He who controls the money controls the world. Teach kids to be consumers and you teach them to be in debt. Be in debt and you are forever under control of another. Christianity is clear that in the end of days no one will buy or sell unless allegiance is paid to this purely manmade god. The pressure on the young have nots is so great that we have the formation of gangs and the like to acquire goods or money to get goods in the only way they can to keep up with the rest. Madison Avenue rules.

 

But what kind of example do Christians give when they to are so involved in the traditional ways of mankind rather than living in the alternate ways of the Kingdom? I almost started a war with our neighbours to the south today when I mentioned and rightly so, "There is no such thing as a Christian if they are working in favour of the ideals of the traditional institutions of man." Didn't go over well with the convention going on and all, and them saying how wonderful the witnessing within the party was,(false witness) but it is true.

The ways/ideals of the Kingdom of God and the ways/ideals of mankind and our institutions are in conflict. As Jesus said,
Matthew 6: 24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

 

There is a new powerful but misleading Christianity in town that not only strives to be politically correct but is composed of politics, economics with a smattering of God.  If Christians are following the wrong ideals then how can we blame the kids?

One trend that I have noticed in children's birthday parties that I have noticed and support is the idea of a charitable birthday. Instead of bringing gifts, guests are asked to bring a donation to an organization chosen by the birthday child. 

 

The other thing I have observed, from talking to several parents of young children, is they often seem to lack the self-confidence to plan a child's party and so they book a more extravagant party at a rec-centre or restaurant instead. They don't seem to realize that small children are relatively easy to entertain. You don't have plan anything too challenging - a few games, some cake and some free play time at a nearby playground would make a great party (oh - and don't forget a loot bag)! 

 

I have a summer birthday, so there were never enough kids around to have a big party as a child, not that we could have afforded one. My favourite party was the year I turned 11 - I invited two friends over for a camp out in a tent in my back yard. I have no idea what presents they gave me, but I do recall that one of them hand drew me a funny card and that the best part was that we stayed up half the night giggling about boys. This required little planning or expense on the part of my parents and was a memorable experience for all of us.

er, I have no idea why this post was here - very weird

 

 

Funerals have long been cash cows for an undertaking industry that has "innovated" all sorts of extraneous elements into funeral "requirements" (coffins can now cost as much as a car); wedding planners extort all sorts of extras from young couples who pay inflated prices for guest trinkets, table displays, photography, costuming, specialist catering, flowers… all sorts of use and discard paraphenalia that has nothing to do with making public vows of love and loyalty or spirituality. 

 

I have seen and been to weddings in South America where a number of marriages are consecrated simultaneously in a shared cathedral service and a whole communitty turns out to celebrate in the afternoon and on into the evening.

People (not just invited friends) bring food and musical instruments to be a part of it all, have fun and dance, and everyone pins paper money to the brides' dresses. The couples leave the party with what's often significant financial boost to help them make a start to their lives together. I have heard of couples in Uruguay having enough money from their wedding day to BUY a modest house, outright (when I was there, houses were cheap because, when the government banned repossessions, banks refused to issue mortgages and, without the influx of finance, there was no inflationary pressure and no speculation. So homes changed hands for what they were worth as a place to live rather than as a way to gamble on future demand.) Of course, there were disppointments and the divorce rate has risen with modernity (to about half the U.S. rate)  — its "high" by Latin standards — but family and community relationships are still fairly strong. 

 

"Rites of passage" should not be commercialised but, hey, where the Economy is "god" it's deemed desirable to make a killing wherever you can. It provides opportunities for people to show the sincerity of their commitment to the event, be it a wedding, a funeral, a graduation, an engagement, a baby shower… then there's Easter, mothers' day, Thanksgiving, fathers' day…) "Expensive" is the new "sacred", and fun — like commitment — is fuelled with dollars.

 

I'm not that big on public ritual but I do hold a few things sacred in the traditional sense — friendship, commitment, air, water and food, oceans and seas, justice and peace… and "sacred", to me, means you don't exploit them, abuse them or trash them. You give to them, you protect them, you are there for them. Silly me.

 

Materialism, commercialism, consumerism.. they are killing us as a species. The worse it gets the more we ignore our environment and the well being of our neighbours, both local and foreign.

 

In the end, if we don't begin to see the "real" value of why we are here, it will destroy our planet. We cannot serve two masters, and the master of attachment is one that has no regards for others, unless we are tyring to sell then something..

For the first time in history the powers and principalities, those who control (not print) the money are able to control the entire world. They rule over all governments and have the ability to enslave the entire world without a shot being fired. We use their made up currency while they continually push us with more ways for the gullible to be in their debt. They continually profit from both sides of war as they finance both sides. They determine who lives and who dies and the threat they hold is written in the Bible. Rev. 13: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

 

Anti-Christ is not a person but a system which works in opposition to the ways of the Kingdom. Jesus knew what He was doing when He threw the moneychangers out of the temple. His display of anger was a forerunner of what is to come at His return.

So does the church have a role in countering this?

The church is made up of people, Graeme… frightened-of-dying people who are attached to buildings and structures and committees and secular accounting standards with money-based "bottom lines" which say what is and what is not "possible".

 

The early church operated on a common purse and and lived in defiance of very human, very physical, very violent, stone-and-iron powers and principalities. "Satan" was a euphemism for military-backed brute force. Now we tend to live in pixielands of euphemism: "satan" is a bad spirit; instead of truly sharing what we have and standing with the destitute, the imprisoned, the sick and the persecuted to the extent of sharing their fate if needs be, we (by and large) have "charity" — the self-justifying perogative of those who have too much.  We are distanced from life by entertainment, 60-hour working weeks, institutional xenophobia and pathological levels of risk aversion, feelings of entitlement and cultural conceit. 

