughers and media-blown hate campaigns.
The indignantly self-righeous will be the same ones who cheered the boys for killing over two million Vietnamese and over a million Iraqis. And cheered Israelis for killing and stealing land from Palestinians.
We still don't have clear evidence of that leaflet campaign. It could be by the council. It could be done by anti-Russian Ukrainians. It could be orchestrated by Israelis or Americans.
It's a pretty evil world out there. But we should never kid ourselves we are the good guys looking on. We're as evil as the worst.
They're at the brink of civil war. Social disorganization. These are old school small towns where racism and zenophobia runs deep, and small cities and there are people going around spreading rumors, slagging everyone else, trying to put the blame somewhere, and being really awful about it, is my guess.
InannaWhimsey
Posted on: 04/18/2014 22:38
Kimmio wrote:
They're at the brink of civil war. Social disorganization. These are old school small towns where racism and zenophobia runs deep, and cities and there are people going around spreading rumors, slagging everyone else, trying to put the blame somewhere, and being really awful about it, is my guess.
that racism & xenophobia seems to be normal?
i recall my friend from Russia/Ukraine telling me aboot the differences in culture just between within the city of Moscow and just outsde the city limits...people can tell by one's dress and accent just where you are from and treat you accordingly...mainly 'gtfo back to your home'
He pointed out that you can always tell when someone is from Russia here in Canada because they are always looking around, suspicious...
Kimmio
Posted on: 04/18/2014 22:47
I don't know about that but my husband is originally half Serb half Croatian and people will judge him depending on where he goes by his family name or his mother or father's name. It's really ridiculous, considering how alike both sides are anyway. More alike than different.
Kimmio
Posted on: 04/18/2014 22:46
There's racism here but we're used to being pluralistic more than in old Europe.
InannaWhimsey
Posted on: 04/18/2014 22:47
Kimmio wrote:
I don't know about that but my husband is half Serb half Croatian and people will judge him depending on where he goes by his family name or his mother or father's name. It's really ridiculous, considering how alike both sides are anyway. More alike than different.
thus the importance of places like the US & Canada where we have tried to leave that cultural shit behind...
Kimmio
Posted on: 04/18/2014 23:17
I agree. We do have racism, of course. Any is too much, but it's not nearly as pervasive as old Europe. With all the different cultures here, we get along pretty well overall, especially in Canada. We're wealthier too, so generally better educated about other cultures nowdays, I think. We're fortunate here more than we often realize.
waterfall
Posted on: 04/18/2014 23:16
Is this similar to registering for Indian status?
crazyheart
Posted on: 04/18/2014 23:19
Good question, waterfall. Something else to be outraged about.
Kimmio
Posted on: 04/18/2014 23:24
Not quite the same, no. Because people who register for Indian status are given some compensation for the rights taken away from them by the colonials. Although all First Nations people should be recognized and not sure why it's still called "Indian" status, though.
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 04/19/2014 09:12
What are true thoughts when such warpage of news (Nus) is commonly un cognizant ... by people that wouldn't wish to be knowledgeable about such things any way whatsoever!
You'd have to be out of here to see such things ... thus the abstract NDE ... like eis looking over your shoulder as a Heiseinberg consciousness ... that dizzy feeling you get when you really look at the truth of life as deemed wonderful by those juiced by rich and powerful status ... the OEM ble bunch ...
Yah have to say this in this manna as cynicism of the rich and powerful is deny'd to po; phoqah ... did youknow rich and powerful in Classic Tongues is Roman Judi'-ism? Sort of ana palling coverup by reverse satyr! The superfluously pious refute this ... perhaps a mire abstract!
graeme
Posted on: 04/19/2014 16:23
Let's get real. WE are as racist as they come. Always have been. The British Empire was an extraordinarily racist affair. Winston churchill was a raving racist, just like his social circle, quite convinced that white, English people were a superior race.
Canada has a long record of discrimination against Africans, Jews, native peoples and , yes, Ukrainians. Our immigration policy have always been steeped in racism. That's why Harper won't let Romas in. That's why Canada wouldn't let jews in in the 1930s - or even after the war.
