No way am I spending 40 minutes of my life watching that, unsafe. If you want to summarize his best points in this thread, I'll demolish them later for you.

Chansen:

I 2nd the motion.

Running scared are we chansen---You Will have to listen to the video to comment on it

Peace to you

People learn as they go through life that some things are worth the time, and some are not.  I have no interest in wasting my time on the link you posted.  Pass on some valid, intelligent and thoughtful points and I'll consider discussing them.

You really have contempt for people here don't you unsafe. Do you honestly think you're going to bring the "good news" to people when your witness is so sour?
That maybe what you believe. I don't pretend to be perfect - far from it - but I wonder if you use Christ to lecture everyone instead of showing Christlike behaviour toward your neighbours, IMO.
AntiChrist my butt. How do you know you aren't?

I did watch the video.

One of the things in the beginning of the video that stood out that he was talking about is that atheists are becoming more angry and becoming less tolerant of Believers.

On the other hand I've noticed that believers, (and I'll include myself in this), when arguing with an atheist, some not all, will shy away from the supernatural aspect of Christianity. Now by supernatural I mean the part that is taken on faith and that which reason can't explain. Debates seem to demand a scientific accountablity even on the part of the theist in order to make a point to an atheist. IMO faith is never going to make sense to an atheist and as much as they like to draw us in on a scientific basis, religion has a whole milieu of the human experience that has no comparison to science.

Some might say (and have said on WC) that there is no such thing as the supernatural that we call God, but that God is natural, but beyond our ability to fully comprehend. So we mythologize around it- believe it's there, sensing it, but without capacity to explain it to everyone who feels it needs a concrete definition. I thought of a metaphor earlier "an ant trying to understand the ecosystem". Even the smartest ant in the world can only know so much. What we don't know, we accept on faith. Even atheists have faith in things they don't know. They schedule their calendars ahead of time that hasn't arrived yet. They have faith that when life gets bad, it can get better. We wouldn't still be alive, if no one had faith in a better tomorrow. In a way, it seems like some fundamentalists have thrown that faith out the window and are waiting for a supernatural miracle to take them instantly somewhere else. It's escapism and it's threatening to the planet when believed in large numbers- because people stop caring. And that, I would agree with atheists on. I just disagree that faith is all bad or that there's nothing beyond us. I believe God exists and God's not a man in the sky so that argument doesn't work on me.

there are no atheists

there are no theists

there are people sharing in the common human experience

bless the countries that have laws and foundations that enable and encourage the deep human rights, of living one's own life, of free association, of free speech, of a free press, of a freedom to redress your government, freedom of personal property, freedom to work, a rule of law that tries for equal justice...etc etc

these rights are worth protecting and need protecting from the various forces that try to stamp them down...

I've noticed that, perhaps, as well...

Why do you think that is?

Part of the herd instinct?  Personality?  Canadian politeness?  Progressive Christianity? Painting one's self into a corner?

Fascinating, nonetheless...

Hi Ninjafaery    your quote    ---You really have contempt for people here don't you unsafe

Defination of contempt  

con·tempt 

 (kn-tmpt)

Hi unsafe,

Potentially we can.  

I think it would be incredibly irresponsible to presume that the source of ridicule directed at any Christian has more to do with the God of this world and not ridiculousness spouted by the Christian in question.

Being a Christian is no immunity against being ridiculous.  Christians can, and do, make mistakes.  Christians can and do behave badly.  I would hope that when Christians face any opposition or ridicule they consider the criticism to determine whether it may or may not be warranted rather than resort to ad hominems.

Scripture teaches us that when the people of God would not listen to the prophets God called upon other nations to chastize them severely.

Had the people of God not been so foolish to ignore God's prophets then God would not have needed to resort to bringing in Gentiles to straighten them out.

Christian wisdom then, would be shown in listening to criticism and ridicule to determine whether any of it is actually warranted rather than dismissing it outright.

Pride still goes before a fall.

Grace and peace to you.

John

hmmmmm .... rather strange ......

I have been watching the news regarding the so called religious right across North America .... the USA in particular......