 

What do you expect, Graeme? Parish council members selling their homes and cars and giving the money to the poor, then facing down riot police in the street to oppose corporate greed and political assaults on democracy? Silly boy!

Yes, I agree. The anti-christ is a euphemism for the forces of (and maybe more importantly, the desire for) materialism. "He who is not with me is against me". The forces of materialism work against the forces of the true spirit. One energy is forcing itself into the material world while the other working its way out of the material world. Ultimately we learn that the world of matter is a world of illusion, both metaphorically and literally.

 

Yes, starting with the Sunday schools and continuing in the adult groups, by encouraging less consumerism and cow-towing to commercial interests. Walking the talk, and creating the envirnment for others to do the same. For parties?...pot lucks, low-budget but equally celebratory weddings, birthdays, Christmas parties... encouraging handmade gifts instead of store bought,donating old clothes, baby items/ kids toys (because they are expensive and only used for a short time) and household items for others to use and trade. They can create craft making groups, baking and canning groups. Knitting groups, woodworking groups, whatever...and I think many do have programs/ ministries like this. The more the better. They could ask congregants with particular skill sets to contribute their time, a few hours a week to be available (i.e. if there is a plumber, a mechanic, or a babysitter, an advocate,  a counsellor, a cook, housekeeper, etc. in the congregation who is willing to put their name forward to give some time and skill to whoever needs it as situations arise. There are lots of ways.You don't have to buy, buy ,buy, to have a good quality of life. There are lots of ways for the church to encourage people to take a look at their values and adopt better behaviour...revisit the value of sharing...I mean weren't we taught to share as kids? What happened? From what I can tell, churches are already attempting to do this (plenty of examples at my church), but are people listening?

 

 

 

Matthew 13: 22  He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

 

Aren't we all, in North America, in some way "seed among thorns, or thorns among seed"...at various times and points in our lives? Sometimes both at the same time, because we may do somethings right and some things wrong. For a metaphor, cactuses are thorny, but they also contain water, and seeds, and blossoms. We are like cactuses (cacti?) in many ways!...lol.

 

 And sometimes we don't take the time out to be aware of where we can be doing better.  I can say honestly, that I know what should be done, but many times if I either don't create the right conditions around me to live the right way, or I feel "choked" by the obstacles around me, I don't live exactly as I should. There is that saying, "it takes a community to raise a child", if there is no coherent community on the same page (and we share the responsibility to make it happen with others), then the growth conditions aren't ideal. So, it takes the whole community committed to creating the proper conditions for things to change from the inside out.

 

"So, it takes the whole community committed to creating the proper conditions for things to change from the inside out."

 

Our relationship with God is a personal, not a communal thing. It is our personal attitude that matters.

Are you sure? That's a rhetorical question.

Birthdays were kind of a big deal in my house growing up, but when my brother and I were little my mom usually got a cake and hot dogs and we had friends over.  We were both born in warm months (June and September) so we could do a lot of things outside.  She usually set up games in the back yard and if it rained we would play something inside the house like Bingo for little prizes she had.  When we got a bit older, she would arrange for all the kids to go miniputting or bowling, which cost a bit more.  Around age twelve it turned in to slumber parties with movies and pizza.  

 

I agree that some of the parties are getting out of hand these days.  The parties have themes and they are incredibly expensive.  I think there are a lot of reasons behind it, though.  It's not just about having the best party or being materialistic; one big issue is that people simply don't know each other.  A lot of parents don't want their kids going to friend's houses because they don't know the friend's parents.  They just feel more comfortable and safe in a public place.  Personally, I find that really sad.  

 

Another reason is that having a birthday party at home is more work than meeting everyone at a public place.  The house needs to be "company ready" and not only do you have to plan activities, but you have to deal with making food and doing clean up.  That's why I had Rachel's party at the gymnastics club last year.  The kids had fun jumping on the trampoline and playing on the gymnastics equipment with an instructor and they got pizza and juice.  It was $150 for 8 kids and we had to bring our own cake.  That was much more reasonable than other places we had considered.  Rachel's birthday is also in early November, so the weather is much less friendly for outdoor activities.  

 

 

I had birthday parties too. Homemade cake and hotdogs, sleep-over parties with homemade popcorn and movies (those were the most fun and not expensive)...we'd stay up late giggling and telling stories.  Silly made up games, like one inexpensive gift wrapped in layers of newspaper and cheap wrapping...the person to unwrap the last layer gets the prize..and it didn;t matter what it was. I think as kids we were just happy to unwrap stuff. That was the fun part. If whatever it was came with bubble wrap to pop, all the better (although not environmentally friendly). Pin the tail on the donkey (I remember my mom making a game like that out of pieces of felt, and velcro, not buying one from the store). Sometimes small, homemade goodie bags for the kids to take home. I remember going to the public pool with a bunch of kids to swim for one birthday party, don't  think it was my party, then having homemade cake in the cafeteria area (those were the days when noone objected to bringing your own cake into places like that).  If it was summer, we might go to the beach or run through the sprinkler in the yard.  Never anything extravagant or expensive, but I was perfectly happy with that.  It never occurred to me not to be. I could have fun anywhere as long as my friends were there. Now kids are getting bouncy castles (which I have to admit look like fun,  but are they necessary?) and expensive theme parties and entertainers.

