Personally, what your friend thinks is true.  Human beings need something to rely on, to trust will be there when they die, so they've created something that is comforting and reliable. 

I say reliable because so many people believe in Heaven and all of it's components.  It's said there's truth in numbers right?  So since there are so many that believe in it, it's hard to believe it's wrong.

Anyways, I think it's absolutely true.  The thought of a "big black void" has discomforted people ever since the beginning of time.  Gods have been used to explain the unexplainable and comfort humans ever since there was people.  Like storms.  Humans used to believe that when the weather acted up, the gods were angry with them.  Because those people had no idea what the storms were, or why they happened, they made reasons relating to a higher being.

So there's my opinion.  I hope it related somewhat close to what you were talking about, I know I got a little off topic :D  Enjoy! 

There have been hundreds, maybe thousands of people who have had near death experiences, usually when their heart stopped during an operation or during an accident, sometimes for several minutes; and then were brought back to life.  Most of them describe meeting a friendly bright light that is very comforting. Sometimes they describe going through a dark tunnel to reach the light. Sometimes they are met by an individual that tells them that it is not yet their time and they must go back. Sometimes, during this time,  they even meet family member that have previously died.  

  Many of the new age thinkers believe that we are all part of God. We have become individuals to experince life with all its joys and sorrows.  We are like the waves of an ocean; when we reach the shore we become part of the ocean (God) again.

I have no doubt that there is something after death. Just exactly what it is we will probably have to wait to find out.

I think it is great that You Shadow, and Jamiedear are looking to answers to lifes big questions.    I was a lot older than you before I gave it much thought.

Pilgrim

Also, Shadow, I personally do not believe in hell. People can go through hell on earth when they are separated from the Spirit.  

Pilgrim

I would have to say truthfully that right now, I agree with your friend. There is just no evidence of any kind of life after death ( and I'm including spooks and spirits along with heaven and hell).  Logically, my mind tells me it's not very likely that there's anything after death, and that when we die we just stop existing. Granted, it's not a very comfortable belief, and I think it's true that it's very hard for humans to accept that someday, not only will we not be here, but we won't be anywhere. It is also very hard to contemplate that when our loved ones die, we will never see them again.  At the same time, it is oddly comforting because it means that "there is nothing to fear but fear itself"- that it is the process of dying which holds the terrors. I think death is likely just the absence of all consciousness, like before we were born.

Having just a void after death, begs the question of why? Why should we have been given life? Why were we given brains and minds to only better the here and now? Only to serve humanity for the immediate here and now so that they may slip into oblivion with greater knowledge? Truthfully it does not make sense to me that we are not being prepared for something greater than that.

I was taught that you do not operate on the basis of being rewarded but because it is the right thing to do - if you are rewarded for it well all the better.

I have, and will continue to, believe that we can create heaven or hell on earth.  That to focus on the reward after life ignores what can be achieved, or worse what is ignored, in life.

I have no guarantee that there is anything after this life, but I can guarantee that what I do during it can make a difference not just to myself but those around me.  If there is a subsequent reward in an afterlife, well all the better.

LB

I sent my soul through the invisible,
some letter of that afterlife to spell;
and by and by my soul returned to me
and answered, "I myself am Heav'n and Hell

Omar al-Khayyami (1048-1122)

ShadowxXxDweller

Welcome! C'mon in and beat the drums with us awhile. We've quite an orchestra ! There's a treasury of knowledge on the WC  so I know you're sure to find  whatever it is you're seeking.  I recommend the WC as being one of the best on the world wide web. We've got it all ! There's something for everyone. Your profile says you like animals that kill.  I'm not sure we're killers but we've got big sharp teeth and we can hunt and run pretty fast .  That's a start, eh?

I had a talk with an old tree last winter. It was in an awful state having lost all of its   pretty  green leaves. It was grey, old and bare, really looking like it was on its last legs. No matter how many hugs I gave it, it wouldn't stop crying. We didn't meet again until the spring and what a transformation had taken place. It was full of new buds, new energy ,and laughing so hard ! Such pride I've never seen before in my life. "Look at me. Look at me. I'm alive....!"  So I think it may be that only after death will we truly lift up our arms, soar on the wind, and really begin to live !

Greetings!

Well, ShadowxXxDweller, I guess anything is possible.  Even what is to me my most strongest belief is not necessarily the reality of how things are going to be.  I do not know the reality, but someday I will.  For now, I can only through research, reading, studying, and imaging, come up with what I think the afterlife will be like and will hold.

I believe there is something after our physical death here on earth.  I believe that death is the death of our physical body, but our spiritual body or our soul, lives on.  I am limited in my human understanding of exactly how this takes place and what it it will look like.  I name the place where my soul will continue on as heaven.  I believe my soul will continue on in God's presence for eternity.

I continually am challenged in my understanding of heaven and hell.  At one time I believed that there would be those that would spend eternity in heaven with God and some that would spend eternity in hell outside of God's presence.  Today, I am in place where my understanding that heaven is still a place where our souls will spend eternity with God, but my understanding of hell has changed.  Or perhaps it is my understanding of God that has changed.  In a book I read recently the author's portrayance of God was compared to an earthly parent, that no matter how much their child had hurt them, or done terrible things, that that earthly parent still could not send their precious child to a place called hell.  I like to think of God like that.

As a christian, my personal belief is that Jesus is the one who has stood in my place and has taken the blame, or paid the penalty, for the things I have done that would separate me from, or hurt God.   I recognize that others of different belief systems have different thoughts as to how one is made right with God.

