I'm in complete agreement with MorningCalm/Jae.  Only men should preach from the pulpit.  Having a penis gives a man's words one more leg to stand on.

LOL ...chansen .... I have coffee coming out my nose!

Rita

I didn't read MC's comments in that thread as particularly pointed.  His denomination (rightly or wrongly) employs male preachers.  He may have been looking for the argument by specifically identifying the gender of the preacher.

The reality is, no change will come because of a change of theological position but rather because of logistics.  There will simply not be enough men to fill the role (assuming there are still churches hiring ministers).  In the case of the RC church, there will come a time that non-celebate males and eventually women are ordained.  The theology will then change to reflect this necessity.

Nothing new under the sun...cms

Chansen, sometimes you're too rude.  I know you're out to debunk us all, but you should also be more aware of the sensibilities of others and respectful of our feelings, if not our beliefs.  That's just basic courtesy.

God bless,

Proverbs 31

31 Give her a share in what her hands have worked for,
and let her works tell her praises at the city gates.  

I would think from reading from the Capable Woman in Proverbs that there would be no doubt that Women can preach, lead worship and be ordained. 

I'm going to take the question here seriously. (Although I do appreciate jokes.)

For thousands of years, many cultures have had male-dominated societies.

That has been changing, But it happens at different rates.

Many of the larger religions (Christianity, Judaism,  Islam) still have elements and aspects of favouring men over women.

There are many Christian denominations that only accept men for ministry, and many Christian denominations that accept both men and women.

The UCCan has been ordaining women since the late 1930's, whereas the Anglican church has only been ordaining women for priesthood since the 1990's.

We're all on different faith journeys at different rates. I think it's important to respect that. if we get into a mentality where we argue "My way is right and your is wrong" then we end up attacking each other instead of sharing our ideas and learning from each other.

Yet I see that a lot on the Wondercafe: people attacking and insulting each other over differences of opinion. Then people get hurt and bitter and resentful. I think if we aspire to be true disciples and ministers of Christ, then we need to listen to others' opinions as well as give our own. We need to respect other opinions, and learn from each other.

For myself, I believe that both men and women are called to be ministers. Both have the potential to be excellent ministers (and both have the potential to make a terrible mess of the job as well.)

But I've attended church services in denominations that only accept men for the pulpit. And I don't storm out during the sermon, saying "this is a male sexist pig church!" and slam the door behind me. (Although I was tempted once.)

Worshipping with the male-minister-only denominations allows me to learn from them, and them to learn from me. Regardless of where we are in our faith journeys as individuals and churches, God wants us to respect each other and learn from each other.

Ummm....

Just sayin'.

I appreciate a joke too.

Go, what you post is very true. I , too, do not walk into a place of worship and walk out again because there is not a woman preaching. And cjms has nailed the delemma for some of the churches who are locked in their ways. If there are not enough men, who is going to do it?

I think various faiths and denominations can arrive at different decisions and also arrive there faithfully, discerning the same material.... insulting people or their beliefs is however what many would prefer to do. The need to have a "superior" belief or a "more right" belief has plagued society and religion for eons.

Personally, I completely understand how some arrive faithfully at male only ordination. I disagree but I see how they faithfully got there.... I would only hope they would understand how my denomination and others faithfully arrived at allowing female ordination.

I also understand how some arrive faithfully at barring homosexuals or non-celibate homosexuals from ordination. I disagree and arrive another place, but I understand their journey and arriving where they did....I would only hope they would understand how other denominations faithfully arrived at allowing it.

As penis jokes go, it was very tame.  If it conjured up a mental image of a tripod for you, that's the result of your unclean mind.  Shame on you.

Though, in all seriousness, I have no idea what you're on about here.  Is it because I made a joke with the word "penis" in it?  Would it have been more acceptable to use a euphemism like "trouser snake" instead?  Or is it because I'm essentially mocking Jae's belief that you need a Y chromosome to preach from the pulpit?  He certainly has scripture on his side, as does crazyheart.  All this does is reinforce my common point that scripture is basically useless as a guide, and that if it is "God breathed", it reeks of alcohol.

