bumpiness is next to godliness

If, as I believe, God is the creative power that created the universe, then there is only one God. And if one believes our uiverse to be in a state of synthesis, which I also believe, then this universe is self-creative.

According to science, the Principle of Complementarity is the underlying principle of the universe. Although there can be no experimental proof that our universe is in a sate of synthesis, the Principle of Complementarity, which says that opposites necessitate each other, incontrovertibly decrees that the universe we analyze is in a state of synthesis. The cosmic analysis is the proof for the cosmic synthesis.

In self-creative universe there is no line separating Creator from created. Created and Creator are one.

Although there is no line separating us human individuals from our Creator, an important distinction needs to be made between the two. The Creator is the cosmic totality, wheras the individual is an inseparable part of the totality. Although the two are united, they are not the same. The difference between God and us, however, is not a matter of separation but rather a matter of distinction.

The beauty with my self-creative universe is that everyone is right. If the cosmic totality is God, then there is, of course, only one God, and the monotheists are right. But, if everything is God, then there also is no God, and the atheists, non-theists and agnostics are right. And, if everything is God, then there can be any number of gods, and the multi-theists are right.

Take your pick!

In Cosmic Unity,

Arminius

Hi RevJohn,

One God.

The one God above all other Gods is just a nicer way to say to someone who believes in multiple Gods, Buddy you are talking to a piece of wood or a lump of gold "“ It can't help you.

But I will review some scripture with your viewpoint in mind to see if it takes.

SNP wrote "The one God above all other Gods is just a nicer way to say to someone who believes in multiple Gods, Buddy you are talking to a piece of wood or a lump of gold "“ It can't help you."

Priceless....at least you know the lump of gold or the piece of wood is there.

Saul_now_Paul,

Hi,

You wrote:

The one God above all other Gods is just a nicer way to say to someone who believes in multiple Gods, Buddy you are talking to a piece of wood or a lump of gold "“ It can't help you.

Maybe. I don't think when God shared the 10 Commandments that God wanted to do so in the warmest and fuzziest way possible. Otherwise they would probably read. "Please don't . . ." instead of "You shall not . . ."

And when Paul is talking about idols I cannot for the life of me imagine him being overly concerned about not appearing sensitive enough. If the guy is prepared to tear a strip off of Peter for eating kosher then I think he wouldn't hesitate to say that the idols were just lumps of wood or stone.

His discourse about the unknown God was not about how there was only one God it was about the God that they admitted to having no knowledge about.

You wrote:

But I will review some scripture with your viewpoint in mind to see if it takes.

Fair enough.

Please also note that nowhere do I advocate worshipping other Gods. I only allow that scripture seems to believe that these other Gods exist in some fashion.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I have a slightly different take on the "other gods".

I don't limit God nto one nature, one revelation, one "face", as it were. I cannot help but wonder if our need to have the "right" God is more because of our need to be superior over our neighbours, than to be closer to God.

I view the 10 commandments in a much more cultural bucket. I can see God saying "Thou (Hebrew people) shall have no other (face of) Gods before me. (This version of myself is the only one I wish to relate to you by. My other faces are for other people.)

Of course I am equally comfortable with the idea of Moses getting sick of all the theological fighting and going up the hill where nobody could see him so he could chip some words into a piece of sandstone, just to end all the bickering.

Hi RevJohn,

You shall have no other Gods before me.

When that was written, they were already in the process of whipping together a Golden Calf.

The bible also says that none of us have kept this commandment.

I am sure I have never worshiped another god, like a golden calf. So it must be something else.

For me it would be sometimes money, the female form, a great car, pleasure, danger. I don't know "“ stuff like that, but they are not big G gods. Just stuff that draw us away from God.

Witch,

Hi,

You wrote:

I view the 10 commandments in a much more cultural bucket. I can see God saying "Thou (Hebrew people) shall have no other (face of) Gods before me. (This version of myself is the only one I wish to relate to you by. My other faces are for other people.)

This is a good point. God calls the Hebrew out and sets about a process of distinction establishing laws that are out of synch with the religious world around them.

This would shift the focus of study from the issue of is there just one God to why this particular face of God?

Nice addition to the conversation thanks.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Saul_now_Paul,

Hi,

You wrote:

You shall have no other Gods before me.

When that was written, they were already in the process of whipping together a Golden Calf.

True. Of course the commandment not to make or bow down in worship to any graven images is right there also.

You wrote:

The bible also says that none of us have kept this commandment.

Does it specifically say all have failed in this commandment or does it just say that we have fallen short without identifying how exactly all of us have done that?

To break one commandment carries the same consequences of breaking them all.

Whether we worship another god or worship an idol we have broken a commandment and made ourselves adversaries of God.

You wrote:

For me it would be sometimes money, the female form, a great car, pleasure, danger. I don't know "“ stuff like that, but they are not big G gods. Just stuff that draw us away from God.