Hope, peace, joy, love . . .

Heaven and Hell are real literal places. If you believe in Jesus to save you from Hell, God will freely give you the gift of salvation, you will have eternal life now, and you will go to Heaven. If you don't trust in Jesus to save you, you will spend eternity in Hell. Others here may try to give you all kinds of new age universalist ideas about the way things work. I invite you to find out the truth by reading the Bible.

Hello shadowxXxdweller.......God bless you........

I am a serious believer of an afterlife....and that is why here ...I do the best I can each day to be the best person I can be....the bible teaches the afterlife in both testaments....to me heaven is life with God and hell is life without God....we have the free will to choose which one we would like to have...

Although I am in no hurry to leave this world .....I look forward to a world after here...where we will finally be redeemed.....sin perfected.....life with no sin.....oh how I look forward to that...just to be the best I can.....awesome it will be awesome......the beauty here on this world is so awesome ..it overwhelms me sometimes...to look at the beautiful sunrises...over a lake..clear and still drifthing steam coming up into the air with the sun peaking up over the trees in the distance........Awesome God we serve....I watched this just the other morning ...all over the world the beauty is outstanding....the different colors of the birds...the different sizes..the beautiful trees that clean the air....the flowers that bloom in all different colors and sizes also....

If this world that was created by God is so wonderous ...just imagine the next...the bible tells us that this world is only a shadow of heaven......when I use my imagination....it just cannot comprehend what is waiting.....a world where there is no sin...no sorrow..no death, no health problems....we will be able to walk for miles and not get tired...we will be able to climb mountains....swim in crystal clear lakes....see to the bottom at everything there...wow what a great creator we have.....

We will be able to once again unite with all our loved ones...my grandparents, mom and dad...uncles, aunts, friends who have gone on before us....we will be able to meet all of the old and new testament leaders, prophets, judges, hero's, preachers ...oh what a life that will be..

But my most awesome thing that awaits me is to meet My Lord and Savior in person....to have Him talk to me and to spend time with me in Person..and how I will eternally thank Him for what He has done for me here and of course there....

The bible tells us we are to inherit heaven and earth and that we will be involved in these things with God.....I believe what we learn here will be used to teach others somehow...I know all of what I am now , will be used,  for God uses all things for His Purpose....

We will have the whole universe to discover....this is what is waiting for me ...and when my day comes to pass over to heaven......I pray I will be full of life....full of joy...and full of excitement...for then the Glory of the Lord will be revealed in full.....Awesome God we serve....

I believe if we are going to have faith to get us through this world.....we must also have faith to believe in the world to come.....I know there is so much more .....more then what is here...hard to believe.....Gods promises are real.........like God says our thoughts are not His thoughts....His are Universal....Cosmic....Huge.....

I pray God continues to give me what I need in this life and that I will continue to serve Him to the best of my will.....but I also look forward to the Glory that will be revealed in Heaven.....

Praise Jesus, He is the Way, the Truth, the Light..

IJL;bg

What makes you so sure that they're all there?

What makes you so sure that they're not?

So if you don't believe in Jesus, you go to Hell? Well, in that case, Hell must be overflowing with Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, etc. I simply cannot believe this.

lol! Well said Namaste.

"Religion, opium for the people! To those suffering pain, humiliation, illness, and serfdom, it promised a reward in afterlife. And now we are witnessing a transformation. A true opium of the people is a belief in nothingness after death, the huge solace of thinking that for our betrayals, greed cowardice, murders we are not going to be judged. The Marxist creed has now been inverted. The true opium of modernity is the belief that there is no God, so that humans are free to do precisely as they please."

From "The Discreet Charm of Nihilism" by Czeslaw Milosz

Shadow: In which religious system were you brought up?

I'd like to explore a different angle from Shadow's original post. You said that "If you're good you go to heaven...".  What, pray tell, is "good"? What could that possibly mean? Does it mean not breaking the 10 commandments? What about all the other laws in the Old Testament? Too many to ever keep....? Jesus said the most important commandment was to love God with all your heart, mind and soul. Who the heck can do that 24/7/365? And the second, he said, was just like it: "love your neighbour as yourself". Who is your neighbour? A lawyer asked this of Jesus and Jesus told the story of the "good Samaritan". So....your neighbour is actually your enemy. Do we love our neighbours 24/7/365? I don't think that's possible. Is not the starving child in Africa our neighbour? I think so. I dunno about you, but I go to bed stuffed full of chicken and cream at night while these children die of starvation.

My point is, no one is good. As a Christian, I believe that Jesus came to earth to teach and show us that very thing....that God is grace. God does not punish us for not being good. In fact, NO ONE is "good".

Therefore the only thing I can conclude (contrary to what some more conservative Christians have already said on this thread) is that I am saved, and you are saved, and so is everyone else who is not "good"...which is everyone. That, to me, is the "Good News" or "Gospel" of Jesus Christ. Any other exclusionary or judgmental "gospel" which damns some people to hell for not believing the right thing I do not believe is of Christ.

LoveJoy wrote: "...I am saved, and you are saved, and so is everyone else who is not "good"...which is everyone. That, to me, is the "Good News" or "Gospel" of Jesus Christ. Any other exclusionary or judgmental "gospel" which damns some people to hell for not believing the right thing I do not believe is of Christ."