Our news media steep us in hatred of whatever "race" is the flavour of the month - Moslems, Russians. The whole underpinning of imperialism is racism. We have a right to conquer those people because they are inferior. That's why both Canada and the US deliberately allowed native peoples to starve to death. that's why they abused them in native schools. That's why we can murder Vietnamese by the millions and nobody cared.
We are all racists, and very brutal ones. But we only see it when somebody else is racist. As Pogo said, "We have met the enemy and he is us."
Panentheism
Posted on: 04/19/2014 17:08
The so called registration was something the pro russians did 0 according to Reuters.
InannaWhimsey
Posted on: 04/19/2014 17:10
Kimmio wrote:
I agree. We do have racism, of course. Any is too much, but it's not nearly as pervasive as old Europe. With all the different cultures here, we get along pretty well overall, especially in Canada. We're wealthier too, so generally better educated about other cultures nowdays, I think. We're fortunate here more than we often realize.
yeah, how to get everyone in the same in-group while still retaining choice?
graeme
Posted on: 04/19/2014 19:32
The registration was something done - accordeing to Reuters. Okay. According to most news agencies, there was no coup. The word was rarely used. According to most news agencies, the US had nothing to do with the coup.
The fact is that North America has news services that are really propaganda agencies And it happens in Europe, too. The BBC has become dreadful. In fact, it's now under investigation in that very area.
So why trust Reuters?
Kimmio
Posted on: 04/19/2014 23:34
graeme wrote:
Let's get real. WE are as racist as they come. Always have been. The British Empire was an extraordinarily racist affair. Winston churchill was a raving racist, just like his social circle, quite convinced that white, English people were a superior race.
Canada has a long record of discrimination against Africans, Jews, native peoples and , yes, Ukrainians. Our immigration policy have always been steeped in racism. That's why Harper won't let Romas in. That's why Canada wouldn't let jews in in the 1930s - or even after the war.
Our news media steep us in hatred of whatever "race" is the flavour of the month - Moslems, Russians. The whole underpinning of imperialism is racism. We have a right to conquer those people because they are inferior. That's why both Canada and the US deliberately allowed native peoples to starve to death. that's why they abused them in native schools. That's why we can murder Vietnamese by the millions and nobody cared.
We are all racists, and very brutal ones. But we only see it when somebody else is racist. As Pogo said, "We have met the enemy and he is us."
We are racist in Canada, too, yes. Every generation that is used to being among different cultures, generally, the less racist they become. My generation in Canada is less racist than the baby boomers overall, and they're less racist than my grandparents generation. The millenials are less racist than my generation was...etc. Kids won't put up with the same discrimination as the generation before them. They know it's stupid. They know human rights. They live in a multicultural society and always have. It's only when people are taught that it's expected that they carry the same bigotry as their parents and grandparents had that we see problems. In Canada, at least there is the opportunity to examine racism and 'unlearn' it through education and exposure to different cultures. Some places, that is not possible (or much less likely to be unlearned) because it's still so entrenched. There are still pockets in Canada slow to unlearn it, I suppose. Here in Vancouver, overall it is more multicultural than it is Anglo Saxon, and we like it that way. I haven't lived in a predominantly white Anglo saxon area for over 15 years, so I'm seeing Canada differently from here, maybe. The best of how it can be.
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 04/20/2014 04:12
Why that age old wisdom about examining your's elf ...
It is a ruagh pilgrimage for those on fixed positions ...
It could require a soft hart and a strong mind ... Christians aren't big on soul! Scary for then you'd know things and this is sad ... perhaps sadeistic the way things turn out in realpolitics ... no mediums or mellow sorts ... just extremes by nature of the binary code ... the rest are out of here or will be if that paris/parse has it's way ...
It all in the way you twist your mouth ... like , , or
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 04/20/2014 04:12
The horned part can lead to head aches ...
Panentheism
Posted on: 04/21/2014 23:53
Graeme continues to act with false equivalency which is a basic problem in philosophical discussions,
Other indepentend sources also blame the pro russian group ( really russians?)
graeme
Posted on: 04/22/2014 17:02
This isn't a philosophical discussion. I have no doubt there are murderous people on both sides (in fact, on a dozen of so sides.)
We live in a world based on evil. That includes all the nice people on our side as well as the ugly ones on the other side. Obama is a foul a killer as you will ever see.
