I just started using Office 2010 and have managed to post this topic three times.  I guess mortified is too strong a word, but it's close.  Please use the latest topic if you want to reply...in the meantime I've beseeched our Wonder Cafe' friends to put two of the three out to ethernet pasture...

Hi DaveHenderson,

Is the number of these people actually increasing?  How can we tell?

Grace and peace to you.

John

The funny thing is that most people I know who object to "Merry Christmas" are Canadian-born. The immigrants that I know personally (mostly South Asian, some Muslim and some Hindu) by and large accept the greeting as part of our culture and respond to it in kind even if they aren't actually celebrating Christmas. They respect our cultural and religious tradtions as long as we respect theirs. IOW, in my experience, this notion that immigrants are responsible for secularization of Christmas is just not valid. Many of them are quite religious, just not Christian. Secularization, in my experience, has been a product of the post-war generations' move away from church going more than anything.

Personally, I still use Merry Christmas as a greeting interchangably with other culturally appropriate greetings. I may not be Christian but it is a part of my culture and I do see meaning in the Christian celebration, even if it isn't the same as the meaning you and other Christians see in it.

Mendalla

i saw an amazing poster on this topic.  essentially, it said 'rather than yapping loudly about 'keeping the christ in christmas!!11!', lets all just try and BE the christ in christmas.'

wisest thing i've seen in a long time.

the second best thing i have seen on this is a photo of han solo from star wars, with the caption 'keep the HAN in HANnukah'.

i'm totally down with that, too.

As a Christian, I wish people a Merry Christmas. I would welcome hearing that back, or Happy Hannukah, or Joyous Eid, or whatever, as long as I thought the person genually meant it. A few years back someone sent me a holiday card with the symbols of all the major religions on it and a message something like "world wide peace to you." That to me was a major ugh. By trying to be everything, the card seemed to me to be really inauthentic.

If you didn't include the words Canadian here I would've thought that this was QED of an evangelical American meme :3

I guess that is just another example of cross-border transmission of ideas.

"We are all Americans" indeed :3

Get the t-shirt :3

This Yule, I am trying to do an experiment, to try not to say the dominant word for the season in my culture for as long as possible and see what happens :3

Christians co-opted the date of a Roman holiday (December 25th), and adopted a pagan symbol (the tree) from a German winter festival (Yule).  Christmas was never 100% Christian - it was always a mashup of celebratory dates and symbols.  If anything, pagans may want their tree back.

We've been domesticated and its challenging to fight against it.  But fun :3

(a big challenge is to be able to discern what ideas are really one's own or those that have already been constructed/discovered and have been 'sold' to us, for good, ill, or otherwise)

We're also all mutts/mongrels.  And that's fun as well.

Chansen --You  forgot  Bah- HUMBUG.

You gotta know there are too few shopping days left until ... you know ... the day we dare not name ... arrives when this old chestnut comes up (once again, as usual) for discussion on wondercafe.  I would leave a comment but I'm afraid I have to rush off to watch re-runs of "White Christmas" ... Bing's stage presence serves as a vivid reminder of just what a constipated time the 1950's actually were.  Why is he holding so tightly onto his belt?  Is he afraid that his pants are going to fall down?  ... or does he think that if he waves his hands around too much the other members of the platoon might get the idea that he's gay?  

In any case, the notion of a traditional Christmas that "forms part of our common  values" is as static and frozen in time as "der Bingle's" stolid manner ... encapsulated by those immobile hands.

It's "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Christmas" for me, no matter what the proponents of political correctness say.

Merry Christmas, everyone!

I'm always caught shaking my head when I read comments about 'the olden days when everyone went to church'.  It all sounds very idealistic and nothing at all like the stories of those times that I heard from my grandparents. 

Have we just invented all this Christmas sentiment?  Throughout history a lot of ordinary people didn't do much of anything to celebrate the season - they didn't all go to church - they didn't all have a strong faith in Jesus -  they didn't all have enough money to buy the food for a huge meal - or gifts - or a tree.  Some of them were freezing cold, some were close to starving, some were drunk, some of the richer ones with a way of getting there did indeed go to church.  Sounds very much like now to me.