I agree with you to a point. I guess I'm working at splitting a hair and you seem to be binding it up.

I think that the first and second commandments of the 10 are pointing to two separate offenses.

1. Do not worship other Gods (we may not know how "God/gods" were defined by the Hebrews at the time. What we do know is that the Hebrew word translated into English as God in verse 2 is the same Hebrew word translated into gods in verse 3.

2. Do not make any graven image is using different language altogether.

I see the first commandment as prohibiting worship of other gods and the second commandment as prohibiting the worship of things not even considered to be god by the God handing the commandments down.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Witch,

Hi,

You wrote:

Of course I am equally comfortable with the idea of Moses getting sick of all the theological fighting and going up the hill where nobody could see him so he could chip some words into a piece of sandstone, just to end all the bickering.

I wish I had that way out.

Still, that kind of creativity seems a bit beyond Moses' reach.

If it weren't for his father-in-law he'd have burnt himself out listening to petty complaints.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I have heard that there are a thousand different names for God. I believe this shows that there are many, many ways of thinking about God - of knowing God. But I believe that it is all the same God. The gods that my Buddhist friend talked about; the god of a river, of fire, of the mountain; were all aspects of one god. The sacred cows were part of god's creation, respected (held sacred) because of their usefullness.
I believe that El, YWHW, Jehovah, Sophia are all aspects of one god - the great I AM.
One god made manifest in many different ways.

There is only one God. But there are infinite spirits.

'Gods,' with a small 'g,' confuses modern humans whose spiritual cosmology only includes four spirits: God, Jesus, souls and the devil. Anything outside of these defaults to the latter.

God does have a specific consciousness, despite the latest thinking on the matter. And He is All Creation at the same time. Within that Supreme Consciousness, an infinite number of consciousnesses exist. We have lost touch with this reality. We have lost the ability, and now even struggle to perceive God, Whom most people think they can find only in their fellow Christ-sparked humans.

Christianity got quite confused, starting with the Great Commandment during Jewish times, and then spiritual reality was totally squeezed out when the Church was destroying its rivals. When it had finally won, and reduced reality to being just God, humans and dust, science was born, which totally agreed that reality is just humans, matter and energy, but just left out God. Not much of a major shift there.

God said to not have any other Gods but He. God didn't say the spirit world didn't exist, just don't mistake other spirits as God. We just eliminated the whole spiritual realm, and are now left with only human spirituality.

But most spirits are on God's side. The Spirit of Mother Earth loved God so much, She agreed to sacrifice Her Creation so that His souls could learn using knowledge instead of wisdom. Earth religions cannot know Mother Earth if they do not recognize the She starts from Her Love of the Creator.

I've seen an Archangel at work. I thought he was going to do one smashing number on a problem for me. But no, he acted the exact same way that God would have, with a depth of wisdom and gentleness and transparency that was awe-inspiring in its love, but not the fireworks he is known for.

So there are two spirits that are in cohoots with God, and act with the same love and wisdom because they know who they are as part of Him.

God was only telling us the difference between Him and the spirits, that ancient CIVILIZED pagans were worshipping, hoping to further their selfish goals. By calling them 'gods' just confused us over the centuries. Since we are so spiritually illiterate visa vis spiritual reality, it is no wonder we have a hard time understanding the one true God as solely Christianity's version, to the exclusion of all else.

Our contemporary challenge is to figure out why God gave different versions of spirituality and spiritual reality to all the civilizations in history, and now they face each other in the most spiritless time in all of history.

We are very smart. Can we figure it out, and in the process come to know the one true God and His full Creation in a much bigger way than just the only other consciousness outside of exalted humans living in inert matter?

SW wrote, "Our contemporary challenge is to figure out why God gave different versions of spirituality and spiritual reality to all the civilizations in history, and now they face each other in the most spiritless time in all of history."

Could the different versions of spirituality around the world simply be reflections/expressions of the natural environment of the people living in them? We can easily relate/be sensitive to the seasons, animals, geography, plants, etc. of the area we actually live in. So, it makes sense that the spiritual would be revealed to us in ways we can comprehend.

The spiritual stories of the Arctic are then logically/naturally different than those from Africa. One does not invalidate the other.

The Christian scriptures are very far removed from us both in terms of time, about 2000 years, and environment, the middle eastern desert. Christian theology then moved thru Europe, and much of the world, killing the existing spiritualities already flourishing there. The same could also be said of its cousin, Islam.

Its very difficult for every culture/person in the world to relate to dead, ancient, middle eastern, desert revelations, but we are told that is our only choice. So we struggle to "get" it, all the while blinded to the rich spiritual energy all around us all the time. Its there for us if we can just acknowledge it and open our mind.

Its no surprise then, that we are now left spiritless.

A spiritually gifted friend of mine does not live by any doctrine, other than what is revealed to him where ever he happens to be. Its constant for him, quite amazing.