Jae, I would like to know why you feel this way.

SG's words are very wise in this regard. Folks from different traditions come to different conclusions. 

chemgal, Jae feels this way because of 1 Timothy 2:11-15, for example.

 Chansen,scripture keeps us linked in eternal conversation. (that includes you)

No, the weather keeps us linked in eternal conversation.  Especially if you're Canadian.  Scripture is not eternal.  The bible was completed less than two thousand years ago, and as with other religions and their texts, this one will make the transition to the dustbin of history.  One day.

That presumes the third leg is as long as the other two...

ummmmm, I wonder where Jae is?

And your choice of translation is interesting (NIV). It uses the word "submission" in verse 11, while other translations use other words such as humility (Good News Bible)

As will you and your insulting rationalism.

I agree with Chansen. Scripture can mean whatever we want it to mean.

I agree with Stevie about how people got to the position they hold.

I agree with waterfall that we are in eternal conversation especially on WC

I agree with DKS as he jokes.

I am an agreeable person this morning. I wonder what later today will bring.

I would like to hear from Jae himself.  The timing of this topic interests me, I've just been drawn into issues with sexism in another community.  It's interesting how sexism reaches into such varied communities, religious, work, common interest, cultural.  Is there a community where sexism hasn't been an issue?  Just pondering a little this morning.

Oh my DKS!!!! ..... I had never expected that chansen's initial comment would or could be upstaged!     Two very good chuckles today!

Now back to a bit more serious tone........    I too am interested into looking deeper into Jae's views and in particular why.    I am looking for more than a well rehearsed biblical discourse.     That I have studied extensively and mostly from quite a conservative background.    I am really interested in the personal why......

I shall comment more later.   I feel a topic for another thread developing in my heart.

I am listening Jae ...... please ... lets hear some of the "inside" stuff.....

Rita

Same.  I laughed at both, but DKS's retort was perfect.

On-topic:  The fact that there is scripture to legitimately support either position means that the position one takes is not based on scripture.  Scripture is being used to support/rationalize a position already taken.  Those who put the responsibility off on scripture are not being entirely honest.

In my view, the New Testament  teaches that women can be pastors, apostles, and leaders in the church (despite (1 Corinthians 14:34-36 and 1 Timothy 2:9-15). If it seems necessary, I will later lay out this case in detail.  For now I just want to make 2 disturbing points:

(1) In mainline denominations that have long ago approved the ordination of women, men (and some women) often  tell me, "I could never attend a church with a female pastor."  Yet in our United Methodist conference, there seem to be as many female as male pastors, and yet, there are many churches (including mine) that have never had a female pastor.  At our recent annual conference, one delegate claimed that the decline of mainline churches can be correlated with the dawn of female ordination.  As in  many discrimination cases, the women who seen too stridently feminist unfairly stain the reputation of female pastors as a whole in the minds of many men.

(2) An interesting fact was disclosed years ago at my Aunt Ruth's funeral in Toronto.  She was the first Canadian women to be ordained.  She was ordained in the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada.  But later the denomination repudiated female ordination and Ruth lost her credentials.  Later still, the PAOC reversed their stance again, and Aunt Ruth was again permitted to be ordained.  But they angered my family by insisting ohat she go through the long ordination process all over again.  We objected, "You basically admit you made an error by denying her original ordination.  So why should she have to begin the process from scratch?"  Grrr!

Hey Chansen,

I know it was tame as those sort of jokes go.  Maybe I was too sensitive in my reaction...but for someone like MorningCalm, faith is a very serious and profound aspect of life. 

I'm as up for a good yuk as the next guy - but maybe not at the expense of something held so deeply. 

I know this sounds preachy and I don't mean it to be...I've laughed at a fair number of your bon mots in past.  Wrong time/wrong place for me this time I guess...

