I believe that everyone has the right to their own religion, be you Hindu, Jewish or Muslim. I believe there are infinite paths to accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior.

- Stephen Colbert

Hi somegalfromcan,

I think that it is more budget cutting measures than anything else.  With so few non-Christians in jail it is probably a logistical nightmare to move Islamic prisoners all across the country just so they would have access to an Islamic chaplain.

Now if Christianity could manage to get sent to jail at the same rate as non-Christians I'm sure the Federal government would happily chop Christian chaplains.

To tell you the truth I'm surprised they didn't chop them at the same time because chaplains for prisoners is pretty soft.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I would think that either we cut all and admit to ourselves that spiritual expression and counselling is a low priority, or we provide all prisoners with some type of guidance in their faith.  To expect a Christian chaplain to be able to provide spiritual help to a Muslim or Wiccan, or person who practices Native Spirituality shows little sensitivity or understanding.  Some might be able to do it; some prisoners might accept it, but for most - I think not.  It seems to me that it would be hard enough to cross denominations, and to have a female UCC minister provide communion for either an RC or a Pentecost would be hard for some to accept. 

We need to get our priorities strait.  What are we trying to accomplish in prison?  If it is rehibiliation and release of aa person to be a productive member of society, we need to loosen the pursestrings and provide necessary services. 

How about we don't pay for anyone and let the prisoners call there own personal spiritual leader. Prisons have counsellors on staff anyway.

I understand the goverment must lower cost.As a Christian I like the idea of Ministers in Christ are left to teach all. As a Canadian I believe the right thing to do is cut all programs not just some. The faiths and those in them can if they want pick up the cost for there members if they wish. Or to be fair , possbly all faiths could put something in the a pot and we could all see,what can be done.

How about cutting the chaplains and giving lessons in basic honesty and kindness  instead?  (Tongue in cheek!)

I think the Christian Chaplains should act as Christians and tell the truth to the minister and all Canadians  about their ability to serve the needs of Jews, Muslims, and others. 

They (or there reps)should tell us if the chaplaincy is of any benefit to Canadians in jail, and if this impacts on society as a whole.  

They should answer the questions very soon.

Counsellors and chaplains do have some overlap.  But a lot of stuff that does not overlap as not all counsellors are trained to deal with theological or spiritual questions.

Let's remember that people aree in prison for a long time.  It's not like weekends in the local jail. 

I certainly would not want to go without communion for years on end; to never attend a worship service in my faith tradition (or one closely related); to have no opportunity of confession if I were RC; to never be able to talk over basic faith questions with my chaplain.  To hear that my mother or brother has been killed in an accident or shot during an altercation, and not be able to talk over my sorrow, rage, and doubts.    I imagine it would be the same if I belonged to another faith tradition. 

I would call this action a racist one, as it isn't race based.  It is discriminatory though.

I question some of the stats in the article.  100% of prisons identify as Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish, or Sikh?  None identify as athiest or agnostic?  There is also a high proportion of First Nations Peoples in jail.  I wouldn't be surprised if many of them haven't kept up (or never had) with their traditional religion, but some of them probably have.  I'm not sure how those various religions would be classified though.

Here's a different version, details are different.

It's saying that ALL the part-time chaplains are being cut.  There is only one non-Christian full time chaplain though.

http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/cancellation-of-non-christian-prison-...

It sounds like the whole system could use a bit of updating.

It seems to me that if there are going to be cut-backs, they should be the same across the board - each faith tradition gets cut by a certain percentage. What I would rather see is the government entering into agreements with congregations or regional governing bodies (and/or the equivalent with other faith traditions). Here's an example:

We have two jails in Victoria: The Vancouver Island Regional Correctional Facility and William Head Federal Penitentiary. In Victoria presbytery, we have almost 20 congregations - 16 of which are in Greater Victoria. Between those 16 congregations, there are over 20 ordered ministers. Perhaps the government could have an arrangement with a local congregation where a minister (at least one, maybe more) could at least be on call for pastoral care when needed.

I wonder if military chaplaincy will be the next to get cut?

You are right - race isn't the best word (it was just the best one I had in my head at the time). Discrimatory is a much better word.

Somegal, I agree with the congregation idea.  As long as someone is willing to come and an inmate wants it, I do think they should have their choice of any religion, even if they are the only person in that prison with that particular religion.  Maybe cutting all the chaplains as a position and having some reimbursement money for the chaplains as they are requested would work?

Just to list the percentage from the original article, in case it is changed:

58% are Catholic.

- 30% are Protestant.

- 7% are Muslim.

- 3% are Buddhist.

- 1% are Jewish.

- 1% are Sikh.

That's what I was thinking too. There would also be some mandatory training required.

Just a point - not to debate the cutbacks - but chaplains are there full time and get to know their "congregation" whereas on call chaplains don't.  This is a real difference that suggests on call is less than what is needed.

The question is whether value added comes with the full time chaplains and their very existence in an institution.  As has been pointed counsellors and chaplains bring similar gifts but the chaplain is value added.  This is a question for all institutions.

I agree prisoners should have access to chaplains of their own fathr traditions.

These chaplains must be specially trained.Prison protocol is pretty strict for a reason. Taking a letter in or out for a prisoner is forbidden no matter how much it seems like doing a loving deed.