My mother's childhood family didn't go to church.  My father's childhod family didn't go to church.  My parents didn't take my siblings and me to church.  More than 50% of the kids in my school didn't go to church. I didn't take my kids to church, and they in turn don't take theirs.

To me it is just a midwinter break - something to cheer us up - Christianity stole ideas from the pagans and now claim them as their own.  If any greeting was used during my childhood  it was often Merry Christmas and that is what I tend to use.  I have zero interest in being rude to a neighbor if they happen to celebrate Hannakuh during the dark days of winter.

I would agree that Christmas wasn't secularized by immigrants; it was secularized by business and consumerism.  Santa sells...Jesus doesn't. 

I say "Merry Christmas" because it's my own personal heritage and that's what the season's name is for me.  "Happy Holidays" feels a little weird in my mouth, much like it would feel odd to call my kindergarten teacher "Marg" even though we're both adults now.  I'm not the least bit offended by "Happy Holidays" though, nor "Happy Hanukah" nor "Happy Diwali" nor any other well wishes.  I think there is room for all of us to celebrate our faiths without any single faith dominating everything. 

At this point, it's more like have another crappy Christmas

Chansen,

You're right of course...but the fact remains that for some 2,500 years, this has been the season of the year that Christians celebrate the birth of Christ. 

Rev. John,

I have no empirical evidence that people are becoming more militant about insisting on Merry Christmas.  It is personal and anecdotal on my part and comes from a combination of social networking and face to face conversations.  I just wish all the folks insisting on Merry Christmas to the exclusion of all other salutations would show up to church and help me warm my pew a little on Sunday mornings ;-)

qwerty,

Too true...look up "stolid" in the dictionary and you'll probably find a picture of the Bingster.   Of course we all look back with rose coloured glasses and even more so with sentimental times like Christmas.  However I stand by my original contention.  A growing number of people are using Merry Christmas as a platform to  blow their bugles...this is the cause for my moan and groan.  And yes, this topic is a chesnut - maybe one that should be roasting over an open fire...

What amazes me is thathere in the USA  I have never even heard anyone say, "Seasons greetings"  or "Happy holidays" during Christmas season.  Its always "Merry Christmas" or (for Jews) "Happy Hannukah." 

I love how I'm technically correct, but because Christianity has co-opted these celebrations since 500 years before the birth of Jesus (clearly with the aid of a time machine), it doesn't matter that Christianity brazenly stole Pagan celebrations and symbols, which makes the Christian aspect of these celebrations arbitrary and cheap.

What calendar do you follow?

AC33, were you really not aware how much of Christmas is actually rooted in pagan ritual?  I dare not begin to tell you about Easter.  You might start screaming.

rAg

 I agree - that's exactly how I feel. As an aside - after I graduated from high school, I had one of my high school teachers ask me to call her by her first name and it was extremely awkward to me.

YES, THERE IS A CEILING CAT!

I used to like Ceiling Cat, but what if it goes past a joke and people start believing in Ceiling Cat?  I mean, if people will believe in Christianity, Mormonism and Scientology, then they will definitely believe in Ceiling Cat.  All over the place, you'll have people cutting holes in perfectly good drywall ceilings, attempting to please Him.  Or is it Her?

I have another picture.  But Internet Explorer (at least with the setting I have at work, won't let me drag and drop).   How tedious.

I guess perhaps now that I am older (60), I have stopped worrying about things that seemed terribly important when I was younger (like arguing about atheism).  It might not affect everyone the same way.  You will have wait to see what side you come down on.

Hi DaveHenderson,

And so?

Could it be that your social networking and face to face conversations happen in a very narrow slice of human perspective?

If so then the view will tend to look the same through everyone's eyes and you will be lead to believe that the reality of the narrow slice is the same reality of the wider segment of society.

If not then perhaps there is a larger issue that needs more careful attention.

