I don't see the devil as a discrete identifiable personal being so gender is about as relevant as the gender of God

I nteresting to see what others think though

I always saw God as just this Aura of love, and perhaps the devil is the opposite? When I was little a always pictured the devil as a giant booger, because I related him to the boogie was, which I thought was a giant excretion of the nose, at the time.

The Devil is male because Lucifer, the Angel of Light, deluded himself into believing that he is God, and for this unpardonable sin was plunged into hell, along with 40 of his followers, and became Satan, the Lord of Hell.

To this day, all those who believe that they can be God, or at-one-with God, are in league with Satan. Many Eastern religions, much of the New Age, and even liberal or progressive Christians are now in league with Satan.

If God is neither he, or she but a huge entity, why then is the devil sexualized?

Hi crazyheart:

I don't sexualize the Devil, but some fundamentalists do, because of the Lucifer mythology, I think. We have yet to hear from people who actaully believe in the Devil.

I think it would be more fruitful to ask ourselves what the Lucifer mythology means to us?

Arminius, I have added that question to the opening thread. thanks.

Probably because of all the "Tail" he has.

Or because he is "Horney"

Or because he is "Red Hot"

If the feminine side of me is a predetor for evil, then the "beast within me" takes that  feminine form and vice versa for the masculine side.

I don't think there is a literal devil that fuels off our sins, but rather that when someone would do something that is evil/good, he/she is acting as his/her own devil/god and creating his/her own personal hell/heaven that manifests into our physical reality by cause and effect.  

There might be a heaven and/or hell as a dwelling for the "afterlife", however, I personaly don't believe this to be so.  All my life I have listened to people talk about what they believe and why, and it seems that the thing that they all have in common is that they all want to desperatly cling to some hope that they will live forever in some sort of way (immortal life). 

Hi crazyheart:

I think the Lucifer mythology means to tell us that the egocentric self cannot be God, and that the the egocentric self deluding itself into believing that it can be God is indeed evil, or can lead to evil.

In order to become at-one with God, we have to forgo the egocentric self. If God is the all-inclusive deity, then we have to become all-inclusive in order to be at one with IT!

The belief in a separate Creator God and a separate ego self makes it difficult if not impossibly to be at-one with God. If the separate ego self believes itself to be at-one with the separate Creator God, then this will blow its egocentricity way out of proportion and possibly result in great evil.

A prime example of that is Hitler. He had a mystical experience, and believed himself to be at-one with whatever warrior god he believed in, and firmly believed that his ego- and ethno-centric notions had received divine sanction. The rest is one of the saddest and most evil chapters in history!

The price for becoming at-one with God is the egocentric self. "At-one-ment," without the dashes, spells "atonement." At-one-ment is the ultimate atonement, but the price for it is the egocentric (and ethnocentric and anthropocentric) self. At-one-ment means all-inclusiveness; at-one-ment means to become world-centric.

Only when we are truly world-centric are we truly at-one with God. Maybe none of us are totally there, but we can certainly strive for it. Godliness seems to be a goal that we continuously strive for but never quite achieve.

Only when we are truly world-centric are we truly at-one with God. Maybe none of us are totally there, but we can certainly strive for it. Godliness seems to be a goal that we continuously strive for but never quite achieve.

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This is true, but what is the alternative if we do not strive to be "God-like"?

(God-like meaning perfect in everyway possible-if our limited minds can really grasp what perfection really is on a universal level apposed to a personal level)

I do believe in God, depending on what you mean by God.  I do believe that existance/physical reality/life as a whole/the universe has always been and will always be.  The matter within this endless, shapeless, infinite universe will always change shape and form but has always and will always exist.  This "everything" in "everytime" in my opinion is "God". 

We are but mere specks in an endless ocean of reality.  This doesn't mean that we are insugnificant, but rather the fact that we exist makes us and everything in existance as equally valuable b/c reality wouldn't be what it is without everything in it. 

With that said (sorry so lengthy) if are choices are made based on a universal consideration rather than personal, we are striving to be "God-like".

This is true, but what is the alternative if we do not strive to be "God-like"?

(God-like meaning perfect in everyway possible-if our limited minds can really grasp what perfection really is on a universal level apposed to a personal level)

I do believe in God, depending on what you mean by God.  I do believe that existance/physical reality/life as a whole/the universe has always been and will always be.  The matter within this endless, shapeless, infinite universe will always change shape and form but has always and will always exist.  This "everything" in "everytime" in my opinion is "God". 

We are but mere specks in an endless ocean of reality.  This doesn't mean that we are insugnificant, but rather the fact that we exist makes us and everything in existance as equally valuable b/c reality wouldn't be what it is without everything in it. 