It would seem that it is theis group that is becoming the most angry and rabid in their response to other groups demanding the same rights that they have enjoyed for two centuries.    They have equated their former socially superior position and privilages with so called God given rights.    When the playing field is levelled and the privilage of imposing their ways on others is reduced they they are the ones that scream the most.  Deciet, untruth, ignorance, wrath, rage, envy and many other ugly things boil to the surface.

What was hidden in the heart is exposed......

This does not seem anything like "the way" that is attributed to the early church.

Athiests sometimes are a form of angry that I see as miffed or annoyed.....

In my experience I have not seen them exhibit the same textures of contempt and peculiar form of simmering anger that I have seen in those of the more literalist crowd.

It seems to me that when the literalist lifestyle is put to the tolerance test that it has a lot of growing up to do.

Of course I expect that there will be those here that will question my faith ...or lack thereof because of this post....

I post this because of my faith ......

Regards

Rita

To be a 'believer' one must include a supernatural aspect, is to me an acceptence of a belief of those who have a tribal God. A 'chosen people' demeaning to all Others...the history of Christianity is so much better known now than say twenty years ago! Still studyin' it . I'm prob'ly a Gnostic--- but they had some pretty wacky ideas, so actually I think I'm a Christian, but in ways and beliefs

===I was about to type 'beyond my ability to describe..'

But a book would do it. Stand by at your favorite book store,,,any year now,,,, 

Mystical may be another way to describe the superatural.

I agree with this, but it seems there are "militant" groups on both sides. Doesn't make anything better knowing that, it's just a shame that if people choose to believe or not believe that we can't dialogue in a more respectful way.

waterfall, what shootings have militant atheists been up to? What beheadings? What bombings? How many fires have we set? Which hijackings? Have atheists been destroying Christian signage, or property?

I'm curious what "militant atheism" means to you.

It's an expression, poetic licence if you will. You're putting scenarios out there that are extreme. I am talking more about the need to actively put down other peoples choices to believe or not believe.

Edit: After looking up the word militant, I can see that it would bring offence to you. Your point is taken.

The cost of online viewing can be high. Rather than pay a company money for forty minutes of video, I can think of causes and things to donate to or things to spend money on that accomplish more in my life for myself and others than watching a video might. For me, it does matter if I would love or dislike the video. Truth is, I cannot afford it, period. It is not usually good stewardship for me. There are exceptions.So, I have to use discernment. This one IMO is likely not worth the cost or the forty minutes of time. If I ask myself if i was given a choice between this video and "Grateful: A love song to the world", I know which I would choose based on title or topic alone. The best I could do with one is feel better about my own self and my own beliefs. The other well it might just be kingdom building. I decide which is which. The choice for me is easy. Your mileage may vary.

I have had the interesting experience of watching my adult children slowly changing over the years.  When they entered the work force they were open, friendly and accepting of all the humans around them.  They were interested in hearing the views and beliefs of people who claimed to belong to a religion, as we hadn't 'trained' them with a belief system.  They described themselves as 'curious agnostics'.

As the years have passed they have become convinced that Christianity has been tainted by Bible quoting idiots.  Attempts to have intelligent discussion with these people has proven impossible and frequently ends with the Christian frantically looking for a suitable quote to disguise their own lack of thought and knowledge.  

They are uninterested in seeking to know more about the religion of these people as it seems ridiculously simplistic and immature to them.  

Do they describe themselves as atheists?  No.  They think they have sufficiently open minds to admit that they, and everyone else, just doesn't know the whole truth.  They are agnostics. Are they increasingly angry?  No.  They just ignore the rabid Christians they meet.

It's hyperbole. It's lying. It's a double standard.

In minutes, you know damn well I can produce dozens of examples of atheist property being damaged or stolen, examples of Christians trying to limit rights of others, of threatening others when they don't get their way in court. I can produce letters from atheist and gay teenagers who are afraid of what their parents will do if they find out. I can show that religious institutions are more interested in their own reputations than the welfare of children. I can point to bombings and killings done in the name of God. When we think of militant religion, no one has any problem coming up with these examples, either. You know them as well. So when we think "militant Christian" or "militant Muslim" or "militant Jew", we all know what is meant.

And then people, like you, refer to "militant" atheists, who what? Write things in books and on the Internet that you don't like or agree with.

Are you starting to see why atheists can be so pissed off with Christians? We're not the militant ones! Just because we shred your arguments, does not mean you can lump us in with militants.

