George, I've had it with conspiracy theorists. The worst part is, they are demonstrable liars, and sometimes it feels like I'm the only person here who cares about lies. Does anyone else fact check anything around here? Seems like it's mostly me. Take the bible the wrong way, or in a way that can be disputed, and you've got an argument on your hands. Lie about the words of dead people, and no one else says a thing. No one else seems to care.

So, sometimes this stuff gets the better of me. But yes, conspiracy theorists, of the sort that Blackbelt listens to, are idiots, because they will believe anything. They excist to distort, manipulate, and enrage. Often over nothing at all.

The great news is, they have a ready audience among some Christians, who are conditioned to believe without evidence.

What would be nice, is if others actually cared about the truth, and I'm not talking about whether God is true or not, but just if people are being accurately quoted, or articles accurately summarized, and other similar facts checked. Especially when they are very probable lies most of us can see a mile away.

Thank you GeoFee

I see. that you see aswell 

Chansen, I am not sure if you are the only one who cares or the only one who fact checks.

I tend to stay clear of certain threads as cannot be bothered. You wade in.  

I am happy to walk past the fool on the corner, whereas you seem to wish to engage them.

Yeah, I know. It's a character flaw.

lol, No, it is about where you are drawn.

I understand where Geo is coming from.  It is easy to dismiss, harder to find the time.

There is a place for respectful conversation even with the fool on the corner, for, sometimes, the fool will actually speak the truth.

In addition, if two people are yelling, they both tend to look like fools

Perhaps it does not matter what they look like to others.  Perhaps they are enjoying themselves and for them, that is more important than other considerations.   

Does there exist a  chance of another mental state beyond what we're presently in?

There has to be so the mediums, that see this fallacy collapsing, have a place to go.

It is best if the extremists don't believe in this third pole (neural/neutral mental state/ mind/psyche/etc) as autonomous straight lining ... so the extremes of emotion and psychopathic types won't go there ... and thus the medium escapes ... and no one knows where ... Moses. Elijah or Noah vanished to ... thin Eire ... thus winds toute'n in de veil? And you thought it wasjust an old phi yard ... that measure beyond us yet as Spar Taxis ...

One needs myths to illustrate the abstract side ... a dark formless void ...

The wind is getting ready to gybe ... be prepared ... I believe it'll be a hhot of a ride ... for those ready to leave the state of mind called presence of emote 'n ...

Some bote'n (worminess) may be required ... floating off with LOGOS? Just float Sam to some people that have no use for anything Black and Shadow-like ... satyrs? Is that all-inclusive ... emotions that excise intellectual efforts?

It is enough to crank the Celesial Connectivity fa-route stuff ...

I don't think there is a conspiracy by either a force of evil or a force of good to win over the hearts of people.

However, there are conspiracies of the likeminded. Those who are in favour of making money with money, and making ever more money with ever more money, act in concert to further the goals of monetarism, materialism, capitalism and consumerism, often with the justification of upholding "The Economy," sometimes without social or environmental considerations.

Then there are the more or less unspoken conspiracies of socialists, humanists, and environmentalist. They pursue their agendas, and consciously or subconsciously conspire with each other to further those ideals.

And there are the religious believers and other ideologists. They conspire, overtly and covertly, intentionally or unintentionally, to further their ideals.

And there are wholistic mystics like me, who perceive the universe as a divine and unified whole, and think and act on behalf of the divine whole. We, of course, conspire directly with God.

Hi chansen...

I have no quarrel with remedially engaging persons who fall short of truth's high standards. I am unable to rest quiet with your persistence in denigrating such persons. What provokes you to belittle and besmirch the character of persons coming by for conversation? How does this serve the interest of overcoming what is false by pressing for what is true?

We will be inviting persons to join us, without any standard of inclusion other than respect for difference. How can our hopes of growing a community of dialogue be furthered by the voice of derision? Would we not obtain better outcomes if we patiently engaged the difference of others, and worked with them for the realization of what is true and the turning aside from what is false.

It is one thing to notice and bring forward an error in reason. Quite another to call a person demeaning names under the pretext of defending what is true.

George
 

GeoFee

At one point does the person playing the fool, or being the fool, no longer be worthy of the time it takes to engage with them?

Do you always error on the side of the good, even when they appear to be yanking one's chain (being generous) or truly thicker than a brick (being less generous).