You speak with confidence of the reliability of certain biblical passages, ie. the Ten Commandments, Christ's greatest command, the story of the Samaritan, etc. Yet allegedly you have also overlooked numerous other biblical passages. The same Christ who commands us to love our enemies also said: "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Again, the same Christ who said "for God so loved the world..." follows up immediately within the next verses "He who does not believe stands condemned already, because he has not believed in the One whom God has sent."

Tough verses indeed. But if one wants to reject them, they must also reject the rest of scripture as equally unreliable; otherwise it is based on mere wishful thinking. A biblical case simply cannot be made for the latter part of your statement.

LoveJoy wrote: "As a Christian, I believe that Jesus came to earth to teach and show us that very thing....that God is grace. God does not punish us for not being good. In fact, NO ONE is "good". "

What is Jesus recorded as saying of his mission to earth in the gospels? "For the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Your assertion that "no one is good" echoes Paul's teaching in Romans 3 that indeed no one is good. But he is going somewhere with this. He goes on to teach that "the wages of sin is death", and that the price of our sin must be paid for, (as Christ said was his mission). The price, Paul goes onto say, has been paid through Christ's redemptive act of dying for our sins.

Not all people choose to believe this however. What you are ultimately claiming is that people will not be held accountable for their choices regarding Jesus Christ, and thus Christ's death saves all people, even against their will. You started by following Paul's teaching, but you did not follow up on it.

Picking and choosing certain passages of the bible is an inconsisent practice and will only trap a person in the end. Indeed, in the name of consistency one is safer discounting the entirety of the biblical texts. People should not disregard scriptures simply on the basis that they are 'uncomfortable' or 'offensive', because if something is true in reality it must convict our will at some point.

Geo, you have a clear understanding of atonement theology, specifically substitutionary atonement and that is commendable. You base your theology on a particular understanding of Scriptures, and Biblical interpretation. The thing is, we can argue all night and still never agree. While I, too, greatly value the Scriptures, I do not value them in the same way as you do. I don't need to take every word in them and believe it to be literally true. The United Church is partly Methodist in its background and it was Wesley who brought forward what we now call the "Weslyan quadrilateral" which is actually four sources of authority, held in equal value. They are:

• Scripture
• Tradition
• Reason
• Experience

Let me say it again: equal value. So while you hold up Scripture as your one and only source of authority, I am holding up all four of the above as equal sources of authority. Therefore we will not, cannot, ever agree. Because you will use Scripture to argue something that my "reason" tells me makes no sense. Or that my experience tells me makes no sense. And to me, it's not reasonable to suggest that any sort of "good news" would damn 95% of the earth to hell. Just as this made no sense to Namaste.

So hopefully we can agree to disagree, or at least see one another's theology through a different lens.

In the Apology, Socrates talks about the afterlife like this. He says that there are two possibilities for the afterlife. The first possibility is that after death is a dreamless sleep (nothingness), which he said would be a blessing because we all know how great it feels to have a good night's sleep. The second possibility is that we go to another plane of existence where everyone goes, which is an even greater blessing because we get to see all the great people who have existed and we get to share wisdom with them and become even better people. He said this after he was sentenced to death.

I don't believe in an afterlife and when I think about me dying, I don't think I'll actually care because I'll be dead. I find this to be a very positive way to look at death because it makes me appreciate life here, because this is the only life we truly know that we have.

Which also reminds me of a very important fact about the afterlife: nobody actually knows what happens! You can have your own opinion on what happens, but nobody can ever claim to knowing for sure (dead people might be able to if they weren't already dead).

Lovejoy wrote  My point is, no one is good. As a Christian, I believe that Jesus came to earth to teach and show us that very thing....that God is grace. God does not punish us for not being good. In fact, NO ONE is "good".

 and this

The United Church is partly Methodist in its background and it was Wesley who brought forward what we now call the "Weslyan quadrilateral" which is actually four sources of authority, held in equal value. They are: 

• Scripture
• Tradition
• Reason
• Experience

To which I say thank you for expressing in the first what I think is a fundamental truth and explaining Wesley in a way even I can understand.

LB

Do all the good you can,
By all the means you can,
In all the ways you can,
In all the places you can,
At all the times you can,
To all the people you can,
As long as ever you can.

John Wesley

LoveJoy: So now what we have going on is that not only are select aspects of Paul's teaching being hijacked, but there is also a misuse of Wesley's teachings. Like I said before, this type of thinking only traps a person. It is easy to see through what is going here. Allow me to demonstrate:

Wesley called himself "a man of one book". He believed in the authority of scripture as a basis upon which all doctrine must be derived, which could not be divorced from Orthodox Christian Tradition. The elements of tradition, reason, and experience within his Quadrilateral were always subject to scripture, because as he says, only there is the Word of God "so far as it is necessary for our salvation." (From 'The Book of Discipline of the United Methodist Church).

And what did Wesley believe about salvation? That God's grace is indeed extended to all people, but that people are justified only on the basis of their faith.

What you are positing is not equal authority within the Wesleyan Quadrilateral - which the man who invented the doctrine does not even claim himself - but that in cases where we don't like what is being taught by scripture, our 'reason' actually becomes a higher authority than divine scripture, which clearly teaches that Christ's death on the cross was a sacrifice of atonement. Any later 'experiences' will not contradict what is written in the original scriptures, but must be evaluated by them. One must ask, what is the motive behind people who seek to discount scripture when it calls them to humbly accept their reality as human beings? All of this 'picking and choosing' essentially puts the practitioner on equal footing with God himself...yet are we not mere humans?