Yes, it was very easy for religion to thrive when people worked with the life of Nature to survive. But in the last century everyone moved from the farm to live in manufactured objects almost exclusively. So we have almost no contact with non-human life, except the domesticated family dog. From this desert the Church asks us to find 'God,' and God alone, another, singular greater, undefinable consciousness. And that God must compete against modern civilization's lack of need for any other consciousness to help feed and heal them. We do it all by ourselves using science and business.

Christianity had to be brutal. The spirit world was just too real and obvious for every other peoples on the planet. How do you get people to stop being so spiritual when they see reality as spiritual, instead of broken into three, God, humans and inert matter? By force!

It is interesting that Native people become Christians and reject their deep wisdom about reality. This is what happens when you destroy a culture and force them from a wisdom culture into a mind culture, where knowledge trumps wisdom every time.

Without any wisdom around that the dominant mind is not messing with, the fear and loneliness drives them to the only spirit allowed in modern civilization, Christ. Its a wonderful case study on how its done, and reflects our state that we are born into.

Christianity's son, science, simply did to dad what dad did to everyone else. Now the old man is gasping for air. His sins find him out in his old age. And his errant son is simply becoming his father as he matures, wiping out all rivals of reality around him. It is quite amusing, really.

Every religion has done the same, but not so neurotically as Christianity. Islam took over its antecedents. Hinduism, Buddhism, all the great religions pushed out their rivals. Religion is a department of civilization, responsible for spiritual matters, like the army for protection, or the tax department. It isolates and controls the spiritual for the organizers of civilization, mind-and-knowledge culture.

Now the competing corporations face each other seriously for the first time in this global village. But they remain in their forts, only really feeling threatened by the marauding business-science armies besieging them.

Now Christianity is gasping for air, drowning in its own ocean of thinking, unable to attract new believers, while its son, business-science is doing a better job than dad taking over the world and uprooting everyone's innate sense of spirituality by simply removing them from living with the life of the natural world, and forcing them to live in manufactured objects. Decimated, the spiritual is now converted into a spiritual marketplace, like any other mall, totally unable to compete against its dominant son, who has purified and perfected the dominance of the mind over all things.

When we approach Christianity, we begin from our place as mind-man living in inanimate, man-made objects, looking anthropologically and archaeologically at these strange artifacts from earlier, less successful civilizations. We are superior. We have evolved and are not so easily duped by the lack of clarity the fog of religious illusion cast over all other previous versions of civilization. The dominant mind has come into its own. Christianity begins with the mind-twisting exercise of figuring out the concepts of the Bible and then strenuously trying to apply them to our situation.

Where Christianity once argued that the spirit world didn't exist, now it finds itself struggling to convince itself of God's existence. It's quite the reversal. The debate about God is just as thick and complex about His existence and nature as it is about Jesus. Everyone's got their own opinions. There is no common spiritual experience to put the obvious to rest. God is no longer obvious. The only thing that is obvious is humans living in inert matter. Everything else is debatable.

So Christianity doesn't have time to delve into spiritual reality. It is struggling just to keep God alive. And since the hierarchy requires accreditation from the supreme mind institution, university, to be considered an authority on these matters, not spiritual experience, it is no wonder the Titanic is sinking.

The reality of God goes against so many of our prejudices, it is awe-inspiring the web we have woven for ourselves.

God is not to be analyzed, broken down, conceptualized, theorized.

God is the shock of everything becoming ONE.

God is the rebirth of the exact opposite of where we find ourselves in modernity.

Don't give me a preacher that has a Ph.D. Give me a preacher that is going to shake my foundations to its very core from the overwhelming spiritual experience and reality that runs counter to everything civilization AND religion teaches. THERE is AUTHORITY! Truth from experience that runs counter to mind culture. Truth that runs counter to Adam's choice to live from knowledge instead of wisdom.

Christianity still has not understood the real reason why Jesus Christ was sent. It is not clear. Christ was sent to present a reality so opposite to the inane mind culture of blood lust, bloodthirsty, Judeo-Roman civilization. His reality was so counter to the principles of mind culture that He seduced every weakness of the dominant mind into solving this complete impossibility of reality, the Son of God, who could manipulate reality with just a thought.

The dominant mind took the bait. It couldn't let this challenge to its unnatural authority go uncontrolled. And the man turned to legend and then into myth. And all of civilization was transformed, not using the heart, but the head. Now mind culture feeds the poor and heals the sick better than ever before, not from the heart or spiritual reality, but from knowledge. Bravo Christianity! You did what you were supposed to do, even though you had no idea what you were actually doing!

Now this pride of mind culture's triumph using knowledge creates the overweaning pride that is conquering the world, and global warming is about to teach it an ultimate reality that it does not want to face.