That being the case maybe the protest is not so much about keeping Christ in Christmas (since they appear to have little need or time for Christ outside of Chirstmas) but more a protest against change.

Maybe they are uncomfortable with the fact that human society is less monolithic than they remember?  Perhaps they are uncomfortable with the realization that there are other ways of celebrating at this time of the year most of which they are ignorant of (and who really relishes having their ignorance rubbed in their noses like that)?

Maybe the chant of keeping Christ in Christmas is dishonest and what they really should be chanting is, "Let's force everything to stay the same."  If that is so they are using Christmas selfishly and hoping to co-opt the Church in their selfishness.  The Church should rightly refuse to get drawn in to those kind of petty and selfish arguments.

Well, even if the number of people doing it is not factually growing the whole practice is still wearisome.  It generates sonflict which is why news media lick their lips with glee every year waiting for this particular bugle to blow.

How do we combat it?

How can we shut this bugle up so to speak?

Well maybe we suggest that if people are concerned about keeping Christ in Christmas they should hang out with you in your pew all year round.  Heck, I've got some empty pew space here if you need overflow space.  And those we know who are no shows from January to November should be told to sit down and shut up.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Good for you Arminius...and Merry Christmas to you too!

Hi Chansen,

Nothing you have said is new to me, although you seem to have gotten some satisfaction out of letting some air out of poor ACC33's faith balloon....hope it felt good, but it just sounded mean.   

As some have already pointed out, this is an old chessnut.  The only reason I re-introduced it was that I find a growing number of people using the salutation as a political football.

Yes, many Christmas traditions were co-opted from "pagan"  traditions.  However from what I have read, by the time Constantine made is declaration that Christianity was to become the official language of the Roman Empire, a majority of people had already embraced the Christian faith. 

Happy Holidays

Hi Rev John,

One of my key concerns is that many people who are militant about the "Merry Christmas" salutation don't seem to care a fig about keeping Christ in Christmas.  And yes, it would be nice if the Merry Christmas militants  walked the walk to their church of choice on Sunday morning throughout the year.  However I think we both agree they need to be in our pews for the right reasons. 

God bless and Merry Christmas to you...

Hi Jlin,

I hope things improve for you over the Christmas season.  One thing that helps me is trying to remember that life, whether it's Christmas or Wednesday, can sometimes to boil down to how you react and deal with what's going on in you and around you.  I  do what I can to make that a personal reality during my low times.

God bless,

Actually, teasing AC33 that many aspects of Christmas and Easter are stolen directly from pagan celebrations and rituals is actually pretty tame compared to some of my other replies.  He may like it less than my other replies, but at least he (involuntarily) learned something.  Besides, it's only a matter of time before AC33 decides that pagans, like transitional fossils, never existed.

But the point here that others here seem to be ignoring, is that Christmas is not uniquely Christian.  When you steal large parts of your traditional celebration from a different spiritual tradition, to me, you kinda lose the right to complain that other forces are now taking over their meaning.

Hi Chansen,

I haven't been around the Cafe' much lately, so maybe you and this ACC33 fellow wrangle like this all the time.  I'm sorry your mutual dialogue can't be gentler.

I'm not a sociologist or anthropologist.  However I find the term "steal to be too harsh.  At the most some traditions may have been co-opted.  Many others evolved or were adapted.  The tree, long a symbol of good luck in Germany, is said to have been adapted to the Christian Christimas celebration for two reasons; it's triangular shape helped people remain mindful of the Trinity and the fact it continued to flourish through the coldest, darkest time of year was an indication of the eternal life promised by the Christian faith.   Holly had the symbolic consistency of a crown of thorns, replete with red berries symbolic of the blood dripping from the suffering Christ. 

Mistletoe? Well, I guess that's as close to "theft" as you can get.  People puckering up today do so to honour the Greek Godess Saturnalia.   I'm not sure what she was the Goddess of - maybe smooching.

Be that as it may, it was the inanity of such multiple God/Goddess worship that led many to seek the possibility that there may be a single deity - the "uknown God" who was the subject of Paul's famous discussion with the philosophers in Athens in Acts 17.

