No response from our clergy.

why am I not surprised?

What about the war dead of WW II (my father barely survived).

Question - Was Iraq the first war Canada did not take an active part in when invited by the U.S. or Britain?

\

There you go again, graeme, weilding your big stick.  I expect clergy have the right to decide how they deal with Remembrance Day.  

Our community has a yearly service at the Cenotaph.  Wreaths are placed in honour of those lost in wars and surviving veterans.  This is followed by a service at our small theatre.  Last year all the students from our one high school and one elementary school were escorted to the service at the Cenotaph - about 400 students in all.

The Legion selects a specific church denomination in our community each year and those Legion members able to march, attend a special service.  Some years it is an Ecumenical service.

WE HAVE NOT FORGOTTEN, Nor will we!

As to your other examples of unnecessary wars and deaths....yes, a good discussion might ensue as long as you don't sneer at people's opinions.

Yes, I think that church is an obvious place to discuss matters of morality such as war. As a former member of the CF, I believe that the entire raison d’être of the military needs to be seriously re-examined. Aside from the fact that their policy is becoming more aggressive in our name, this aggression has serious consequences throughout society - so, yes, it's a moral issue.

I'm torn on this issue. The Red Poppy Campaign is difficult for me to support for 3 reasons. The first is that, even though it's meant to be in support of veterans and their families, it comes across as very militaristic. For example, here is an excerpt from their website (emphasis mine):

"the Legion has vowed to ensure that the preservation of the records and memories of our fallen heroes and returning veterans continues in perpetuity."

This is idolatrous language, in my opinion and romanticizes the gruesome and inhumane nature of war, especially given the heavy propagandization of our youth in terms of the cult of the hero. 

The second is the change of direction the campaign seems to have taken. Wasn't the motto once "Never again"? The present one "Lest We Forget" is quite different, isn't it, and is not against war itself, despite what the veterans and their families have gone through.

The third (I'll probably think of others, as well) is the fact that I believe those who have served their/our country (whether or not I agree with the mission or the purpose statement) should be taken care of by our government, in fact, by us. All of us elect the government that has determined the mission (even through non-participation in the voting process) and we have the responsibility to care for them and their families when that's needed. Lose a limb or a life? That's a recipe  for extreme financial hardship for most and it treats the people who believe the ideological mantra that the government chants (via advertisements, public statements, websites, etc) like people who can be thrown away when they are no longer of use. 

Remember Sean Bruyea? He's the guy that the government harassed and betrayed because he was going public about the injustice in the above. He's got a few things to say on his website. 

So, I am willing to honour the sacrifice that people who join the military are offering to all of us but don't want to honour war itself. I do support the efforts of the White Poppy campaign, which has equally historical roots. I plan to wear both this year.

For anyone who has not read it may I suggest The War Prayer by Mark Twain.  It's a very powerful book. 

I don't agree with glorifying, justifying or romanticising war, and that's why I never wore a Red Poppy. I will, however, wear a White Poppy this year, if I can get hold of one.

"Lest we forget?"

What ... we are supposed to reflect on the rationale of war?

I like the response in Hamlet ... "man you think too much" ... then one has to question why creation (God?) gave mankind brae in, like a wee Nich of sense ... so he could shun IT ... put ID to good abuse?

Life is a good dimension for creation to place the stray parts ... sects, cults and all that painful stuff that a nummy could learn from ... thus the Log Oz ... the power of myth?

From Caligula's Dream, NEO Numb'n ESS:

The O Log Oz …

The deeps of God, as Þ^өœm, distant hue Mêrè, beyond mortal?

It is said in Genesis that this is (thy-s’s) where it begins …

Bin nary code, legend in the pool ‘Ve de deuce ſin …

In which legend appears Toby creature much like swine …

Iđ’ll consume everything in a pickle, O’s alts, th other’s ID!

How much depth do yah need for esh (ð) Hark ‘NG; different bite?

Sometimes person requires relief, Toby nibbled upon …

Thus the spectre of sects on a Wahl, definition of blubber ‘n idiom …

To phoqah up that explicit space, IO Nin Greece; O’live Oielle …

That which is beyond you (myth?) of huge Ais …

As unknown dimension, o’ pha Tiye’d issue …

Over the hoeri Zion’s fa Tai space …

Like frosty attitudes of dead people …

Without understanding …

A flash back on I Corinthians 13:12?

Makes d’ Æmons giggle and di Mons shimmer as chimera …

Spectre, something leading man to know not!

Jacks up his brae in, that silly N’ich to another tier …

On the mound, Wii often called pile driven …

By battery of conflicts!

Then one minister at the f(un-real) …

Of an old acqu’aint-ante said:

“There are no conflicts in the biblical record!”

Had heis never heard of Black and Wight …

Conquest of th’ Eword that’s moving ideal-ism?

IT alters with time, space, light and understanding; sous-la …

Or perhaps Sue-eL of Sufi’s egost!

The encompassed like within …

What you know and what you don’t know …

As Shadow of de ‘ob’T …

Warped word?

Earthy authority twists it all out of truth …

For alternate rationale, mortal didn’t wish to know!

What is called sacred alternative (hieros gamos) …

Or alternate; eghost of chance that they can restrict to the mob!

That ba-sic-allah un-educated in the ways of physical Furies …

That are terminal, sort of temporal archetype, to teach numbed spirits …

The dead psyche of La Zoaring sequence, syndrome floating!

Zo Eire in end, exposing of hind …

Begins next peace, silence in the knight …

Gathering of the aughts and tossing “M” into the fires of Gods …

Hoo didn’t wish to know anyhow, anyway, anywhere …

In anylight even the N’ich of Jay Sues …

The biting light of God that many see at the foot of de athe A’B’D (דיבא) …

When the spirit and soul are gathered in point, of bel ET bit?

That’s the prodigal quest Ion!