With that said (sorry so lengthy) if are choices are made based on a universal consideration rather than personal, we are striving to be "God-like".

[/quote]

Yes, SunZeye, I quite agree.

Atonement could also be thought of as in-tune-ment perhaps. In tune with the frequencies of the universe. A tone amongst all the tones. I like the thought of tones of colour being reflections of tones of sound~

Back to the devil...He is mostly portrayed as male right? Though I can think of 17th century images where he is male but with pendulous breasts. I think he would tend to be thought of as male because masculinity is usually the more forceful and warlike of the sexes. So God should be female then right? The creative force. This is the reason grooms wear black and brides wear white; the death force and the life force, though of cource that's not necessary, and we each contain both.

Hi crazyheart,

I do not always talk abut the devil.  Whenever I have I talk about the devil as being as real as God.

Neither.  In my encounters with raw, unadulterated malevolence that is what I percieved.  Raw.  Unadulterated malevolence.  Not raw, unadulterated, male malevolence.  Not raw, unadulterated, female malevolence.  Just a malevolence that was . . . well, raw and unadulterated.  A naked, aggression if you will.

I don't know what it means to us.  I know what it means to me.

Artistic depictions are just that artistic depictions.  What it looks like is anybody's guess.  I certainly saw nothing. 

What it feels like is beyond my ability to describe in such a degree that you would be able to feel it.  You might likely recognize the feelings I describe but it is an experience which is very difficult to compare with any other experience as far as I can tell.

I intuitively knew what it was that was present and I percieved what I believe were its intentions toward me.  Having also had similar encounters with God there are some similarities in perception but they are two, very definitely discernable entities.

One is very much love and compassion.  How would you depict that artistically?

One is very much hatred and threat.  How would you depict that artistically?

Grace and peace to you.

John

quite personally, for this, i believe in God and i believe he is just an entity and he's love, quite simply. i strive to love people. i try to treat others as kindly as i can. Because God is kind of my role model in this, thats why i want to have this afterlife. im not an immortal, nor will i be. A whole seprate part of me, my spirit, is edified when I, as a physical person, live how God intended humans to live. NOT without fault. Im not perfect, i know it, and i tihnk its a darn good thing He sent Jesus to show we can be forgiven. I dont 'desperately cling' to this hope of the afterlife, i simply long to have it because it will put me at the closest distance i can be to my Father. I want to be with him. I'm gonna live my life for him and when i do die, i hope i'll be near Him. I do not want to live forever. i just wanna be with god 24/7 as easily as i can. I tihnk if you looked harder, not everybody is desprate. in fact, alot of us are pretty clear headed.

 RevJohn, 

your posting brings to mind a snippet from Fellowship of the Ring, where Frodo is asessing his feeling about Strider, or Aragorn:

"You have frightened me several time tonight, but never in the way that servants of the Enemy would, or so I imagine.  I think one of his spies would - well, seem fairer and feel fouler, if you understand."

Back to our own "Enemy", who can be made to seem very splendid indeed to fullfil evil's purpose when it is needed. The bible describes 'Him' as a being of light.

Arminius,

You wrote, " In order to be at-one with God we have to forgo the egocentric self."

My mystic friend, we who've had a spiritual experience, are fortunate to understand this first hand. Post spiritual experience atonement will always mean at-one-ment to me.

After reading your excellent post I'm wondering if the Lucifer mythology is implying that the egocentic self is the devil? In other words, when we're feeling connected and at-one we're with God, - and when we're feeling unconnected (egocentric self) we're with the devil?

Pilgrims Progress,

I think that people can be separated from God, without being "with the devil" I think very few people have mystical experiences and have the "at-one-ment" feeling.  A large percentage of the population, in Canada anyway, don't appear to think very much about God, or spirituality, however most of them are still good people, many of them more generous and caring for their fellowmen than some of the people who attend church on a regular basis.  (Thats my opinion of people in general, but then my wife says I see the world through rose colored glasses........   )

Sorry CH, I drifted off topic yet again   .

I don't think the devil is real, so I could not enter a debate on its gender.  I do however acknowledge that there are forces of evil in the world, that people could personify as the devil.

Yes, P.P. you are quite right. The godly power is the power of creativeness. When used negatively, creativeness becomes destructiveness.

When we use our creative powers egocentrically, then it frequently ends up being destructive. The dilemma of our species is that we (ab)use our creative powers egocentrically and destructively.

Soon and late, giving and getting, we lay waste our powers.

(I can't remember the author of the above line) 

Well, that last post from Old Scratch him/her/itself will be hard to follow up. Especially given the spelling error in the first sentence. "I am the Satin!" sounds more like a Home Outfitters ad than a theological statment. I remember a troll on alt.horror who loudly pronounced that the we were all worshipping "Satin" which then launched a torrent of (often profane) bad jokes about our taste in bedsheets and lingerie .

