Hi crazyheart.

I've gotten stuck on the "new heaven" part also,  I mean heaven is heaven you would think! why does it need to change or become "NEW" and again it might be the way it is symbolized as "All things made anew."

Because Christ has defeated the enemy which is Satan who is characteristic of the "Dragon" and the "Beast" as the Anti- Christ and the False prophet who will delude many by way of false miracles and antichrist sets himself up on the throne of God as the "Abomination of Dessolation." He will apparently be a demonic influenced politician of sorts and will perform many "signs and wonders" to decieve many from the "true God."

He himself will survive a mortal wound aswell.

Revelation even scares the crap out of me sometimes, it is pretty good fiction... if one wants to consider it as such, but well made and better then what stephen king can come up with. 

Start in the gospels to get an idea of Jesus as one who loves and offers a better life more abundantly.

I look at it maybe like the atrocities, all of them, throughout history... every action thought word will be righteously dealt with by God.

According to the book the "Devil" is a Loser in the end and the "enemies of Christ will be a footstool for Christ"

Satan has been defeated already, but broken he isn't.

he is a prodical son, who has been instructed, just like us.

He is sorry for all that he has started, & is now repentant.

Lucifer is a son of God, who has lost his way, yet has been instructed to be that which is intended from the start.

A son in who He is now pleased with, & forgives.
 

Godly instruction extends to all creation, not just us.

Bolt

Well, you two, now I am even more confused.

The devil is a loser, and he's my bitch.

I think Bolt is referring to the former Lucifer who ws a beautiful angel among Gods heavenly realm until he was "cast down" out of heaven because he wanted to be compared like God in rebellion . He went into the underworld and roams the earth as opposition to all that is holyness of God. 

At least when I open up that book called the bible thats what I read and understand.

Isaiah 14:12- "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations." 

In the thought of the time to create a NEw Creation would mean a new heaven and a new earth.  THey were two parts of one whole, remembering that the cosmology of Scripture seems to suggest a three-tiered world of underworld/Sheol/Gehenna then Earth then HEaven.

Is this a new revelation?

Hi crazyheart,

The enemies would be those individuals who actively persecute the Church as a whole and Christians in general.  At the time of writing it is most likely that Christianity had been outlawed in the Roman Empire.

Satan is the accuser.  His job is to point out the many ways that humanity in general and humans in particular have fallen short of the standard of perfection set by God.  He is the prosecuting attorney and will request a death penalty if his case against whomever is successful.

The congregation(s) to which the letter is directed.  Those who are afraid for their lives because their faith challenges the status quo of Imperial Rome.

The victory is when only one kingdom (God's) is left standing.  Some posit that as a battle royale scenario, others see it as reconciliative.

When God proclaims that it is finished.

The new heaven and the new earth are the redeemed heaven and earth where there is no veil separating each other.  Generally comparable to heaven and earth prior to all that trouble with humanity falling short.

Grace and peace to you.

John 

If you're struggling with Revelation, you might want to look at the "The Brick Testament".  It is a hilarious recounting of many stories from the bible, using Lego bricks.

http://thebricktestament.com/revelation/

There really are some great images in there.

I think the most healthy way to treat Revelation is as comedy.  You can expand that approach to the rest of the bible as well, as a way to sanitize the nasty bits.  Except the boring parts, which will never be mistaken for comedy.

Hi craztheart:

If, as I believe, we create our own heaven or hell here on earth, then "the new heaven and and the new earth" of Revelation is a metaphor for creating heaven on earth. When the majority have chosen to create heaven on earth, then it will be completed.

"Satan" would be a metaphor for anything that causes us to create hell on earth. And, if we are among the "faithful people" who create heaven on earth, then the perpetrators of hellishness would be our enemies.

I wonder....

Does Satan not know how to read?

LOL I wondered this myself.

Bolt

Based on this prayer

• "heaven" is where God is, and where God's will is done
• we want to bring forward the time when God's will is also done on earth ("kingdom of God")
• while we look forward to that time, we depend on God to supply our basic needs
• while we look forward, we fail in our responsibilities, but we believe it is God's will to forgive us, and so we forgive all who have failed us
• while we look forward, we need help to avoid (or need to be rescued from) all that is now preventing God's will from being done on earth

When I oppose God's will, I am an enemy of God. (Obviously. That's just what "enemy" means.) That's why I need forgiveness, need to avoid temptation and need to be rescued from the power that evil exerts over me.

Of course, you know all this already. My point is that Revelation, which (like everyone else) I find extremely hard to understand, includes a basic message that is not so different from the Lord's Prayer, which people seem to find much more comfortable.

Being lost & being a loser may mean different things to different minds.

Bolt

RevJohn - clear - amen amen amen

John, thank you for your clear analysys. Could you tell me what you think of this for today's reader of the bible?