I attended a Baptist Church in Ontario that was part of the Baptist stream that did in fact ordain women. In fact, I also worked with an amazing woman who was a chaplain at a hospital where I worked. She had been one of the first Baptist women ordained. At any rate, the congregation where I attended had a male pastor, and would not likely accept a female pastor. They had a guest come to preach one Sunday. It was one of the most memorable sermons I have heard. He basically said that being Christ-like is not necessarily being male. It also means having some of the traditionally female characteristics such as empathy, that Christ had. He went on to say that when women are not fully involved in the church, then we are missing an important voice. It was around then that I decided I could not belong to a church that did not ordain women. I did not care whether it was a man or woman in the pulpit.

I agree with and appreciate Stevie's wise words. We come to our understanding differently. I do believe women can be called, just as men can be.

Believe it or not, I do hold back here on many occasions.  But when MorningCalm comes out of his phone booth dressed as Jae and starts writing the stuff he has written lately, slagging the UCCan for being insufficiently sexist and dogmatic, my internal filter takes a vacation.

It has already returned, preventing me from continuing with the "penis" theme, as it is starting to point in a direction that might be going a little far, so I'm stopping before the admins cut us off.

I didn't realize MorningCalm had a double personality.  Either way, thanks for the restraint, at least in this instance...

Have to admit it, chansen, that's another funny image. At least to me it is!

I have a good friend who is a female Baptist pastor with the American Baptist Church in Maine. She tells me that she still isn't totally accepted within the circles of her denomination, but the very fact that the denomination ordained her and a congregation hired her and that both express appreciation for her ministry seems to give her enough support to keep going in spite of the less than supportive attitudes of some of her colleagues.

The earliest record I have found of a Canadian denomination ordaining women was the Bible Christian Church, an offshoot of Methodism, who ordained women in the 1850's. They worked with their husbands as equals. They started churches northeast of Peterborough, ON, in little settlements like Warsaw. Those congregations continue today as part of the United Church of Canada.

What were you doing during 2009, 2010 and the first half of 2011 that caused you to not notice this?

I must be chat room challenged...(moan)

Did I "challenge" you? That certainly wasn't my intent. You posted something in a different thread that I felt was off-topic and best deserved its own thread. That's all. I'm glad to see that you've started a new one here.

That's the stance of the Fellowship of Evangelical Baptist Churches in Canada. Not all Baptist churches take that position.

We believe that all Christians are called to at least one kind of ministry or another (some paid, most volunteer), but that only men are called to become pastors, elders, and deacons. We do allow for women to be worship leaders. There is currently discussion going on within the FEBCC on the issue of whether or not women should be able to serve as deacons.

My reason for supporting the men-only position is that I believe it is the one clearly spelled out in the Bible.

Some people believe that only men should be pastors (parsons, preachers, ministers, etc.). Others believe that both men and women can serve. The only thing that really matters, however, is what the word of God has to say.

Let us consider together (scriptures taken from NIV, emphasis mine)...

"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. " - 1 Timothy 2: 11-14

"Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap... " -  1 Timothy 3: 1-7

"Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." - 1 Corinthians 14: 33-37

May God bless our consideration of His holy word.

We've never had a shortage of men that I know of. Right now I'm at a transdenominational Christian university and my classes are about 85% men, most of whom want to be pastors.

Thank you Rev. Steven. Yes, that's why.

Sexism is... believing that one sex is better than the other... we don't do that. Rather, we hold to the complimentary view. We believe that women and men are equal, but just different. A woman is not a man, and a man is not a woman, but we are all equal. We simply have different roles to fulfil within the home, within the church, and within society.

It is interesting to look up the history of women in the Baptist Church.  It should be mentioned that Baptist covers a very wide and diverse group while there are distinct groups and large denominations - ie the Southern Baptists and Canadian Baptists, there is no unifying governing body like UCCan.  This reflects the historical origins of Baptists who rejected an authoritative hierarchy and chose instead to grant power to the individual church and congregation. 

According to Religious Tolerance, women began to be ordained in 1920 and then in 2000 the Southern Baptists (arguably the dominate US force in the denomination) decreed that women could no longer be ordained.  This decree led to some churches splitting away from the larger group; they still call themselves Baptists.