I have not worked in a prison-but did do a student placement at a Provncial Pyschiatric Hospital-that included a wing for the "Forensic Patients". Some jails do have Occupational Therapists.-or at least did 5 years ago-I haven't checked lately.

Many chaplains have specialized "interfaith" chaplaincy training.  While their own faith is strong (some but not all may be ordained or the equivalent), their own religion is not imposed on those who request their presence - they are skilled in discerning spiritual needs and concerns and redirecting/linking to one's own faith leaders when appropriate, and desired.   In my experience, some folks with a crisis of faith actually prefer to speak with someone outside their own religious community.  And many folks are unaffiliated with any church or formal religion - but still seek spiritual counsel.  So it is complicated.

I agree as Pan notes above, chaplains are an important steadying presence, to all within the walls of an institution, not just necessarily prisoners, or patients, but staff as well.  They often provide the training for spiritual care volunteers coming into an institution, and provide coordination of spiritual care services provided.  They are sometimes too the 'moral compass' in situations where ethics are challenging.

I sincerely hope each of our institutions will retain at minimum one full time interfaith chaplain - it's such an important role.

Hi seeler,

I'm not convinced it has to be an all or nothing solution.

And yet multifaith Chaplaincies exist in Hospitals without our suggesting that the Hospitals are ignoring the spiritual needs of patients.

Possibly we do.
 

Looking at the Sikh numbers (just under 1% of the Federal inmate population or less than 150 prisoners across the country).  How many had access to one of the Sikh Chaplains who had their contract cur?  The Feds did not cut one Sikh Chaplain per prison.  What is the dispersion rate of Sikh inmates among all Federal Prisons?  What percentage of those less than 150 Sikh inmates actually had access to a Sikh Chaplain?

In order to provide faith specific chaplaincy a full compliment Chaplains would need to be hired for every Federal Prison (There are 76).  So, if the dispersal rate of Sikh prisoners was equal among all 76 prisons the ratio of Sikh Chaplains to Sikh inmates is 1:2.  Is that an acceptable ratio of Chaplains to inmates?  If so then that ratio needs to be in play for all faiths.  Which means that for 15, 000 prisoners we would need 7, 500 Chaplains.

I think that ratio is a little bit high.  I have no idea what the optimal ration of Chaplains to inmates should be.  

Of course dispersion rates are not likely equal so where there are higher populations of any given faith you could move (in theory) the chaplains around or (another theory) move the inmates closer to the chaplains (which could isolate them from their families).

So I think that while the multi-faith chaplaincy may not be the best solution it is probably the most economically feasible solution.  If the average annual salary of Prison Chaplains is $35, 000 then increasing the Federal Chaplaincy pool to 7, 500 Chaplains represents an overall expenditure of $262, 500, 000.00 which is well above the $3, 342, 500.00 currently being paid to the 71FT and 49PT Chaplains.  (all figures presume that FT pay is 35, 000 per annum and PT pay is 17, 500 per annum)

I think it is also important to point out that Corrections Canada is cancelling 49 part-time Chaplain positions which ratio wise is almost 2 Christian Chaplains cancelled for every non-Christian Chaplain cancelled so it is doubtful that the cuts are religiously motivated.  Of the 71 full-time Chaplain positions that remain only 1 of those positions is filled by a non-Christian.  If that one non-Christian position had been cut then it would certainly look like the cuts were religion specific.

The optics are bad.  Make no mistake about it.  49PT jobs cut is painful to hear.  When we recast that as every non-Christian Chaplain is cut then it sounds diabolical.  Particularly when the full-time non-Christian chaplain wasn`t.  How does it sound when we say that for every non-Christian Chaplain cut the Feds cut two Christian Chaplaincies?

I'm pretty sure that cancelling the contracts of 49PT chaplains will not represent a great savings to the whole of the Federal Budget. 49PT x $17, 500 = $857, 500.00 and that is 25% of the salaries paid to all Chaplains based on the numbers above.  So while not that big a deal to the whole budget it looks significant in a department budget.

Why the huge discrepancy in numbers for the full-time positions?  Is it indicative of the deliberate suppression of specific faiths?  I wonder how many Chaplains of United Church origin would be in the system if across the country there were only 150 members of the United Church in prison?

The numbers may be skewed simply because the prison populace is skewed.

Now, when one of those FT Christian Chaplains leaves that Chaplaincy position should be open to all applicants.  If that doesn't happen it would certainly make religious discrimination more likely.

I'm not a Conservative supporter and I do think that there is some short-sightedness happening with this decision.  I don't think it represents anything more than a dollars and cents decision though the outcomes are very unbalanced representation wise.

If the Minister was not insisting that all FT Chaplains would become multi-faith Chaplains then it would be hard not to say that the move was motivated by religious discrimination.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I agree - and understand the difference. I also think that at least having some connection to someone from your own faith tradition would be better than none at all.

I beg to differ. I have served as a part-time chaplain in a forensic psychiatrc hospital. You do get to know your congregation. And, over time, an on call chaplain also gets to know a lot of people and staff. Especially the frequent fliers. I have also found that denomination is largely irrelevant among Christians in that setting. 

David, there is a difference between on call and parttime.  Yes part time can work.

The other thing to remember, folks, is that institutional chaplains are trained to be interfaith.  Some better at that then others.