Just because you and Namaste (was that an appeal to popularity?) don't find it reasonable that people will end up in hell (and '95%' is a slight exaggeration) doesn't mean that reality will effectively change just for you because you don't want to believe it. Many other people in this world find the doctrine of hell perfectly reasonable, let alone what the writers of the NT teach.

If your stuck in the middle of the road and a mack truck is bearing down on you, your choice to believe that it is simply not there will not prevent you from being smeared.

Hello everyone God bless you......

Great answers......I love the love, wisdom and knowledge on wondercafe...that is why I am addicted to this site lol lol......

match3......killer........I am a firm believer in God , Jesus and the Holy Spirit.....the scriptures tells us these things.....but I am sure of my family and friends who have passed over because God is a God of Love , Mercy and Forgiveness......I believe that because He Loves me ....He will give me my hearts desires.....here and in heaven....and there is nothing I want more then to have all my loved ones who passed over to Love God.....amen ...it is done....faith is the answer to all our beliefs........hope for the coming eternity.......

In confirming faith I say these things.....Praise the Lord God ...amen and amen.....

LoveJoy: "While I, too, greatly value the Scriptures, I do not value them in the same way as you do. I don't need to take every word in them and believe it to be literally true.The United Church is partly Methodist in its background and it was Wesley who brought forward what we now call the "Weslyan quadrilateral" which is actually four sources of authority, held in equal value."

Yes, this is a handy little system, isn't it? When we don't like a certain passage because it is 'offensive', all we have to do is discount scripture at that point, in the name of a certain notion of 'continued revelation' - akin to such doctrines of say, Mormonism. Instead, we are indeed biblical literalists when it is convenient to the doctrines which we have confabulated; but when confronted with a scriptural truth we don't like, trusting one's own feelings becomes a trump card over what is written in scripture.

The first of the Ten Commandments, which you also used above, commands humans not to bow to any other gods or commit idolatry. Yet when you create this 'god' to suit your own desires, which is often touted a 'God of Love', are you not committing idolatry?

Second of all, you wrote (regarding the Wesleyan Quadrilateral): "Let me say it again: equal value. So while you hold up Scripture as your one and only source of authority, I am holding up all four of the above as equal sources of authority."

If God gives divine authority to the scriptures, where does the authority for the other three sources come from? Your feelings? Wesley? The UCC? Indeed, as we have already seen, Wesley believes that the other three are always subject to scripture - not the other way around.

There will be some Jews in Heaven for sure. People had faith before the time that Jesus came to Earth, and God will credit that to them as righteousness. The prime example of people like this being Abraham. There are also messianic Jews today, who have accepted that Jesus is their long-awaited messiah, and have chosen to have faith in him.

There are, however, many Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. in Hell. These people have chosen to reject God's free offer of salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord. It is only just, then, that God sends them to where they want to spend eternity.

I don't believe that Jews, Muslims, Buddhists etc have chosen to reject God's offer of salvation. I believe that they just see another path to God and salvation, which IMO is quite possible. And what about the people who have never heard of Jesus Christ? I simply cannot believe that if they're never given the option that they will go to Hell.

I believe that no matter what religion we choose to belong to, we are all on a path to the Divine. For me, I've chosen the path of Jesus Christ. Through him, and in striving to be more like him, I become closer to God. But others may have chosen a different path. I do not think they're wrong. I believe that ultimately all paths lead to the same place: God.

 Jamiedear: A few hundred years ago, you could say that about the Earth being flat.

waterfall: How is a static heaven or hell greater than an ever-changing, dynamic world that we ourselves shape?

match3: Everyone else here makes actual arguments for their beliefs - or when not doing so at least has the courtesy not to claim something really absolute like you just did.  You should follow their example.  Dude, I haven't even seen you quote scripture like Geo yet.

Also, did you just diss bygraceiam's mom?  Them's fighting words... 

Geo: Oh your God, I was JUST ABOUT to post that quote!  It's really interesting.  I found it in a newspaper column by a right-wing loon with whom I disagree on pretty much everything, but still.

Also, before you go making assumptions about Shadow, not everyone was even brought up in a religious system at all.  I wasn't.  I kinda envy all those atheists who started out in religious families, cuz they can claim so much logical superiority over the likes of me who go with what they've been taught all their lives.

Also also, did you realize that the 'mack truck' argument you just made is an argument AGAINST pure faith, which seems to be all you're running on?  

match3frog: It still seems pretty arbitrary that believing a particular book is the primary or only factor in deciding whether someone is infinitely rewarded or sent to some sort of eternal Guantanamo Bay.  

ShamanWolf wrote: "did you realize that the 'mack truck' argument you just made is an argument AGAINST pure faith, which seems to be all you're running on?"

It seems to be all I'm running on? LOL =)

Namaste wrote: "I believe that ultimately all paths lead to the same place: God."

Friend, this statement is very problematic. I think the reason that people so readily adopt this position in a post-modern and pluralistic society is because it is an axiom which has been stated and re-stated to the point where it seems to be common sense, not to mention politically correct. Thus anyone who deviates from it is stigmatized as arrogant, dangerous, etc.

But the claim turns out be ignorant, and even hypocritical. If one is actually educated in what adherents of these religions (for whom they're speaking for and clumping together) actually believe, one will find that they are irreconcilable. For example:

Christians believe that Jesus is the only way to God because he was the only one who dealt with the sins of humankind: "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12). Jews do not believe that Jesus even was the Messiah who was to come. Muslims do not believe that the real Christ died on the cross, and held that he was only a great prophet...but that the revelation of Muhammad (in the Holy Qur'an) is the 'final revelation' - the only truth of God. Some Hindus believe in more than 330 million gods, where others hold a more 'pantheistic' understanding of the universe. Mahayana Buddhists do not even believe in God or any sort of divine, let alone the adherents within the belief system of atheism.