Back on topic. As for the Lucifer mythology, it is exactly that, mythology, and so the gender of the being doesn't necessarily matter. There have been some very good female Devils (both literal and figurative) in drama and cinema over the last few decades, so it's definitely clear that the Devil doesn't need to be male to be an effective archetype any more than God does. Lucifer is really a personification of those forces that lead us away from connectedness to ourselves and our world, which is, I think, a very simplistic restatement of Arminius' excellent discussion of the subject upthread. So go read Arminius' post again.

How could evilness have intentions toward you? What was the circumstance? I find this hard to imagine.

If I may... I would depict love and compassion as a loving mother, arms outstretched to embrace and glowing in yellow sunlight, and I would depict hatred and threat as an armed assailant, maybe a gang member wearing a bandana and weilding a knife, with a terrifying scoul on his face, in the dark.

Hi Elanorgold,

Evilness can have no intention.  Evil can.

It was at camp.  A Christian camp but by no means Jesus Camp.  Just a regular run of the mill United Church camp.  Kids started dropping like flies.  Passing out, hyperventilating, and wigging out.  It is an occurrance which I found, in over 8 years of experience with camps is unparalleled.

I was with another camp (off-site) when a counsellor from on-site came running over and asking us if we were having the same sort of thing.  Our gang was asleep, a little earlier than usual but hey we work hard on wilderness and burn up a lot of energy.

At any rate I left the counsellors in charge and went back to main-site to see what was going on and to offer assistance if at all possible.  It was bedlam.  The girls were wigging out and panicking.

Which I get.  Panic one and they faint or whatever and others will start to experience anxiety themselves.  Nothing really all that unusual.  except for the scope of it.  One kid fainting and freaking out one cabin I can see but several kids fainting and freaking out several cabins.  Something is up with that.

Some of the girls were milking the event to get the attention of specific counsellors which probably didn't help to lessen the general anxiety.  Some of them were seriously spooked but could not identify what it was that scared them so much.

We are all running around doing our best to calm things down and moving those who seemed to be having problems breathing in the heat and the humidity to the walk-in freezer in the kitchen to cool-off.

I'm seeing fakers and I'm seeing genuinely fightened kids but I'm not seeing a reason for anyone to be afraid to begin with.  I am starting to feel the icy fingers of fear creep around myself and at first I'm just thinking that it is normal.  I'm in a position of responsibility and these kids are that responsibility and they are having somekind of emotional/mental/physical crisis.

We have about 50 young women edging closer and closer to hysteria and some of the counsellors are being dragged along for the ride.  My colleagues are reaching the end of their ropes, they are giving in to fear as well and I am notincing that my pulse is beginning to race.  Not from physical exertion but from the panic that icy fist is begining to wring out of me.

And that's when I make the connection.  This is no ordinary fear.  I've had lots of experience with that emotion to know when something more hardcore is present and in the middle of a jaunt across the playing field to report on the situation in a specific cabin that I when fear makes its move.

Like a wave it breaks on top of me.  I've been expecting it though and I resist.  It keeps coming and I stand my ground.  It tries to slip around and I keep turning to face it.  Yes, I am physically turning to face it.  In my wrestlers' stance.  Feet shoulderwidth apart, knees slightly bent elbows in and hands up.  I'm ready to take on whatever I can lay my hands on.

And it feels that close.

And it feels angry and it wants to hurt me and my fear is struggling to break free.  In the choice between fight and flight I'm not built for speed so running isn't my option.  I dig in.

I don't hear anything.

I don't see anything.

I feel something.

Not with my hands but it is there in front of me.  I can sense it.

Since I obviously cannot get a physical lock on it I am not going to be wrestling with it physically which convinces me that I need to fight it some other way.  So I pray.  I challenge it spiritually.  There is an immediate response.  It fires back and it is trying to break me.  I push on, I refuse to yield and eventually it retreats.  Spiritually I give chase and I can still hear kids moaning in the cabins but they are getting quieter.

Finally, whatever it was that I felt is gone.  Leaving just the echo of its presence.  Whatever induced the panic has gone also.  Within the hour everyone is in their bunks asleep, as if nothing had happened.

I hope it is always so for you.  It was my second encounter with a very real evil.  I'm actually embarrassed that I didn't recognize the feelings and their source sooner.  I was very quick the third time.

Those work.

Grace and peace to you.

John

CH,

I think there are multiple models for Satan and Lucifer and that each individual can choose which one(s) to try on for size. Here are at least four:

The historical: Pan, not to be confused with our dear friend, Panentheism, all shaggy and goaty, 'appropriated' by the Catholic church and made into an image of Satan. We get our word Panic from Pan.