How did the word get scrooge Din Tue …

Deathly complexity that man avoids …

Shuns like plague Eire isms …

As if nothing is repeated …

As Ξ-ghost, w’olai spirit …

Pulled over the Ais of men …

Cool calming of pas Zions …

The telling of the story of delight, Love for all things, shunned and scroo’din sacred manna, unknowing of mortal shoe nin!

Kurt Vonnegut wrote in Breakfast for Champions....

I will come to a time in my backwards trip when November eleventh, accidentally my birthday, was a sacred day called Armistice Day. When I was a boy, and when Dwayne Hoover was a boy, all the people of all the nations which had fought in the First World War were silent during the eleventh minute of the eleventh hour of Armistice Day, which was the eleventh day of the eleventh month.

It was during that minute in nineteen hundred and eighteen, that millions upon millions of human beings stopped butchering one another. I have talked to old men who were on battlefields during that minute. They have told me in one way or another that the sudden silence was the Voice of God. So we still have among us some men who can remember when God spoke clearly to mankind.

Armistice Day has become Veterans' Day. Armistice Day was sacred. Veterans' Day is not.

So I will throw Veterans' Day over my shoulder. Armistice Day I will keep. I don't want to throw away any sacred things.

What else is sacred? Oh, Romeo and Juliet, for instance.

And all music is.

********

There is a difference between remembering sacrifice and glorifying war and it is a difference that should never be forgotten lest we forget those that have sacrificed so much to preserve what should be sacred to us.

There is, according to Wikipedia, one survivor left in the world that heard the voice of God.  We need to work harder for our and importantly our childrens' opportunity.

I am the first vice-president and poppy chairman of a Legion branch and am currently into my fifth poppy campaign. Nobody in the Legion regards the campaign and cenotaph service as in any way a glorification of war or as promoting the cult of the hero.

Arminius said "I don't agree with glorifying, justifying or romanticising war." I don't either, and one would be hard put to find anyone who did in any Legion branch.

A veteran is anyone who at one point in their life made out a cheque "payable to the people of Canada" for "any amount up to and including my life". We honour those who did so by holding them in our memory and assisting them and their dependents whenever they need help.

Yours in remembrance

Alastair MacDonald

Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet, lest we forget.

Where do they sell white poppies?

I wish it were as simple as that. Many of the veterans of two world wars signed up because they were hungry. There were depressions before both wars. Once war factories opened, the reate of enlistement dopped sharply,

Gecko, I never said clergy had no right to decide how to observe remembrance day. - and I have no idea what you mean by a big stick.

I have noted that our clergy shy away from any discussion of this sort - except to complain that there is such a discussion Nor have they been lacking in sneers.

Ever visited a Canadian military cemetery overseas. Many, perhaps most, of the ages on the stones are twenty and younger. They were largely the hopelessly unemplyed. (The averge education of a Canadian soldier in World War 2 was grade 6).

Do you seriously suggest they made mature decisions based on an analysis of the threat to Canada, and so decided to put their lives at stake?

I visited the grave at Arnhem of one I knew. He left school in grade four, got false papers and enlisted at 16.He did it because it gave him status for the first time in his life, mondy for the first time, and the boots clicked as he walked along the sidewalk.

At seventeen he was dead. I later met a man who was with him.

"We were lyin' in the ditch with a machine cuttin' just over us. I could see Bertie shakin'. He was cryin'. Hell, he was sixteen, and this was his first battle. Then screamed, jumped to his feet, and the machine gun cut him in half."

"Craziest thing is he was screamin' for his mother."

My uncle joined in 1939 as an easy way to abandon his wife and children. He was at Dieppe and D Day, but spent most of his service at dances.

Both of them are no heroes for having devoted their lives to our country.

We now have a fresh set of heroes to remember, the airmen who bombed Libyan civilians, killing thousands to......to.....you know,....

I am sneering, Gecko? You're right. Guess who I'm seering at.

Let's hear it from all you clergy. Keep those posts coming.

The vets belonged to a different world where the fear of losing precious and hard-won democracy was real. They were willing to die to defend that. That's because war wasn't abstract. It was bombs and mortars and incompetent generals. Through their efforts, Hitler was stopped. The map was drawn very differently then.

I doubt we can imagine such a clearly defined enemy or comprehend the horror of war since we live so safely -- largely because of that "stand on guard" attitude.

These days though, the threat of losing that carefully-nurtured democracy is every bit as urgent, but war is more insidious and the Enemy is often ourselves. Boundaries are blurred and war takes place against ideologies more than countries. One missile can do the work of many on the ground personnel. It's more about "shock and awe". We never know where the battle lines are drawn until it's too late. I wish I was optimistic about what we could learn about peacemaking from experience but I"m not.

I have compassion for anyone who has, or has ever been a disposable pawn in war, because honestly believing they were acting honourably in defence of democracy is what's noble. I'm glad many vets are teaching subsequent generations about the importance of peace.

Worth remembering.

Newfoundland Memorial Park, Beaumont Hamel, France
Newfoundland Memorial Park is a site on the Somme battlefield near to Beaumont Hamel. The land was bought by the Canadian government after the First World War. It was named after the Royal Newfoundland Regiment, which had provided one battalion of 800 men to serve with the British and Commonwealth Armies. It's tragic part in the action of 1st July 1916 is remembered through this memorial park. The site is also a memorial to all the Newfoundlanders who fought in the First World War, most particularly those who have no known grave.

The park does, nevertheless, preserve the memory of the men of the many other regiments from the French, British and German Armies who fought and died on this part of the Somme battleground from September 1914 into 1918.

At the entrance to the park there is a bronze cast with the following words inscribed on it:

Tread softly here! Go reverently and slow!
Yea, let your soul go down upon its knees,
And with bowed head and heart abased strive hard
To grasp the future gain in this sore loss!
For not one foot of this dank sod but drank
Its surfeit of the blood of gallant men.
Who, for their faith, their hope,—for Life and Liberty,
Here made the sacrifice,—here gave their lives.
And gave right willingly—for you and me.