So can on-call, especially in a longer term setting like a prison.

So are part-time and on-call chaplains. At least in this part of the country. And yes, some are better than others at it.

I was just reading over on Cbc news that the government's goal was not to cut out all the non-Christians, but rather to cut out all the part-timers.

I'm not a big fan of the outcome - I think there should be some kind of chaplain contact for at least each of Canada's major religions.

I was just reading over on Cbc news that the government's goal was not to cut out all the non-Christians, but rather to cut out all the part-timers.

I'm not a big fan of the outcome - I think there should be some kind of chaplain contact for at least each of Canada's major religions.

Hi MC jae,

I'm not a fan of the outcome either.

I think it just indicates lack of foresight and perhaps forethought rather than an attack on non-Christian religion.

Grace and peace to you.

John

The Canadian Forces did that two years ago with Civilian Officiants.

I think that there is a good point that chaplaincy is more than providing communion for Catholics, or denominational support for prisoners who feel that women should keep silent in the Churches. It is about having the training, knowledge and inclination to have the specific career field of professional pastoral care in which a non-denominational and interfaith approach is taken.

Having only "Christian chaplaincy" is either a misnomer on the part of journalists or a lack of understanding on the part of the current Government who is bent on expanding the correctional system, not decreasing the need of inmates in isolated institutions for visits from clergy of their own faith, who have to travel a long way to reach these places, not in from town. Chaplains do what they can to address the spiritual needs of all prisoners, not just those who come from their own faith tradition, and any professional chaplain should, but that doesn't mean that clergy from prisoners' own faith traditions are less needed than before. 

Are people not aware when they talk of counselling, and other programs in prisons, that this government has greatly expanded the role of incarceration in the criminal justice system of Canada, and all estimates expect the prisoner populations in both Federal and Provincial institutions to increase, not decrease? Mental illness in prisons is already an unaddressed problem in the prison system. Decreasing the number of "outsiders" like security cleared, but unaffiliated part-time and on-call chaplains from the community is a good way to keep problems under wraps.

To ascribe these cuts to innocent "cost-cutting" alone is naive. Nothing is done in the "tough on crime" Tory government without its moralistic, authoritarian, and  evangelistic ethos motivating it. This move is part of their strategy that has no truck with such practical or evidence-based concepts as prevention of crime, harm reduction, or rehabilitation that is not based on grace and repentance. The United States has lived the fruits of punitive/retributive criminal justice alone, and the largest prison-industrial complex the world has ever seen may be examined for the future of the Conservatives criminal justice philosophies. This is one small example of their start. 

Hi arachne,

To presume there is more to it than that is to demonize.  I'm sure somewhere in between these two polarities there is a place where genuine discussion can be found.

Is it easier to believe that the Tories are willfully evil rather than short-sightedly stupid?

While I would agree that this move falls into their tough on crime sentiments I don't think that they even pretend to be gracious or even hopeful that inmates might come to repentence.  Which doesn't mean that this is part of some master plan to torment inmates and satisfy their vengeance itch.
 

Locking folks up and throwing away the key is very clearly within the reach of their ethos.

And since they do not hold the "criminal class" in something even so high as contempt every budgetary nickel and dime that they can cut from the Corrections budget makes their expenditures look slightly less than the spend-thrift liberals they claimed to despise and be so much better than.

Grace and peace to you.

John

For my part I have no intent to demonise, this decision to me is still another demonstration of how this governement works.  Now I do not believ the minister or MPs said cut out all none Christans, but that the civil servants who do make these kinds of decisions are looking to make cuts and changes that will please their political bosses, and minimise cuts that will cause them to have a lot of flack from Conservative voters, and those identified as potential conservative voters.  Prisioners in genral have few supporters, and they tend not to be Conservatives, non Christans prisioners have even fewer supporters than them, and so it will cost almost nothing politically. This is the same story of the system and governments  neglecting groups of people becasue they are marginalised. I suspect that the opposition parties will mount no defense  or a weak defense in comparsion to other cuts.

I do suspect that the change or cuts ended up worse than they would have been if it had not been for the publicity surronding the hiring of a Wiccan Chaplin, and than the backtracking on it. Forcing the civl service to rush with a decision before they had time to consider all factors. Regardless if the decison is aimed at part time chaplans or non Chrstian chaplans, the end result is the same. and is discrimatory towards other groups

But first may I say  it is irrelvant that more Christian Chaplins positions were cut, because the issue is about the needs of prisioners, and all non Christans positions were eliminated. Christians still have access to full time chaplains that belong to the church.

Secondly i suspect that Prison chaplans can not be compared with Hosptial, or military chaplans. The miltary and people in hosptials are only confined for mcu shorter periods of time. Many prisoners serve 25 years or more, and in prisons that are far from their original communities, and in communities where there are no clergy, or even members of their faith. Think of a Jewish montrealer serving time on the North Shore of the St Lawrence, in a prison built to stimulate the economy in Mulroneys riding when he was PM. 

Third it could be just becasue it was less costly to the governement in the short term, that part timers were eliminated, but I had always thought due to the lesser benfits, pensions etc, 2 part timers working one full time job is less expensive in the long term. (i May be wrong,) But it is certainly not more expense in the life time of the employees.

