bump

He's speaking the language of prophetic encouragement (and some prophetic warning as well). The church was going through some hard times and John was calling on them to persevere and not give in to the temptation of giving in (accepting the number of the beast). He tells them of what awaits when Christ comes again because that is something that will give them heart and encouragement to refuse to be "of the world". He says that the Beast (the Roman Emperor, but could stand in for any tyrannical regime that challenges Christian values) will be cast down in the end.

 

Yes, he uses a ton of metaphorical language to speak this message. It may seem dreamy to us but it's quite within the prophetic tradition to speak this way. The key thing is recognize that he was speaking to his times, not forecasting events of today, and that seeing what his message to his time was helps us to see what the real message to us today should be.

 

Too bad the UCCan seems to be uncomfortable with it because I think it can speak to us today and by finding the prophetic voice it presents and interpreting it within a progressive context, we could defuse some of the rather extreme views being imposed upon it by the fundamentalists.

 

IMHO, of course.

 

Mendalla

 

A quick check of my records tells me that in 17 years of ministry I've preached 11 sermons based on passages from the Book of Revelation.

 

Essentially I agree with Mendalla's interpretation of it. John certainly seems to be standing within the prophetic tradition. If I were to summarize the ultimate point and purpose of the book, it is to proclaim that Christ stands over and above history ("I am the Alpha and the Omega") and that he ultimately will be victorious over all that oppresses or otherwise persecutes his people. So, it's a message of hope to a Christian community that was already facing persecution by the Roman Empire at the time of its writing.

Hi Mendalla!

 

 

 

But which prophet?????

 

Parallels between the visions of the Book of Revelation and
the visions of the Book of the Prophet Ezekiel

THE VISION	EZEKIEL	REVELATION
1. The Throne Vision	Chapter 1	Chapter 4
2. The Book Being Opened	Chapters 2-3	Chapter 5
3. The Four Plagues	Chapter 5	Chapter 6:1-8
4. Those Slain Under the aAtar	Chapter.6	Chapter 6:9-11
5. The Wrath of God	Chapter 7	Chapter 6:12-17
6. The Seal on the Saint's Foreheads	Chapter 9	Chapter 7
7. The Coals from the Altar	Chapter.10	Chapter 8
8. The 1/3 Destruction	Chapter 5:1-4 and 12	Chapter 8:6-12
9. No More Delay	Chapter 12	Chapter 10:1-7
10. The Eating of the Book	Chapter 2	Chapter 10:8-11
11. Prophecy against the Nations	Chapters 25-32	Chapter 10:11
12. The Measuring of the Temple	Chapters 40-43	Chapter 11:1-2
13. Comparing Jerusalem to Sodom	Chapter 16	Chapter 11:8
14. The Cup of Wrath	Chapter 23	Chapter 14
15. The Vine of the Land	Chapter 15	Chapter 14:18-20
16. The Great Harlot	Chapters 16, 23	Chapters 17-18
17. The Lament Sung Over the City	Chapter 27	Chapter 18
18. The Scavenger's Feast	Chapter 39	Chapter 19
19. The First Resurrection	Chapter 37	Chapter 20:4-6
20. The Battle of Gog and Magog	Chapter 38-39	Chapter 20:7-9
21. The New Jerusalem	Chapters 40-48	Chapter 21
22. The River of Life	Chapter 47	Chapter 22

 

 

http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Comparisons%20Between%20the%20Visions%20of%20St.%20John%20in%20the%20Book%20of%20Revelation%20and%20the%20Visions%20of%20the%20Prophets%20Ezekiel%20and%20Daniel%20in%20the%20Old%20Testament.htm

 

 

But then, just how much is really new in the  NT?

 

 

 

"If clear allusions are taken into consideration, the figures are much higher: C. H. Toy lists 613 such instances, Wilhelm Dittmar goes as high as 1640, while Eugen Huehn indicates 4105 passages reminiscent of Old Testament Scripture. It can therefore be asserted, without exaggeration, that more than 10 per cent of the New Testament text is made up of citations or direct allusions to the Old Testament. The recorded words of Jesus disclose a similar percentage. Certain books like Revelation, Hebrews, Romans are well nigh saturated with Old Testament forms of language, allusions and quotations. Perusal of Nestle’s edition of the Greek New Testament, in which the Old Testament material is printed in bold face type, will reveal at a glance the extent of this practice. These facts appear even more impressive when one remembers that in New Testament times the Old Testament was not as today duplicated by the million but could be obtained only in expensive handwritten copies."

http://www.bible-researcher.com/nicole.html

 

 

I'm just saying.

interesting, Flor.

Floribunda

Yes, it was the style of the New T. writers to always refer back to the Old T. Some of Jesus parables or stories can be found in it too using a different context. Jesus is credited with bringing the news " to love your enemy"  but its also in the Old T. and in the Talmud. Everything Jesus taught about caring for the poor is in the Talmud, some in the Old T. too. Jesus didn't teach a whole lot that was really knew except to those who had never heard of God as a spirit before IMHO. The  teachings on hell are  unique 'tho, not in the Old T. but lets not go off topic.

 

CH

The book of Rev. gives me the heebie jeebies. I never go there! I suppose as Rev. Davis says its about hope in speaking to the churches today but I see mostly death and destruction in it. I don't think it should have been included in the Canon. There was a lot of debate before it was included.