Nature is about to sit on us. Life, consciousness beyond the isolated human individual living in manufactured objects, dependent on invisible numbers to survive, is about to confront the sin of killing all other LIFE in this dimension of Creation. God will once again become ONE with Mother Earth and in human hearts. The authority of the dominant mind is all but dead. Enjoy it now, or prepare for the coming decades of new revelation.

Christianity has all this information. It just simply does not understand what's going on. It is civilized. And what do we know of civilization, if all we have ever known is civilization?

The field guns are being lined up around the civilized fortress. We think we are smart enough to withstand the siege. It is August, 1914. We look back with pride at all the accomplishments of the time of the kings, the dominant mind. We have no idea what power we have awakened and unleashed, and we have every reason to debate it, and stay in our history debate about God and Jesus.

If we don't understand the true story of civilization that is making the Earth one giant city of consumers, we will never be challenged to go beyond the limits of spirituality in Christianity. We are fighting old battles. We don't realize that everything has changed. The Holy Spirit, who has guided events for 2000 years has been sent on vacation. God is now taking direct control, and we have no idea that God is not just responsible for human life, but all the life of His Creation. We don't even know that Creation exists. We think it is there for our use and abuse, a management problem.

God is the shock of reality coming down upon the ignorant.

If you don't have a job, you have no money, and can't buy food. You live because of money and a grocery store business. Without those two, we starve.

Do you trust business? Can we even begin to imagine and then create an alternate survival system if the world economic order collapses? Or are we too smart to see the obvious? Our survival system divorced from the life that sustains us is so fragile. Humans now starve spiritually because of mind culture. What happens when the Titanic starts to sink, and we try to theorize how our modern Love God fits into all this?

Fair warning. Take the shock of God and conscious Creation now, or be forced to in the coming decades. God does not make sense in religion or modern civilization. Are we mature enough to grow out of mind culture, or will its cancer doom us all?

Hello revjohn, God bless you......

Great subject, so much can be said here......

My thoughts lay on the One God, the Creator of All Things....

Throughout the history of the world in all different cultures and religions, they say other Gods exist. Gods who were put in place to be overseerers of diffrent things.

Idols, well that is a different things all together, I would not worship anything with a physical apperance. I do believe some people do put themselves first and continue to try and get peace and harmony from, wealth, cars, money, clothing etc.

If other Gods do indeed exist , I have the faith in A One God who , would deligate what needs to be done , for I do believe in the oneness of all creation.

I guess it comes down to what works for each one of us, when we walk the spiritual walk. If you feel one thing may work for you, then like myself , I would want to share , the hows , whys, whens and wheres.

God is Love and it comes, I believe in many forms and in many ways
This is the Eternal, Creator, Most High God of my life....

Praise Jesus, He is the Truth, The Way, The Light
IJL:bg

I very much agree with oui and her spirtually gifted friend. I too feel the indigenous spirtuality of this country. I feel in the earth, in the water and in the air, in the plant and animal life around me and in our indigenous people.

This is our FIRST spirituality, the spirtuality of our FIRST Nations. It has evolved here, it belongs here! It is in the very flora and fauna of our land. It was here FIRST, and still is FIRST! We ought to make this animistic, earth centered, intuitive and mystical FIRST spirituality of our country into our OLD TESTAMENT!

I think the United Church would do well to become truly UNITED by uniting into a GRAND UNIFICATION with the indigenous spirtuality of our land, and embrace the earth-centered, intuitive sprituality and the mystical traditions that have eveolved here, and belong here, and are an inseparable part of this land.

Well said Arminius. Just wondering, why should the indigenous spirituality be the old testament? It was here both before and after Christ. Why should it be displaced by christianity at all?

Quite right, Oui.

Buddhism provides good criticism of Christianity.

Christianity creates good criticism of Hinduism.

Islam provides good criticism of other confusions in other religions.

Judaism tells its kids, Islam and Christianity, what their problems are.

Christianity provides good criticism toward Buddhism.

And Native spirituality shows all of them how they can't put it all together.

The reality that religions are sitting in. The reality that the civilized are sitting in, but can't get a handle on.

Bravo!

If everything is many, then the many is one.
If everything is one, then the one is many.

seeler,

Hi,

You wrote:

I have heard that there are a thousand different names for God. I believe this shows that there are many, many ways of thinking about God - of knowing God. But I believe that it is all the same God.

I do not disagree with this understanding. The naming aspect differs when we consider that there are proper names and there are relational names.

I have given names. John is one and Robert is another. I answer to John. A few of my more obtuse friends have called my "Johnny" (which I loathe) One young woman I was very much smitten with could call me "Jonathan" in a way which made me wish that was my actual name and others have used it pretentiously and made me very thankful that it is not my actual name.

I have relational titles as well. Dad, to my kids. Uncle, to my nephews and nieces, Son to my parents, Brother to my sister, sisters-in-law and brothers-in-law. Cousin to my cousins and their kin and Friend to others.

