.... or is does this advice promote irresponsibility?

LL&P

Spock

 Funny, I was just reading something to that tune in a book called 'I love God's sense of  humor, I just wish he'd let me in on the joke'. 

I had to pause myself.  I have always believed that God begins where we end.  We are supposed to do what we can,  and then give  it up to God.  Rather than think "no money. I guess I will pray, sit back on the barcalounger and wait for God to deliver."

We are not to WORRY but we also are not to sit on our duff either. We are to do what God has put before us to do.  Go to our job, check the oil in the car regularly,  don't let your kids play in traffic, spend less than we make, basically use the common sense  and abilities God gave us.  That saying on the church lawn definitley demands some further instrucion.  They should have aslo posted: See inside for details...or something like that. 

(incidentally this is one of my favorite topics. )

It is really copping out if we do none of the work and leave it all up to God.

I  see it more as a team effort. Do what you can, and believe that God doesn't give us more than we can handle with His support.

(This is particularly helpful, when things don't work out the way we wanted them too!)

Personally, I believe it's human to worry, whether we want to or not.

I've always been told 'don't worry', that worrying doesn't do any good, that worrying causes ulcers and actually gets in the way of positive action.

Instead I would advise:  don't worry, pray, and then set about working with the Spirit to answer those prayers.   To me, we pray for God's loving support from the beginning, and we leave it in God's hands when we can do nothing more.

 I feel we have all summed this up nicely.

Hi Spock:

God is not running the world for us.

It is rather the other way around: we are running the world for God.

But we have not been very good at it so far.

"We are as gods and might as well get good at it."

-Stewart Brand, Editor, Whole Earth Catalog

If we understand that "not worrying" is not synonymous with "be completely passive and unconcerned about everything" it's good advice. The truth that "worrying accomplishes nothing" is so obvious even many secular sources of advice (start with Dear Abby and go from there) repeat it. Let me use myself as an example. I have Chrone's disease. I don't lose sleep worrying about it but I still take my medicine and go to the doctor as needed. Also I don't thing GOD "worries" as you and I define it but maybe that's a more semantical debate.

Hi spockis53,

Sometimes it would be.  Sometimes it wouldn't be.

Life is complicated that way.

All events are not the same.

Still.  Worrying doesn't seem to accomplish much does it?

Grace and peace to you.

John

RevJohn,

Does worrying accomplish much?  If you consider that stress in general signals that external factors have changed (whether its job loss or a disease or troubled marriage) then we should not be ignoring the signs.  They're telling us that things are "not alright". That is the reason we feel stress and worry. It is a rational motivator to deal and adjust..

People seem to believe there is something wrong with worrying. There is not. Where people go wrong is to worry and then do nothing that responds to effectively solving the problem.

So the next question becomes.... does prayer solve the root problems causing the stress?

LL&P

Spock

Greetings!

We should not worry over those things that we have no control over.  The things we can make a difference in are the things we should do something about - that is the work before us.  The prayer part to me is just talking to God . . . about the things that concern me.  I've never pictured God as a worrier.

Hope, peace, joy, love ...

"So the next question becomes.... does prayer solve the root problems causing the stress?"

Absolutely! very often it does. Where else can you find someone to listen to you for free whenever you feel like it and it doesn't cost you a dime?

Hi spockis53,

There is a difference between ignoring the signs and multiplying the signs isn't there?  Does worry alleviate stress?  Or does stress require something more than worry to ease it?

Leaving it at just that whatever eases the stress and worry is what works.

If prayer can do that then prayer has worked.  As far as eliminating stress and worry goes.

I think that there is something wrong with worrying needlessly.  That said, I don't think that worrying (as far as action goes) resolves anything.

Well if prayer eases the stress and eliminates the worry it may not have dealt effectively with the problem it may simply have addressed the most bothersome symptom.  Of course, it might very well be that life was tolerable with situations being what they were but the worrying added an extra burden that made things intolerable.