There are many Jewish and Christian descriptions of the essence of the prophetic charism in laten antiquity.  They generally converge on this sort of understanding: a prophet is a figure divinely authorized to exercise jurisdiction over the conditions of divine forgiveness and redemptive security.  The letters to the 7 churches (Rev. 2-3) each fulfill this understanding nicely and are couched in the widespread Prophecy of Salvation speech form.  In simple terms, the gift of prophecy focuses on the this question: Are outward religious pretenses truly a mirror of inward spiritual realities.  Dogmatic predictions of judgment are always reversible if the people repent and the future is not fixed for prophets. 

 

Revelation was composed in 2 stages at a time when Christians refused their objibation to participate in the Emperor cult.  The Romans didn't care if Christians really believed in the divinity of Caesar (Most Romans did not).  But refusal to participate was equivalant to the refual of immigrants to take the US PLedge of Allegiance.  For this reason John was exiled to Patmos.  Two years ago, I visited the cave where he supposely received his revelations.  But the 7 churches were in danger of extermination. 

 

In Rev. 13, the humber of "the Beast" (666) refers to Emperor Nero, the emperor at the time of the first redaction of Revelation.  Hebrew letters stand for numbers, and if you write "Emperor Nero" in Hebrew and add up the numbers the total is 666.    The beast is mortally wounded and miraculous returns to life to renew the persecution of Christians.  Nero was forced into exile and thought to have committed suicide.  But there were rumors that he had been restored and was planning a triumphant return to Rome.  Indeed, there wre no less than 3 Nero impersonators who terrified Christians.  Of course, emperors persecuted Christians off and on f or the first 3 centuries.  In that sense, the prophecy of Revelation is already  fulfilled and this casts doubt on attempts to seek future fulfillment in our time. 

 

Despite appereances to the contrary, Revelation teaches the possiblity of universal salvation, as do the next 2 Christian apocalypses.

I don't have a handy record of how often I have preached on a passage from Revelations--probably only a few, mostly the new heaven and new earth passages; but have engaged in Bible studies on it.  I love the richness of the imagery-- powerful metaphors written in the code language of the time; written to encourage persecuted people to persist.

Berserk

quote:

"In that sense, the prophecy of Revelation is already  fulfilled and this casts doubt on attempts to seek future fulfillment in our time. "

 

Wonderful.....I've heard this too....it makes me happy
 

 

That's your common sense, trying to kick it's way out of the room you locked it up in.

crazyheart,

 

Some words and some types of writing are harder to talk on than others.

 

I did a series of sermons on the symbolism of Revelation. 

Hail from Isaiah and Trumpets from Exodus, Burning lamp, Star, Wormwood....

 

One thing that has always struck me about Revelation is his use of Hellenistic/Jovian imagery and language.

 

We see the trend toward Hellenism and away from Judeaism starting with Acts and steadily working it's way, especially in the Pauline writings, with it's culmination, IMHO in the Revelation of John.

 

Historically it parrallels an actual rise in Hellenism throughout the middle east at the time, and especially in Judea. It's fascinating to watch as Christianity evolves through the New Testament.

  Yes  I agree with this overview, and i, like others on this site,  have preached several sermons on the text - created a jazz liturgy - used in a theme presentation at conference.

The imagery in the book of revelations (play on reveal and revel?) is very STRANGE and BIZARRE.  Almost as if I wrote it ;3

 

So we even have strict Christian fundamentalists going "there can't be a 7-headed, 10-horned beast...hey, it's probably something else, like [insert nation]".

 

We have sombunall Protestants going "Hey, this is JUST a drug trip..."

 

Some very powerful images.

 

Well, here is a view, by Dr. Rick Strassman (author of The Spirit Molecule) on the Old Testament in particular.

 

Sit back, and enjoy the ride!

Hi stardust!

 

Holy crap! - gotta hit the highway but just had to respond to your post. 

 

 

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with you that Jesus brought God to a much wider audience.  And in regards to hell thought you might enjoy the below from my files.  Have a great evening!

 

 

"question = "1) Do the Jews believe in a purgatory (place of cleansing) reserved for their dead and necessary for their final admittance to heaven?"

yes. "Gehinnom (purgatory)

In Judaic tradition, eternal punishment does not exist. Gehinnom is not, therefore, a classic hell. It is a place of pain and punishment, but the soul will only stay there for a maximum of twelve months, and the purpose is purification, not mere punishment. In other words,it is a spiritual forge, where the imperfections of the soul are purged.

Often, the folklore describes Gehinnom in the primitive style of physical torment, fire and brimstone, but invariably, the Sages disagree with this unintellectual approach. The torment in Gehinnom is mental, and is caused by a state of anxiety and sadness over the sins the soul committed in life, and the distance and separation from God until purity is achieved again.

On Saturday, Gehinnom is emptied, and the souls are permitted one day of bliss and closeness to God. Without it, the souls could not survive the torment of Gehinnom. "

However the soul not necessarily goes to Gan Eden (Garden of Eden/Paradise) after.

"Reincarnation is entirely voluntary, and the soul can apply for this privilege at any time -- before or after Gehinnom (purgatory), anytime in Gan Eden -- until they have created a spiritual body for itself. The spiritual body is the last step before the ultimate goal -- total merging with God. "