Hence it would be possible that someone taling about John and someone talking about their brother are talking about me.

Someone talking about John and someone talking about Russell are not talking about me.

Which leads to the predicament.

Is every name used for God addressing the same God?

I don't believe that it is.

While I think that the names of God is almost unlimited I believe that it is only almost and not, as a matter of fact, actually unlimited.

Some bow the knee to Satan--do they really worship God instead?

Some have bowed the knee to Ba'al--were they actually worshipping God instead?

I believe both were worshipping their deity. I just do not know that those deities are simply a facet of the same God I worship. I suspect that they are actually other but at this point it is just a belief.

What I do know from observation is that there are some who use a different name to address God than I have ever used and yet, something about them tells me that they understand God in pretty much the same way I have always known God. There are others who use exactly the same language, the same names for God that I have always used but their understanding of God is dramatically different from mine.

Grace and peace to you.

John

RevJohn said: "It very much sounds to me like our God believes in the existence of other gods."
You are right in noting that the Bible speaks of other 'gods' on numerous occasions. Yet, perhaps when God says "You shall have no other 'gods' before me, he is relating to man on his terms. These other 'gods' have been confabulated by them (ie. a golden calf- which is not a conscious being), or other mythological gods of ancient Greek folklore, etc. But I do not believe that when God speaks of other 'gods', he means that there are lesser 'deities' in the supernatural realm- with the possible exception of demons, which are not deities. Here are some passages also from the Bible alluding this issue:

-"You praised the gods of silver and gold, of bronze, iron, wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or understand." (Dan 5:23/Deut 4:28/ Rev 9:20 etc)
These 'gods' were not conscious.

-Isaiah 45 sheds light on this issue well- "I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God." (v 5) This is repeated numerous times in chapter 45.

-"We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one." (1 Cor 8:4b)
-"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." (John 17:3)
-"How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God?" (John 5:44)
-"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that"”and shudder." (James 2:19)

Geo,

Hello and welcome to WonderCafe,

You wrote:

You are right in noting that the Bible speaks of other 'gods' on numerous occasions.

Thank you for that affirmation.

You wrote:

Yet,

Uh-oh. Geo giveth and Geo taketh away. :)

You wrote:

perhaps when God says "You shall have no other 'gods' before me, he is relating to man on his terms. These other 'gods' have been confabulated by them (ie. a golden calf- which is not a conscious being), or other mythological gods of ancient Greek folklore, etc.

That is a possiblity.

If the possibility stands the second of the 10 Commandments is does not stand alone, it is a reiteration of the first Commandment and there would only be nine of them.

Since nowhere else in the decalogue God feels the need to repeat or rephrase a Commandment I am left with a puzzle. Was the first Commandment insufficient instruction requiring a sub commandment traditionally thought of as the second or is it actually a different commandment speaking to something quite different.

Again the word "elohim" is used to reference the God who gave the Commandment and the gods forbidden worship in the first Commandment given.

Grace and peace to you.

John

One God....absolutely.

As to other Gods, absolutely.

Again, as in a few other posts, we are touching base on partial truths.

Arminius has spoken often of truth, and/or the likeness of truth.

To expand....the one God that you speak of, is the one True God, and the others are literal and in essence, lesser gods.

Gods that have been created, in the literal sense, are often referred to as an allagory. God warns us to not worship false gods and to not bow down to these lesser Gods, because He, the one True god, is a jealous God.

No different than when, in the carnal way, a man marries a women, and is jealous if she starts going after other men. (jump on board Atheisto)....
God has set up all these life issues as examples of His own criteria.

There are so many gods out there, and not coincidently. They have been put there to tempt us, and they do...a reminder as to why, ultimatly,we need God.

The one true GOD

.....sister

John you have done some very nice reflections here.

A few thoughts - anthropological context has influence but to reduce difference down to context is in the end to deny there is a reference to the speech-acts - that is a source. Thus the thousand views may suggest a unified source but time, space, and context refracts that source.

There is a difference between godless and gods religions - the case of many gods ( which the early to accepted) still suggests a god source - some unity.

There is a whole other discussion of the nature of religion but I accept Taylor's definition - some reference to a transcendent reality who has an interest in this world and how humans flourish.

Given that there is also the evolution of culture and religions forms thus we have a history of God - by mining the texts ( of gods centered religions) we might discover a God - but as you say each revelation gives us a different refraction of the unity. Our language suggests a unity and gives us only partial glimpses of it.

Hello RevJohn.....God bless you....

 

I still believe in the one God...I believe when the ten commandemnts were given that human kind may have worshipped other things they thought were Gods...and that is why I think God said...they shall worship no other Gods...meaning they were worshipping humankind Gods....like SP says...material things , wood, stone, dung beatles, sun, moon etc...

 

IJL:bg

 

 

Hi bygraceiam,

 

 

I think that is very reasonable.  I also think at some point there would have been a better explanation. 

