Yes and yes...

Ditto.

Thought the version we use in VU # 959, rather than the traditional Olde Englyshe.  The sung version  seems to be very well received here.

No and no

 

No and no.

 

We pray it maybe thrice a year.

 

Our pastor says the important thing is pray in the same spirit as the prayer, not necessarily using the exact words from Scripture.

 

I can easily agree with him there. I generally prefer spontaneous prayer to scripted.

Yes, and maybe.

 

Seriously, I do not see why we "must" use it every weeek.   And yet it seems to be one of the unwritten liturgical rules in many places

Yes and yes.

For those who do use it weekly, where in the service do you place it?  Always the same place (traditionally to close the Prayers of the People or Pastoral Prayer in many places)? or do you move it around?

 

I have taken to putting it as part of the opening prayer, largely because then the younger set are still present for it.  However usually I move it on COmmunion Sundays to close teh Communion prayer.

I guess I'm no and no, but in my UU fellowship it's highly unlikely we'd use it as a prayer (we don't pray that much out of respect for our atheist/humanist members).

 

In the United Churches I've been to, including the one I grew up in, the answer would be yes to the former.

 

I don't miss it, though, and rather like Jae's pastor's attitude on the matter:

 

 

Mendalla

 

No and no.

a chant becomes just a chant. I do with more attention were paid to the meaning of it. i think it remarkable that it asks us to do only one thing. And i wish people would think more about that one thing, and all it means.

It's admittedly been a while but as far as I can reacall the Lord's Prayer was recited at some point during every service at every church I've ever attended.  And at the time it would have seemed very strange and the service would have felt incomplete without it. 

Opening prayer. Sometimes spoken, sometimes sung. And you're right, graeme - "as we forgive those who trespass against us." That would take care of a lot of our problems.

Yes, and yes.  Usually sung in my present church.  Usually in a modern paraphrase in my previous one.  My preference would be sung once a month, modern paraphrase once a month, and traditional two or three times a month.   It's usually after the prayers of the people, but I've seen it placed early in the service before the children go out. 

 

I like it. 

It is one thing that most of us know and can join in - even the illiterate, vision impaired, and poor readers.  We can say it with our eyes closed.  We can think about what we are saying without concentrating on reading from the bulletin or the screen. 

It joins us together - I can visit Anglican, RC, Presbyterian, and other UCC and feel a part of the gathering. 

 

I like the format.  I think it is well composed. 

I have no problem addressing God as Father (or as Creator, Parent, Mother, Holy One).  I have no problem with 'who are in heaven' - I don't think of heaven as far away, and/or up in the sky.  

I like the reminder that the kingdom is coming 'on earth' - here and now.

Give us this day our daily bread - I could write a sermon on what that means to me

Forgive us our debts - I think that the Presbyterians got that right.  Although in the UCC I say 'treaspasses', I think of debts, and the heavy burden debt placed on the peasants of Palestine, and the heavy burden it places on many people and societies today.  Yes, we need to pray for forgiveness of debt.

As we forgive our debtors - the requirement placed on us

Lead us not into temptation; deliver us from evil - again I can relate

And finally the praise, and trust.  

Yes, I like it.  A prayer we have used for 2000 years and still has meaning for me today.

 

 

Hi crazyheart,

 

 

Not every Sunday, every three out of four usually.

 

 

A Church service without wouldn't seem strange.  Many services without would.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi GordW,

 

 

I inherited most of the liturgy I use here at Waterford.  I made some changes.  One which I have not changed has been using the Lord's Prayer with the Children at the end of our time together.

 

We have our question/answer.story time and move into a group prayer which finishes with the Lord's Prayer.

 

We move the Children's time around very little though we will move other portions around quite a bit.  For example, in order to make it easier for children and Sunday School teachers to participate in the sacrament of the Lord's Supper we move the sacrament to the beginning of the service and move into our time with the Children immediately following.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

 

Thanks for pointing this out. I think this is one of the great benefits of the Lord's Prayer as well. Even members of churches that don't typically use the Lord's Prayer still know the Lord's Prayer. I think we sometimes dismiss that which we do repeatedly too easily as just "tradition" or "mechanical" without realizing that it does also point to unity and community. Again, thanks.

 

There is great wisdom and beauty in that prayer but we can only benefit from that if we are able to say it mindfully and be aware of what we are saying. If it's just an agenda item in the bulletin to be knocked off so we can move on, it may as well not be there. Singing it may help or hinder in this respect. Certainly, I could sing the version my UCCan used in my sleep but I don't think that draws me nearer to the meaning of the words.

 

During one period In my UU fellowship, we used to sing Carolyn McDade's "Spirit of Life" (a popular hymn with UUs in general) in the same place in every service, kind of as our Lord's Prayer. I love that hymn and it's deeply meaningful in so many ways but singing it week after week like that, it started to fade into the background a bit. I find it much more meaningful singing it maybe once a month as tends to happen now.