And that would depend upon the nature of the problem or would it depend upon the nature of the believer or would it depend upon what was identified as the problem?  Life can be pretty complex.

Grace and peace to you.

John

LL&P

Spock

[/quote]

John,

Worry is the natural aggrivator that motivates someone to fix the root problem. Eg. if I have a splinter, I remove it; if I loose my job, I search for another; if I have cancer, I seek medical help....

If the 'worry symptom' is alleviated through prayer, why would anyone care to remove the splinter, get a job and cure the cancer?

LL&P

SPock

There is no evidence that prayer solves any root problems to human stress. In fact studies have shown that prayer can sometimes increase the symptoms of underlying disease by  enhancing the perceived importance of the associated stress.

Do you have any evidence at all to support your statement that "Prayer often solves the root problems causing stress."  ?

LL&P

Spock

Are you confusing worry with pain?

That is excellent advice. Even Jesus said, "Be anxious for nothing." That does not mean however that we as individuals do not need to do our part. It just means that the end result is up to God, not us.

No. 'Worry' is a lay term that equates to 'stress' in my definition. Pain is a type of stress as well as mental preoccupation with a problem. For example, I worry about the splinter; I worry about my cancer; I worry about my job loss. In each statement the better term would be, I 'am stressed' about... etc..

semantics...

LL&P

SPock

Hi spockis53,

I don't believe that is always so.

That is all worry and nothing to do with pain or discomfort?

That is all worry and nothing to do with one's attitude towards life?

That is all worry and has nothing to do with hope?

Because life is more complex than worry.  I work in the garden quite a bit pruning and what not.  I get splinters quite regularly.  Worry is not a motivator in my removing them.  I remove them because they make the job harder if I don't.  I'm not curling into a fetal position crying out for someone to bring me a bottle of purel certain that I've contacted monkey pox or something.

I'll wash up when I go inside.

I might not be worried about losing my job.  I still know that it is easier to feed my family with a paycheque than without one.  So I do what needs to be done to secure another position.  Worrying didn't get me my present job it likely won't get me its replacement.

Cancer is pretty scary.  I would imagine that there would be a lot of worrying going on in the face of that.  Getting medical treatment is not going to put that worry to rest.  If the medical treatment works (no guarantee that it will with my particular case) then I'll stop worrying.  I'll be praying all the while too.

Grace and peace to you.

John

LL&P

SPock

[/quote]

I think there are differing definitions of "worry" in use here. I would define worry as dreading "what ifs". In and of itself it is unproductive and will accomplish nothing more than giving you ulcers. Another definiton has been tossed out that worry is more recognizing a problem and taking action. That is certainly a good thing but I don't think the word "worry" fits. I'm tempted to use "prognosticating" but that's only partially right. Worry is the dread of what might happen. Prognosticating is the diagnosis and understanding of what is/will/could happen and then there's actually dealing with it, which is action.

Spockis53

Its just a slogan; an eye catcher.

I guess for me it would mean that wherever I find myself in life  or no matter how devastating the situation I would  hope to feel that I'm exactly where I'm meant to be. Rather than worrying about it I would be inclined to accept it and view it as a learning experience. If I was out on the street with no lodging I would find a purpose in it. The mystery we call God (or the cosmos) will take care of me. Yes, I would have to take myself to the mission to find food; no manna will fall from the sky. Yes, I would look for a safe shelter at night but hopefully I wouldn't spend all day worrying about it. If I didn't find it and I got murdered that's O.K. too!  Whatever  might happen I like to think God is in my heart and I am in the heart of God.  Us Christians are weird people , eh Spockis ?

Its sort of like this video Spockis. Its a man walking alone. A big black bear might jump out of the woods and eat him for breakfast. God is good and all of God's creatures are provided for .....laugh....!!!!!  (We ourselves have upset the ecology)

When it comes to worry, it's not an either or proposition. By that I mean worry, and the reasons we worry, are many and complex.