My kids are like that too Kay. It's the same way as I was when I was their age.

Thank you. I wrote the above before your edit, but it has nothing to do with my offense. It was just massively incorrect and a blatant attempt to bring atheism down to the level of religion.

I suppose what I meant to say is that I find there are extremes on both ends. Now I'm talking North America here. What I'm observing is that fundamentalism can become nasty but so are some atheists with their aggressive "put downs" towards those who believe. It doesn't cause dialogue, just a one upmanship, that becomes frustrating.

I'm part of that generation. You can talk to people my age (or younger) and my social circles and pretty much count on them not being religious, or interested in religion, even if, culturally, they come from very devout communities.

I also deal with a lot of older people who decry the building of mosques and temples. Lovely folks. Misguided at best, they worry that Islam is taking over. My point is, if you talk to second generation children of muslims, lots of them just aren't interested. Their parents have to beg them to go to Friday prayers. What's going to happen to Muslims is what's happening to Christians - the kids are embarrassed by the worst elements of the faith, they just don't care, and many plan to not continue with the faith after they move out.

I'm under no delusion that they are going to be like me and speak out against faith. They just don't care. And that doesn't bother me in the least. I have no issue, at all, with people who say they do not know. The best we can do is have a society where people struggle with decisions and evalute their options with reason and experience and with the aid of real mentors, not ancient superstitions.

Atheists have been criticized for years by the religious, and accused of the worst things and overall immorality simply because they do not believe. Only in the last few years have our numbers reached critical mass where people can criticize religion without fear of reprisal, and only in some circles and geographical areas. Um....yeah, there is going to be some pent-up frustration and zingers. That does not equate to "militant", no matter how hard you try. It only makes it worse really, to say that my sarcasm is equivalent in any way to what anyone thinks of when they think of militant Christians.

I'll say it again: Christianity has earned the push-back and the barbs and the zingers that are flying at its expense. It deserves more than it has received. Some day, this sort of thing will be unneccessary and be seen as "piling on", but that day hasn't happened yet.

So those who believe and are good and kind with their faith should all be viewed the same? I would say the majority of Christians fall under the above category and yet you use a broad brush to paint a dismal picture.

What I fail to understand is why do you denounce the bullying and yet employ the very method you speak out against?

Hi Inna:

What do you mean there are no atheists, and there are no theists?

I am an atheist. And a theist. And I am.

There will always be aspects of reality that defy logical explanation. If, as I believe, the ultimate state of being is one of nonduality or synthesis, then ultimate reality can't be explained in logical terms and concepts.

Although ultimate reality can't be explained in logical terms and concepts, IT is there, and IT is perfectly natural! IT is the ultimate state of being. IT IS.

I AM

-God (according to Moses)

The TAO that can be told is not the TAO

-Lao Tsu

And yes, I agree with waterfall. Experiencing IT is often called "mystical experience," but there is nothing supernatural about mystical experience. Some people may term it "supernatural" because it is beyond the scope of our everyday illusions, but it actually is perfectly natural. Mystical experience is an experience of reality as it realy is.

Depends what you mean by Believers. Are you and unsafe Believers? Are you guys the best kind of Believers? Are other Believers besides your kind of Believer doomed to eternal torment in hell? 

The truly New Atheists are theists who also are atheists. Theists in wolves' clothing, if you will. Or atheists in sheep's clothing.

Atheism in the name of God, eh?

Just thinking about the posts from certain people and events in my life.  When things have been hard there were often people who helped in various ways.  The majority of these people have been the non-religious.  Frequently the most useless comments came from those who claim to be Christian.  

I agree Kaythecurler, which is why I believe the Christ Himself would not be very impressed with the religion created in His name.

Waterfall, when all active members of federal parties start getting blithely labelled as "militant Conservatives", "militant Liberals", etc...then the term will have been watered down enough to justly apply the term to people you disagree with.

Christianity has a massive PR problem. You have complete assholes waving the flag of Christianity, trying to deny rights to people, telling people who they are allowed to sleep with, what they should believe despite the science, and generally being anti-intellectual asshats. The common response here is to let Christ's light shine through your own deeds. Problem is, that "light" looks exactly light the light from the average agnostic or atheist. There is nothing exceptional or newsworthy about going though life, trying to do the right thing.