According to the Canadian Baptists of Western Canada women have been accepted into the ministry for 50 years and have 37 ordained women actively serving in pastoral roles across Western Canada. Sixteen out of 54 students admitted or applying to Carey Theological College’s new MDiv program are women.

I know that the oldest Baptist Church in Parry Sound has had a female minister for more than 10 years and permitted women deacons long before that.

Morning Calm's Church reflects one aspect of the many faces of the Baptist faith, but it does not reflect all.  Baptists by definition believe in independent freedom of faith.  It is that belief that makes it impossible to pigeon hole any one church.  It is also what makes Baptists both admirable and bloody minded, and very frustrating to those who seek conformity in faith.

LB

--------------------------

An enforced uniformity of religion throughout a nation or civil state, confounds the civil and religious, denies the principles of Christianity and civility,....

Roger Williams (founder of First Baptist Church in America), 1644

"In Christ there is no male or female."

A person in Christ is qualified for ministry, irrespective of material difference.

This Timothy fellow must have been cock-blocked his whole life to develop this contempt of women.

As-salaamu alaikum

-Omni

Really I have no idea how you would get from that verse that women should be ordained preachers. The verse is talking about leadership within the home. A good wife is to be praised at the city gates where her husband meets with the other guys. This has nothing to do with a woman being a pastor/minister imho.

MorningCalm,

sorry, but you are really horrifically ignorant and it is showing again :3  The people here are writing aboot you and your views.

What that derail picture is saying to me is "I, Jae, want to hurt The_Omnissiah".

If you knew anything aboot the history of the Hijab and Islam and Muslims, then you wouldn't have put that up.  I really suggest you really start doing research before you write anything on Islam -- you look like a fool every time you do :3

Your remarks coupled with the picture are very offensive, Morning Calm. You should remove this post.

Not to mention that the contents of the Qur'an are irrelevant to the matter at hand.  It's a useful diversion from honesty, of course.

Are you denying that some Muslim women dress like that? Are you saying the verse I gave is not found in the Qur'an? The Omnissiah suggested that a hero of my faith hated women. It is only logical and very important to ask, then, if we might learn more from O's chosen religion of Islam.

What about my remarks was offensive to you?

Which of these do you find to be most offensive -- the picture of the Muslim women, the quote from the sacred Muslim text, or the putting together of these two elements of Muslim tradition. Personally I would answer neither of the above. I have respect for Muslim people. They are people of the book.

Although my personal belief is that women should be ordained, I'm wondering how fair it is to call MorningCalm to a challenge just for the sake of ganging up on him. His views are shared by many, so why not start an open debate like, "Should women be ordained?" Without naming a particular person. I know the intent was to debate the issue, but I must admit I find it a little offensive...as if MorningCalm was called into a fist fight in the schoolyard..

In another thread, MorningCalm suggested to CrazyHeart that she should start a thread like this. I'm guessing CrazyHeart took that as a challenge - hence the naming of this thread.

I'm not sure where the other thread/ discussion is, I can't find it. The way it was presented on here appeared like a call to battle with someone over their personal beliefs which happen to be the beliefs of the denomination they belong to. It is topic that should be debated, not the person/ people IMO. The topic itself is a good one. Why not just start an open and fair debate about the subject without taunting?

Kimmio, do you feel that some of the comments about Jae have been out of line?

If so, then which ones?  For the most part, the thread has been very civil and respectful.

kimmio, in the thread "Has anyone else ever voted for a minister without being told the person's name" MorningCalm and crazyheart  got into a discussion regarding the ordination of women. MorningCalm suggested that their discussion was off topic and suggested (I would not have interpreted it as a "challenge" but he did make the suggestion) that she start a new thread on the topic. crazyheart has responded to the suggestion with this thread. I see no reason to take offense or to think that MorningCalm is being targetted when this thread was his suggestion.

Having said that, MorningCalm seems to have been being deliberately provocative toward women, the United Church and faith perspectives that differ from his own in many of his recent posts, which is out of keeping with his recent behaviour. He can hardly expect not to be challenged given his recent postings.