That's why I'm amazed to find this on the religion thread. Usually, the only interest here is on the magical aspects of Christianity or the safely abstract generalizationis about morality.
The US is far the most destructive of the two because it is in a position to be that. There are, I'm afraid, a great many people in this world who would be just as happy to be as murderous as him.
There is NO morality out there. Not on the other side. Not on ours.
As for equivalency, I have no idea how one would measure such equivalency. Nor do I see the point in it.
What I object to is the refusal of the western world to see how evil it is - and always has been. It sees evil readily enough in others - but not in itself.
Our economic system has come to be based on pure greed - and it largely directs our lust for war. We have come to bear a remarkable resemblance to the Nazi regime. And we really don't notice it..
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 04/23/2014 09:31
Is what we see as moral code, one lacking in Ethics, Graeme? The conflict of d'ontological and Teleological is fierce ... allowing connecting of NDEs ... if you cared ... most don't ...
Most will just slide along with the flow and not stand up to observe the real consequences that are beyond us ... a hidden icon of the Meer Cats in the World of Pi ... one who has been all round the cycle ... some digging and scratching required ... the conceiving of thought from scratch? Ho'duh thunk IÐ! (prior tense of "think" that is out of vogue, Romantic powers despise thinkers and just desire to do their wiles)
graeme
Posted on: 04/23/2014 19:40
Well, we do seem to use moral and conventional as synonyms.
Comments
stardust
Posted on: 04/18/2014 11:39
crazyheart
Well....the world is getting more crazy by the minute. It turns out that this was some kind of political game according to the media, if we can believe half of what we read , as graeme the critic often says.
Original story, see next post for rebuttal: Quote
An Israeli official also told Fox News that the issue was brought to the attention of the Israeli embassy and foreign ministry, though they also presume the leaflets were handed out by local militia members as a kind of provocation. The official said the notices were distributed by masked men.
Yet the accounts gained international attention as Kerry condemned the notices on the sidelines of the diplomatic summit in Geneva.
"Just in the last couple of days, notices were sent to Jews in one city indicating that they have to identify themselves as Jews," he said Thursday. "In the year 2014, after all of the miles traveled and all of the journey of history, this is not just intolerable -- it's grotesque. It is beyond unacceptable."
Kerry said if anyone engages in these kinds of activities on either side, "there is no place for that."
The notices reportedly were sent to areas where pro-Russian activists have declared the region as a "people's republic" in defiance of the central Ukrainian government.
Ynet reported the flyers said that because Jewish community leaders supported a Ukrainian nationalist movement and "oppose the pro-Slavic People's Republic of Donetsk," the interim government has decided: "that all citizens of Jewish descent, over 16 years of age and residing within the republic's territory are required to report to the Commissioner for Nationalities in the Donetsk Regional Administration building and register."
The notices reportedly demand Jews pay a $50 registration fee.
State Department spokeswoman Marie Harf said Thursday that U.S. officials were trying to gather more information.
Fox News' Leland Vittert contributed to this report.
stardust
Posted on: 04/18/2014 11:42
Today, the Western press caught up with the Ukrainian rumor mill: apparently, the People's Republic of Donetsk had ordered all Jews over the age of 16 to pay a fee of $50 U.S. and register with the new "authorities," or face loss of citizenship or expulsion. This was laid out in officious-looking fliers pasted on the local synagogue. One local snapped a photo of the fliers and sent it to a friend in Israel, who then took it to the Israeli press and, voila, an international scandal:
American Twitter is abuzz with it, Drudge ishawking it, and, today in Geneva, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry slammed the fliers as "grotesque."
The Donetsk Jewish community dismissed this as "a provocation," which it clearly is. "It's an obvious provocation designed to get this exact response, going all the way up to Kerry," says Fyodr Lukyanov, editor of Russia in Global Affairs. "I have no doubt that there is a sizeable community of anti-Semites on both sides of the barricades, but for one of them to do something this stupid—this is done to compromise the pro-Russian groups in the east."
Azdgari
Posted on: 04/18/2014 11:43
A Jewish advocacy group urges skepticism:
http://www.dailydot.com/politics/ukraine-jewish-registry-fake/
Arminius
Posted on: 04/18/2014 11:45
This is horendous. I thought we were passed all of this. Jews registering is going backwards - not forewards. Will people be vocal about condemming this?