 

It is true that Paul provides a discourse on idols.

 

It is also true that on Mars Hill Paul didn't say that none of the other gods existed at all.  That might just be Paul being prudent and thinking that the opportunity to bear witness is better if everyone is not trying to kill him.  Still, Paul doesn't seem to show that same kind of prudence elsewhere.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi blackbelt,

 

 

Well . . . since you were so complimentary maybe.

 

 

Fair enough.  You operate out of an a priori assumption.  I have used the same revelation you reference to build my argument.  So is my interpretation off?

 

 

Agreed.  But that is the actual point isn't it?  There are other gods.  A thing doesn't become god just because it is before God instead of beside God.

 

 

Is that really what God sees or do you just imagine it to be what God sees?

 

 

I think that you are barking up the wrong tree here friend.  The history of Satan runs roughshod over your premise.  Lucifer is the light-bringer and we are informed that he has the ability to masquerade as an angel of light.  Trying to cast the difference between God and Satan in the absolutes of dark and light works on some levels but not on all levels.  I believe that in masquerade mode it is not the difference between dark and light so much as it is in the quality of light.  Sort of like the difference between sunlight and a lightbulb.

 

 

I think that there is a difference between a false god and the "other gods" of the commandments.  Hence the requirement for two separate commandments to deal with the difference.

 

Grace and peace to you.

Hey Rev John,

 

I just noticed this was thread posted some time ago, I'm thankful I can still add to it!

 

I had been thinking about your topic since last night. To be honest when I first read it, I was like 'no, there is only one God' then you mentioned the scripures that would have God mention other gods...so, I'll just give my thoughts...I believe when God mentioned 'above all other god' I think He wasn't meaning gods in the sense people think of gods...I believe gods are something or someone people give their time and attention to...it could be work, it could be the environment, it could be statues, other people and yes false gods which seem to have power but doesn't compare to the God, creator of heaven and earth...in the old testament, He had that God showdown and His authority was clearly defined...He created us to seek and desire something greater then us, I'm certain He was hoping it would be Him, but He also created us with free will knowing not everyone would choose Him.

 

In choosing to serve God, I asked myself who benefits from it? It is not for my gain (unless you consider a peaceful and eternal life), it's not to benefit a physical church, it is about loving others as He has loved us.

 

Interesting topic indeed!

 

jen

 

 

Yes, but who has made them out to be gods? Certainly not God himself, therefore if there power as god was not given by The God, they must be operating as false gods, they have no authority to do so , but still allowed by the Creator and they lie to keep there positions, thus the name father of lies. If i force you out of your position and i am successful at it through lies and deceit, for a time i will enjoy the benefits of that position, once in a while i keep on lying to protect my position I took illegally or to show that i have strength, i can also speak the truth as you have, yet my position is a false one and thus i operate out of falsehood. From what i understand, God knows that he is all there really is , Deuteronomy 4:35, Deuteronomy 4:39, Deuteronomy 6:4, Deuteronomy 32:39, 1 Kings 18:39, Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 44:8, Isaiah 45:5-6, Isaiah 46:9, Mark 12:29, Mark 12:32, John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6 Good point, I agree that absolutes of dark and light don’t work on all levels but its a starting point I would say that satan even though in darkness, uses light for his dark deeds, allowed by God, kinda like some false preachers, they speak truth, use truth and even preformed some healings, why are they still false preachers if they are operating in the realm of Truth? I could be wrong , God forbid that I think I know everything , I believe other gods, though still gods , operate as gods have certain abilities as gods but are still not the one True self existent God, so since the Creator himself is the embodiment of Truth , all other gods must be false even though they can use truth for there false agenda.

revjohn

 

If as blackbelt ponits out - "When we place an object between us and a light source  we get dark shadows before us, if we place these dark shadows as God between the light and us , we lose sight of the one true life source, God."

 

How does the notion of praying to Saints fit in?

 

This is something that I could never fathom.

 

 

IT

 

Russ

Hi jensamember,

 

I don't think I have gotten around to formally welcoming you to the WonderCafe (not that I own the place or have any official capacity here) so, welcome to WonderCafe.ca.

 

 

I've been tagging old threads since the search engine was disabled and I think that may have bumped a whole bunch of old stuff for folk.  Anyway, some conversations just need a bit of a pause before they can continue.

 

 

 

Maybe.  I'm beginning to think that people think of God as a name rather than a title and that is why they have a hard time with the concept of more than one god.  It is a bit like the distinction between LORD, Lord and lord where it is all one name but there are conventions that expand the meaning of that one word.

 

In the Hebrew when they are talking about God or gods they are usually using elohim which is translated (depending upon context) into the generic god.  Because in English we capitalize names I think that this has caused some confusion and artificial distinction between God and gods.  I believe that the convention is meant to distinguish but the words remain the same. 