When do you say "enough" , "you have played that card one too many times".

Falls short of truth's high standards? Blackbelt burns the truth alive then places its body in a plastic bag and buries it in the desert.

There is a great deal of respect here for what is "true for me", and previous little for what is actually, verifiably true by the evidence. Especially when lies are being repeated about the dead, that bothers me, and I think you're a genuinely awful jackass of an individual if you go around lying about dead people in an attempt to make your points. I think that's a far worse thing than the crime of calling somebody an "idiot".

Blackbelt will not come to any realization of what is true. He thinks that anything I post is simply anti-Christian and therefore false. Neo and Alex have actually stood up and acknowledged the truth in that thread, but the fundies will dismiss them as insuffucuently Christian as well. Had I come forward and professed that "Jesus is truth", I'd have plenty of defenders. When I post actual truths....crickets.

That's what's so amazing to me and what raises my ire. Pinga makes a valid point that I should just "walk by the idiots on the corner." I'm not good at that. I care too much about stupid little things like lies, trickery, and deception, even by people who are as transparent as glass. It is, in a way, a character flaw. I shouldn't care about that stuff, but I do. But I don't consider it an immoral position or action at all.

Personally,i have found that I give folks in my workplace and life a very long rope.....everyone can have a bad day, a bad week, a bad month or even a bad year.

People can also be less than the sharpest knife in the drawer.  Normally, we wish to include.

We take those situations into account.

Yet, there are also those whose sole purpose appears to be shit disturbers, or are totally unaware of how much of a shit disturber they are.

In those circumstances, and espeically when they are blocking moving forward, then, they are called on their behaviour....or just stepped over.   

The needs of the community in some cases override the needs of the individual.

HI chansen...

I have no argument with your press for truthfulness. I am trying to get you to admit that name calling does not serve our hopes well. There is world of difference between pointing out error and calling people names.

George

I actually also pointed out that the words attributed to JFK are not actually in the recorded clip BB posted. There are better ways to point it out than to call people idiots. That just puts people on the defensive, and I agree with George, won't help matters. Whereas, if you point out the facts vs. the lies more respectfully then maybe they'd be open to listening. Maybe BB isn't lying, maybe he believes these sites and has grown used to trusting whatever they tell him and when he reads the quote beside the photo, that's exactly the meaning he gets from what was said on the tape- because the stuff he reads pushes those conspiracies so aggressively, and the lies- even though it wasn't said at all. If someone's been groomed to believe lies, do they need help or ridicule?

There is no simple response, Kimmio.  It depends on their actions around listening, the amount of time spent already showing the alternatives.

There are times when ridicule is a reasonable response.  

Most times, it is not.  Most times, you invest time in the individual, in listening to them, in engaging them.

I think BB's a nice guy. I don't like some of the stuff he reads and accepts as truth. I don't think ridicule is a solution. If he invented the conspiracy theory himself to get attention and a cult following- like Glenn Beck- that's a different situation. But Blackbelt isn't Glenn Beck, he's just fallen for some of the same types of ideas presented by people like that. Those people use their celebrity to take advantage of others.

Kimmio, my mistake. You also pointed out the truth.

How are we served by lies? Where is Blackbelt's thread? This is what I feel is completely inappropriate with this thread - I'm being singled out for aggressively pushing what is verifiably true. The guy lying about things gets a pass. I don't get that mentality.

Hi Pinga...

The question for me is not so much at what point some one is no longer worthy of time taken for engagement.  I am asking about what transpires when that point is reached.

I walk away and open a space, leaving any fool met to the consequences of the foolishness.  

I do not turn to abusive scripts. Nor will I be easily convinced that such abusive scripts are less problematic than the interests and inclinations of any playing the fool.

We are working to host a community for dialogue. Are we going to say that name calling is permitted? Better to decide this early than late.

George

Are we going to say that blatant lies get a pass?

Hi chansen...

I not singling you out for aggressively pushing what is verifiably true.

I am saying simply that name calling indicates a  problem by which our hope in this place is compromised.

George

Hi chansen...

I am not going to say that and I am not advocating that any say that. I am saying that name calling adds nothing and takes away much.

George

this is a great thread, in that the code of conduct is likely coming up next...(trying to remember the order).

As in anything, there are times when things are appropriate and when they are not.

What might be said to  a friend, or a person you argue with regularly may not be appropriate for someone new.