From this vast altar—pile the souls of men
Sped up to God in countless multitudes:
On this grim cratered ridge they gave their all.
And, giving, won
The peace of Heaven and Immortality.
Our hearts go out to them in boundless gratitude:
If ours—then God's: for His vast charity
All sees, all knows, all comprehends—save bounds.
He has repaid their sacrifice:—and we—?
God help us if we fail to pay our debt
In fullest full and unstintingly!
John Oxenham (1852-1941)

The Newfoundland Memorial Park was opened on 7th June 1925 by Field Marshal Earl Haig. Newfoundland Park is one of only two Canadian National Historic Sites outside Canada. The other National Historic Site is also in France at Vimy Ridge.

thx gecko

A Dutch survivor of the battle of Groningen wrote this poem. English is obviously a second lanuage for him but he expresses himself eloquently. It tells how he felt about the situation on a very personal level:

The Men of Maple Leaf

Bold they were, the combatants we knew
How deep our sympathy for them grew
South they came and fought their way
Memory engraved is that glorious day
Lives squandered, precious blood shed
Our want for freedom was finally met
There was scarcely time to fraternize
The battle went on, at high a price
In the actions brave ones would fall
Facing their losses the men stood tall
It took three days to clear the town
Dislodging the enemy beyond our bounds

Stricken by panic some fled to the shore
Deserted or were scattered to the four
Many fighting wearied, surrendered fast
Our war torn hometown was freed at last
Smouldering ruins were marking the place
Where battering damaged her ancient face
Peace returned, the yoke of war was gone
Thanks to the Canadians, a tough task done
To commemorate them we dedicate a forest yet
Maple leaves fell for us, lest we forget

J. Piest-Haren.

Here is a bit of the background to this battle:

The liberation of Groningen, Holland

German forces were mainly deployed in the ancient city centre shielded in part by an ancient canal. Some troops were deployed in the southern suburbs. A German pocket in the power station surrendered after the fall of the inner city. The inner city was reached on 14 April. Western approaches to the old town (Oude Stad) were blocked because the bridges over the canal were destroyed. The Herebrug bridge in the south of the old town was not destroyed, but it took a day before the Germans with machine guns were defeated in the buildings north of a circular 'circus' on the north side of the bridge. The Canadians managed to enter the north of the city centre, Nieuwe Stad after two hours of fighting in the Noorderplantsoen park, which was placed where the city walls used to be in the 19th century and before. The fight in the central market square, Grote markt, was the fiercest part of the battle. There were several German machine guns in the buildings north of the square. The buildings had to be destroyed by tanks. The Nieuwe Stad was conquered, but the Canadians couldn't reach the Oude Stad from the north, due to fierce German resistance. The German commander surrendered on 16 April once it was clear further resistance was useless. The Canadians used armour (Fort Garry Horse) effectively in co-operation with their infantry (2^nd Infantry Division). Artillery support was forbidden out of fear of harming the civilian population. The death toll included approximately 300 Germans, 150 Canadians and 100 Dutch civilians. Some 270 buildings were damaged or destroyed in the fighting. Over 5,200 Germans surrendered and the remaining Germans (about 2,000) fled north-east and were again met in battles such as Gruppenbuhren near Delmenhorst.

Hi graeme,

I will wear a poppy.  My family was lucky.  The ones we sent off to war came back.  Changed, but back.  Healthy if not whole.  I'm not old enough to have known them before they left to notice a difference.  As I got older I began to see the scars they carried.  When I got into ministry I began to meet more and more vets, most who followed orders and few who gave any.  I also became aware of the scars they continue to carry.

I have preached many services at the community cenotaph and in our own sanctuary where remembrance day has been remembered.  We've never celebrated it.  I have, in prayer and in sermon thanked those who, out of sense of duty, went when called.  I have lamented what war made of our young.  I have ranted that leadership failed to find  a way to stop or avert war.  I have wept tears for those who would be appeased by nothing not even the blood of their own running red in the streets.

I have, since my ordination, lifted up the notion that war is nothing but humanity's failure to be decent or loving to one another.  I have contrasted the greatest love my faith knows, "That a man would lay down his life for another." with the perversity of war which demands, "That a man take the life of another."

I recall that the act of Remembrance was so that such horror and tragedy would not be repeated and yet we are still lilling one another with regularity and, thanks to technology, from greater ranges.

I have yet to have a vet not thank me for constantly and consistently bringing forward the notion that war is a failure.  That's how self-righteous I get on the subject.

Because "we" are ignorant and "we" gave into the fear reflex of the day.  "We" didn't turn tail and run, we didn't give into the cowardly "flight" response oh no.  "We" gave into the fearful "fight" response and it was easy for us to do so because we know that we have the "right" to defend ourselves.

We didn't run.  We didn't think.  We smelled blood and we wanted more.

Others saw an opportunity to exploit and felt that our military personnel made a great investment to secure that opportunity and if they bled in the process the the value of the investment goes up.

Grace and peace to you.

John

We are in agreement.

At Beaumont Hamel, The men of the Newfoundland regiment came from fishing and lumber villiages all of Newfoundland. In many villages, every man of military age joined.

Beaumont Hamel was their first action. They were ordered to charge across an open field swept with German machine-gun fire. Not one made it to the the German line. It is quite likely that none got close enough to fire a single round.

The charge was scarcely what one thinks of as a charge. Weighted with equipment, they could only walk into a solid wall of fire.

In just minutes, many communities across Newfoundland lost every male between the ages of 18 and 40.

(Ya know, Graeme, you make a whole lot of assumptions about clergy - many of which suggest that we're bloody clueless. Perhaps that's why we don't particularly want to respond to your sallies. I know it's the reason that I don't feel a great need to post. I see that RevJohn posted the next day. Is 24 hours on really such a long time?)

However - 

Many of us have both commemorated the *end* of the Second World War on November 11th and have used that commemoration as a time to challenge ourselves, our congregations and our wider communities about why we go to war, why we're in the wars we're in, and why fear isn't the best motivator when it comes to finding ways of living together on this planet.