I agree with Spock that worry has a useful function to alert us that something's not right.  We then are in the position of considering what action can be done to alleviate the problem   - and then perform this action.

But once worry has served this noble purpose, it's usefulness is finished.

But what if worry continues?

If you're a Christian, you can pray to God for peace of mind.

If you're an athiest, you can take a sleeping pill or similar medication.

If you're a progressive Christian, you can pray to God AND take a sleeping pill.

PP:

Yes,yes it makes sense what yourself and Spock are saying.

If worry continues one can always praise God. Its pretty  hard to sing praises and worry at the same time.

A worry free day :

The Jewish Sabbath

double post

This disscussion reminds me of this piece of prose regarding dealing with things like worry.  I use it's words a lot whether as a prayer or simply as a calming and reflective meditation.

""God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; the courage to change the things I can; and the wisdom to know the difference."

 It still works if you remove God (an outside helper force) from it as a well. 

"I reflect in order to  find the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; the courage to change the things I can; and the wisdom to know the difference." 

Prayer is a time for reflection

   --  prayer can equal root cause analysis time. I can be focussed on an item in prayer

   -- prayer can be a time to be active -- walking, stretching -- this can be a stress reliever, it is active.

 -- prayer can be a time to let your body focus using a guided prayer, such as a scripture practice, where you read a scripture and then use it to focus on a question. ...it basically takes one out of routine way of looking

Prayer can lead to action, such as...removing a splinter (aah, that is why my heal hurts), or trying a different communiction style with a coworker, or

Worrying a bit is ok, but, the word "worrying" for me seems negative to me, if it is all there is.  Worrying about your financial situation doesn't do you any good, if you don't change your patterns, or think about it.

Then again, it is just a slogan on a church.....some are good, some are meant to challenge folks to ask questions....

If worry continues and you have nothing perceptable to worry about, then you might have a psychological problem. Unfounded fear can be debilitating.

Do religious people worry too much about things that don't necessitate worry? Is there a culture of fear that drives people to church?

It's an interesting concept. Certain politico's in the USA exploit unfounded fear to take advantage of people's faith. You can gain a lot of control of people this way.

Maybe the lawn sign was using the same kind of strategy.

LL&P

Spock

revjohn,

Example?

SPock

heh pilgrim...

i feel your comment re the sleeping pill was a bit of a dig to those who dont' define themselves as progressive.

clearly, many christians recognize the statement "god helps those who help themselves"

remember the joke about the man drowning, who refuses all those who come to his aid...expecting God to help him....

I would have to agree. 

Hi spockis53,

I pulled weeds out of my lawn most of Saturday evening.  That solved the root problem (literally) of having weeds in my lawn.

I am not worried about weeds in my lawn.  They keep it green when the summer drought hits (far greener than my neighbour who is constantly seeding and fertilizing).  I also like the biodiversity.

I could have not pulled weeds because, as I said, I'm very laissez-faire when it comes to lawn maintenance.  My wife feels differently and I could have very easily said, "That's your problem you do something about it."  That might have been received as overly harsh and caused some legitimate worry and concern on my part.

My motivation was that I love my wife and doing so would please her.

I do not worry about not pleasing her, I generally do a good job on that front.  Yet, wisdom shows that every opportunity is an opportunity.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi Pinga,

My comment re the sleeping pill was a bit of light hearted fun, suggesting that Christian progressives like myself have more available options when it comes to putting a stop to ongoing worry. (We are often accused by orthodox/literal Christians of constructing Christianity to suit ourselves!)

My tongue was firmly planted in my cheek - and no offence was intended.

Spock,

Re your comment " Do religious people worry too much about things that don't necessitate worry?"

Probably. As do agnostics and athiests.

Religious people turn to their concept of God to help them out, where do agnostics and athiests turn? A psychiatrist?

Progressive Christians turn to a Christian psychiatrist (with apologies to Pinga!) 