 

 

I agree with you.  That doesn't mean that there aren't other gods though.  It just means that God didn't want us to worship them.

 

Again, there are two commandments one forbidding worship of other gods and one forbidding the worship of idols.  An idol is something we set up as a god (like a golden calf or something).  If these other gods are nothing more than idols why two separate commandments?

 

That's my quandry.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

[/quote]

 I agree with you.  That doesn't mean that there aren't other gods though.  It just means that God didn't want us to worship them.

 

 Hey RevJohn, I'm not sure I selected the correct 'quote feature' and thanks for the welcome!...anyway...I was just wondering, do you think God was meaning gods as in other powerful entities or as in things like idols or objects? 

 

It is a good question and I understand your quandry...good point on the word 'god' in general. I have always been cafeful in my use of the term.

 

Hi blackbelt,

 

 

Hold on.  When God says do not worship any other gods is he not, in fact, testifying to the existence of other gods?

 

I have not put forward the position that these other gods are not created beings.  I have put forward the position that God acknowledges there are other entities which have rightful access to the title of god and God declares that he is the ultimate.

 

Just as there are other lords but God is Lord of all.  These other lords are not false lords they just can't claim the same kind of lorship that God can claim. 

 

 

No, maybe, no, maybe, no, yes, no, yes, This one is tricky it is both a yes and a no, no, maybe but it isn't God speaking, no, no there is a distinct qualification in the passage.

 

The clear picture that all of the texts you referenced is painting is that the God who is speaking is clearly the one who wants all of our attention and is not willing to share that attention with any other rivals.

 

The texts for the most part do not deny the existence of other gods as other gods.  In fact, God makes a stronger point of distinction between what God can do and what the other gods can do.  A distinction which is not required if those other gods do not, as a matter of fact, exist.  It is kind of like arguing who is the better swimmer between Mike Phelps and Aquaman.  Now if I compare Mike Phelps to Ian Thorpe or Mark Spitz there is a real ability to compare because we are now dealing with competing realities rather than something that is really real being compared with an imaginary figure. 

 

 

And this is where I am trying to go.  It isn't that Satan fabricates everything.  A completely invented lie would be discerned far too easily.  It is the half-truth which lays folk low more often than not.  There is some truth but it is twisted and corrupted.  Perhaps these other gods that we are not permitted to worship are really gods but also twisted and corrupted.

 

I think when God proclaims that he is unlike other Gods he is making the argument as to purity more so than reality. 

 

 

I think this is what I'm trying to point out.  There is one God who is above all other gods.  That God, for us, is the only god.  Just as there is one people of God but there are other people.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

[/quote]

Hi jensamember,

 

 

I think "god" is a loaded term.  I think that what it meant in the time of Moses or Jesus and now has shifted.

 

We think of the word as a name.  I'm not so sure that is what it is meant to be.  When God is pressed by Moses to proclaim his name he doesn't answer God.  Y/H/W/H is nowhere near elohim.  In fact, our Jewish brothers and sisters when reading the text in synagogue can and do say elohim aloud but say adonai when Y/H/W/H appears in the text.

 

Elohim = god.  Adonai = lord.

 

The same commandments which prohibit the worshipping of Gods and idols also compel the believer to remember the name of the lord and keep it holy.  So god is title and not name.  By convention we capitalize the G in god when we are identifying one specific god.  As Christians we recognize God to be the one who handed down the commandments at Sinaii.  Our God.  The one we alone worship as God.  The one that no gods may come before.

 

Which leads me to suspect that there is more than one god.

 

I don't believe that all gods are equal.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

 

It is a good question and I understand your quandry...good point on the word 'god' in general. I have always been cafeful in my use of the term.

 

[/quote]

Yes I agree, but who gave the authority to these other gods?, it was man, so even though God upholds the laws that govern authority, the other gods got there authority through deceit and not through delegation from the ultimate authority, making there clams of god a false clam. I believe we are on the same wave length that there are other gods, i agree with this , what i am saying is that the other gods are false because there authority is not from the Creator God. If you or i were to take over a country by force and lies, we would sit as the governing authority over that kingdom and enjoy the benefits of it , I also have power over that country, i can exercise my will over that country, yet my position is not true, my position did not come by the will of the people or the will of an ultimate creator, my position came by my will. In other words my position is a false one. Kinda like the story of King author O I cant agree with you more! 100% correct , even though false gods tell the truth at times, the truth they tell is still rooted in falsehood, making the speaker of them a lire, but the truth is still truth. Yes and no, purity of God is reality because before anything ever was, God always Is , so reality and purity must come from him I agree , even though there are other gods, one is True and all others false Good topic

"even though there are other gods, one is True and all others false"

 

In your opinion

Ash-hadu an la ilaha ill allah anna muhammad-ar rasoolullah!