So, the common thing people think of when they think of Christians is somewhere in the Bermuda Triangle of unsafe, airclean33 and MCJae (or his online persona). I know there are many who are not like that, who don't think God spoke to them through a Tim Horton's cruller or wants them to yell at crying pregnant girls or tell young men how perverted they are while dreaming of the type of sex they're having, but while you're doing your best to live a shining example of the life Jesus would want you to live, your religion has been hiacked. And the people speaking out against the factions of  Christianity which are clearly larger than you want to pretend they are and have completely taken over the definition of what it is to be a Christian today, are the atheist and secular organizations. Because while asshat Christians are shouting their accusations, you're whispering your denounciations.

There was, in this thread, an attempt to paint God as something that the bible itself does not portray God to be. There is a strong desire among Christians, to present a God who is better than anyone. That doesn't jive. You're actually better than your God, but you refuse to admit it. That's how little I think of Christians - I think you're better than your God. Of course, most non-serial-killers are as well, so the bar isn't especially high, but if you want another compliment, then I can say that you're just as good, and bad, as the average atheist. In practice, there is very little separating us. The difference is that when Christians think God is actually speaking to them, the results can be catastrophic. And because Christians who think God speaks to them or through them did not arrive at their positions through reason, reason is not an especially effective tool to deal with them.

There are plenty of theological discussions that I don't care about. The nature of God?!? Whatever - don't care. I popped in here when the spectre of blood sacrifices came up. I'm not especially nice about that stuff, because it's not a nice or benign idea. It spun off from there, and now I'm the worst person on Wondercafe again, which is odd, because I'm not one of the ones threatening people.

NEWS (just so you know): 

Mega-pop star Justin Bieber, who has been vocal about his Christian faith and has admitted to some of his weaknesses, said while he is talented, he is what he is because a forgiving God had a purpose for him to help others.

"I think that's part of the reason I'm here," the 19-year-old Canadian pop star said when asked about God's role in his life, during an interview with Teen Vogue.

"Not just because I'm talented, but because God had a purpose for me to just help people," he said in the interview that will appear in the magazine's May issue. "I'm spiritual... although I slept in [and missed] church yesterday. I haven't been to church in so long, and I planned on going, and I slept in. I was upset. It's all good. God forgives me," The Hollywood Gossip, which has published excerpts of the interview, quoted him as saying.

The Ontario native was raised in a conservative evangelical environment and reportedly got saved and baptized quite young.

Hi revjohn     your quote     I think it would be incredibly irresponsible to presume that the source of ridicule directed at any Christian has more to do with the God of this world and not ridiculousness spouted by the Christian in question.

revjohn ---you have every right to believe as you do -----I believe scripture not you ----this is what the Bible says about Satan's job ---all thoughts that are not from God are from Satan ----Period -----You will speak what you have come to believe -- 

Satan was in the Garden ---got to Eve through her thoughts ----now you have every right to believe different ---that is up to you -----

This is what God's word says  ------Jesus is speaking here revjohn ----Don't have to be a theologian to read and understand this scripture ----

When we are not doing God's will for our lives ---we are doing Satans will for our lives -----

Another scripture ----your thoughts either come from Satan or God ----

Now you can argue until the cows come home ----but --Satan attacks the mind ---and his job is to keep you from God which is exactly what the Atheist believes ---the is no God -----Satan has just won with the Atheist ----is all -----

I leave you with this last scripture ---

Grace and Peace to you revjohn ----

Just to clarify, you're aware that atheists also think that Satan is ridiculous, right? Would it make it better if I also renounced the Dark Lord, to whom I have devoted my life in perpetual servitude in an evil plot to deceive Christians?
.
Wait....ignore the above!

Where is Jae these days?

He started making reasonable posts. He was probably recalled by his church for reprogramming.