Something that gives me pause, is that  churches (and their equilvants) have been the biggest advocates of prisioners. So I would hope to see some reaction from church groups, and congregations.. Howerv the above statistics released by someone (governement) about which groups are in prision is wrong, or not so clear cut.  There are at least 4% of the prisioners who practice various forms of First Nation religions, and they are excluded. This can be proven simply by the continue employment of First Nations healers by the government. Howevr they are often non Christians, and many actually practice a mixture of Christianty and traditional religions.

This leads me to want to wait and see what the largest churches in Canada will do especially the Roman Catholic Church, but also Anglicans the United and others who ran residential schools.  Which I believe, along with other parts of our treatment of First Nations, produced the community devestation that has resulted in lthe high numbers of First Nations people, relative to other groups in prisons today.

Are Chaplains and First Nations Healers doing the same thing.  Perhaps some of what they do overlaps, but what does not. Perhaps for large numbers having both Christian Chaplains, and First Nations healers matches their needs, in a way that reflects how they mix the two religions/belief systems.  Howevr many have left Christianity altogether, and many survivors still walk with Chrsit but will not consider talking to Christians affilated with the "western" church,  of which the Chaplans come from.

I am not well informed as to what Prison chaplans do, so I am left with questions that I hope will be raised by those who know more than me. 

Howerv if chaplains deal with non christans, and they deal with other issues. Why can there not be non Christans doing this work. There are actually more prisoners who are atheist or of no religion (20%) than there are Protestants (18%) There are also 5% muslims, 8%  according to one report. I believ the descrepancy comes from what is call a Muslim, Christian, or.. I suspect that the stats that account for more Protestants and Muslims, and no First Nations relgions, are using a cultural definition instead of a religious definition, so that someone who has not been in a United church since they were baptised as a baby and has been an atheist for most of there life is called a Protestants, and that tFirst Nations people are likely put in with the Catholics, becasue they were batised, even through they do not belongs and follow either a mix religion or something altogether different.

The non religous, due to having higher numbers than Protestants in Prisons and First Nations, migh be able to deal with what they get in services from volunteers like Jews, and Muslims, and so we should  expect (sooner now, as they will have supporter from different faiths)the non religious to question the legitamcy of the entire chaplaincy program, in a court case and that funding for all Christians chaplains be cut, and replaced with a secular program.

Hi Alex,

And unintentional demonisation is acceptable then?

Which, if it is truly going to be Conservative is about cutting expenses.

But what Alex?  They either said to cut them or they didn't/

So we domonise the bureaucrats?

For the time being perhaps.

Well if weak defence is equal to demonizing others Liberal MP Irwin Cotler has already done that.

Well, if Towes was willing to can 48 other part time Chaplains just to get rid of 1 part time Wiccan chaplain that would hide discrimination against Wiccans.

Respectfully if the decision is to get rid of all PT positions then the bias is only between FT and PT employees and not on the basis of creed, colour or gender.

When making allegations of discriminiation it is very relevant that Christians were cut at a rate of almost 2 to 1 over non-Christians.  If only the 19 non-Christian Chaplains had been cut and the Christian Chaplains had not then the appearance of discrimination based on creed is very difficult to defend against.

If the one non-Christian full time Chaplaincy had been cut then again, it is very difficult to defend against the appearance of discrimination.

Whether multi-faith chaplaincy is ideal or not it exists and Towes has stated that all remaining FT chaplains will function as multi-faith chaplains.  This happens in the Armed Forces without our claiming it is discriminatory and it also happens in many hospitals without our claiming it is discriminatory.  In order for allegations of discrimination to stick we need to see that non-Christians are treated differently than are Christians and that simply doesn't show.

All PT Chaplains, Christian and non-Christian are cut.  Unpopular move?  sure.  Discriminatory?  No.  The cuts were without prejudice.  All FT Chaplains, Christian and non-Christian are secure for the time being.  No discrimination in that.

Maybe, maybe not..  The numbers look as if there is one FT Chaplain for each Federal Prison.  Since there is one FT Chaplain who is not a Christian it stands to reason that all Christian inmates at that particular prison do not have access to a full time Christian Chaplain.

That non-Christian Chaplain is still their Chaplain.

Also, some of those Christian Chaplains will be Roman Catholic meaning that every Protestant in the prisons that Roman Catholic FT Chaplains are assigned to does not have access to a full time Protestant Chaplain.

That non-Protestant Chaplain is still their Chaplain.

And military personnel based in Afghanistan have a higher-life expectancy than a prisoner held in a Federal Prison?  What about patients diagnosed with terminal cases of cancer?

There will be some differences in the chaplaincy because of the nature of the institution that the chaplaincy is attached to.  None of that automatically makes faith specific chaplains vital.  They woiuld always be preferred.  As pointed out above the Federal Government is not going to fund a Chaplain for every possible faith at every Federal prison.

If the Federal Government refuses to hire non-Christian applicants who will be seeking to replace the current FT Chaplains as they retire or resign then there is a case to claim discrimination is happening.  Firing half of the Christian FT Chaplains, just to hire non-Christian Chaplains would be discriminatory (decision based on faith position).  And even when parity is achieved it will mean that all Christian and non-Christian FT Chaplains need to be available to any inmate in the prison that they are assigned to.

I cannot help with the question of benefits.  If the PT Chaplains were truly cheaper I would expect that from a fiscal point of view it would have made more sense to cut the FT Chaplains and create twice as many PT positions.