I hope there'll be a global outcry!
crazyheart
Posted on: 04/18/2014 18:06
Is there no outcry?
Arminius
Posted on: 04/18/2014 19:13
Is there no outcry?
Yes, there is, but not loud enough. There should be a howl of outrage!
chemgal
Posted on: 04/18/2014 19:50
CH, I think it would help if you gave us the specifics. I've heard various things.
Being asked to register isn't itself a big concern IMO. I did it for the city yesterday. It's different, but it would be easy to write something with a slant to make a similar suggestion. Ie. Jews in this city were asked to register (failing to mention that they weren't singled out, it was just requested that they along with everyone does).
As for "Jews registering is going backwards"
I agree, but I haven't actually heard of any doing so.
I agree that it was horrible that a group handed out such flyers. I've seen a fair bit of outcry about it.
I don't fully understand the real story, and I don't think I'm alone. Depending on the article, the blame is going to different groups. It sounds like that was partially why the offending group did it - to have others blamed. I think there would a be a louder outcry if there was less confusion. I certainly haven't seen anything to suggest that people find it acceptable.
InannaWhimsey
Posted on: 04/18/2014 19:47
PAY ATTENTION
BREATHE DEEPLY
NEWS IS NOT BY DEFINITION NEWS
IT IS SOMETHING ABERRANT, AN OUTLIER, NOT NORMAL AT ALL. IT EXAGGERATES, SLICES LIFE APART INTO NEAT NARRATIVE CHUNKS
now that you've experienced your in-the-moment feelings that become facts, all the fears and anxieties that pour forth (and watch how fast you believe and categorize this particular experience)
now to defrag them:
the Ukraine IS NOT ASKING FOR JEWS TO REGISTER. THE GOVERNMENT ISN'T.
some people wearing hoods/masks were handing out pamphlets (that have been confirmed by CNN) at one specific synagogue in Donetsk telling Jews over 16 to register. The signature was supposed to be of the 'governor' of the 'people's Republic of Donetsk' (which is the creation of some pro-Russians). The 'governor' was asked and said that he did not produce that and he thinks it is dangerous, that someone is trying to stir up trouble.
So to me, the real danger would be if the STATE would be doing this.
And yes, the world is crazy :3 Robert Heinlein called it the Crazy Years. We believe all sorts of crazy, fool things.
*burns a Koran, a Hebrew Bibble, KJV, a Science Textbook, the Declaration of Independence*
Pinga
Posted on: 04/18/2014 20:18
agreed, it is wrong, but it isn't what the news were originally reporting
InannaWhimsey
Posted on: 04/18/2014 20:12
and i think this is an invaluable opportunity for folks on WC to pay attention to their thoughts and feelings, to step back from the computer and just watch, openly, observing how and where your feelings & thoughts come from...like watching weather and fish and S.O's :3
graeme
Posted on: 04/18/2014 20:44
Of course, there will be an outcry. If it applied to Moslems there wouldn't be. After all, the US has infliected suffering on Moslems as great as that sufered by Jews in Germany. But I haven't heard Kerry speak on that.
Trust the self-righteous to do what is expected.
For that matter, the whole of Ukraine has an appalling record for anti-semitism - the biggest killer of Jews after Hitler's reich. And that was not all or mostly by Russian speaking Ukrainians.
How good of americans to be indignant at such behaviour - forgetting their record of slaughers and media-blown hate campaigns.
The indignantly self-righeous will be the same ones who cheered the boys for killing over two million Vietnamese and over a million Iraqis. And cheered Israelis for killing and stealing land from Palestinians.
We still don't have clear evidence of that leaflet campaign. It could be by the council. It could be done by anti-Russian Ukrainians. It could be orchestrated by Israelis or Americans.
It's a pretty evil world out there. But we should never kid ourselves we are the good guys looking on. We're as evil as the worst.
Kimmio
Posted on: 04/18/2014 22:23
City's chief Rabbi states pamphlet is fake:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/18/antisemitic-donetsk-peoples...
It's still abhorrent.
Kimmio
Posted on: 04/18/2014 22:36
They're at the brink of civil war. Social disorganization. These are old school small towns where racism and zenophobia runs deep, and small cities and there are people going around spreading rumors, slagging everyone else, trying to put the blame somewhere, and being really awful about it, is my guess.