Au contraire not4.

 

"A new commandment I give you", says the Christ, "that you love one another; as I have loved you, you also may love one another. It is by this that every one will know that you are my disciples--if you love one another."

 

By "disciples" the Christ is not implying any form of religion or sect following, but rather from the point of view that Christ embodies within himself the Soul of Humanity. With these words, "love one another", Christ is proposing a "holistic" approach to how we should live with another. And not only through community relationships but, and considering the state of the world today these words can be considered most prophetic, also to our international world relationships.

 

 

Loving another and sharing and trusting and ensuring justice for all is the single, only way we are ever going to get out of the quagmire our world is in today.  Only by seeing Humanity holistically as an undivided whole will we ever endear the love for our fellow man, woman and child that we need to. This is why sharing is so, so very important today. Because until we answer that age old question, "Am I my brothers keeper?" with the right answer, we will never have the peace of Earth that Jesus represents.
 

 

not4prophet, I understand there is also a very personal relationship that we need to have with our makers, e.g. our own souls, but souls live in total awareness of each other. Finding the truth within leads us to cosmic awareness. Each of us is but a single spark that makes up this flame we Humanity, the One Flame. This is God-Awareness, being aware of everyone else in the Human Race and being aware as the Human Race in total. This is why "selflessness and service" are the ultimate road markers for those disiples on the path to Godhood.

 

It may start our as a personal journey to God but it leads to a Holistic approach to seeing and experiencing Life.

"They held everything in common," it was said of the early Christian communities.

 

Tribal communalism was not only the way of life for the early Christian communities, it was the way of life for our entire species, for the longest time in our history—by far. It could be argued that our species has evolved around the concern for the common good. We have strayed from the communal path, and it is up to us to find our way back to some modern form of communalism.

 

Tommy Douglas was recently voted, by the people of Canada, as the "Greatest Canadian." His ideas of Canada and the world as a "Cooperative Commonwealth" come close to the Social Gospel of Jesus, and are well worth re-visiting.

 

His Cooperative Commonwealth is a far cry from the modern day capitalist state that throws part of its ill-gotten gains at the poor and underprivileged to soothe our social conscience.

 

 

 

Neo.. I agree, yet our personal relationship in my mind is still the most important. The problem with community that starts out good, is that as it grows, it inevitably returns to the same structure and problems as the one we left behind, turning once more into a worldly institution.

If we can "incorporate" materialism into the social fabric, why is it so hard to incorporate a sense of giving and sharing into the social fabric?

 

Quite frankly, I think in North America we have become numb to the needs of others. We are tired and overwhelmed with the immensity of the problems of the world and our "shop til we drop" attitude has become just another way to dull our senses and retreat into a safe little world in order to block out the misery that exists in the world. I think we have all come to believe that what we do will no longer make a difference. We are overall becoming an apathetic people preferring to create our own little world that we feel safe in and look after our own family. (with the occassional donation,of course) How else can we explain that we are watching children being killed and starving to death as we speak with no public outcry of disgust? Or just yawn and turn away while the polar ice is melting? Sometimes I think half the world could catch on fire and we would just carry on as long as it doesn't affect where we live.

 

Does the church have a role in this? Absolutely, but unfortunately I think the churches have become places to talk about what is wrong rather than a source of inspiration for us to get off our fat asses.

We start with our personal relationship to God but it has to expand from there. It's very much like a young child who begins life with a personal relationship with its father and mother. Eventually that child must expand in awareness with its local community and then ultimately with the world.


Unification or Holism is what we have to work on right now, both locally and more importanly internationally. It is our only chance of survival, the alternative is unthinkable.


Find your personal relationship with your God within, this is always the first step. But then seek your greater relationship with Humanity. No man or woman is an island, so we must work together. Love and service to our fellow human beings is what the world needs now. Most of us on WCafe sense this. This is why we are here, posting our personal thoughts about God. If we didn't care then we wouldn't be here.


By "perfecting" ourselves we begin the journey of love and service. By perfecting ownselves we become a beacon for those in need of light. In this way we begin to establish a soul relationship with those around us. Do you see?


So how do we perfect our being? It takes more than simple devotion and prayer. By perfecting the physical, the mental, and the spiritual aspects of our being we let the light of our soul shine through, and in so doing we begin to connect with the other souls around us.


The Great Teachers of Humanity have told us that the fastest and most direct way to perfect these aspects of our being is to exercise, in everything we do, honesty of mind, sincerity of spirit, and an honest and sincere detachment to all those forms that may eventually imprison us. And it's not just physical things that can trap and snare us in time, it can be also be ideologies and belief structures that we've outgrown. They may have been useful for the time but eventually we have to let go of even our beliefs, like a child letting go of its favourite clothes. Growing in awareness requires detachment. This leads to a soul consciousness that will unite humanity on the soul level. If we can do this in our physical bodies then we begin to manifest 'Heaven on Earth'.

Hi  Neo--- My  view of what your posting makes it very hard to follow your beliefs. Sometimes you hit it out of the park . Other times it seems you swing and miss. In your first post , you posted-----A new commandment I give you", says the Christ, "that you love one another; as I have loved you, you also may love one another. It is by this that every one will know that you are my disciples--if you love one another."Then explaind this was for the world. Were as myself I see JESUS talking to the church.Jesus had much to say about the world and the church. The one that hit me as the best teaching  of the differents. Was when He told a follower whos  earthy father had passed away . To come follow Him, and  let the dead bury the dead.If want more  I could give many passages on the like, of the same thing. We the church are not to become part of the world. It works the other way . The world is to become part of GODS Kingdom. Much of this is in Rev. God Bless.