Know what? Many of us do that as Legion Chaplains, with Legion members sitting in the pews. In fact, many of the veterans I've had a chance to listen to would agree with your assessment of the whys and wherefors they went to war, and why we continue to participate in war.

November 11th and the worship gatherings that happen around that date are not a celebration of derring-do or patriotic moxie. They are lament. Lament for what happened. Lament that we still can't get it right. Lament because we realize that we might not get it right in the future.

They are also a challenge to work to live change so that our tribal territorialism and our hunger and fear don't get the better of us.

Helping people explore the good news of Jesus of Nazareth - the one who challenged us to, "Love God and love your neighbour as you love yourself," kind of pushes us in that direction.

Christ's peace - Richard

I don't see them as patriotic occasions either.  They are more about sorrow and remembrance.  People are not stupid as Graeme thinks...they know that war is an unpleasant business to say the least.  Not many young men in any Western country are gung-ho for war.

I appreciate everybody who went to war to fight Hitler and liberate the Jews (which should have been done earlier, but that's another story).

My father was sent to "defend (an already lost) "Berlin" - he didn't have to go until the last couple of months, because he was missing the fingers of his left hand from birth, but at the end, even though the war was clearly lost, they sent them all to "fight'. He and his whole group deserted and hid for the last couple of weeks until the war was over.

I am sure there is war actions that are justified and others that are not- and overall it would be better if everything was solved in a peaceful way. War should not be celebrated- but I don't think Canadian do that.

American Presidents like to do that, but not Canadians. I never felt that war was glorified on Rememberance Day. I do feel, that there is an obligation in church services to remember all victims of war on all sides, while a celebration at the Legion is okay to just concentrate on the Canadian victims.

I will not wear a poppy. Growing up in Germany, my generation was made to feel deeply ashamed for the sins of their parents generation and I still get the feeling of "being the enemy on foreign terretory" around Rememberence Day, when Canadian nationalism seems to be so strong.

I do think both happen at Legions although I know that most who do don't do it intentionally.

Then that makes me a veteran and I have attended many Remembrance Day ceremonies - some of them as a member of the honour guard. I, too, have been to the Commonwealth Cemetary in Arnhem, twice, in fact - once as a child and once in my 30s. As a parent by then, it was profound and sad. 

I have no problem with holding those who have been lost to us through death in our memory. We do it in many circumstances.

I do have a problem with Fight with the Canadian Forces and other such propaganda which does romanticize war. This, from the Forces.ca website, "Nothing is more important to the Canadian Forces than its members and their families." is an absolute lie and deceives people considering sign-up. This is a fairy tale from the shadows...

There can be a lot of good offered to the country from our military such as disaster assistance, for example but let's be honest about it, for heaven's sake. Veterans are often not treated well or with respect. People who have offered their lives have been abused after being injured in action and families, too. Why the hell the Poppy Fund has to pay for assistance to veterans is completely beyond me and I can only think that the reason the Legion tolerates it is because there is an underlying approval of the war mission so they don't dare criticize the government.

It is difficult to find them.  There was a proposal by a number of peace groups to sell them along side with the red, however this has been met with resistance from some Legion Branches. 

And this is unfortunate since veterans and peace organizations want the same thing; an end to war.

You may contact Canadian Voice of Women for Peace (VOW) to see if they launched their campaign this year, or on their website are instructions on how to make your own.  If that doesn't work you will have to go to Britain.  The Peace Pledge Union has been distributing white poppies since 1936.

A vet I knew, a woman who had served in WWII, wore a beautiful enamel poppy pin.  It consisted of two poppies,  red and white.  The perfect symbol of past and future, remembrance and peace.  When I asked her about it she said it was a Veteran's pin but I have never seen another one.

LB

---------------------------

I renounce war. I renounce war because of what it does to our own men...I renounce war because of what it compels us to do to our enemies...I renounce war for its consequences, for the lies it lives on and propagates, for the undying hatreds it arouses, for the dictatorships it puts in place of democracy, for the starvation that stalks after it. I renounce war and never again, directly or indirectly, will I sanction or support another.

     Harry E. Fosdick, Armistice Sunday Riverside Church, NY, 1933

revbott, my evaluation of clergy comes from years of sitting in pews.

I have known many a regimental chaplain. Most share fully in regimental social affairs -like dinners with rituals deliberately intended to romanticize war. (Ever attended a dragoons mess dinner?)

The notion that young people joined the forces to risk their lives is pure nonsense. The average Canadian enlisted man had an education of grade six in WW2, rather less in WW1. They had no idea what war in general was about, and less about the one they were enlisting for..

If you take a look at enlistment figures in both of those wars, you will see that enlistements were high early in the war. These were the unemployed. As soon as war factories opened, enlistment plummetted.

My father enlisted in the navy in 1943. He didn't have to. He was married, overage for the draught, a father, and he had a job. And I know that defending Canada had nothing to do with it. He wanted this last chance at adventure.

All the talk on Nov 11 about how they laid down their lives to save us is largely bullshit.

Nov. 11 does glamourize war by romanticizing those who died (on our side) as doing it just for us.

Few had any idea what they were fighting for - except in the usual propaganda terms of the day.

And whether you label NOV. 11 as a celebration is irrelevant. It is not  siimply a rememberance of those lost. It is a celebration of them as role models.

We were manipulated by big business into fightiing at least two wars - The Boer War and Afghanistan. Do we romanticize those two wars into something they were not? Of course we do.

The US set up the provocations for going to war in 1917 and 1941. Again, the reasons were purely commercial. (I could say the same for the War of 1812, the Mexican war, the Spanish American war, the many invasions of Latin American countries, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, Pakestan, Yemen....

Were all those American heroes defending their country? Ever heard of an american clergyman to say otherwise?

Note the use of the word heroes. It came into general use during the Koreean war for all our new media. "Korean War Hero gets ticket for speediing." We have the highway of heroes in Ontario.