Actually Alex, the figures I have seen include the 4% of federal inmates who ascribe to native spirituality so they have not been excluded.

Since none are funding any of the 71 FT Chaplains I suspect there will not be much of anything other than empty words.  If the RC, Anglican and UCCAN went to the Government and said that they would each fund 71 FT Chaplains they would be able to absorb most, if not all of the Christians already in FT Chaplaincy.  The vacancies created could be dedicated to non-Christian traditions.   It would only cost each denomination $2, 485, 000.00.

There is one FT non-Christian Chaplain doing that Alex.  There is no reason why there cannot be FT non-Christian Chaplains.  The Feds are not going to fire Christian Chaplains just to make room for non-Christian ones.  That would be discriminatory.  They will make all future Chaplaincy positions open ot all faiths.

Which may actually have been the case for the 71 existing FT Chaplains.  They may not have been hired because they were Christian.  They may have been Christians who got hired because only Christian were applying.  If that is the case where is the discrimination?

I suspect that every inmate is asked about their religious preference and the Feds tabulate based on Prisoner response rather than guessing.

Grace and peace to you.

John

No, I am saying that the way the system works, and the way that many civil servants work, which also happens evrywhere else, means that they  have a tendency to come up with solutions that address the immediate problem, (how do we make our Boss happier, or less angry, and what are the right decisions/prposals that we need to do so. ) and usually the immedate solutions is not the same as a solutions that looks at the bigger issue, and in a more long term, or historical approach.

Many would rather take a look at the real problem, while some just do not care. Those that do can not see how they can do so, because they need to work with others in the governemnt to do so, and it also takes time. To see through the right decisions, and ensure follow up, and than to the positve results often takes longer than the average 2 years a federal civil servant stays in her job before being moved/transfered/ to another job.  

Knowing how to get goverment workers at the upper management level is a major challenge evrywhere. Howevr keeping people in senors jobs for longer than 2 years would help. 

Also discovering some sort of way (which may be possible with new technology) to involve Canadians in an equilable  (as opposed to the usual, political, labour, and business crowd) would help.

The same things happens with other governemnts. I was an organsor during the election that saw Rae elected, in Ottawa Centre. Our MPP was a prominant MPP, and I went into the elction office the morning after the elction. The office imedately starting recieving calls from people wanting to know what she believ in and wanted. (that after campaining for a month and being in the Legislature for over 12 years) The were many civil servants, and I believ they saw they job and their standing on being prepared, and that was about having proposals new programs, or expanding existing ones. 

Have you ever notice in Ontario that the old OHIP card has  red, the new OHIP one is largely  green, and the old driver license is blue. 

That was because they were first produced under governments formed by parties using those colours. During the eighties, and ninties the NDP used green, Liberals red, and PCs were blue. No minister said make these cards those colours, but I am sure it is more than a coincidence, and that the civil servants thought it would make the bosses happy, and I am sure the ministers did not say anything or object, because it did, or because they did not care about the colour.

That is how much of the civil service and elected officals work together  Sometimes 

 I do not know of any other group of employees where evryone is Christian, (or all but one)

usually when a group of governemnt employees, belongs to a single demographic which is not very representative of the population, that in and of it self is proof, of a bias in the hiring or recruitment process. There nneds to be a real look at reforming the program. The fact they are not reflective of Canada today, makes me suspect it has not been looked at by the government for a genration or two for needed reforms.  Not knowing anything about this program, I would suspect that a new vision to match todays reality could not only make it more equitable, more effective, and less expensive as a result. I like your idea of letting the churches employ the chaplins along with other relgions and the non religous, with the government providing funding if it seen as contributing to the greater good, which I believ it is. 

However it is in keeping with many of the layoff happening in Ottawa.  Real saving could be had by reform, but it seems the governement and senor managers are not ca[able.

This one cut, along with the Science ones, seem to be among the worse, because I know that the public does not know or care about what is involved, and that not only prsioners will be hurt, but Canadians as a whole if it affects the ability of prisoners to return to society.  

Is there something that smells here of non-tolerance towards variable religious paths in a land that brags of freedom of religion when most people fear what they haven't a clue about?

I like the concept of understanding all tongues ... what could define a larger belief system than that as known by mortals ...

Causes ripples in my bowels that might be defined as a giggle about what morals do not know ...

A sin in the temple as farse ID art ... creating in unseen form ... as a choice for the others not to know what I'm speaking of ... when what I speak of is planted in generations of ancient intellect ... a strange knowledge to presnet attitudes on ancien genres ... varied spirits of soul ...

Did the Hebrews believe in an unseen Idealism ? Was beyond eM too ...

Now does mental convolution have anything to do with genre (an old word for spirit) a dark and flighty thought oft unwelcomed in a realm that worships emotions as desires alone ... leaving us grossly devoid of some things ... to which there must be another side ... like God's face ... a cheeky father that would use reverse psychology to teach his offspring about too much spirits! Love Potion #9 from Vat 7? There's an alternate desire ... in-the-cups sort of depression ...

In prison the officials try and beat the spirit out of people that are of great confidence they can get away with anything ... a contageous dis ease to say the least about those without role models to a differing action ...