InannaWhimsey
Posted on: 04/18/2014 22:38
that racism & xenophobia seems to be normal?
i recall my friend from Russia/Ukraine telling me aboot the differences in culture just between within the city of Moscow and just outsde the city limits...people can tell by one's dress and accent just where you are from and treat you accordingly...mainly 'gtfo back to your home'
He pointed out that you can always tell when someone is from Russia here in Canada because they are always looking around, suspicious...
Kimmio
Posted on: 04/18/2014 22:47
I don't know about that but my husband is originally half Serb half Croatian and people will judge him depending on where he goes by his family name or his mother or father's name. It's really ridiculous, considering how alike both sides are anyway. More alike than different.
Kimmio
Posted on: 04/18/2014 22:46
There's racism here but we're used to being pluralistic more than in old Europe.
InannaWhimsey
Posted on: 04/18/2014 22:47
thus the importance of places like the US & Canada where we have tried to leave that cultural shit behind...
Kimmio
Posted on: 04/18/2014 23:17
I agree. We do have racism, of course. Any is too much, but it's not nearly as pervasive as old Europe. With all the different cultures here, we get along pretty well overall, especially in Canada. We're wealthier too, so generally better educated about other cultures nowdays, I think. We're fortunate here more than we often realize.
waterfall
Posted on: 04/18/2014 23:16
Is this similar to registering for Indian status?
crazyheart
Posted on: 04/18/2014 23:19
Good question, waterfall. Something else to be outraged about.
Kimmio
Posted on: 04/18/2014 23:24
Not quite the same, no. Because people who register for Indian status are given some compensation for the rights taken away from them by the colonials. Although all First Nations people should be recognized and not sure why it's still called "Indian" status, though.
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 04/19/2014 09:12
What are true thoughts when such warpage of news (Nus) is commonly un cognizant ... by people that wouldn't wish to be knowledgeable about such things any way whatsoever!
You'd have to be out of here to see such things ... thus the abstract NDE ... like eis looking over your shoulder as a Heiseinberg consciousness ... that dizzy feeling you get when you really look at the truth of life as deemed wonderful by those juiced by rich and powerful status ... the OEM ble bunch ...
Yah have to say this in this manna as cynicism of the rich and powerful is deny'd to po; phoqah ... did youknow rich and powerful in Classic Tongues is Roman Judi'-ism? Sort of ana palling coverup by reverse satyr! The superfluously pious refute this ... perhaps a mire abstract!
graeme
Posted on: 04/19/2014 16:23
Let's get real. WE are as racist as they come. Always have been. The British Empire was an extraordinarily racist affair. Winston churchill was a raving racist, just like his social circle, quite convinced that white, English people were a superior race.
Canada has a long record of discrimination against Africans, Jews, native peoples and , yes, Ukrainians. Our immigration policy have always been steeped in racism. That's why Harper won't let Romas in. That's why Canada wouldn't let jews in in the 1930s - or even after the war.
Our news media steep us in hatred of whatever "race" is the flavour of the month - Moslems, Russians. The whole underpinning of imperialism is racism. We have a right to conquer those people because they are inferior. That's why both Canada and the US deliberately allowed native peoples to starve to death. that's why they abused them in native schools. That's why we can murder Vietnamese by the millions and nobody cared.
We are all racists, and very brutal ones. But we only see it when somebody else is racist. As Pogo said, "We have met the enemy and he is us."
Panentheism
Posted on: 04/19/2014 17:08
The so called registration was something the pro russians did 0 according to Reuters.
InannaWhimsey
Posted on: 04/19/2014 17:10
yeah, how to get everyone in the same in-group while still retaining choice?
graeme
Posted on: 04/19/2014 19:32
The registration was something done - accordeing to Reuters. Okay. According to most news agencies, there was no coup. The word was rarely used. According to most news agencies, the US had nothing to do with the coup.
The fact is that North America has news services that are really propaganda agencies And it happens in Europe, too. The BBC has become dreadful. In fact, it's now under investigation in that very area.
So why trust Reuters?