The literary: H.P.Lovecraft wrote aboot entities who were not only inmical to our existence, but really didn't care. Immensely powerful (one of them, Azathoth, was supposed to be the Creator of universe), to be near a manifestation of them quickly drives people insane. Ignorance (and really quick feet) was the best defence against them. Later on, other writers built upon his works. My favourites are works by Brain Lumley (who created an organization that actually tries and succeeds in fighting them) and Colin Wilson (who did a good job in showing the Great Shell Game that these beings play with humans).

The psychological: Carl Jung said that everyone has a Shadow, that dark, necessary and hidden part of their personality. Those who didn't examine it and understand it were doomed to always be at its whim when it expressed itself.

The musical: "Well you can hide under the porch
And you can hide behind the couch
But the day the devil comes to getcha
He's right on time
Here he comes

Well I'm sick of hearin bout your problems
Yeah girlie your breakin my heart
I'm the original party animal
Hey!  Hey!  Babaloo
So don't come bangin your Bibles
Cause you've been laughin
all the way to the bank
And don't give me those crocodile tears
Cause you've been doing it for years
I'm everywhere!  Sign right here
Mr. Jones"

excerpt from "The Day the Devil" by Laurie Anderson

Ones views on Satan and company can also reveal a lot aboot the believer :3

RevJohn,

W O W. That was quite the experience you had.

It makes me think of:

o "never build your camp on an Indian burial ground";

o universe has a strange sense of humour -- I bet you'd never have guessed in a billion years you'd have to use your wrestlin skills that way;

o have you had yourself checked out for Psychic abilities?

o my scientist self is going "WHAT AN OPPORTUNITY"

All hail the Great G_d Pan,

Inannawhimsey

 John, that's freaky man.  I am glad you recognized it for what it was and was able to stand. 

Blessings

Trish

Hi Inanna Whimsey,

As far as I am aware it isn't but that is always good advice.

You'd win that bet.  I thought that bit in Ephesians was more metaphor.

I'm not sure of the tests one needs to determine that.  All other tests confirm that I am neurotypical.  There were no recent blows to the head precipitating these events.  Nor does the camp nurse carry the gear to record that kind of activity.

While science is away reality doth play.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi revjohn.

Wow!  I went to a United Church camp for six years, one of which I was a counsellor, but I'm sure glad I wasn't at that camp with you!   I must say though,  my camping experiences were a bit boring compared to yours!  I'm sure glad you were there for those girls.

CH - when I was young I always thought  satan was male.

As I grew older, I thought he didn't exist.

Now, I'm not so sure!!!

 Innana, one does not need psychic abilties. One needs the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  That and some of practical knowledge in spiritual warfare.

I'm glad RevJohn has those.

I trust RevJohn to have had an experience.
 

I don't know what it "meant". He was the one who experienced it :3
 

(anyone who says they do know what it meant are doing so under their own responsibility)

I always don't know. I have hints of "I suppose" and "what aboot this?"
 

In this case, what got twigged in me is I wonder if anyone has tried to find out a correlation between psychic ability and ability to sense G_d or have experiences like RevJohn had.
 

Now, "psychic ability" doesn't have to mean 'strange immaterial waves of being', but could mean something like having acute discernment a la Sherlock Holmes. It could also mean the more precise definitions given by Dean Radin, the author of "The Conscious Universe".
 

Live trishcuit. Life is good :3

Ending pythagoras' reign,
Inannawhimsey

Thanks RevJon for that recounting. My goodness what a scene! A tale to remember, that. I've been to camp. It can get crazy, especially when it's all girls it would seem! Good thing there was no hot boy band there to make it even worse! All though from what you say the young male councellors might have had something to do with it...

I remember when I was about 12 or 13 and just starting to get really interested in boys, I went a little whacko one time in a rubber stamp shop over a particularily hot looking store employee. I actually fell to the ground infront of him, laughing myself silly, quite hysterical, made a real scene and fool of myself, my heart pounding and head spinning.

Another time at Girl Guide camp in the dorm we got talking about Bloody Mary, and the girls were daring each other to do it, that is: go to the bathroom and look in the mirror and say the phrase three times, because apparantly you see an image of Mary in the mirror all covered with blood or some such thing. I had never heard of this and when it was explained to me I was rather frightened and went and hid and cried, other girls were skreaming and cring and begging them not to do it.

I gotta say, if it had been me in your boots, it would have seemed quite different to me than it did to you. Nevertheless, you got things under control, and that is good.

Thanks again, very interesting.

 Inanna, I do live my life and it is a very good one, thanks! I am very much blessed.