Then have you looked around at what social order has done to socialism? We are all for isolationism and old Hebrew conception about turning the Shadow persona Luce in the wilderness ... that person was once known as a' Brae Ham ... a dark image to say the least if you peer into the icon ... he too drew lines in the san ... certain commonalities and shared character across time that we don't get? Some call this ich, ick, or Ithchii ... like the mind ... where as a'thinking people are dangerous to the desires ...

But people cannot even put several strings together in the minor context of WonderCafe ... they are too divided in their beliefs ... can't get eM together for consideration or conception of anything other than fixed ... improperly steer'd or just Ba'aloch'd ... like stuck in a particular state of mind ... neutered of conception? Outside powers are rumured to giggle at confined situations ...

There's athe aught ... however latent ... cools faster at the fringe ... hoery Zoan functions! Mortals can't stand such ankh until put though paces ... makes eM wonder ... outside the Bo'Que's formations ... the beyond goes on as myth ...

Did you know that neither Romans or de Ju's that followed ... accepted beliefs in nothing nor infinite ... just refused to go there ... you can see it in their script ... no zero or infinite in the Roman Script ... and they circumcised it inGreek to allow for a new beginning as alpha ... some churches insist on ID not knowing what's involved in that sort of tango'n ... a dark Dan's ... akin to all-that-is?

Now there's a collosal incident in spatial abilities ... then God knows how to construct self-destructive souls ... so he won't have to dirty hands handling destruction and spend all the time creating elsewhere ... that we don't have a clue about ...

It could all be a myth, or otherwise beyond us ... believe nothing but what's at hand and be prepared to floe/role with the tides and winds ... approximates (sic) fluid emotions ... close to thoughts ... that are lighter than dark hearts ...

This from our new Moderator today ...

http://www.united-church.ca/files/communications/news/releases/121015_letter.pdf

I'm having a lot of trouble reconciling that when the end result is that a lot of religions had some form of representation prior to this decision, and now effectively, only one religion does.
 

In the end, that's what it comes down to, and when you're one of the religions that has been stripped, it's hard to look at it as a function of just percentages.

Hi Witch,

A lot of religions had representation within 73 federal institutions.  A lot of religions were never serving all prisons.  It is doubtful that all non-Christian religions were being served by the non-Christian theology of their choice in all prisons.

I lift that up only to point out that what existed before the cuts was also effectively a denial or prison population reality.  A decent solution would have been to increase the non-Christian chaplain positions.

The political reality is that the Conservatives believe in the tough on crime approach and chaplaincies do not fit.  Add to that the fiscal responsibility of cutting revenue (taxes) and spending like the drunken sailors they accused the Liberals of being and the Conservatives have dug a deep hole that not even their support base is going to ignore.

Cuts across the board, as part of a fat-trimming exercise are the first visible sign of doing something.  So, the part-timers go.  Again roughly 2 Christians for every 1 non-Christian.  Those are the means and the means do not present as an attack on non-Christians they do show a bias against Christians so why do it?  Because it is typically only fuzzy Christians who vote liberal or ndp who think chaplaincies are necessary in prisons.

The full-timers are safe, for this round, and politically that is a bonus to the Conservatives because even if those 70 Christian chaplains are soft and fuzzy UCCAN types the optic of Evangelism only chaplaincy also speaks to the Conservative Christian base.

It is a cynical, political move. 

I appreciate the optics.  At present I find them to be ill-concieved, short-sighted and mean-spirited.  I don't find them to be deliberately attacking religious freedom or expression.  As the Christian full-time chaplains (now, with the stroke of a pen Christians who are mutlifaith chaplains) retire will they be replaced?  One would hope so.  Who will they be replaced by?  That is where we will need to look to be certain of religious discrimination.

If, there had been 100% faith representation at 100% of federal prisons and the only chaplains that had been cut had been non-Christian that would have been an obviously blatant attack.  I suspect that the Justice Minister didn't even look at who the part-timers represented.  He just trimmed the first piece of fat that he saw.

Which is not me saying that the ends justifies the means.  It doesn't.

It is me saying that I think the Minister is more stupid than he is evil.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Its almost an illustration of having faith in nothing ... but the Christian conception that comes to be Law by elimination of the smaller guise ... guile-Heh-aD? Near to a bo's une but the bosun has not been positively identified any more than string theory that is a mote've thing ... like water difficult to grasp raising another metaphor of anabaptist again...

Christian by Law! Does anyone have any idea about how Christ felt about temple rule? In Roman Law we're not allowed to ask, or know anything about that! You do know that thinking men are dangerous ... why intelligence is beyond the bodean wiles ... a rather rough satiyr ... thinking ghosts are the devil!

We just can't have that can we? Then if we have unknown words can you imagine hidden Light? It goes unspoken ... or something that isn't ... the unscene? You'd have to conjure a bit ... then what appeared to be ID went all to pieces ... like; well I won't say it here ... its ineffable among those that think they have a grip on the infinite ... a farse IDe plasma ... Rosevelt knew about those holes as emotions and do you know how difficult it is to address emotions? They dip and weave, warp and travel all over the place like a wayward wind ... in a land where truth is not well-respected ... they sometimes pop up as myth of a thought that would like to be something but is nothing but a negative emotion off at ninety degrees!