I like "BE the Christ in Christmas".

I am also a "Merry Christmas" wisher as opposed to a "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings" person.  Part of that is upbringing and the time in history in which I was raised.

Whether Christmas was "stolen" from the pagan's or whom-ever, or not, at this point in history December 25th is day of the celebration of Christmas.  And other days are celebrations of Hannukah, or Diwali, or whatever, and I certainly respect these celebrations (and those celebrating them) and would in kind respond "Happy Hannukah" if greeted with that by someone who celebrates that holiday.

Beloved, you've now proved what I've long suspected -you're the sweetest person in Canada!

Also,

I'm a Planetarian. On good days l'm  a Solar Systemite. On great days, Galaxian,

On spectatular days, I attempt to be a Univeralite, but I keep bumping into Armineus and he wont let me in. Drat. 

A double post. I take it that Fate  decided those who read my astoundingly wonderful post badly want to read it again,

---

A horse esnted a bar. The bartender said "Why the long face?"

---

There. isn't that better than "DELETED"?

Also,

I'm a Planetarian. On good days l'm  a Solar Systemite. On great days, Galaxian,

On spectatular days, I attempt to be a Univeralite, but I keep bumping into Armineus and he wont let me in. Drat. 

Hi HG:

If you are at-one with the universe, then the universe is at-one with you. It is up to you, not the universe.

The cosmos is always and absolutely yours.

In Comic Unity,

Arminius the Universalite.

Actually, there is intriguing evidence that the "Star of Bethlehem" in the f orm of a rare triiple conjunction of Jupiter, Saturn, and Mars appeared in DECEMBER of 7 BC, the most probably year of Jesus' birth.  See Raymond Brown's magisterial "The Birth of the Messiah."  

Tripicate!?

Triplicate!?

"First they cut me off grass, then off hay, and finally water," answered the horse. "Give me a bucket of beer, please."

LOL!  Both of you.  

Yes, it could lead to problems like this:

BUSINESS CAT says:

Hi Sighsnootles,

Working to be the Christ in Christmas.  That is wonderful.  It reminds me of a quote by Ghandi that also hit me deeply:  "You must be the change you wish to see in the world."

God bless and "Merry Christmas, in keeping with the situation."  (Mrs. Dilber from the movie Scrooge)

[quote=DaveHenderson]

Hi Chansen,

I haven't been around the Cafe' much lately, so maybe you and this ACC33 fellow wrangle like this all the time.  I'm sorry your mutual dialogue can't be gentler.

Dave, I am on the Cafe almost every day.  I notice frequent squirmishes between Chansen and AirClean.   Unfortunately it is a very unequal battle.  Chansen is well educated and articulate, experienced in using wit and satire, as well as crueler forms of humour, to make his points.  AirClean is barely literate and has a hard time stringing two sentences together - an easy target.  But AirClean comes across as sincere and honest.   While Chansen comes across as being ------.

Yes, I'm an awful, heartless person.  Tell yourself whatever you need to.  My main point in this thread is that many symbols of Christmas were stolen from other traditions, so when somebody complains that they are "taking the Christ out of Christmas", you have the ready-made reply that Christ had to be inserted into the Yule celebration in the first place, and that Christ's role in the season and the day is completely arbitrary and optional.

Yes, I use AC33 and other WC members to illustrate my points about the dangers and effects of religion.  If your God did not want me to do that, He shouldn't have furnished me with perfect examples of what I'm talking about.  And while my formal education in English ended in high school, and not exactly with the marks that my parents had hoped for, you do make a very valid point that I've been too rough on AC33 of late, who is not equipped to reply.  I can make my points more gently.

I think we are some kind of "kin", Pilgrims Progress !

It's amazing how ingrained this 'Christmas' habit of mine is.  Since 11/29/11 I have said the word without THINKING twice.

But the mindfulness and reprogramming continues.

So I'll be trying to say something akin to Dies natalis solis invicti.

Here's to art as magic and magic as art and magic as religion etc etc etc till world's end and beyond