I'm also hoping for a New Car, its gotta be in scripture somewhere .

Help me please Bob Barker, unlike God, Bob said only if the price is right

Good thing I don't oppose God's will then. I'd sure hate to be an enemy of God.

What do you think it's like for me?  I spend my days dodging lightning bolts, city busses, and the occasional meteorite.  The dude plays hardball.

Then stand still.

I wondered if you were a bus driver.

Well. I'm a teacher but I have a few friends who are bus drivers who owe me a few favors.

As they say, a friend is someone who will help you move.  A good friend is someone who will help you move a body - of an atheist he also killed for you in your capacity as a true Christian.

You DO UNDERSTAND!!!!!!!!!

Yep, religious nutcases can be a murderous lot.

My brother in law has a t -shirt that reads:

Satan is a pussy.

Today's newborn babies could live to see the 22nd century.  Past predictions of the future have usually been wrong and the future could be beyond our most optimistic dreams or our most horrible terrors of agony and despair.

As for ideas on the meaning of the book of Revelation I get the impression that there are a lot of websites and books that try to explain it, sometimes as a support for political positions.

Anybody want to make a movie on "The Revelation" complete with CGI special effects?  That would be very controversial, maybe even more than "The Passion".  It might be offensive to community standards. 

Okay . This scripture is coming up in the lectionary in a few weeks. So  how do you look at this so that it relates to today?

I see the enemies of the Lord as being anyone and anything that goes against the spiritualization of this Earth.

Those who are not the enemies.

When a majority of those on the Earth are spiritually polarized.

Soon. I hope!

The spiritualization of this Earth. That is, when there are enough people on this Earth, representing the Mind of God, who are God and Soul aware then this will be like a Heaven on Earth, or a Spiritualization of the Earth, or a new Heaven and a new Earth.

Hi- Neo I would agree with you. I have never heard the word Spirtualization used like this.It is how I see my belief with God.I noticed you did not explain ( Saton) Perhaps you would. Airclean33.

Hi crazyheart,

That would all depend upon the context they operate out of.  I expect that today's reader in the developing world would have a slightly different interpretation than today's reader in the developed world.

Being as simple as possible then, Revelation is not (NOT) not about God's vengeance as is more commonly portayed in literalistic interpretations but rather Revelation is about God's triumph and God's protection/redemption of God's own people.

We, the people of God, do not need to be afraid of anything coming down the pike because God has our backs.  We may suffer stuff.  God is still our God and we are still God's people.

Our enemies, and they are legion, are those things which get between ourselves and God.  They are external to us and they are internal to us.  Whatever they are they will be overcome.  They will be overcome by fire of refining which will strip away all that is false (detracts from our relationship with God) and leave only that which is true (adds to our relationship with God).

Our enemies are real, in that they actually exist, the symbolism employed by the author does speak to certain times and certain persons.  Today's readers can understand that original meaning or they can seek to recast elements in the place of those long dead originals.

For example, the principal bad guy while the Revelation was written would have been whomever was Ceasar at the time.  For today's reader it might be some internal boundary issue (doing things that one actually does not want to do instead of the good that one ought to do).

The ultimate message of the book of Revelation is the triumph.  The new heaven and the new earth are what God desires to give to the people of God, they are not the heaven and earth we seek to create for ourselves.  In the new heaven and the new earth the people of God experience wholeness and peace in all parts of their lives.

Pie in the  sky when we die?

Decidedly not.  The book nowhere counsels the people of God to sit and wait for it to happen.  It is something that comes upon us, without much warning, as we do our routine stuff.  We cannot trigger it no matter how much we may long for the new heaven and the new earth to be realized.  They will be when they will be.

And as much as we cannot trigger the events we have even less ability to avoid them or prevent them.  Those who are hostile to God will not win the day because of their great activity in persecuting God or the people of God.

So what is the book about?

It is about hanging in there.  Knowing that God is ultimately in control of everything.  It is God who sweeps the stars from the heavens, it is God who turns the moon and the rivers to blood, it is God who unleashes the plagues.  Scary stuff to be certain, and the reality is probably scarier still.  None of it happens without God's assent and none of it happens until God says it is time and none of it happens to those that God protects.

The great multitude in the white robes are the people of God.  They have been redeemed out of each and every nation, in each and every time and each and every worldview.  God knows them all and is capable of keeping them safe.

It makes great scary story material if one focuses on the scary stuff.  The scary stuff is incidental not primary.  

Revelation is primarily a love letter to the Church.  In essence it has God saying, "No matter what, I will not let go."

That message applies to today's reader living in a personally induced misery as it does to yesterday's reader outlawed for their faith.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Thank you John. This is helpful.

Greetings!

Every time I check out the posts on this thread I start singing in my head "I see a new heaven, I see a new earth as the old one will pass away, where the fountain of life flows and without price goes to all people who abide in the land.  There, there on the banks of a river bright and free . . . " (I See a New Heaven VU#713).