Neo... As I said, "it inevitably returns to the same structure and problems as the one we left behind, turning once more into a worldly institution"

 

Look what happened to the original followers of Jesus and how that changed back into a worldy institution. So much for creating a "heaven on earth" which they claim but which which of course materially is imposssible for it is only a state of mind until the return of the One who can actually do this. Just mankind thinking we can play God.

As an example of extreme materialism, one only need look to the south right now and a recent convention where so called Christians were extolling the virtues of the godly party. These people who go on about politics and align themselves with parties claiming they are more godly, are forgetting one thing. They are acting in ways and seeing the world through the eyes of politics and their country (what the Bible calls fleshy or worldly) RATHER than through the eyes of a follower of Jesus and His Kingdom."
 

They claim to have been born again or what have you but still see and live life purely with the mindset of the world (material thinking). How can these talk of Christian values in politics when they do not live them or speak with a Christian attitude but merely the same material attitudes that mankind has traditionally had since the beginning. Jesus said "But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." How can it be found looking with worldly eyes, let alone be passed through or travelled upon?
 

It's like someone extolling the virtues of flying while continually walking everywhere, feet firmly planted in the ground, and saying flying is set by their example.

Well what can I say, even Babe Ruth struck out once in a while.

The "church" didn't exist when Jesus was said to have uttered these words. I see the Christ as much more than just a religious leader for the Christian religion, a man-made religion that followed after his appearance. His claim that he had "other sheep that were not of this fold" tells me that his message was not isolated to this small group of men in the Middle East.


I see the Christ as a World Teacher Who is here for all of us: Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Jew, and every other person in the world.

This is where we part our ways in our beliefs Airclean. God's Kingdom, the way I see it, will manifest when enough of the worlds denizens become God-Aware.


These God-Aware are the "spirits of the just made men made perfect". And these are the members of the great "Church Invisible" who may or may not be associated with any visible church of the world. The are the "elect", but not neccesary the same "elect" that John Calvin envisioned, who are predermined by God while the rest of the world are doomed to suffering.


But rather the "elect" are the "Elders of the Race", the ones who have struggled and fought their way through the tempations of the world and are now God-Aware. I see each of us, regardless of our standing today, as having this potential. As 'children of God' we all have the destiny of growing in awareness to become the 'elders of God'.

But those failures shouldn't mean that we stop trying. Why this "heaven on earth" couldn't manifest back then is tied up in the mystery of the cycles, the time simply wasn't ripe for that type of manifestation. Today, I believe, that time is ripe. Our task right now is to move away from the materialism that the Age of Pisces has entrenched into our psyche and look to the future, the Age of Aquarius, that promises to wash away the old and bring in the new age. "Heaven and Earth shall pass away but my words will not", Christ said. We are currently living on the cusp of a new heaven and, if we respond accordingly, a new earth. The longer we hold onto to the past the harder it will be for us to accept the new.


Did you know that during the Aquarian task Hercules was tasked with cleaning the filth from the Augean stables? In a single day Hercules redirected a near by river and flowed them through the stables, cleaning away the age old filth that threatening the health of everyone in the area.


This is what is expected with the reappearance of the Christ today. Though it's thought that Christ will rather raise our awareness somehow, "wake us up" so to speak, and we will clean up the world, stop the wars and feed the hungry. He is but the "Architect of the Plan", and we will be the "willing builders of the Shining Temple of Truth". We simply have to think holistically and live with compassion for our fellow human beings.

not4 - there is no relationship with God without a relationship to others. There is no one is more important than the other. You might as well argue that feet are more important than legs because they are what touch the earth.

Mike - I stand corrected.

It all goes back a bit. It was a good 30years ago I was invited, along with my daughters (and other parents and children) to a sweet sixteen. It was in a hotel. there were exotic snacks, a full dinner, a band. Drinks were free, but not crudely served from bottles. They gushed from ever-running fountains. (Yes. i was somewhat above my social level.)

Out here, there was just a party fhat took place for thirty boys in a paint ball drome for thirty boys at 50 a head - plus food, etc.

One thing I have learned from retirement is how many things I really do not need or want. (It has been a slow process).

Somehow, we have to learn what we need, and what we don't need. then, i guess, we learn how to not want that which we don't need. otherwise, simply spending money comes to be the thing we need most of all.

 

 

Hi Neo--- I think you mistaken here----The "church" didn't exist when Jesus was said to have uttered these words. I see the Christ as much more than just a religious leader for the Christian religion, a man-made religion that followed after his appearance. His claim that he had "other sheep that were not of this fold" tells me that his message was not isolated to this small group of men in the Middle East.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Airclean post--When Christ bein  to preach , His church started. John the baptist wittmess that..--

Jhn 1:23

He said, "I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, 'Make straight the way of the Lord,' as the prophet Isaiah said."

--Jesus said to Peter--

	Mat 16:16	Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
	Mat 16:17	And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
	Mat 16:18	And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.