I was told by ministers over breakfast this morning again that thinking is unnecesary here, and that I was found to be too complex for their processing pattern ... that perhaps a message was projected that I should shut up! Did you know that a metaphor of projection is salient if you know the word ... that's a god of sorts, that a hot-winded earthy God (Augustine) said wasn't necessary and his troops set out to oppress literacy ... something that was once an idealism of the church; a metaphorical God! Idealism is like that but not quite here yet ... until you hear the call of the wild ... that's ath'ought! They come as contamination of emotional dimensions!

Did you know how many books the Romans burned or excluded from the collective we call humanity, or social media ... a fluid carrying power of secondary nature to what mortal Gods carry ... but as a weaker force to emotion is beta' ...

One must enter abstract space to collect this ... dark absorbs better than things that Light bounces off of ... why our pupils are dark and the caves of our ears ... leads to something else again of  complex construct ... fatty tissue ... burning as excluded in the desert of the sol'? Nothing gets into it without a myth or story attached ... modern neuro theory ... that can't be proved! did you know in religion there is a lot of confusion over the whereabouts of sol' whether its in the heart, or psyche ... mined you this could lead to some digging to be recognizant of the fact that it is something indeterminate like the root of "i"! IÐ's sort of an internalized foggy issue ... real people don't like us to gotheire ... 3 monkey law!

On the other hand it can be obvious that people accept such rediculous things as mis-truth ... just observe the obtuse surroundings ... do they not appear thoroughly fogged by alien satire? Never Love a Stranger is the story ... only love, love although love tends to be a blind emotion ... in the other tenser it glows as 'allal in Hebrew ... how to Luçe your cognizance! Gabriel calls ...

Ever get that floating feeling? There it goest ...

Hey gang, here's some facts and figures from M&E:

A)Reports indicate that in the last fiscal year, inmates self-identified their religious affiliation as follows:

36% Roman Catholic                       20% Non-Religious                          18% Protestant

7% “Other Religious Group”        6% Unknown                                     5% Muslim

4% Native Spirituality                     2% Buddhist                                       1% Jewish          

1% Sikh

(this was reported in the press -- I do not have the source document.)  So, 46% of the inmate population is not of the Christian faith.

B) Re:  the full-time chaplains -- all but one are of the Christian faith.

C) In the Report on the Enhanced Partnership Model written in 2011, the following statistics were provided: 

There are 120 “institutional” chaplaincies, of which 70 are identified as “full-time” , 34 are identified as “part-time” [these are part-time Christian chaplains], and 16 are identified as “other faiths” [these are all contracts for non-Christian faith chaplains]. 

There are a total of 183 chaplaincy contracts [these would include the contracts for those leading “community chaplaincies”, which are ministries offered to former inmates conducted outside correctional institutions] and 132 faith communities hold these contracts. 

There were 3,048 active “chaplaincy volunteers” as of April of 2011. 

The final report on the Enhanced Partnership Model can be found at:  http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/prgrm/chap/epmrpt-eng.shtml.  Its appendices are helpful in understanding how chaplaincy works in the CSC context.

Seems like part of the right wing plan that will not speak their plan openly...that their bias is looking to disestablish religion bit by bit...beginning with the obvious, and heading for Christians...in the long run.

I agree it is no more than racism, and biased judgement...based in fear, and in the lack of integrity.  What other good is done does not cover this action.

Harper has shown no interest in healing, or reintegrating people lost to their own dignity...most often pulled away from respecting themselves by society's uncaring attitudes that bring people down.  Poverty is one of those indignities, abuse and violence another.

Canada needs to pull together to work for justice for all, not hellish judgement.  Our kindness is eroding with this sort of punitive uncaring.....The Creator God I believe in will be weeping again, for humankind has evicted chances for new life for itself.

I see more coming down the line if he gets away with this.  I sent the Moderator's letter out to many including MP's I know in my area...and churches need to be ready, and those who support those weakened by our pious systems of judement.

Casinos will be bringing more health issues, and prisons own many of these people wounded already.  Mercy comes from the merciful...the God of Jesus is mercy in action. 

Harper also wants prison cells..which are...10' by 10'... to house 2 inmates...with bunk beds.  Another recipe for injustice and bringing to fruition anger and infighting.

The recipe to make more highly dangerous society with hunger, poverty and guns...is to act like we need prisons....WHEN WE CLEARLY ... do not.  Crime, in fact, is going down!

When Jesus says...'take up your bed and walk'.....he meets the person's soul and clears away in those words...all previous feelings of disgust, and guilt in that one's soul...if we hear that message...we all could take up our troubles and walk away from them in the certainty of love's amazing grace.

Why is not the government serving all the people?   We pay their salary, we are supposed to trust them? 

Mercy is grace...freely given.   Yet this will be denied to those who are not Christian?     This is not a Christian act.

Train our Chaplains in every Faith and set the prisoners free...to be heard, to pray in their own way, to connect with their beliefs. That will bring healing.

This is an unholy action against humanity.....The Government contines to judge itself by their own words and actions.

Fear is an unmerciful tyrant....BUT... it also a choice. The use of fear is the abuse of Power.

Martha...thanks for the facts.  

How many will get out and stay out with out their own faith being addressed inside...the system?   