Also, consider the implications of differing beliefs in an afterlife. The resurrection of Christ, which the whole of the Christian faith hinges upon, could not be true if in reality 'reincarnation' was the reigning system, as is taught by many eastern religions. And among eastern religions, there exists no universal understanding of how reincarnation manifests itself. Not only this, but the karma/reincarnation process is cyclical in nature, where as in the major monotheistic religions people have one kick at the cat, whose decisions will ultimately dictate their final destiny to one of only two places.

So we find that the claim "all paths lead to God" begs the question, "which God?"

This is not the only reason this claim is problematic. It also assumes that these differing doctrinal beliefs are unimportant. Ironically, it becomes another doctrinal belief in itself. It holds a specific view of God which seems humble, but is actually considered to be more enlightened than what adherents of the other religions believe and/or what their sacred writings teach. Thus it does the very thing it forbids in others.

I could argue Wesley all day, but I have no energy for that, frankly. And I'm on my way out of wondercafe for personal (time, and addiction) reasons. So I don't want you to think I've abandoned this argument for some other reason. I'll just leave you with this one thing:

          The God I know in Jesus Christ does not damn anyone to hell ~ period.

Hi ShadowxXxDweller:

You asked THE question that was bound to bring out the arrogance in us all. Stardust is the only response, after reading the string of them, that I can, in any way relate to.

We all make our choice as to how we want to envison life after death. The likely truth is that none of us can know. We can choose to worship the Bible, Nature or ourSelves in the search for the answer, but this mystery remains with our Source. Since we were somehow created, forever evolving to a higher level of complexity, it is obvious that we would have some of the stuff of our Creator within, which causes us to YEARN to answer this question.

Jesus had his own belief, once he had chosen to be the Messiah. He claimed that God was a compassionate God, like a Father, not the warlord of the Torah. Yet, his metaphoric God also reflected the kind of Father of the times, who was also willing, somehow to punish those who did not know Him to eternal Hell. Yet we are told "He died for our sins". Somehow we are both forgiven and punished. Go for this if it makes sense.

Personnally, I look to the world around me and how it works. Things die and produce seeds and suckers, corms, bulbs and rhizomes, etc. Science proclaims that "energy cannot be destroyed in a chemical change". We witness people like the Great Kreskin, who seem to have talents of reading into the future with ease and no magic. It leads me to CHOOSE to believe that we live on in some form, likely spiritual, but not necessarily. I CHOOSE to believe in a compassionate Source that is only personal in that it dwells within each living thing. We are its STEWARDS. We are here to look after creation and indeed co-create with the ongoing evolution of this marvelous world. As we genuinely participate to do our best to sow Love and care, Compassion and forgiveness, so we will evolve after we die. It sounds a bit like the idea of 'Karma" but I don't hold onto any specific believe system around life-after-death. I do not live for the rewards of death. I see death and an extension of Life, not better or worse. If you fear death, you go the fundamentalist route and believe in Heaven and Hell as real places, and the Devil as (somehow) a powerful enemy that God has let loose to play with our Souls. If you TRUST in GOD, you might leave this all up to the Creator, and trust that whatever becomes of you, it will be fair and just.

Keep in touch with the Sprit that resides within. Talk to this Source and try to discern its intensions for you. Follow your conscience. Take from all of the great prophets, leaders and great men & women who speak to this. Consider all interpretations. Then CHOOSE one and embrace it. That is all that is expected of you. In the meantime, may your Life be full of JOY.

Well LumbyLad, that is what I do best. Ask tough questions and tick people off. ^-^ Thank you for your answers everyone! They are all wonderfull, and more are greatly appreciated!

Amen!!

LoveJoy says it well in the traditional sense as I understand it too. When I breathe in the Joy of Spring, the Comfort of Summer, the Hope of Fall and the Anticipation of Winter; when I look at how the chaos of the universe has become understood as order, more and more as science progresses; when I look at the paradoxes that life and language shows us and when I go deep inside and dip into the Spirit I believe is the part of THE CREATOR in me, I KNOW what Jesus must have discovered and been willing to die for - that "my God is an awesome God" and it/he/she holds ALL of these sacred creations as blameless, yearning for us to assist in creation as we yearn to discover the essence of our Source. You are as immortal as your Creator. Fear not. Amen and amen.

Kreskin?! He's a magician, an nothing but. My own fathe was a magician, an he knew Kreskin pesonally. They use to auition fo CBC shows at the same time. My fathe coul o just about all of the vey same ticks that Kreskin is famous fo.

And here is yet another version of Heaven and Hell.

There is no Hell.

Everyone goes to "heaven" when they die.

While they are there they experience what they believe in and they think over their past life. This is how Hitler and Mother Teresa can go to the same "place".

But they don't stay in "heaven" forever.

After a while they decide to be reborn and live another life. Hopefully they are better and learn more in each new life. Eventually, after many lives, they become like Jesus and do not need to be born again. Then they truly are in Heaven.

Will Hitler and Saddam and all the other bad guys ultimately get to Heaven?

Yes.

LoveJoy wrote: "The God I know in Jesus Christ does not damn anyone to hell ~ period."

That is fine - if you are okay with the God you know not being the God of the Bible.