 

Mendalla

 

Hi Rev Steven --I would agree with you . That when Seeler Posted--------------------------It joins us together - I can visit Anglican, RC, Presbyterian, and other UCC and feel a part of the gathering.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------She got I believe the Idea ,or at least one of Jesus teaching, from the LORDS Prayer.. ( OUR FATHER)--The church of Jesus ,I believe was to be one . All them that would call on Him as Lord. We are family.

I get turned off at "our Father": it leaves out half of my genetic constitution, not to mention the rest of the universe. And the King James version (as one might reasonably expect) gets worse. I have to go burrowing into the intention to stay with it.

My rabbi friend and I used together, only left off as Jesus taught. He said it was a good jewish prayer.  Yes and Yes.  We used in the opening prayer because how else will children learn it.  Like many things some words represent a time period, so mother father can work, our creater - our lover, but given the language our father can work as in heaven.  I think we can understand poetry.  Which this is without getting caught up in language fights.

I think I would favour The Lord's Prayer as a regular feature of the service  - at a time when the children are there. But I would look for ways to reinforce its meaning.

I once used The Lord's Prayer as my text for the sermon - in much the way Rev. Davis suggests.  I think that, once or twice a year - and with reference to it in sermons on other topics - would be effective, and might make people more concious of its meaning in their daily lives.

As a simple item of ritual, it has very little value.

Yes, and yes. It is spoken every Sunday, after the prayers of the people. I have heard it sung and it sounds somehow different and unfamiliar...I prefer to hear the words spoken.

Let us look at the total liturgy to see where it could fit:  The opening prayer of centering could include the lord's prayer as it too centers....... this is after the call to worship which is creating open space for the spirit to slide in - call silence prayer..... then when it comes to the prayers of the people the issue is wordiness - where the prayer becomes another sermon or call response ( bidding) with a lot of silence between the call - let us pray for x - if that is the form then the lord;s prayer does not belong there.

 

My bias is against the pastoral prayer as too wordy - another sermon and too didactic and no room to think or pray.  It is the prayer of the presider not the people.

It's part of the Orthodox divine liturgy. May be sung or spoken. Generally done twice during the service (the Orthodox services are quite long, the divine liturgy is about 2 hours, including a 20 minute or so sermon).
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We use English. There was no Orthodox church speaking English until fairly recently so we use the version in the Anglican Book of Common Prayer.
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It would seem odd to skip it to me. Everyone seems familiar with it.
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The regular Sunday service is the Divine Liturgy of St John Chrystostom. Everything is scripted. There is no room for change.
That's just the way we do things. Very predictable.

EO - when you use the term Orthodox are you referring to the Canadian Orthodox Church or one of the other versions of Orthodoxy?  I'm curious because during my travels I have seen some churches labelled Greek Orthodox and Ukrainian Orthodox and Russian Orthodx but not Canadian Orthodox.  Could be there, of course, and just not noticed by me.

We tend to say it weekly, and as mentioned above, while the children are still present in the service. It tends to be the standard format, which I regard as simply the price of a prayer that's instantly recognisable by Christians no matter where you go in the world. But I would also argue that what is not repeated can be easily forgotten. The words may be well known to the denizens of WC, but there are several in our church that wouldn't be able to repeat it if asked. That's why we've begun to project the words to the prayer each time we say it. If I had more time, I could add in a few contextual images, but since I already do that in the rest of the service, I just run out of time (and energy) to put up anything other than the words for the prayer. I can certainly see how imagery could help drive its point home, however. (Which is an interesting point as then it becomes more an issue of God talking to us rather than us talking to God, which may be the hidden dimension of prayer that we often overlook).

 

I do take issue with the first line of the L's P, however, but not for Mike's reason. The phrase "who art in heaven" makes God sound resident in some distant place. A while ago, a paraphrase came out (can anyone give more details), which altered this slightly to "in whom is heaven", which emphasizes the much-taught lesson of Jesus that we come closer to the realm of heaven when we allow God to work through us.

 

No and no as I believe Jesus meant it to be a teaching aid to His disciples on how to pray so the Prayer contains the elements on how to pray ----

 

Pray to God ---who is holy and sanctified ---we are to pray God's will not our will --we should confess our sins and turn from them and forgive others who wrong us--- we are encouraged to pray for our daily needs ( Bread )---  we should ask for help to obtain victory over sin and for protection from the evil one .

 

I personally feel God is more interested in what is in our hearts when we pray than He is a recited prayer.