It seems a nudge toward changing prisons toward worsening atmospheres than helpful.  Making dollars off crime means someone wants crime to happen....self-fulfilling prophecies have been around a long time.  It is the mind set and the fact that no one is left out in Christ terms...love does not leave, but it can be denied to others.

Percentages are well and good, but they are not in the realm of God's amazing vision, but humans making reasons for who should have wellness, and who should not.  All are worthy... for God makes no junk!

Everyone is worthy of chances at life..again and again.....we get them.  Maybe we don't recognize the many chances we have had.  Might be a good instudy for our own selves to look back and see those new chances we got?  No one being perfect makes it easier to think.know I could have travelled another route.  We all have had cross roads and choices of which path to take.

Those with positive life-giving chances, or who had the healing of others along the way, can understand it isn't as simple as some would like to think.

Chaplains are a necessary part of healing the soul, which heals the wounds, which heals the mind and body.

I am not sure who you are Martha ....but I hope this action changes into new chances for any and all caught in this wiley trap of imprisonment.  Religions are a path to the same Creating Energy that made...our Reality.

Namaste

If it is truly budget cuts..fear about money....why target religion at all?  Why target the prisoner who needs all the help possible?

There is a slow creeping feeling in using casinos, drinking and smoking...vices we could be healthy without...and which create illness for others..  Whether provincial, or federal, the use of these is an indignity to our health system.  It adds population to the prisons.....which is a goal of this government.  They want provinces to pay for large money-making prisons.

They also want 10 feet by 10 feet cells to house 2 people.  Cutting costs seems to cut human dignity, not a healthy way to achieve anything.  While the top payed people pay less in taxes that those who need their pay checks for their families...be it a one-person family, or many.

The unevenness is now coming into more and more spots that seem almost unnoticed.  The UCC notices this.  hurches of all kinds will reap no benefit a people get stuck by the systems that are allowed to bring unbalanced approaches to reality.

I guess I look ahead to the trend coming falling into line....the march is gathering more steam as little by little it is interrupted...but not for the betterment of all, but for be belittlement of a few which will bring us to that small minded thinking and actions.

I am not into compliance as the One who created me calls me to be alert, awake, and to speak up and loudly against all injustcies...for any excuse, or reason cannot cover the results we will face.  I am to be light, not shadow...this page has much light adding to your own attempt to bring balance.

Harper is tipping the balance to one sided...in this, as other things.  The Pipeline will do its ugly deeds. but will provide work...till we get fed up with being sick of edible oils that do a body harm.  Nature cries with alarm at such thinking...but does not choose our mind set.  We do that.

Money is not edible, soil damaged is not going to produce edible foods.

Actually when Harper came into Government...there was no debt.  Martin had cleaned it up.  The debt is Harper's.  Interest groups are for the people's welfare.  My taxes needs to be for people, not paying for guns and ammunition at the expense of health and good care for children.

I know you are aware of these things.....

I am angry when I think of the mess we are leaving as a legacy to the young children of this day.   Balances have been tossed to the wind...it seems as I watch and listen.   People right into the thick of it all, don't see clearly as ones who live the results, and ones who can be a bit detached to see a broader view.  Of course only the Creator sees the whole view.  But, have we trusted that view, heard it, seen it, lived in it?  Even a bit of it?

Uses of fear tell me we have not trusted God's timing, or ways we have seen in Jesus.

It has been true when it is said the more you see and understand of God, the more pain you have, because there is so much needed in the way of love, respect, and forgiveness....it breaks your heart.   

But, then when you have done lamenting you get busy.  It is a cycle going round and new life enters the circle.....in its forever motion

That is my prayer for all prisoners...to be granted free access to their own faith for their healing process.

It's rather humourous how religions have become a pissing contest. No wonder it is written "Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?"

So is religion of this world?

What would we call it on the outside ... a fringe involvement?

Thus the extermination of the puff oak ... but you can't say that in a real world ...  Reaks of the tree of wisdom and philosophy thereof!

Real people arn't supposed to think are they? So I'm told by theologians ... we are to perform by pure emotion ... which appears blind by my measure ... a meta physical scam? As measured physically by light of observation ... science ... that which religion despises ...

God alm itei are we dissociated or just isolated from intellect? Not a clew they say ..

The broader prison-system changes in Canada, to put them in line with America's prisons, are worth keeping in mind.  Prisons are for-profit entites.  In America, they are wealthy enough to lobby the government into enacting unreasonably harsh prison terms.  This leads to more taxpayer money going to the prisons, who then have more money with which to lobby the government for more prisoners.  Which increases their income.  Hence why about 1% of America's population is in prison.

Canada is set to enjoy the same treatment.

the US is number one at only three things they say... more peope there believe in angels than any other nation, they are the highest at military spending, and there are more prisoners per capita than any other nation in the world.

Hi spirit wind 7,

That is decidedly untrue.

The Federal Liberals had managed to run successive budgetary surpluses.  They had not retired the National debt.

When Prime Minister Harper took office in 2006 the National debt was a little over $500 billion dollars.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/03/21/graphic-50-years-of-canadian-debt/

What is true about the National debt is that Canada had been steadily paying down the debt between 1996 and 2008.  2009 was the first year since 1996 that had not seen a decline in the National Debt and alarmingly in 2010 the Feds increased our National debt to slightly more than it was when they took office.

Canada has never been without a National debt-load since before 1961.

Grace and peace to you.

John