 

As-Salaamu Alaiykum

-Omni

i agree!,,, i think

Haha, perhaps :P

 

That is the Shahadah...it means "I testify there is no deity but Allah, and muhammad was a messanger for Allah."  It really is the cornerstone of the Islamic faith.

Happy Christmas~!

 

As-Salaamu Alaiykum,

-Omni

Witch : I have to agree with you.

 

Names of 21 Gods in the Old T. (Professor of Old T.)

I don't know what your intentions were here stardust, with your posting of that link on Islam, but i'll assume they were good.  I do, however have to take objection to this link.  It is protraying Islam in a negative view that is unjustified.  I don't mind people critizicing Islam, if they can back up with information, not twist the truth to suit them.  This is what I see her.  They put up sketchy arguements using out of context and purposefully misinterpreted excerpts from the Qur'an.

Omni

 

All of the links are just about whether or not there are other Gods I thought. Sorry, I didn't pay much attention to the article other than that the Koran also states there are other Gods. This is what I was posting about. I didn't mean to upset you. I also posted about 21 Gods in the Old T. because some people don't believe there really were other Gods or so it seems.

 

I just went and read the whole article. So sorry I didn't realize it was posted by  Ex Muslims so I deleted it. I didn't intend to offend you or anyone. I hope it did get deleted. My computer and html aren't compatible on the WC. Sometimes my screen on the WC looks differently than other people's....lol. Let me know it its deleted please!

 

Sorry again.....

 

 

 

 

SCHOMBERG, ONT. - A spokesman for the Wrigley Worm Cannery announced today that a second shift will be added immediately. He attributed the recent spike in demand for Wrigley products to Mr Rev John's enthusiastic opening of Wrigley products on the Wondercafe site. Asked if there were any plans to market the worms in a resealable package, the spokesman said, "No. It was always our founder's belief that once you opened a can of worms it should be very difficult to close again."

Anyhoo...

Seems to me that it would be very useful to have other gods. After all, the Lord God only said, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." So I could probably keep a couple behind or beside him. You know, let the Big Guy know that he is definitely Number One but keep a couple of utility infielder gods as role players.

If I ask the Lord God, "Please smite Terry Williams with hiccups just as he starts his presentation tomorrow," I know to my cost that He will reply with a lot of stuff about how Williams is also His child, and mine own inquities, and a bunch of other stuff that will just leave me feeling humbled and abased. But now if I just toss an amulet into the Sifton Bog, Thor will be on the case, glad of any work after centuries of drinking weak coffee at the Valhalla Employment Centre. At 10:15 tomorrow, everyone will be snickering at that slimy self-promoter Williams as he hiccups his way through his Powerpoint show. Hell, Thor will probably throw in some embarrassing flatulence just to pad out his resume.

In fact, if you really work down the list of gods, you might get some who are pretty desperate. I'd feel funny about asking the Lord God, "Please set me up with that hottie in Purchasing." And I don't have many oxen for burnt offerings to the more active gods. But now I can just say, "Hey Melcarth, cards on the table. You need the gig, I need the girl. I'm sensing a win-win here. I'm not allowed to worship you, but if you come through with the goods, I'll give you a shout out in my next blog posting."

And apparently this is all strictly orthodox. Woo-hoo!

mirari

 

I believe the CFIA just issued a Listeria recall notice on all Wrigley Worm Cannery products.  All WCers better check their pantries.

 

 

IT

 

Russ

Mirari

can i apply for the Job?, im only 9 lkms south of SCHOMBERG and i have great expetance with worms

 Wasn't it George Bernard Shaw who said something like, "I have trouble believing in God, but find it easy to believe in Satan!"  I'm just quoting off the top of my head!!!

 

I forgive you.  I know you didn't mean it.  It is deleted and I thank you.  You didn't offend me per se, the twisting of the Holy Qur'an by those people who once called themselves Muslims is what offended me, and I don't blame you for posting it to prove a point, although if one looks at it in depth the Qur'an doesn't advocate any other Gods.  There are other 'forces'  at work, but all stem originally from God, and non are worthy of worship, or even the title of a 'god', not even a minor one.

 

And I hate to seem like the stereotypical "I don't like it so censor it" Muslim, I'm just trying to help you :)  (Worked I guess since you noticed what it was I was pointing out).

 

Again, don't beat yourself about it, thank you for the thought you put into that apology, it means a lot.

 

As-Salaamu Alaiykum!!

-Omni

 The Bible talks about other gods (and goddesses) - one such god being Asherah - since they used Asherah poles - poles used to honour the Ugaritic mother goddess.

If you want to find all of the references in the Bible to Asherah and the Asherah pole visit www.biblegateway.com

The Bible also mentions the god Ba'al - which is a term that can be used to refer to a various assortment of gods.  Find all the references to Ba'al at the same website as previously mentioned!!!

 

Hello, I've just been referred to this thread. (Thanks for that, blackbelt.)  The Quran has a surprising paragraph re pagans:  "