 

Peace    

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For a long time the Orthodox churches in North America were extensions of the ones at home. They would use the same language, be under the same authority (Metropolitan, Archbishop, Patriarch).
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The Russians were the first to North America, to Alaska, starting in the late 1700's. Then that lapsed after 1917, when the Communists came. They started it up again in about 2000 or so. They decided to use English. Then they decided to make it separate from the Russian church, it is now called The Orthdox Church in America (but includes Canada). So we still have a Russian flavour, in the tunes and a few things like that. Superficial things. And we're pretty new. Perhaps half the congregation are converts. A lot of ex-Anglicans.
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The ethnic churches (that use Greek, Ukrainian, etc) are still there.
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It's even more complicated than that. You will see "Ukranian Catholic"' etc. These are cases where the Catholic Church convinced people to come under the Pope, but we're allowed to keep the Orthodox rituals. It's a big mess.
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In eastern Europe, the Orthodox resent these Catholic "poachers", there's all sorts of bad feelings. It's more relaxed in North America.

I am on vacation and currently in Fredericton. I live in Ontario. I went to a Unitarian Fellowship church today. It was quite refreshing to not hear the Lord's prayer or the word God being used in the service. I didn't find it comparable to the United Church I attend in Ontario. Although the music was similar in melody it didn't have the God language in it that Voices United has imho.

PS it was my first time attending a Unitarian church. I think I would go again if there was one in my area. Unfortunately the closest one to where I live is an hour and a half drive away.

Yes & yes - we use VU #959 as REd baron mentions ... I like this sung version ... it's usually at the end of the prayer of approach.

 

Totally agree with Pans comment re lengthy 'prayers of the people' - some in our church do make it sound like a second sermon too!!  Not to my liking.

 I often wondered how clergy felt about prayers of the people. I have to admit mine always sounded like a second sermon; and i resented having to listen to me giving two sermons.

 

It would seem to me that God is interested in what's in our hearts when we pray, whether the prayer is recited or extemporaneous. If the recited prayer is being offered from the heart then it is a very worthy prayer; to make the assumption that the recited prayer is not from the heart is judgmental, and therefore unworthy of the gospel.

 

While I agree that what we call "The Lord's Prayer" was a teaching about prayer rather than a prayer, I see no fault in using it as a prayer. I for one find The Lord's Prayer very moving.

 

Excellent post Rev Steven. 

Debts vs. trespass
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In the phrase "forgive us our trespasses"
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Several people at my church have indicated that the English version of the Lord's prayer (using the word "trepasses") totally changes the meaning from their mother language (Russian, etc).
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Apparently they use a word more like "debt" -- which I think is closer to the original Greek (?)
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Any thoughts on this? "Trespass" might have had a different meaning several hundred years ago.

 

Well here's the way I like to look at it EO -- meh. Which is just to say, it's all good.

Apparently "debts" was used in the Wycliffe Bible, but "trespasses" took over in Tyndale, and the Book of Common Prayer adopted Tyndale's version. The end result is that many if not most liturgies use "trespasses" but most biblical translations use "debts." Apparently "debts" is the more correct translation. Either way, the word is used in reference to sin, and I think the general meaning is clear no matter which word is used. We are to both seek and offer forgiveness.

I can remember, as a child, learning the prayer with the words 'debts' and 'debtors'. But, of course, that's back in the day when Wycliffe was still the dernier cri.

We always have the Lords Prayer in our service, in some form - usually just after the prayers of the people. Sometimes we sing it, other times we use alternate wordings for it but lately we've been saying it in the traditional manner with one notable exception - we start the prayer by saying "Our Mother and Father who art in Heaven..."

 

Even though we, as a congregation, do say the prayer every week, it's always done after the children leave for Sunday School which means that I, as a Sunday School teacher, usually miss that part of the service. It is for this reason that I wouldn't miss it if it were left out of a service.

somegal, as a church school teacher, are you advocating to have the Lord's Prayer in a different spot in the service for both the children and the teachers.

 

I have found that a responsive prayer like;

 

Our father, who art in heaven

 

repeted by congregation and children.

 

is a very meaningful way to say the Lord's Prayer. Adults slow down and listen and children who are fast learners know it in very few weeks.

 

I hate when the Lord's Prayer is recited a hundred miles an hour. There is no meaning there, imo.

I am very fond of the Lord's Prayer.  I like it both spoken and sung and love that many can participate in either format from memory.  The words are always printed in the bulletin for newcomers or anyone else who does not have it committed to memory.

 

Save for Communion Sundays, the Lord's Prayer follows the Children's Time.  Since I lead Children's Time, I wonder if I could spur some change in regards to the language.  This could be a great way to introduce different ways that people (in our faith and others) refer to God.  Our father, our mother, our creator, our comfort...

 

Thank you all for getting me thinking about this long before the kids return in September!

Yes and Yes

I learned the Lord's Prayer when I was five, my Dad had passed away and the "Our Father" meant alot to me.  I don't mind hymns and prayers being gender neutral but would not like doing away with all of the God as Father references. 

I am not enthusiastic about the concept of God as a father. It makes God into a person separate from us rather than in us. We have also thus created a world of a great many gods.

When I lived in Montreal, there were two RC churches named Our lady of something, and Our lady of something else.

I actually heard people arguing over whose lady was strongest. No. I am not making this up.