-By what Jesus said here seems to show  The Christ  had already started His church. Also to belong to that church, you would have to believe Jesus was the Christ and the Son of GOD. Christians Believe this . other religions do not.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------You posted---I see the Christ as a World Teacher Who is here for all of us: Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Jew, and every other person in the world. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Airclean --post-- I had a feeling by your post this is some what your Belief was. My belief is also  in the fact, that the teaching of Jesus was for the world . But with my understanding of what Jesus said and His Apostles were teaching Was  that only through Jesus could you find the living GOD.Also with out Christ Jesus you had better not try and find this God . For your sin is only covered through  the blood of  Christ Jesus.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------You posted---But rather the "elect" are the "Elders of the Race", the ones who have struggled and fought their way through the tempations of the world and are now God-Aware. I see each of us, regardless of our standing today, as having this potential. As 'children of God' we all have the destiny of growing in awareness to become the 'elders of God'.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Airclean--post-- I am not a calvins the Tulip. I am of the Rose.  My belief is also in the elect ,God choses  who ever He wills.But my  belief is in, GOD so LOVED the world, that he gave His only son. So  who  grabs  the hands  of Jesus  are coming in also , and we are all to be sons of GOD.None of us have earn are way there . It is by Grace we are saved. So all Glory goes to GOD.From what I'v seen with my walk with God is . You don't earn your  authority it is given by God . He will say what office if any , you have.God called Jesus SON . Befor He went into wilderness befor the cross. God Bless.  --airclean33--

 

Beware of people who think that Jesus preached so that generations could nitpick over the terribly, terribly precise meaning of each word.

"a large silent audience has gathered, after all.  usually there is lively chatter before the evening's diversion.  not tonight.  they have turned out in surprising numbers, but the mood is funeral.  behind the crude lectern, off to a side, stands the curtained puppet theatre.  as natalie takes the vacent seat beside udam, he gives her a little smile that cuts her heart.
 

aaron places his notes on the lectern and looks about, stroking his beard.  softly, in a dry classroom manner, speaking slow formal german, he begins.
 

"it is interesting that shakespeare seems to find the whole story of the Iliad contemptible.  he retells it in his play, Troilus and Cressida, and he puts his opinion in the mouth of thersites, the cynical coward -- 'The matter is only a cuckold and a whore.'"
 

this quotation aaron jastrow cites in english, then with a prudish little smile translates it into german.
 

"now falstaff, that other and more celebrated shakespeare coward, thinks like emerson that war in general is nothing but a periodic madness.  'Who hath honor?  He that died o' Wednesday.'  we suspect that shakespeare agreed with his immortal fat man.  Troilus, his play of the trojan war, is not in his best tragic vein, for madness is not tragic.  madness is either funny or ghastly, and so is much war literature:  either The Good Soldier Schweik, or All Quiet on the Western Front.
 

"but the Iliad is epic tragedy.  it is the same war story as Troilus, but with one crucial difference.  shakespeare has taken out the gods, wheras it is the gods who make the Iliad grand and terrible.
 

"for homer's hector and achilles are caught in a squabble of the greek deities.  the gods take sides.  they come down into the dust of the battle field to intervene.  they turn aside weapons hurled straight to kill.  they appear in disguises to make trouble or to pull their favourites out of jams.  an honorable contest of arms becomes a mockery, a game of wits among supernatural, invisible magicians.  the fighting men are mere helpless pieces of the game."
 

natalie glances over her shoulder at the listeners.  no audiences like these!  famished for diversion, for light, for a shred of consolation, they hang on a literary talk in theresienstadt, as elsewhere people do on a great concert artist's recital, or on a gripping film.
 

in the same level pedantic way, jastrow reviews the background of the Iliad:  paris's awarding of the golden apple for beauty to aphrodite; the hostilities on olympus that ensue; the kidnapping by paris of helen, the world's prettiest woman, aphrodite's promised reward; and the inevitable war, sionce she is a married greek queen and he a trojan prince.  splendid men on both sides, who care nothing for the cuckold, the whore, or the kidnapper, become embroiled.  for them, once it is war, honor is at stake.
 

"but in this squalid quarrel, what gives the heroes of the Iliad their grandeur?  is it not their indomitable will to fight, despite the shifting and caporicious meddling of the gods?  to venture their lives for honor, in an unfair and unfathomable situation where bad and stupid men triumph, good and skilled men fall, and strange accidents divert and decide battles?  in a purposeless, unfair, absurd battle, to fight on, fight to the death, fight like men?  it is the oldest of human prob lems, the problem of senseless evil, dramatized on the field of battle.  that is the tragedy homer perceived and shakespeare passed over."
 

jastrow pauses, turns a page, and looks straight at the audience, his emaciated face dead pale, his eyes large in the sunken sockets.  if the audience has been silent before, it is now as quiet as so many corpses.
 

"the universe of the Iliad, in short, is a childish and despicable trap.  the glory of hector is that in such a trap he behaves so nobly that an almighty god, if he did exist, would weep with pride and pity.  pride, that he has created out of a handful of dirt a being so grand.  pity, that in his botched universe a hector must unjustly die, and his poor corpse be dragged in the dust.  but homer knows no almighty god.  there is zeus, the father of the gods, but who can say what he is up to?  perhaps he is off mounting some bemused mortal girl in the disguise of her husband, or a bull, or a swan.  small wonder that greek mythology is extinct."
 

the disgusted gesture with which jastrow turns his page surprises an uncertain laugh from the rapt audience.  thrusting his notes into hi spocket, jastrow leaves the lectern, comes forward, and stares at his listeners.  his usually placid face is working.  he bursts out in another voice, startling natalie by shifting to yiddish, in which he has never lectured before.
 