Kimmio
Posted on: 04/19/2014 23:34
Let's get real. WE are as racist as they come. Always have been. The British Empire was an extraordinarily racist affair. Winston churchill was a raving racist, just like his social circle, quite convinced that white, English people were a superior race.
Canada has a long record of discrimination against Africans, Jews, native peoples and , yes, Ukrainians. Our immigration policy have always been steeped in racism. That's why Harper won't let Romas in. That's why Canada wouldn't let jews in in the 1930s - or even after the war.
Our news media steep us in hatred of whatever "race" is the flavour of the month - Moslems, Russians. The whole underpinning of imperialism is racism. We have a right to conquer those people because they are inferior. That's why both Canada and the US deliberately allowed native peoples to starve to death. that's why they abused them in native schools. That's why we can murder Vietnamese by the millions and nobody cared.
We are all racists, and very brutal ones. But we only see it when somebody else is racist. As Pogo said, "We have met the enemy and he is us."
We are racist in Canada, too, yes. Every generation that is used to being among different cultures, generally, the less racist they become. My generation in Canada is less racist than the baby boomers overall, and they're less racist than my grandparents generation. The millenials are less racist than my generation was...etc. Kids won't put up with the same discrimination as the generation before them. They know it's stupid. They know human rights. They live in a multicultural society and always have. It's only when people are taught that it's expected that they carry the same bigotry as their parents and grandparents had that we see problems. In Canada, at least there is the opportunity to examine racism and 'unlearn' it through education and exposure to different cultures. Some places, that is not possible (or much less likely to be unlearned) because it's still so entrenched. There are still pockets in Canada slow to unlearn it, I suppose. Here in Vancouver, overall it is more multicultural than it is Anglo Saxon, and we like it that way. I haven't lived in a predominantly white Anglo saxon area for over 15 years, so I'm seeing Canada differently from here, maybe. The best of how it can be.
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 04/20/2014 04:12
Why that age old wisdom about examining your's elf ...
It is a ruagh pilgrimage for those on fixed positions ...
It could require a soft hart and a strong mind ... Christians aren't big on soul! Scary for then you'd know things and this is sad ... perhaps sadeistic the way things turn out in realpolitics ... no mediums or mellow sorts ... just extremes by nature of the binary code ... the rest are out of here or will be if that paris/parse has it's way ...
It all in the way you twist your mouth ... like
, 
, or
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 04/20/2014 04:12
The horned part can lead to head aches ...
Panentheism
Posted on: 04/21/2014 23:53
Graeme continues to act with false equivalency which is a basic problem in philosophical discussions,
Other indepentend sources also blame the pro russian group ( really russians?)
graeme
Posted on: 04/22/2014 17:02
This isn't a philosophical discussion. I have no doubt there are murderous people on both sides (in fact, on a dozen of so sides.)
We live in a world based on evil. That includes all the nice people on our side as well as the ugly ones on the other side. Obama is a foul a killer as you will ever see.
That's why I'm amazed to find this on the religion thread. Usually, the only interest here is on the magical aspects of Christianity or the safely abstract generalizationis about morality.
The US is far the most destructive of the two because it is in a position to be that. There are, I'm afraid, a great many people in this world who would be just as happy to be as murderous as him.
There is NO morality out there. Not on the other side. Not on ours.
As for equivalency, I have no idea how one would measure such equivalency. Nor do I see the point in it.
What I object to is the refusal of the western world to see how evil it is - and always has been. It sees evil readily enough in others - but not in itself.
Our economic system has come to be based on pure greed - and it largely directs our lust for war. We have come to bear a remarkable resemblance to the Nazi regime. And we really don't notice it..
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 04/23/2014 09:31
Is what we see as moral code, one lacking in Ethics, Graeme? The conflict of d'ontological and Teleological is fierce ... allowing connecting of NDEs ... if you cared ... most don't ...
Most will just slide along with the flow and not stand up to observe the real consequences that are beyond us ... a hidden icon of the Meer Cats in the World of Pi ... one who has been all round the cycle ... some digging and scratching required ... the conceiving of thought from scratch? Ho'duh thunk IÐ! (prior tense of "think" that is out of vogue, Romantic powers despise thinkers and just desire to do their wiles)
graeme
Posted on: 04/23/2014 19:40
Well, we do seem to use moral and conventional as synonyms.