Total irresponsibility!!

God does not worry!

Be Blessed,

IB

That does't answer the question.  I was looking for an example of  'worry' (stress) that is not a natural motivator to have someone do something. You said you know of some examples ?

LL&P

Spock

Interseting spin accepted.  My point was that, often, religious people deal with circumstantial problems by comforting themselves in their beliefs.  That is fine, personally, but does it solve their real-world problems?  No.

LL&P

Spock

Is that a good thing? or a bad thing?

LL&P

SPock

There are plenty of circumstances in everyday life where the source of worry cannot be addressed because even though it may motivate a person to do something about the root cause, nothing can in effect be done to fix the "problem".  The advice Spock takes issue with, I believe, is meant to help with just that sort of circumstance: to help a person remain calm and hopeful in the face of powerlessness, perceived or real.

Some examples:

I am sure there are plenty of people deeply worried about the state of the world economy, the stock markets, their pension plans, their jobs etc..  They may well be motivated to address the problem but can they do anything at all to address the root issues?? 

How about swine flue/bird flue/rat flue/ whatever flue...  Again, there is plenty of worry about it, and sure, a person can cancel their trip to Mexico.  But what can they do to avoid contracting the disease if it gets here anyway? 

Any parent will tell you that they have a billion worries about their child(ren), regardless of age or stage of development.  They can identify the root cause of their stress - their child's current stage of development, or health problem, or emotional problem - but what can they do if say, their teenager is out past curfew and they don't know where that teen is at the moment??  Or a preschooler has a rash from something and nothing seems to take care of it? Or a toddler won't stop having tantrums?

Here is a more drastic example: your plane is being hijacked, the little worry that this might happen that you had while you boarded the plane has just turned into horror, is there anything you can do to address the root cause?

There are plenty of sources of stress in the face of which, at least for a time, it seems that nothing can be done. 

I would submit that worry is the irresponsible - albeit completely natural and normal - response to these situations of perceived or real powerlessness.  In situations where a solution can be found worry is naturally be a motivator... But then it simply cease to be worry, which by definition is constant, nagging and there are two possible ways for it to dissapate:  outside reprieve (it will lift, at least temporarily, when the teenagers comes home, or the stock market recovers, or the toddler falls asleep or the hijackers surrender) OR trust/faith/hope that the situation will resolve itself soon.  Prayer helps with the latter.

(Off topic: professional economists tell us to go out and spend money we don't have because that will solve the problem of the world economy - what is more reasonable to you?  Going into debt or trying to keep cool with some prayerful deep breathing?)

Agn'

I love that very clearly articulated post...

In fact, all reasons to worry are potentially under our individual or collective control. It's not practical to control them though, since most people will not put the effort into making the informed decision necessary to avoid potential problems.  I have to accept that as reality.

For individuals, yes, prayer does help them get through the stressful event. But it does not help mitigate the source of stress itself. Never has.

LL&P

SPock

Ag, I would counter that prayer / meditation is a time to reflect, and look at root causes or possible solutions.

A routine of prayer is a routine of reflection.

So, I do not equate worry = prayer.   Prayer, in some forms, will allow time to review items from a different perspective, and, begin the steps to a solution.

Given that, it is a way to mitigate stress....

My sense is the difference between understandings of intercessionary prayer, and prayer practices.  Intercessionary prayer is expecting a miracle to occur due the power of prayer alone.  ie...pray to God that the bank account gets returned to a healthy balance is a request for intercessionary prayer.  There are some on this forum who will be able to explain intercessionary prayer.  

I am not referring to intercessionary prayer.  

Pinga, I don't see how what you are saying counters my points.

I was addressing the point about asking/trusting the God will "worry" on our behalf.  And yes, reflecting will lead a person to eventually accept that a) the situation will have a conclusion eventually either way, b) if nothing can be done at that particular moment to resolve the situation, thinking about it obsessively will not lead to a different outcome, c) it's way more  productive/conducive/healthy to rest our minds in the hope that things will work out somehow. 