"all right.  now let us talk about this in our mother language.  and let us talk about an epic of our own.  satan says to god, you remember, 'naturally job is upright.  seven sons, three daughters, the wealthiest man in the land of uz.  why not be upright?  look how it pays.  a sensible universe!  a fine arrangement!  job is not upright, he is just a smart jew.  the sinners are damned fools.  but just take away his rewards, and see how upright he will remain!'
 

"'all right, take them away,' god says.  and in one day marauders carry off job's wealth, and a hurricane kills all his ten children.  what does job do?  he goes into mourning.  'naked i came from the womb, naked i will return,' he says, 'god has given, god has taken away.  blessed be god's name.'
 

"so god challenges satan.  'see?  he remained upright.  a good man.'
 

"'skin for skin,' satan answers.  'all a man really cares about is his life.  reduce him to a skeleton -- a sick, plundered, beraved skeleton, nothing left to this proud jew but his own rotting skin and bones--'"
 

jastrow loses his voice.  he shakes his head, clears his throat, passes a hand over his eyes.  he goes on hoarsely.  "god says, 'all right, do anything to him except kill him.'  a horrible sickness strikes job.  too loathsome an object to stay under his own roof, he crawls out and sits on an ash heap, scraping his sores with a shard.  he says nothing.  stripped of his wealth, his children senselessly killed, his body a horrible stinking skeleton covered with boils, he is silent.  three of his pious friends come to comfort him.  debate follows.
 

"oh, my friends, what a debate!  what rugged poetry, what insight into the human condition!  i say to you that homer pales before job; that aeschylus meets his match in power, and his master in understanding; that dante and milton sit at this author's feet without ever grasping him.  who was he?  nobody knows.  some old jew.  he knew what life is, that's all.  he knew it as we in theresienstadt know it."
 

he pauses, looking straight at his niece with sad eyes.  shaken, perplexed, on the verge of tears, natalie is hungry for his next words.  when he speaks, he looks away, she feels he is talking to her.
 

"in job, as in most great works of art, the main design is very simple.  his comforters maintain that since one almighty god rules the universe, it must make sense.  therefore job must have sinned.  let him search his deeds, confess and repent.  the missing piece is only what his offense was.
 

"and in round after round of soaring argument, job fights back.  the missing piece must be with god, not with him.  he is as religious as they are.  he knows that the almighty exists, that the universe must make sense.  but he, poor bereft boil-covered skeleton, knows now that it does not in fact always make sense; that there is no guarantee of good fortune for good behavior; that crazy injustice is part of the visible world, and of his life.  his religion demands that he assert his innocence, otherwise he will be profaning god's name! he will be conceding that the almighty can botch one man's life; and if god can do that, the whole universe is a botch, and he is not an almighty god.  that job never concede.  he wants an answer.
 

"he gets an answer!  oh, what an answer!  an answer that answers nothing.  god himself speaks at last out of a roaring storm.  'who are you to call me into account?  can you hope to understand why or how i do anything?  were you there at the creation?  can you comprehend the marvels of the stars, the animals, the infinite wonders of existence?  you, a worm that lives a few moments, and dies?
 

"so the drama ends.  god rebukes the comforters for speaking falsely of him, and praises job for holding to the truth.  he restores job's wealth.  job has seven more sons and three more daughters.  he lives a hundred and fourty more years, sees grandchildren and great-grandchildren, and dies old, prosperous, revered."
 

the rich flow of literary yiddish halts.  jastrow goes back to the lectern, pulls the notes from his pocket, and turns over several sheets.  he peers out at the audience.
 

"satisfied?  a happy ending, yes?  much more jewish than the absurd and tragic Iliad?
 

"are you so sure?  my dear jewish friends, what about the ten children who died?  where was god's justice to them?  and what about the father, the mother?  can those scars on job's heart heal, even in a hundred and forty years?
 

"that is not the worst of it.  think!  what was the missing piece that was too much for job to understand?  we understand it, and are we so very clever?  satan simply sneered god into ordering the senseless ordeal.  no wonder god roars out of a storm to silence job!  isn't he ashamed of himself before his own creature?  hasn't job behaved better than god?"
 

jastrow shrugs, spreads his hands, and his face relaxes in a wistful little smile that makes natalie think of charlie chaplin.
 

"but i am expounding the Iliad.  in the Iliad, unseen powers are at odds with each other, and that brings about a visible world of senseless evil.  not so in job.  satan has no power at all.  he is not the christian satan, not dante's colossal monster, not milton's proud rebel, not in the least.  he needs god's permission to make every move.
 

"then who is satan, and why does god leave him out of the answer in the storm?  the word satan in hebrew means adversary.  what is the book telling us?  was god arguing with himself?  was he asking himself whether there was any purpose in the vast creation?  and in reply pointing, not to the dead glittering galaxies that sprawl over thousands of light-years, but to man, the handful of dirt that can sense his presence, do his will, and measure those galaxies?  above all, to the upright man, the speck of dirt who can measure himself against the creator himself, for dignity and goodness?  what else did the ordeal establish?
 

"the heroes in the Iliad rise superior to the squabbling injustice of weak and contemptible gods.
 

"the hero in job holds to the one almighty god through the most senseless and horrible injustice; forcing god at last to measure up to himself, to acknowledge that injustice is on his side, to repair the damage as best he can.
 

"in the Iliad there is no injustice to repair.  in the end there is only blind fate.
 

"in job god must answer for everything, good and bad, that happens.  job is the bible's only hero.  there are fighting men, patriarchs, lawgivers, prophets in the other books.  this is the one man who rises to the measure of the universe, to the stature of the god of israel, while sitting on an ash heap; job, a poor skeletal broken beggar.
 