We all , as Chansen has indicated, have a responsibility ina  communication.  

Though BB / Chansen's dialogue is somehow being referenced here, I can think of many more, where folks say "enough".  Sometimes they say it too soon, or at inopportune times....but...saying it is a resonable thing to say

GeoFee, I do not feel that walking away is appropriate.  We have discussed that in previous threads.  If we leave threads to the bully, racist or homophobic person as seeming respected opinions, then we walk away from our responsibility as community members.

I wonder how many people walked away from the Clippers owner...allowing him to live his life of racist pig because he had funds/

Understood, geo, so namecalling is the challenge? ie, the language we use to describe someone?

I do, but what interests me are more of the health & aging topics and it's not as busy, and I think the overall ratio of inaccurate comments isn't as high.

I've always said that mockery of religion is an important service. Mockery of conspiracy quacks who use religion, doubly so.

Look, I can try to tone it down, but the entire community, and Christianity in general, can do a better job of debunking these quacks. John did an expert job with deconstructing Blackbelt's conspiracy argument connections from a biblical perspective, but left the actual lies to me.

And it's one thing to be wrong. It's something entirely different to be proven liar and not care. I used the word "idiot". I called myself an "idiot" today when I locked myself out of the forum of the new site. That is me being reserved in the face of extreme ignorance tinged with arrogance.

Generally, I prefer to deal with the concrete, logic is my strength.  I still enjoy fiction, metaphors etc, as long as those ideas are expressed in that manner and not as facts.

Typos often stand out to me and it takes me a while to get back into the full context.  I lose patience when some posters don't even appear to make an attempt at writing without excessive typos.  It feels like a lack of respect for those reading.

Hi Pinga...

A fine example of the challenge presented by the loss of affective presence. Saying "walk away", I mean only getting a little space to maintain my "gracious" bearing. Then I am able to return for a balanced engagement in the hope of remedy.

As to boundary matters in this place. I wholly agree with your premise in the quote above. We flag inappropriate language, we limit inappropriate language, we block where inappropriate language persists.

I consider name calling to represent inappropriate language, in light of our shared hope.

George

I am not bothered too much by typos. Funny, I often spend plenty of time editing my own but others' don't bother me. Some people have poor spelling and grammar and it's not their fault, and maybe they don't know how or it would take much too long to use spell check rather than to just make a quick post and get the general idea across. I'm okay with being accommodating about that.

The challenge with that geofee is that you and I will not agree on what us inappropriate language .

I suggest that folks on this site can be scathing in their dismissal and never use in appropriate language

So, then let's vow not to be scathing in our dismissal, and dismiss ideas rather than people.

I have a couple relatives who have turned to what I think are some pretty squirrelly fundementalist Christian ideas over the years. I hadn't realized how much until recently because we're good as long as religion doesn't come up. I love them. I had to try really hard to find an angle to come at the discussion so that I wouldn't end up calling them 'idiots'- because my intention wasn't to hurt their feelings, and that would have. And vice versa had they called me an idiot.

Thanks Kimmio...!
.
As human being we are one. Let's wrestle with the ideas that divide us to liberate the ideas that unite us.
.
I am not on the side of one over an other. I am on our side working for our unity in spirit and in truth.
.
The game called top dog holds absolutely no interest for me.
.
That game is now set to implode.
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It is the game of side by side that now invites our participation.
.
George

Geo.....

Pinga

Your quote above to chansen:

I am happy to walk past the fool on the corner, whereas you seem to wish to engage them. end of quote

Thank you for speaking so nicely of the people on the WC. I find this remark to be very offensive.

chansen

Your quote:But yes, conspiracy theorists, of the sort that Blackbelt listens to, are idiots, because they will believe anything. end of quote

I am so very happy that you KNOW everything there is to KNOW about everything. I am surprised that such a genius as yourself bows so low as to communicate with the likes of us here on the WC.  You must be quite desperate. 

stardust, 

I do not presume that each person who posts ot wondercafe bothers to spend the same amount of time on research or quality of post as others.

Yes, I do find at times there are the equivalent of the fool on the corner or the drunk at the bar. 

If you have never encountered any of those individuals in your posting at wondercafe, then you havent' travelled the same threads as I or encountered the same posts.

Thank you stardust...!
.
Truth speaks to error kindly in the hope of remedy.
.
George
.