I have known a great many of those heroes. Most were poor, had substandard educations, and very little sense of what the war was about. Perhaps that's material for a sermon on what cowards rich and educated people are.

Ever thought of a service to remember all those who died serving their countries  on the other side?

Or are the heroes of God only on our side?

revbott, my evaluation of clergy comes from years of sitting in pews.

I have known many a regimental chaplain. Most share fully in regimental social affairs -like dinners with rituals deliberately intended to romanticize war. (Ever attended a dragoons mess dinner?)

The notion that young people joined the forces to risk their lives is pure nonsense. The average Canadian enlisted man had an education of grade six in WW2, rather less in WW1. They had no idea what war in general was about, and less about the one they were enlisting for..

If you take a look at enlistment figures in both of those wars, you will see that enlistements were high early in the war. These were the unemployed. As soon as war factories opened, enlistment plummetted.

My father enlisted in the navy in 1943. He didn't have to. He was married, overage for the draught, a father, and he had a job. And I know that defending Canada had nothing to do with it. He wanted this last chance at adventure.

All the talk on Nov 11 about how they laid down their lives to save us is largely bullshit.

Nov. 11 does glamourize war by romanticizing those who died (on our side) as doing it just for us.

Few had any idea what they were fighting for - except in the usual propaganda terms of the day.

And whether you label NOV. 11 as a celebration is irrelevant. It is not  siimply a rememberance of those lost. It is a celebration of them as role models.

We were manipulated by big business into fightiing at least two wars - The Boer War and Afghanistan. Do we romanticize those two wars into something they were not? Of course we do.

The US set up the provocations for going to war in 1917 and 1941. Again, the reasons were purely commercial. (I could say the same for the War of 1812, the Mexican war, the Spanish American war, the many invasions of Latin American countries, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, Pakestan, Yemen....

Were all those American heroes defending their country? Ever heard of an american clergyman to say otherwise?

Note the use of the word heroes. It came into general use during the Koreean war for all our new media. "Korean War Hero gets ticket for speediing." We have the highway of heroes in Ontario.

I have known a great many of those heroes. Most were poor, had substandard educations, and very little sense of what the war was about. Perhaps that's material for a sermon on what cowards rich and educated people are.

Ever thought of a service to remember all those who died serving their countries  on the other side?

Or are the heroes of God only on our side?

Graeme, do you think there is ever an acceptable reason for war?

I have to give Graeme one point.  My father spent 5 years overseas.  But I think he did see it as adventure.  He was not about to join the army, he wanted to be a pilot in the air force (and succeeded at that).  

Nor was he much for Nov 11 celebrations (he would say things like, where is that poppy from last year...I know it is here somewhere...don't want to pay for a new one).

I think war is always like that.  But do you really think we should not have fought Hitler?  The problem is that there were young men up for adventure there too (or at least not willing to risk an en masse revolt in 1939.  If they had had crystal balls, they might have revolted.  But none of us have crystal balls).

Korea is another example.  If the Korean war had not been fought, all of Korea--not just the north-- would be enjoying starving in Kim Jong Il's communist paradise.   Yet that too is hindsight.

Well, graeme, whether you like it or not, there are many clergy who have no qualms about both commemorating the deaths - on all sides, both civilian and military - as well as challenging the reasons we went to war and go to war. And we do it from the "pulpit" as well as in study groups and arguing with our members of Parliament. On Remembrance Sunday. On Peace Sunday. On Sundays that don't have anything to do with anything except for the fact that we've gathered together to worship God. Some clergy have joined the protests against war and joined the work that is done to build justice and peace in this world.

The reasons you posit for people enlisting during the second World War are similar to one's I've heard some veterans of that war express. Veterans of our other peacetime and wartime eras have talked about other reasons they decided to "join up".

I've not attended a mess dinner. As a civilian, my work with the Canadian Forces has been tengential - pastorally supporting individuals and families in my congregations who are serving in the reserve or regular forces. As a Legion chaplain for the last 18 years, I've been to their dinners. While some of them have had those "romantic moments", what I've constantly and consitantly heard is a group of people who want to support one another and who never want their children or grandchildren (or for that matter, anyone's child or grandchild) to have to be on a battlefield.

The prayers I've shared, standing at the cenotaph, have been for all of the casualties of war. There have been times that the community has been concerned - but the Legion has always supported those words, and asked me to continue being their pastoral presence.

By the way - I tend to go by Richard, except in formal situations.

Christ's peace - r

Okay, Richard. During the second world war, every united church I saw had a union jack at the pulpit. that practice lasted until well after the war.

As for the reasons for people joining up, I don't need to guess. I've gone through the statistics of rates of enrolment. in every country, it became more difficult to recruit as as unemployment dropped. In every country, wars are generally fought by the poorest and least educated part of the population.

Miltary brass, in general, do not join up  to fight for their country. They like wars because wars mean promotion. They also are good for the "defense" industry - which frequently appoints retired brass to senior positions. The Canadian brass, with few exceptions, have loathed peacekeeping. (so did the defense industry  - because peacekeeping didn't spend enough.)

EO  Are any wars justifiable? Certainly. I think Vietnamese were quite justified in fighting against American aggression ( though I've never heard that as a church sermon.) AFghanis are quite justified in defending their homeland. And quite courageous in taking on such a large and wealthy country to do it. Iraqis were justified.

Canadians were justified in the War of 1812. They were not justified in the Boer War.

Nuremberg and early rulings of the UN lay down the conditions in which war is justified. The other country has to be openly and militarily attacking you. None of our recent wars meets those criteria. All of our wars since at least 1960 violated interntional law and treaties. All would have earned the death penalty at Nurrmberg.

The two World Wars are trickier because we obviously had a very evil person - at least in the second.

Our role as a colony did not require us to fight in the First World war. Under the Empire, we were reaquired to fight only if Canada was attacked - as in the War of 1812.  Obviously, the US did not consider 1914 grounds for war. And when it did go to war, its reasons had nothing to do with helping Britain.

In World War Two, the US did NOT declare war on Hitler, not even after Pearl Harbour. It was the other way around.