"who is job?
 

"nobody.  job was never born and never existed,' says the talmud. 'he was a parable.'
 

"parable of what truth?
 

"All right, we have come to it now.  who is it in history who will never admit that there is no god, never admit that the universe makes no sense?  who is it who suffers ordeal after ordeal, plundering after plundering, massacre after massacre, century after century, yet looks up at the sky, sometimes with dying eyes, and cries, 'the lord our god, the lord is one'?
 

"who is it who in the end of days will force from god the answer from the storm?  who will see the false comforters rebuked, the old glory restored, and generations of happy children and grandchildren to the fourth generation?  who until then will leave the missing piece to god, and praise his name, crying, 'the lord has given, the lord has taken away, blessed be the name of the lord'?  not the noble greek of the Iliad, he is extinct.  no!  nobody but the sick, plundered skeleton on the ash heap.  nobody but the beloved of god, the worm that lives a few moments and dies, the handful of dirt that has justified creation.  nobody but job.  he is the only answer, if there is one, to the adversary challenge to an almighty god, if there is one.  job, the stinking jew."
 

jastrow stares in a stunned way at the still audience, then stumbles toward the first row.  udam jumps up and gently helps him to his seat.  the audience does not applaud, does not talk, does not move.
 

udam begins to sing.
 

udam...udam...udam...
 

so there will be no puppet show.  natalie joins in the chorusing of the tragic refrain.  udam sings his song for the last time in theresienstadt, driving it to a heartrending crescendo.
 

when it ends, there is no reaction.  no applause, no talk, nothing.  this silent audience is waiting for something.
 

udam does something he has never done before; an encore; an encore to no applause.  he starts another song, one natalie has heard in zionist meetings.  it is an old simple syncopated refrain, in a minor key, built on a line from the liturgy:  "let the temple be rebuilt, soon in our time, and grant us a portion in your law."  as he sings it, udam slowly begins to dance.
 

sheh-yi-boneh bet-hamikdash
bim-hera b'yomenu--
 

he dances as an old rabbi might on a holy day, deliberately, awkwardly, his arms raised, his face turned upward, his eyes closed, his fingers snapping the rhythm.  the people softly accompany him, singing and clapping their hands.  one by one they rise to their feet.  udam's voice grows more powerful, his steps more vigorous.  he is losing himself in the dance and the song, drifting into an ecstasy terrible and beautiful to see.  barely opening his eyes, twisting and swaying, he moves toward aaron jastrow, and holds out a hand.  jastrow gets to his feet, links his hand with udam's, and the two men dance and sing.
 

it is a death dance.  natalie knows it.  everybody knows it.  the sight both freezes and exalts her.  it is the most stirring moment of her life, here in this dark malodorous loft in a prison ghetto.  she is overwhelmed with the agony of her predicament, and the exaltation of being jewish."
 

--yiddishe kop aaron jastrow, "Heroes of the Iliad"
 

Blessed are those who live by every word that comes from the mouth of GOD. Blessed are those who walk each day with there GOD.Blessed are those who are granted to be clothed with fine liinen , bight  and pure"For there days are without number.

 

Agreed, especially since he didn't preach in English - lol! All we've got are translations of translations - which are, at best, an educated guess as to what Jesus might have meant.

 

Meant? Hardly. Said.. possibly.

InannaWhimsey: a terribly beautiful and troubling excerpt --  I am not sure why you put it here, but it is a piece that challenges me.  Thank you.

Are you sure about his not4prophet? How can we be so sure what was meant when at times we can't be sure what was said? And even where we do know what was said, how can we be so sure of what we meant?


When, for instance, Jesus said the words “I am the way and the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father but by Me”, He could have very well meant that only through "awareness" can we reach the Almighty. This was, after all, the path that he exemplified with His life.
Christianity has personified this quote to mean that only through the ensuing religion that came afterwards, e.g. the ones that come in His name, can we ever reach the Father. But if you de-personify this truth then it can be understood to be the principle of awareness.


I believe there are many examples that can be shoe-horned into something smaller or different than what was meant. This is the problem with all religions that arise after the subject of the religion has left, we don't have the original source of the subject to ask anymore.


The fathers of Christianity have not only created dogmas and interpretations of what Christ said but even went to so far as to change the contents and sometimes even fraudulently add to the Bible to support these interpretations. This is a known fact.

A good example of how a translation can alter the original meaning can found in this quote from the book of Matthew: - Matthew 24:3, from the Weymouth New Testament


Those words "Close of the Age" have been interpreted in various editions of the Bible as "end of the world" or the "consummation of the world", which totally changes this prophecy. (It was probably changed, imo, because the editors of the edition knew that the word "Age" in this context was too much in reference to Astrology, which they took upon themselves to try to remove from the Bible. Which in itself was and is a futile task, considering the many, many references to Astrology)


How can anyone know for sure what was meant in the Bible when the words keep changing with the differing editions? And even if we did have the original manuscript, we are still relying of the point of view of author who had their own style of writing and invariably added thier own inflection to their words.


One of the biggest mistakes the Church has made over the centuries, in my opinion, is to rely on the "dead letter" of the Bible as the only and ultimate truth. This is why she is so much tormoil today.


The truth is "within you". Seek it there first by perfecting the physical, the mental and the spiritual aspects of your being. Use the Bible and all the other sacred scriptures of the world as "sign posts" on your way to this truth.


If anyone feels that they cannot do this yet, then that's fine, but a word of caution to all those who rely on the dead letter of the Bibles: "judge not", as you may not be in a valid position to pass judgment on those who see the world differently.