Hope, peace, joy, love ...

Me too, beloved

Rev. John,"Revelation is primarily a love letter to the Church.  In essence it has God saying, "No matter what, I will not let go."

I love this!

Any description of Satan changes depending on your point of view. On a personal level, RevJohn describes this well when he says that "Satan is the accuser.  His job is to point out the many ways that humanity in general and humans in particular have fallen short of the standard of perfection set by God.."

But on a more objective level Satan can be summed up as the "forces of materiality", as opposed to the "forces of spirituality". And since, presumably nothing can occur in the Universe without God, then God must be accountable for both of these forces.

Let me explain, and I'll first quote from some of the new age teachings. Everything is energy, be it good, bad or indifferent. Everything is made up energy:

The Bible first introduces Satan in the Garden of Eden where he is tempting Eve to consume the forbidden fruit. Why was it forbidden? Because in order to remain perfect Adam and Eve needed simply to "observe" with the mind and not become attached to it. Consuming the fruit was the ultimate act of "attachment". And herein lies the secret to salvation.

Attachment is like a "snake without eyes", to become attached to anything is to fall into the trap of the mind, the "cyclic evolution known as Karma".

In today's world the "forces of Satan" have found a new medium to express itself, and that is in the realm of "commercialization", a phenomenon of greed and attachment that's affected all nations. Examples of contamination of food and sterilization of seed crops all in the name of commercialization compromises and threatens the welfare and health of humans everywhere.

The new creed of the superpower has become the economy, which is the soul of commercialization. Although politicians believe that commercialization is the future of the race, it's an energy they can't control.

Again, I quote from the new age teachings:

Neo,"But on a more objective level Satan can be summed up as the "forces of materiality", as opposed to the "forces of spirituality". And since, presumably nothing can occur in the Universe without God, then God must be accountable for both of these forces."

Isn't that like blaming your parent for everything? Why should God be accountable for our choices?

Waterfall, I'm not blaming God for anything. I'm just stating that the positive and negative forces in our Universe, on all levels, are part and parcel of the same Whole. How could they not be?

It's up to us and what we do with these forces. So if anyone is to blame for evil in our world then it would have to be us, because we have been given the free will to choose.

What is materiality and why is it a bad thing?   We all need material so survive and our bodies are material.  Food, water, oxygen, and the material we need for clothes and shelter are essential.   All the serious problems we face in this world have at their root causes economic and material concerns.  It's either about scarcity of essentials or an abundance of poisons and nowhere to dispose of them.

In my opinion, it is a lack of awareness of the material of the Earth, the biosphere, and a devaluation of human labour that is the problem.   

The material world in itself is not such a bad thing, until that is, we become too attached to it and begin to identify ourselves with it. Money isn't the root of all evil, but the want of money is. Money is like manure, says a wise Indian sage, piled up it rots and stinks, disabling anything from growing in it, but spread out across the fields (ie sharing) it makes things grow.

I fully agree with your opinion, it is the lack of awareness of the material of the Earth, the environment and how we treat our fellow human beings that is the problem. The starvation in the world today is an atrocity that's happening before our very eyes. The future people of this world are going to look back at this time with astonishment and wonder how we could ever have let this happen. Our own relatives are thrown into the streets without shelter, food or any hope of a good life. This, as a result of budget cuts and the economy, is the type of evil that I'm talking about, its an example of the "satanic forces" that stalks our society today.

But sharing the worlds resources is not something that the large corporations, the banks of the world and the very rich want to see happen soon. This would mean to them a loss of power, but this is the type of materialism that I'm referring to.
 

Hi Neo -Thank you for your answer. I will read it 2-3 times to undersand it .But I think we are close in thought. I believe  Man is 2- parts the fleash and the spirit.The fleash or will of man will not bend to Gods will .The part of man that is spirit is Gods. We are a part of God, for God is Spirit.The part of us that is spirit must take control and do the will of God ,to be one with God.This is what I Believe. I also believe Jesus was teaching this.          Airclean33 to God Be The Glory.

Yes, that's it. However, I would add that the part of us that is flesh will also one day "bend to God's will". That is what the Great Renunciation of the Crucifixion is all about: "Thy will Father, not mine".

In order for us be perfect again we must align ourselves, i.e. our little wills, with that of the Great Lord. This is how we become part of the great Plan again, that is the plan to spiritualize physical matter.

We need to establish correct a relationship between the Self and the spirit, mind and body, this is what matters. And establishing this relationship can be accomplished by living your life with "sincerity of spirit", "honesty of mind" and "detachment". These are the panaceas of being human and is something that everyone can do, regardless of religion or ism. It's something that can have almost immediate results if in all our endeavors. Nothing, I believe, can you get you closer to becoming One with the Lord.