A religious person may frame all of the above in terms of God's actions /participation/ or even intercession.  I was not equating worry with prayer - I was equating prayer with a means a person uses to ease their worry in the face of powerlessness.  Call it reflection, meditation, asking a Higher Power for help, or just prayer.

I would add that intercessory prayer is not the same as expecting a miracle (though people definitely hope for that).  It seems to me that intercessory prayer is an act of hope. 

Lastly, your point about intercessory prayer to have God fix a bank account is a bit of a jab, isn't it?  Sort of in the spirit of Bill Maher?  Sure, there are people who pray to win the lottery or that their genitals might increase in size... but seriously, are those worthy examples of intercessory prayer? 

I would say that the majority of intercessory prayer is for health and wellbeing for oneself but probably mostly for others.

I would say that the majority of intercessory prayer is for health and wellbeing for oneself but probably mostly for others - Nishy, I think I tend to agree with you.

You appear to have answers that many, myself included, are looking for.  Please say more how the above would be true for some or all of the examples I included in my message.  I specifically chose examples I believe present situations where it is *not* possible to have control.

I think it's fair to say that you had this answer long before you asked the question.

I suspect your point is that prayer does not function like a remote control where we send a signal to God and God sends the corresponding command to the situation thereby changing it.  Few Christians I know ascribe to this belief. 

So, your dramatic delivery is a little over the top...

But there is one thing you have not considered: perhaps the effects of prayer be it reflective, meditative or intercessory do affect the individual sufficiently to be able to then act differently and make the kinds of difficult decision you spoke of.   That has been my personal experience.

 Has anyone read "The Four Hour Workweek" by Timothy Ferriss?  One of the strategies he talked about was actually paying someone else to worry for you.  So you've got a situation, you've taken all the action that you can to resolve it.  Instead of worrying yourself, someone else will worry for you.  Similar?

Kenziedark, just to be the devil's advocate here I gotta ask: how would paying someone prevent you from worrying that whoever you hired isn't slacking off?   Point being, worry is a rather presistent trait/tendency/coping mechanism...

Ag,

I'm with you on this one. "worry is a rather persistent trait/tendency/coping mechanism."

Your examples are excellent.

Spock,

Despite my admitted terror, I would like to be in the seat next to you if our plane was hi-jacked. Either two things would happen:

1.You would demonstrate to me how not to worry in this life threatening situation.

2. You would freak out, like me!

Heh Ag, what I was saying was that contrary to prayer not having an affect, it may have an affect as one may come to a resolution just by taking the time to spend time in prayer.  In other words, the prayer does have a positive affect, but it does by allowing one's brain to process.

I was attempting to show the difference between prayer which alters one own thoughts and approach to an issue, and traditional intercessionary approach which has God intervene in a situation directly. 

I was trying to show Spockis53 how prayer can alter a situation by altering one's approach to a situation.

I am not writing my normal quality, I do apologize..and will back out of the thread. 

Actually the way I read both you and John - you agree - the issue is John is not being either/or -   yes worry helps but to be stuck in worry can lead to inaction to attent to the cause of the worry - what prayer does is to help focus on what we can do and how to respond to deal with the cause of worry - it becomes proaction -  It is not to be frozen in worry or fear - it is to have hope which frees one to act.

Agnieszka, I have no idea.  I've never had enough money to spend it that way!!  I guess I'll just have to do my worrying myself  

My point was that peole worry about hijacking. But collectively we don't seem to want to understand the root causes. Aside from the occassional nutcase, the organized political flavour of hijacking or other terrorist acts persist and we persistently worry about them.  We can bolt the cockpit doors and scan for car bombs, but understanding why they happen and acting to fix the problem is a much better way to spend the effort.

Praying for the answer to 'happen' does nothing.

LL&P

Spock