 

"How can we be so sure what was meant when at times we can't be sure what was said?"

Assuming what we have at least shows that He taught and came to give us the Gospel of the Kingdom, then that gospel in itself is pretty clear about what He meant. What is cloudy is how mankind has modified to suit their wants. The tradition of man has always been to use God to suit their purposes rather than change to suit His.

Totally agree.


I have no problem believing that Christ manifested when He did. I would add that it was foretold that He would appear at that time in history because it was the time when the Sun crossing the beginning mark of the Zodiac, passing from sign of Aries the Ram into the sign of Pisces the Fish. The "wise men" knew this.


And it sure has been that the tradition of man to be selfish, history is full this, we acted like young children taking advantage of their parents. But the children are growing, becoming self-aware. Mankind today is like a teenager at a critical maturing point in his lifetime. We can either go left or go right. Where the left is the past, mankind could definitely still screw up by not accepting the new and clinging onto the past. Selfishness, arrogance are the ways of the old. Selflessness, humility and service are the ways of the future, as our personalities are about to become aware of our soul individualities. To many these are not the same thing.

double post

oops, triple post

 

Hard to believe selflessness, humility and service as we head into a period of total world domination by one group. Perhaps the change will come with divine intervention against this group as predicted in the Bible, a group who have created a world built on principles that are anti-Christ in nature and out to control us all.

Excellent post, Neo.

 

It seems to me that the Bible is not  just to read aloud and quote parrot fashion. We have, as a species, been given minds to analyse, think and interpret -hopefully guided by the spirit.

 

As such, we're all pilgrims on the road to enlightenment.

 

And wisdom dictates that, wherever we are on our journey, none of us have reached our final destination.

 

This is where faith mirrors science -all any of us can say is, "in the light of present understanding, this is where I stand."

 

IMO, those that "know", don't............

Yes it does.

Consumerism and Materialism is what is referred to when we are told not to worship "idols". Anything that pulls us in a different direction from God is an idol. Anything that is physical and not spiritual is an idol. In small doses and within a range of what is necessary to support life, it isn't a big problem. But when consumerism is our entire reason for being then there is no room left for God.

I don't think the church understands this at all.

Which church? 

 

Some denominations seem to foster materialism, and some do not.

 

Some congregations seem to foster materialism, and some do not.

 

Some church leaders seem to foster materialim, and some do not.

 

Some chuches work hard at pointing people to higher values and to using their resources to help others as best as they can.  When Mennonite tradespeople take 2 to 6 months off from work to donate their time and talents to disaster relief in various parts of the world, I believe they demonstrate the understanding of contributing service ahead of increasing material well-being.

 

Secular Materialism seems to be the dominant idol of our age, but it is not worshipped by everyone.

 

It is important for churches to understand the power of secular materialism and to develop strategies for people to achieve liberation from that power.

 

Secular materialism is the driving force in attracting voters to the "godly party" during this election period to the south. It is an interesting study to see how in a time honoured tradition, people will continually use God to suit their worldly purposes rather than change to suit His. Were they to follow the Gospel of the Kingdom which plainly states (hence the reason for ignoring it) that God is in opposition to the ways of mankind, perhaps then they may achieve liberation. But it is highly unlikely that that is their goal or intention and the sects of Chrisitanity there certainly don't encourage it, having modified Christianity to include politics and economics as part of God's will.

Hasn't this been the case with every president since Jimmy Carter? Seems to me that they've all claimed to be new born Christians of some sort.


Only through the practice of sharing and compassion and the declaring of a sense of brotherhood and sisterhood will we be able to once again set out again on the spiritual path, a path that leads not to materialism and competition but to oneness.


The Age of Synthesis means to draw together, to create a oneness, a unity from the desperate parts. Materialism does the exact opposite. Synthesis is probably "the" one greatest lesson that humanity needs to learn today. "Sufficiency" maybe the keyword to overcoming the lesson of materialism.

 

There appears to be a movement towards oneness but a oneness under a one world financial dictatorship.

But the way I see it, is that the tighter they make their grip the more the faster they are losing control. Time marches on and the changes are coming whether those in (last ditch) power are ready or not. The old ways are simply not working anymore and the financial systems of old are not exempt.


This "recession" we're in simply isn't going to recover. And to tell you the truth, maybe it shouldn't. Any economy that's based on the backs of the 3rd class citizens of the world doesn't deserve to recover. There are, apparently, plans already drawn out on how to rebuild a new style of world economics, one that's based on sharing and justice. But, of course, the old money of the world, the banks, the oil companies, etc, would rather see, at the very least, a return to a status quo, if not a full recovery of the old system.


The occupy movements of the east and the west last year marked out, in my opinion, the beginning of the end of our modern economy. Again, I realize that many are suffering because of this economic "downturn", and it'll likely get even worse over the next while, but one shouldn't put new wine in old bottles. Let's break the old molds altogether and start again new. It's in everyone's best interest, especially our childrens and the poor countries in the world.


The people of the world are beginning to demand change and justice. And the people or the world will win out in the end. It's written in the stars.


Cheers,

Neo.

 

you're welcome -- i welcomed it as a Koan and it has multiple services -- it can be 'aboot' such dyvers things as materialism, Marxism, the self, the imagination and evil...as always, YKMMV

 

Neo...

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/15/new-totalitarianism-surveillance-technology

 

 

only people who regularly engage in informal fallacy should fear nitpicking every word