Should Canada have fought in World War One? Probably not. (though popular opinion and big business would never have allowed it to stay our.)

Should Canada have fought World War Two? There was never a serious threat to Canadian soil or to Canadian freedom. Some people will say Japan could have invaded. Some people need to learn at lot about what it possible militarily. By 1939, as an independent nation, Canada had no need to go to war for Britain.

And world war two, for Canada, does not meet the definitions laid down by Nuremberg or the UN.

I still think we were right to go to war in 1939. We had nothing to lose - but we could not allow a Hitler to run loose.

The US, again, saw no need to go to war in 1939. When It did go to war against Japan, the reason had nothing to do with Pearl Harbour. It had to do with stopping the Japanese from getting the Empire the US wanted to get in Asia.

War is sometimes justified - but not often.

We are about to celebrate the war of 1812. I suspect our politicians will dance away from saying which side was justified. I think it was us. And I know enough of the reasons why to look forward to an argument within anyone who thinks differently.

Re: Iraq.  Not all fought against the US.  The Kurds joined them and fought with them. 

Even though I read a whole book on the Boer War I still could not quite figure out why the British were fighting it.

Interesting viewpoint, not to be dismissed out of hand.  If Great Britain had not joined, the Germans under Kaiser Wilhelm would probably have won.  The Kaiser was no democrat, but he was nothing like Hitler either.  If they had not lost WW I, there would have been no Hitler.... makes you think.

I have read this viewpoint before.  One quibble: armament manufacturers like war, but other businesses do not necessarily benefit.  A Jewish friend of the Kaiser who owned the Hamburg-Amerika Line advised against war, saying Germany would dominate economically if things kept going as they were at the time.  He was right of course (he died in strange cirucmstances that may have been suicide after WW I--his business was ruined by the war).

Also, the London financiers were totally against GB going to war in 1914.  They had to close the London Stock Exchange.

Are physic-allah oriented individuals more disposed to make struggles of aggression than making love? It is part of the spirit of competition something that is considered in  odern day ... the part or sects of the norm ... meme?

Consider me out of here  ... a little alien to present thought?

That's Lost Horizon .. a bit below the normal vision of conflict  ... just stop and think about it. But then calmness and thinking are considered evil and outside the box ... cuÞið-like if you can read the alien sigh ing ...

The Kurds had good reason to hate Saddam. (Of course, they also had reason to hate the British who had used Kurd villages for an early experiment in terror-bombing in the 1920s) They also had reason to hate the Americans because they had supplied Saddam with weapons to attack the Kurds. (There really aren't many friends out there.)

The Boer War was for control of gold and diamonds. Africans were kept poor, uneducated, and cheap as a source of cheap labour. The same was true of Rhodesia.

Big business in Canada insisted on entry into World War I because Britain was their major source of capital. The newspapers also beat the drum for war -  notably the Montreal Star. As well, Canada still had a very high proportion of British born, especially ini Ontario and the West. If you check elistment figures, you find they were generally lower in the Maritimes. That's because immigration to the martimes (and most of Quebec) had occured earlier. There were relatively few born in Britain by 1914.

Many businesses, indeed, were hurt by World War I as warring countries got mired in inflation, shortages, skyrocketing debt....  That's why economic controls were introduced by governments in World War II. The US, though certainly in a war situation, has not introduced controls because the biggies don't want them. That's part of the reason for its economic decline. It will get much worse when the inflation part hits.

I was talking more about why Great Britain itself got involved in WW I.   It was not an automatic decision.   I confess to knowing little about the Canadian politics of the time.  

re: Kurds.  A friendless people, dislike by Arabs, speaking a language related to Farsi, yet mostly Sunni.  Bad relations with Turkey.   The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Britain began preparing for World War I in the 1870s, as soon as it was obvious Bismark had created a Germany that would be the dominant power in Europe - and a threat to Britain and its empire.

As that sank in, the British realized they had no ally - and could not hope to beat the military of a united Germany. That's when the British began courting colonies like Canada to adopt a united foreign policy  (much in the way the US is using NATO to share its wars.)

That's why the British wanted Canada in the Boer War. This was supposed to be a small, quick and easy war. Britain had no idea it would need colonial help. But it wanted the whole Empire to go to war, united behind Britain, as a warning to Germany.

(Before this time, all colonies were technically at war when Britisn was. But they could not be required to take part in the war. Britain wanted a precedent to change that. They got it when Canada, Australia, New Zealand all sent troops.)

Later, they also signed an alliance with France. Neither Britain nor France could afford the emergence of Germany as a world power.

Now, through NATO, we fight American wars as we used to fight British ones.

In Oz we chiefly remember our war dead on ANZAC day.

 The ANZAC battle occurred in WW1. Australian and New Zealand soldiers travelled far across the seas to a country -  Turkey - to fight for England, the "mother country".

We had no legitimate reason to be there, and we lost both many lives and indeed the battle itself........

My father was a young schoolteacher when he enlisted in WW2. At that time there was a real concern that Japan would invade Australia - Darwin was bombed and midget submarines had entered Sydney harbour causing loss of life.

He went to New Guinea with a young man's sense of adventure and no experience of either killing or warfare.

He returned to our shores a shattered man. He saw, and I suspect took part in, barbaric behaviour.

It affected not only his life, but ours, his family.

I recall him saying once, in yet another guilt-ridden alcoholic ramble, "You won't get me marching on Anzac Day. There's nothing in war to make me proud of being an Aussie. Sure, I saw many examples of Jap brutality - but our blokes were just as bad. I'll never forget coming across this Jap camp when they were retreating -they left their sick and wounded on stretches. The poor bastards had dysentry and were lying in their own shit. And what did our brave Aussie soldiers do? Bayonetted the lot of them, that's what."..............

But, he did march in the last few years of his life. A good mate from those terrible years got in touch and their friendship was rekindled.

Perhaps it was having another who shared his shame and pain played it's part in at least partially healing his spirit?