But I would like to unpack the meaning of this statement. First, you do believe in an afterlife, but that it only consists of one place - heaven, correct? Are you saying that all people, regardless of whether or not they choose God, will be effectively forced to spend eternity with him? What about our prized free-will? And what about murderers and rapists who scorned God in their lives? Will they be back-slappin' up in heaven with God and all of their victims? I am only asking because I am curious of the implications of your belief, and I do not seek to misrepresent it.

Friends, what makes you think that God is love? When you look at the world around you, do you see a God of love? How about taking history into account. Or looking at the other religious texts of the world? In them you will find no ruling attributes that 'God is love'. It is only in the Bible that this idea truly originates. But this same Bible also tells us that God is a God of justice who will put everything right in the end. Thus, the belief that God is only a 'God of love" is merely an act of wishful thinking, since it finds no support in the Bible let alone any other religious texts, and there is arguably no evidence of it in the natural order.

I think what is being utterly missed here are the concepts of sin, free will, and justice, and even how people end up in hell. What is being perpetrated here is a popular caricature of God 'casting' people into hell kicking and screaming which I believe misunderstands the nature of evil and the nature of God's grace. Not only this, but when one takes away the traditional meaning of the cross of Christ, one does not even have a 'God of Love'.

Question, Geo, what if those you mentioned above are "repentant" murderers and rapists who scorned God in their lives, but like the thief on the cross at the very last minute changed . . . will they be back-spappin" up in heaven with God and all their victims.  Just curious what point you are making here - that they won't make it to heaven, or that is would be unthinkable for them to be in heaven with their victims?

Hope, peace, joy, love . . .

Beloved: Yes it was a tricky statement, but it was not a statement of my own belief per se, of which I was trying to make a point, because as I asked, I wanted to know how these folks above would reconcile this concept. The statement in and of itself is often used as a reminder that, especially if it were to occur personally to someone, most people would demand that justice was served.

Note also that I referred to 'murderers and rapists who scorned God'. Were they to repent of their actions they would be repentant, in which case I believe God would forgive them. But many people scorn God until the day they die and do not repent. Yet, this also is not the point I am trying to make.

The issue here is that this whole concept of repentance which you and I are now referring to is being utterly missed by many in this thread; those who say 'all will be in heaven', regardless of repentance from sin or not, I believe underestimate the problem of sin. However, we are seeing that the notion of sin and Christ's atonement of it is rejected as being important because it 'offends' too many people, so as a result, Holy Scripture 'is no longer authoritative' at that point. The funny thing is, I think if Jesus were to anonymously post here on the WC about himself, most people would use that little function at the bottom of the post to 'flag as offensive', as they have done with what most of the NT writers have written about his teachings. =)

Geo, you offer so much to talk about. Let me go back a few days...

I believe this to be a very accurate quote and well said. We've lead ourselves into a purely rational and purely atheistic society where not only does religion have no place but even the belief of the human soul is discounted in our society. I wonder at times how much of a mental cul-de-sac we've lead ourselves into. A true debtor can rationalize any point with very good arguments as why that point should be taken over another. In this way the mind can and does mislead. But don't get me wrong, we need our mental faculties as much as our emotional and our obvious physical attributes. But it may very well be that the the mind is not the end all to our being. This is why, I believe, the ancient sages of India said that the "Mind is the slayer of the real", and that the 'real' exists beyond mind. This is, I believe, where the light of the intuition comes into play. Which is that straight and narrow path running right down the centre of the polar opposites and therefore expressing the third leg of a triangle. And triangles are the building blocks of our spiritual and physical Universe. But I digress, let me continue..

So why is it that the weight of heaven and hell and all that these two abodes imply are always and solely based on believing or not believing? Does believing not lead to wisdom and wisdom to God? Would it not seem more wise to think that "what you do in your life" would be so much more influential than "what you believe in your life?". Wasn't this the message that Christ tried to tell us, to know the truth and the truth will set us free?

It seems that much idealism comes from the belief that "God gives divine authority to the scriptures". I personally have no doubt that most if not all of our ancient scriptures were inspired, formulated and possibly even written down personally by one whose has either become God-aware or is At-One with God, but couldn't it be possible that parts of these scriptures were either misconstrued, misunderstood or simply mistranslated over time. We misunderstand certain words in our modern life all the time. The word "eternity" or the phrase "end of the world" meant something completely different to the ancient authors. Both of these terms, I believe mean either the duration of or the end of a cycle in time. (see http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/EternityExplained.html)

So you keep these books yourself Geo? Interesting. Judging others has been a trap for us for a long time. You can honestly only make a claim like this in order to justify your devotion to your idealism. You are not, as far as I know, the harbinger of judgement for the human race. And if you are, then I do apologize, please forgive me. 
 

Could it not be that Christ and the resurrection represent the liberation from the seemingly eternal wheel of birth and rebirth? 

So you're saying that the static 'one kick at the cat' process makes more sense then the karmic 'sow as your reap' form of cyclic manifestation?

I've personally always assumed that Christ was all about Love and Service and so when you ask "When you look at the world around you, do you see a God of love", I can't help but answer yes and no. It depends where you look. The news of the wars in the Middle East and the addictions and abuse of our own streets does indeed say to me that we have turned away from love. But we do show love to our fellow man and woman every time we help a stranger in the street or we send our doctors to heal across the borders. It's going to be up to us to manifest peace in this world. We may have the way shown to us and that path may be steep and rocky but there are no helicopters to heaven. We are going to have to walk this path ourselves and in so doing bring an end to wars and personal deprivation.