George, it's not error when the error has been proven to be false and in bad faith. Then it's just a lie.

Actually, I often skip the videos that some people post, but today I watched a video that unsafe posted. An old CBC news piece about Haarp that was eyebrow raising. And a couple of years ago anyone discussing the sorts of things Snowden revealed, in all seriousness, would have been called an 'idiot' conspiracy theorist. There are people like Glenn Beck who make up whacky ideas to get attention, and unfortunately it works, he hooks people in. But that doesn't mean there aren't things to be legitimately concerned about. The concept of 'Big Brother' has been around for awhile and it's not all silliness. Getting the lies mixed up with the genuine concerns is a concern though. For example, the Agenda 21 thing didn't alarm me, nor did the Georgia Guidestones thing- it was built by an anonymous group of people who had something to say. Big deal. So they carved it on a slab of rock somewhere in Georgia USA. That's called free speech. Internet wasn't around then. Anonymous people say whacky things for the world to read millions of times a day.

Seriously? You're upset by that? Pinga isn't referring to anyone but potentially Blackbelt there.

I know that Blackbelt is lying. I demonstrated that Blackbelt is lying. There's no desperation in me at all, because I'm correct on these points. Using CAPS online is desperate.

Blackbelt believes someone else's lie about JFK. That doesn't mean he's consciously lying or that everything he believes are lies.

My eye just gets drawn to them at times.  I always hated tests that had typos for that very reason.

If it's simple I get drawn to it for a bit longer than a typical word, but can usually read the context on the first try.  More typos = more concentration on the message.

Some people have better grammar and spelling than others.  I'm willing to be accommodating about that too.  I start to lose my patience when the writer appears to lack accommodations for the reader.

Exactly.

Look, there are government forces at work all over the world, influencing all sorts of decisions, absolutely. Edward Snowden did more to uncover US government surveillance and information gathering on supposed allies and their own people, than all of the conspiracy theorists put together. More that that, he has been truthful. Conspiracy theorists are often not truthful, exaggerating or plain inventing information to spread fear.

These people are fear merchants. They package it and sell it through clickthroughs, books, speaking tours, etc.

Edward Snowden is in hiding in Russia. These conspiracy theorists are free to roam the US. Tell me who the US is scared of?

My biggest mistake here? Conspiracy theorists are not idiots. Seriously, my bad. I should not have called them that. They are con artists. They are scammers. They are not necessarily stupid. They exist to take you into their little world and make you scared, not through any great inside information they've uncovered, but through a careful mix of truth, lies, and apparently misquotes galore. They are manipulative con artists, and being taken in by them is one thing. Being shown the truth, and attempting to mock the person who outed the lie? What do you want me to call that? I'm open to ideas.

Bad quoting drives me crazy, as does excessive quoting, or just grabbing and linking a tons of stuff.  

That doesn't mean the person is an idiot or a twit, just nto someone that i want to engage with.

We each have our own styles of people we wish to engage with in social circles.  There is no difference on this site...it is a social media.  If you can't master the basics of social media exchange, then odds are, you will need to offer some excellent content or you will be sidelined or dismissed.   We can do our best, but, just like haliotisis (?) will impact your ability to get dates, so will bad posting impact your ability to get read.  

Actually, Alex pointed something out on the thread, that the speeches by JFK before his death were recorded, and none of them contain the sentence Blackbelt attributed to him, from the conspiracy website, of course. Before that, I posted a link to the most likely source of the quote - a speech about "secret societies", where JFK was obviously referring to the Soviet Union. Again, the quote wasn't in the speech, and could not be accurately summarized in the quote attributed to him.

So, it's a lie, and Blackbelt has been made aware of it, but refuses to acknowledge the truth.

Pinga

Thanks. I understand. The fool on the corner or the drunk at the bar is not worthy of your time, your concern, your attention, or your love. There are many who agree with you.

Do you often call people fools. If so, does it mean they are foolish and of a lesser character and intelligence  than yourself. I am curious. 

Stardust, the bible calls people like me a "fool".

Your move.

You forgot for some it's a symptom of mental illness.  A symptom that shouldn't be further encouraged.

No, i did not say they are not worthy of my time, stardust.  I said that I would not engage with them.  Please do not put words in my "mouth"

I rarely call people fools.  You presume that this is about IQ.  That is your blind spot, not mine.