In the last year of his life the subject of regrets came up a lot in our conversations. He told me he'd decided they were a waste of time - as you couldn't undo the harm you'd caused.......

Although I understood what he meant, I'm not sure I agree with him. It was the closest he came to apologising for much of the insecurity of our childhood - although, in one sense, it wasn't necessary, I had already forgiven him.

War doesn't just destroy lives, it can destroy your soul.

The last Anzac March I attended was when Dad marched when he was eighty - two months before he died.

Inner conflicts - my life has so many.........

I am a pacifist.

Yet, as  I watched those old misguided men march in step, their shoulders pulled back in military fashion, I did feel a sense of pride........

Go figure?

And when my Dad's unit passed this woman in her then fifties yelled out "Dad, Dad, I'm over here."

About six years ago a veteran asked me to march with him in the Veterans Day Parade at opening of the Canadian National Exhibition in Toronto. My own unit (Royal Regina Rifles) was not represented so I marched with the Queens Own Rifles. At one point we passed by a large group of civilians carrying Dutch flags and plackards saying "Thank you Liberators". I was moved and then I looked around at the WWII combat veterans. The tears were streaming down their cheeks. The Dutch remember --- we should too.

I recommend reading It’s Finally Over — and It Was Wrong

by Jim Wallis

While it pertains to the US involvement in the Iraq war, the observations are applicable to all wars particularly this commentary...

No matter what our view of the war, it is our collective responsibility to be healers for those who are coming home – and for those left behind in post-war Iraq.

We must learn from this horrible and costly mistake.

We must conclude unequivocally that terrorism is not defeated by wars of mass occupation.

And we must strive to re-establish the fundamental principle that truth matters.

"The Dutch remember and we should, too."

This feels like a lecture and, having spent about 80% of my life connected to the military, it's not necessary. I believe that a lot could have been done well in advance of the events leading to Hitler's election that may very well have avoided the entire situation. I'm not talking about Chamberlain, etc...way before that...

I believe strongly in humanity and know that we have the capacity, the creativity and the ability to solve problems appropriately, with respect for each other and our world. We let those whose interests were in making money take control of our societies and countries, manipulating us and others for their benefit, not ours. American factories manufactured weapons and ammunition for Germany in WW2 because business carries on, regardless of any moral imperative.

In other words, somehow we let their interests supersede our own. In my opinion, this is always the case when we engage in war or other violent conflict. 

Motheroffive ...

But how many know or would like to know about the war industry in the west profoting from sales to Hitler? Delusion prevails as a condition of fear and anger ... over wealth!

Could a treasure of mind ... psyche emerge from such painful past? Probably not in an emotional quadrant of the whole sector!

Alas, the memories of the Dutch, and Canadians as well, are rather selective.

Two years after the Dutch had been liberated from German opression, they sent their armies to the Dutch East Indies (Indonesia) to re-conquer their former colonies which had been liberated from Dutch rule by the Japanese. The Dutch war of the re-conquest of Indonesia lasted for approximately two years, from 1947 to 49, and achieved nothing except death and hardship for uncounted Indonesians, who still suffered the after effects of WWII and lived precariously from one rice harvest to the next.

Likewise, the French sent their armies to Indochina (Laos, Vietnam, and Cambodia) to re-conquer their former colonies, which had also been liberated by Japan. The French war for the re-conquest of Indochina lasted until 1954 and was even bloodier than the Dutch attempt to re-conquer Indonesia.

These wars of re-conquest met little opposition from the Western Allies. But the part of Poland that hade been re-conquered by Germany in 1939 had, until 1918, been part of the German and Austrian Empire. Germany/Austria had as much, or as little, right to reconquer its former colonies as Holland and France had to re-conquer theirs, yet Germany's violation of the sovereignity Poland had been Britain's and Canada's reason for declaring war against Germany. Incredulously, Soviet Russia, who re-conquered that part of Poland that had formerly been theirs, and had violated Poland's sovereignity as much as Germany, became an ally of the Western Allies, which led to much of Europe being plunged into a greater tyrrany than it had been under Hitler.

So much for WWII as the great "battle for freedom." Whose freedom, exactly? Canada's freedom was not threatened. The freedom of Indonesia and Indochina was disregarded. The fact that the alliance between the Western Allies and Soviet Russia plunged much of the world into unfreedom is conveniently overlooked.

The only "good" reason for WWII might be the Holocaust, but it was not yet underway when Britain and Canada declared war on Germany. It became a justification in retrospect.

Hitler had to be stopped, and I am not trying to find excuses for Germany's involvement in WWII. The cause for WWI, which was the ultimate cause of WWII, was little more than the European superpowers duking it out over the control of Europe, with Canada going to war to come to the aid of Britain.

I was part of the German post-war generation growing up in Germany after WWII. We not only were victimised by the war, and had to pay for the mistakes of our parent generation, we had to suffer the collective shame and guilt over the Nazi misdeeds. Part of this was generated by Germans in Germany, the rest was piled on Germans by the victors, in self-righteous judgement. This, to some extent, is still going on, particularly on Rembrance Day. I'm sick of it!

Reading around (as I like to do) I have only recently become aware of the huge suffering of  Germans toward the end of the war.  Mass expulsions, rapes, murder....for civilians, mostly in eastern Germany as the Red Army arrived.   The Soviet Union refused to give up its half of Poland (when Hitler & USSR invaded in 1939), and so the border was pushed west to compensate, pushing Germans out of places they had lived for centuries (as Arminius notes).

I am not trying to excuse the Holocaust at all, but this does bear mentioning.

Hitler never did get a majority vote (50% or more).  He got a plurality and was appointed by Hindenburg.  Tragic day for all of Europe.

ps to Arminus: although my father was overseas for 5 years, he did not seem to particularly hate Germans.  (see above where Graeme and I discuss the "adventure factor" motivating our fathers).  As a child in BC, I played happily with the children of a German family (whose father had been a POW of the allies) and nobody in either family seemed to care in the slightest. 