Your claim that justice and judgement will reign is, I believe, a result of the very cyclic nature you denied above. Karma is the eastern term for sowing what you reap or cause and effect and is a result of energy in motion. Energy is either in a downward motion, a point of equilibrium (i.e. the apex of the pendulum) or it's in a upward motion. These are basic and fundamental physical laws. It's only when we start reaching for the more esoteric concepts of quantum physics do we see that even these laws have their limits and thier domain. Perhaps Christ, the manifestation of Love, was the first quantum mechanic of our world? 

Neo: Hah, hopefully people don't start mixing you and I up, as I have been mixed up with "GEOrge" in the past.

You wrote: "Would it not seem more wise to think that "what you do in your life" would be so much more influential than "what you believe in your life?". Wasn't this the message that Christ tried to tell us, to know the truth and the truth will set us free?"

What one does in the world may in fact be more influential in the world itself, but we are told in scripture that it is not what one does that merits salvation. Instead, if we truly believe God and seek to obey Him, our good works will be evidence of our salvation. Salvation, we are told in scripture, comes "by grace through faith, not by works." The writers of the gospels have Christ saying:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

"The work of God is this: to believe in the One whom he has sent."

Neo wrote: "So you keep these books yourself Geo? Interesting. Judging others has been a trap for us for a long time. You can honestly only make a claim like this in order to justify your devotion to your idealism. You are not, as far as I know, the harbinger of judgement for the human race. And if you are, then I do apologize, please forgive me. "

I have no idea where you found this, but this was NOT my quote that you were referring to.

Neo wrote: "Could it not be that Christ and the resurrection represent the liberation from the seemingly eternal wheel of birth and rebirth?"

There is no evidence any Holy writ for such a belief.

Neo wrote: "So you're saying that the static 'one kick at the cat' process makes more sense then the karmic 'sow as your reap' form of cyclic manifestation?"

I do not believe you were really reading what I was communicating. My point in comparing these two was simply to show that there are major, irreconcilable differences in the understanding of the concept of the 'afterlife' between different belief systems, so as to show the error of clumping them all together as essentially being one and same, or of assuming that both systems could be going on simultaneously in ultimate reality.

Neo wrote: "The One God, as far as Humanity is concerned. And from this One God, the ONE GOD, and from this, the ONE, etc., etc. The idea that our little Earth is at the centre of attention of the ultimate Creator of the Whole Universe is an arrogant concept indeed."

Yet there is no universal consensus on who that One God is, or that there is only One God, or even that that God exists at all. And the 'arrogant' concept that this earth and its inhabitants are the pinnacle of God's creation in the universe originates from scripture.

Neo wrote: "I've personally always assumed that Christ was all about Love and Service and so when you ask "When you look at the world around you, do you see a God of love", I can't help but answer yes and no."

While I agree that there are agents of peace working for good in this world, when I open the morning newspaper I can't help but notice all of the corruption, abuse, despair, oppression etc and claim that the world is inherently a good place. Though you may see works of God in the world (which I am not discounting), you will also see that we as humans have really messed things up. No one will argue that. It is this very reason that atheists often appeal to for support for their belief that if God existed, he would not be allowing all of this to occur.

Neo wrote: "Your claim that justice and judgement will reign is, I believe, a result of the very cyclic nature you denied above. Karma is the eastern term for sowing what you reap or cause and effect and is a result of energy in motion."

First Neo, as I said above, I did not deny the cyclical system - I compared it with another system. My belief about them was/is not my case in point. And second, that justice and judgment will reign is not my claim, but again, originates in scripture.

lol...neo and geo...

As a Muslim I feel obliged to put my two cents in.  We don't view the final revelation of the Holy Qur'an brought to use by the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as the only truth of the one God. We view it as the most complete, and final truth, but not the only truth.  Muslims recognize that the Torah and the Gospels are messanges from God (albeit a little corrupted over time/translation/schisms...).

I agree that God is not just a loving God.  But, one of the 99 most beautiful names of God in the Qur'an (a non-biblical religious text)  is "The most loving".  So at least one of God's attributes is Love unbridled.

Assalaam Alaiykum

-Omni

Omni wrote: "We don't view the final revelation of the Holy Qur'an brought to use by the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as the only truth of the one God. We view it as the most complete, and final truth, but not the only truth."

Right, so it is the most true truth. And this truth holds that the real Jesus didn't die one the cross, which is my point - the fact that the NT and the Qur'an disagree fundamentally on this point...a major indication that Christianity and Islam are irreconcilably different. (Compare Surah 4:157-159 with 1 Corinthians 15:3-7)

Omni wrote: "I agree that God is not just a loving God.  But, one of the 99 most beautiful names of God in the Qur'an (a non-biblical religious text)  is "The most loving".  So at least one of God's attributes is Love unbridled."

Yes sir.

I guess I honestly do you owe you a humble apology Geo. (funny, considering I was going to apologize to you if in fact you were the harbinger of judgement)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the problem I have with the interpretation of the quote "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." is that it does not actually say that whosoever believes and only believes in Him shall not perish. So my comment above "Does believing not lead to wisdom and wisdom to God?" applies to this quote. 

As you've probably figured out from my other posts, I'm a big believer that Christ came to this world to show us the way through love and service and that each and every one of us will eventually, in time, come to the point where we will believe and then know and then eventually become One with God. Can we do this all in one single life, considering the inequities and life circumstances that we're faced with?
 