Hi revjohn    your quote   

  I would hope that when Christians face any opposition or ridicule they consider the criticism to determine whether it may or may not be warranted rather than resort to ad hominems

Your quote    Christians can, and do, make mistakes.  Christians can and do behave badly--

Carnal Christians can ---you are right there ---Why because they have not renewed their minds to God's way ---Carnal Christians still have their old sin residual nature way of thinking ----your spirit is renewed but your mind isn't  ----Satan still has access to you through your thoughts ----

your quote     I would hope that when Christians face any opposition or ridicule they consider the criticism to determine whether it may or may not be warranted rather than resort to ad hominems

Any one who is in Christ can be sure they will be facing opposition and ridicule --Christ faced this so why wouldn't we face this ----Scripture is clear on this one

John 15

English Standard Version (ESV)

The Hatred of the World

^18 (AL)“If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. ^19 (AM)If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because ^(AN)you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. ²⁰ Remember the word that I said to you: ^(AO)‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, ^(AP)they will also persecute you.

This is what Satan wants us to resort to is  ad hominems --

-this is his hook ---emotions ---logic and reason are all worldly ----

This is God's way to handle ridicule ---not by logic or reason --but by Grace ---Grace is sufficent --it has power ----

This scripture you quoted is all about God fulfilling His will ----He stirred up the spirits of the jews and  Cyrus --to do what He wanted ----

Peace and Grace to you

I've snipped this part of John's response to unsafe, because it needs to be repeated. If you think that an atheist can never criticize a Christian, you are once again opening your faith to obvious ridicule, even if you can't see it. There are countless examples of Christians behaving badly, and atheists have as much right as anybody to call them on it. More, when the bad behaviour is at the expense of atheists.

This is one more area where Christians are absolutely killing Christianity, because the hypocrisy is obvious to any child, even if it isn't obvious to you.

Hi unsafe,

And how does the observer notice the difference between a "carnal" Christian and a non-carnal one?  Are you a carnal Christian or one of the ones that no longer sins?

But by whom will we be opposed and ridiculed?

What happens when that opposition and ridicule comes from other Christians?  How do we differentiate the carnal from the non-carnal then?

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi revjohn     your quote  ---    What happens when that opposition and ridicule comes from other Christians? 

We do what God tells us to do in His word ----forgive ---treat bad with good ----count it all joy ---and let God deal with the person or persons -----  Ephesians 4 v 31-32

Your Quote       How do we differentiate the carnal from the non-carnal then?

The Natural Man and the Carnal Man both think the same as the Carnal minded persons thinking has not changed and remains in opposition to God's way of thinking ----The Carnal Christian has a renewed Spirit only ---- so the Carnal Man like  Natural Man can ridicule others because he still is ruled by the flesh ----The Spiritual Man will not resort to judgment or ridiculing others as he or she wants to please God and follow His Character ---- 

 Romans 8:7 describes this power struggle perfectly. Human nature puts its own cares and interests above God, and the result is that the carnal man will not submit himself to God's clear commands. The carnal man will be willing to harm, even kill, another created human being to protect his own interests, in spite of God's law and Jesus Christ's striking example to the contrary.

Peace and Grace to you revjohn

Hi unsafe,

So what I hear you saying then is there is no possible criticism of Christians either by non-Christians, carnal Christians or other Christians.  We should simply ignore any and all opposition and ridicule because Christians cannot be wrong or ridiculous.

I hope that is not what you intend.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi revjohn   ----the only way a person can offend you is if you let them revjohn ----

Your Quote   ----or other Christians. ---there is no other Christians revjohn ---not in the bible anyway ----your only a Christian when you accept Christ ----to renew the mind is all about maturing in Christ and that is up to each person to do that ---

And around the mountain we go ----- you just keep using words to keep this going on and on and on ---getting and going no where ----pointless to me ------

I leave you with these ---from God's word ----up to you to put them into practice ---God can't do that nor can anyone do that --only you can do that yourself ----Give it to God ---all stress is gone from you then ---Satan is behind ridicule not God ---God's Grace is strong in our weakness ---  This is what I believe and I do ---you have every right to believe and do as you like ----

Peace and Grace to you revjohn

unsafe - do you belong to a denomination that stresses the advice to use a person's name as frequently as humanly possible?  We have a chuch like that in my home town - my friends and I find efforts to converse with them frustrating, hearing your name over and over inhibits meaningful conversation, I think.  any of the people attending that church don't seem to converse much in real life - but they know how to spout Bible verses.

Have had Net problems due to Toronto's recent storm. Actually even yet owe someone yet a v. Santa present (sorry on that one). Plans are to get caught up tomorrow afternoon.