The Dutch do remember. I learned that when I taught there at university of Groningen.

I also learned they happily joined in the imprisoning of Jews at a camp near where I lived, The  Dutch had a large number fighting as an SS army for Hitler; (they replaced the Germans at Arnhem after the battle of "A Bridge too far"). When  surviving Jews returned to The Netherlands, they received tax and rate bills as a welcome.

Thanks, EO.

I haven't experienced much hatred against Germans, either, it's just the blaming and shaming that I object to. WWII wasn't all black or white, all participants came in various shades of grey, but the victors seemed to have sucked the white out of the German grey, painted themselves all white and left the hapless Germans all black.

My ancestors migrated in the 1760ies from the German Rhineland to southern Poland (then part of Austria) following a call by the Austrian Empress Maria Theresa to cultivate the swampy lowlands at the confluence of the rivers Visla and Visloka. Those lands were in need of drainage, and she called specifically for farmers knowledgable in drainage. My ancestors had practiced drainage in the valley plain of the Rhine since Roman times, so they packed their drainage tools and followed the call. They were given 50 acres of swampland each, drained and cultivated it and became Austrian citizens, but, because they were Lutheran, they did not mix with the indigenous Polish Catholic population but retained their Lutheran religion and German language and culture.

When the Republic of Poland was founded after the First World War, they became Polish citizens. After the German re-conquest of 1939 they were classified as ethnic Germans by the German occupiers and enjoyed special status. All this changed when the Red Army advanced in 1944 with their boundless hatred of anything German and their cry: "Germanski out!"

My mother fled with three children. To add insult to injury, we were shot at and bombed by the Western Allies in Germany. We ended up in Bavaria, Germany, where our father, with the help of the Red Cross, found and re-joined us after the war. My mother's father had stayed behind on his farm and was never heard from again.

So, when Remembrance Day comes around and I hear Germans being blackballed as the evildoers of WWII, I get a bit upset. But I calm down again after Remembrance Day.

I am sorry to hear about your grandfather, Arminius.  It does not surprise me, judging from what I have read.

Moreover, as Graeme mentions, the Germans found willing collaborators everywhere they went--finding people to help round up Jews was never a problem.  

And of course I do not need to tell you that Germany has made an amazing comeback.  They are the largest economy in the Euro Zone, currently suffering from a desperate crisis partly due to Greek debt load (the worst problem at the moment).  A few loud-mouthed Greeks are playing the WW II card.  If you are not following the Euro Zone crisis, skip it, you will sleep better.

EO

Ah. Sweet arrogance. And an invitation to dance. Sorry. I have a Remembrance Day service to plan.

Just another foolish pastor.

Quite so. They're a common breed. One chaplain, serving with the German army in WW2, used to help out with the artillery when it was shelling.

Arm ...

I like your reference to selective memory!

Is this like the unconscous mind ... by choice ... or just delusionary tactical action by the imagination to avoid the pain of knowing? 

Of course then, there are those that believe the imagination just myth. Did any great observers draw anything from "imagination"? In is a neat word to research ... then researching old understanding of word ... would be like reaching into the dark. Is that Divine Comedy or what ... perhaps just weird---Willian Shatner!

How many believe there is no mind, soul, psyche ... the eye of the sole entity ... a fractal image all broke to Elle ... like white light passing through a pyramidus ... old word for pri-ism. Then what's an "-ism" ... odd node in space? Mire point like mankind ... something for the wee bits to learn from ... sticking issue?

Then some don't wish to and will-not to learn anything that could advance the whole issue ... eM the paradigm of creation ... what ... US? It appears to be a psychological and emotional issue of di-separation ... intelligent conjugation of f(axioms)! An action of words in theis Torah of imagination ...

ID has to be fathomed out ... like Tøom in aboriginal Hebrew word ... much different than the code devised some thousand years ago (sic) ... once called the fullness of time as Romantic issues couldn't get beyond ...eM ... esh Aime in other tongues ... such limitation of des ole thing ... vaster than we can picture!

Yet there are those emotional sorts that can't project ... get out there ... stuck in a point? Then here I am a fringe person ... looking in from a lost horizon ... like old seaman that know space is warped ... regardless of the Flat Earth Mission of the tongue in cheek group that knows some chi-phesh groups will believe anything passed to eM without question or investigation of the weird sight or sound of such incidents in Eire! Then one has to understand the basis of Eire ... mist Erin ... foggy belief system ... somewhat frocked in wraiths ... wrath extracted from pain instead of learning adequate lessons.

We are no a cultivating race as you might have noiced from the below average perspective ... as in-depth-thinker ... a real stinker to the emotional fisherman!

Sorry for the convoluted tale required to avoid the truth ... man can't stand it ... thus the knocking of the laid-X ... chi's a neat symbol to research!

Arminius,

My first Remembrance Day service I stood in the gray, where no black and no white exists.

I come from a Jewish background and grew up hearing stories about Armistice Day and "never again" from a WWI veteran, veterans of WWII, civilians who endured bombing, and with a PTSD suffering Vietnam veteran step-dad turned Vietnam protestor.

In the congregation I was asked to speak to was one man (recently deceased) who stormed the beaches, along with former Mennonites who were pacifists, a few couples with children in Afghanistan, and several former German nationals- including one woman who's late husband was a German POW.

I also stood there aware that for all the "liberation" talk, the world over was anti-Semitic and I was aware of the conference at Evian and the fate of the St Louis.... also aware that people convicted of homosexuality under Paragraph 175 were not freed by the Allies, they were to serve their full sentences.

God lives in between the black and the white.

This time -for me- is for remembering that all war costs lives and limbs and hearts and souls... It is for remembering that we are human with human frailty and that we are all human. That who is friend and who is foe turns on a dime and at human whim. It is for remembering that God's will was harmony for all humankind, swords beaten into plowshares, and that Jesus was the Prince of Peace.

 It is a time for God's love not shame and guilt or sabre rattling.

agreed. and well put.

It is always that time.