If your comment that "there is no evidence any Holy writ for such a belief" in regards to reincarnation is true then it only because the obvious references been taken out of the Bible by scholars who probably thought at the time they were doing a good thing. There are still, however, several remnants here and there in the Bible and a quick google of "reincarnation bible" shows that this topic is hotly discussed in both new and old Testaments.

"But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not
recognize him…" Then the disciples understood that he was
talking to them about John the Baptist.   (Matt 17:12-13)

Neo: The points you raise about adjoining of reincarnation (which is different than incarnation) and Christianity, (which, in my view, are incompatible) could be discussed in a new thread. Perhaps you should start one?

Hello ShadowxXxDweller and welcome to WondderCafe.

I think that is a very common simplification of the understanding of heaven and hell.  One of the difficult things about simplification is that it doesn't always.

Sometimes in the attempt to make things clear nuance is lost and what results is not actually something that is clearer but something that is much less clear.

That might be true.  Of course, it might also be true that this thought is itself a human security blanket because it removes the need to examine one's self and ask tough questions about our own behaviour.

I think it exists as possibility.  It doesn't rule out another possibility which suggests that the overwhelming belief in something beyond death isn't actually founded in a fear of death so much as it is an awareness of something beyond what we routinely experience.

What I think eh?

You offered the invitation . . .

First off to start with your premise that heaven and hell are things that humans have some influence over.  I don't think so.  I've discussed my position on grace vs works elsewhere and don't want to derail this conversation by reopening the discussion here as well.

With respect to hell.

Hell, as an idea, is multi-layered.  The most visibly popular layer is the lake of fire with brimstone and sulphur and eternal torment.  Unfortunately the English word, like the English word love are translational choices and they do not always tell us what was going on in the original languages.

There are four separate Greek words which are translated into the English word love.  They are quite a bit different in meaning and to the Greek speaking audience they would understand that.  An English speaking audience will miss the nuance at play and that can greatly impact upon how we understand what is happening in scripture.

There are three separate Greek words which are translated into the English word hell.  They are also different in meaning and the Greek speaking audience would also understand that.  English readers miss the nuance.

The result is that every time we read the word hell in scripture (an English language translation) we are not talking about fire and brimstone.  Recent editions of English translations are doing a very good job of providing the nuance so we no longer get confused on the issue.

More often than not where the word "Hell" appears in an English translation the corresponding Greek or Hebrew terms are referring to the grave and they are speaking to a separation from life not a judgment of the kind of life one has lived.

Hell as the final abode of the damned is often pictured as a lake of fire.  Some will insist that it is mandatory that we accept this image as being literal.  I don't.  I believe that what is most often meant by "hell" as death means that there will be a separation made by God between the living and those who are unliving.  Whatever that means for those designated as unliving I am sure that a lake of fire would be more merciful than the reality.

On a personal level I don't spend a lot of time worrying about heaven or hell.  I will go where God determines I should go.  What I am doing and what I am about in the here and now that I have some control over.  Tomorrow?  Well I can plan for what I hope it will be like all the while knowing that other plans can trump mine.

On the whole I think that living right here, right now is a better use of my time than worrying about what life will be like later.

Grace and peace to you.

John

RevJohn:It was great to have you bring this discussion back to the person who asked it. I think you also shared some very wise ideas of where Hell comes from and what was meant by the word IN THOSE TIMES. Why we feel that what Jesus believed, and how Paul interpreted these to form a church, or how the Gospel writers stumbled over each other to sound consistent, should determine how we think/belief in our times is quite beyond me.

If you want to be SURE you don't go to Hell, spend a lot of time trying to make sense of the Bible (as God's word) and try to follow every dictum set down to Moses and Jesus as the word of God. You will find yourself frightend, confused and very INGENUOUS in your actions. You would need to reject homosexual behavior, but also leave the last row of your crops for the needy, because there is a LIST in Leviticus or 'rules' for you to do. Many fundamentalists, in the end, have to gloss over things to make sense of the whole Bible. I have never "Worshiped" the Bible as the word of God, nor have I perceived Jesus as any more "the son of God" that we are children of God. He was obviously a very special person, revolutionary and spokesman for a new order of Jewish religion that relied less on rules and regulations and focused more on the relationship with God, as a compassionate and forgiving God.

Was Jesus right in all ways? For the times, he likely gave his followers a new Hope, but also offered them a new way to "emerge". As for today, I rather doubt that he had any focus on us, except that his priniciples of loving our enemies might bring peace in the world for a long time. He obviously did not die in vain. A Christian movement sprang up, but the violence and misunderstanding of his message contintues to make us a poor representation of his words.

I agree with your final advice to ShadowxXxDweller. NOW is our time to live in a way that we feel is congruent with whatever we believe. Leave the hereafter to God. Trust in the Creator's views on his creations. If Jesus says, "Love your Enemy", how much more important it is to trust that God, in whatever form he/she/it may reveal itself after our death, will show the same mercy to his creations.

Ok, I won't read what has been said before this but I'll try to keep up...!! I have recently started to ask myself about this... Isn't the first thing that death could be would be that are sould just banishes? Well, think about it... Humans and animals are functionning the same way, we have a heart and a brain and everything... People say that when animal dies their soul just banishes and yes they most have some kind of soul. How can a living not have a soul? And if animals die that way, why not the same for us? If it's not this way for us then animals most not die that way... i just wonder... I don't want to worry about what happens after life though because life will end sooner than we would wish and then we will discover the truth. WE will know. But I don't mind a discussion as long as I don't get stressed and make a bunch of research on it... That's a waste of your life... Imagine this, someone that gives all its life on the research of Death and than he dies, naturraly.