Bump for the discussion points.

Books by Joyce Rupp has influenced my life greatly - I look forward to your discussion

Having read the book deeply and critical I end in frustration - nothing radical about it and it really, as I have said, warmed over sociology based on projection - Freud said it better.

A much more radical book that offers a really new paradigm is Brock and Parkers new book Saving Paradise ( beacon press) It will challenge liberals, projections and conservatives - it is brilliant.

Paradox you have done a great job in your discussions - but there is little in the book to recommend it (WWG that is)

More to your point John Cobb's Natural Theology saved my theological life and lead me to Whitehead - all of this directions changed worship and liturgy for me - have been revising liturgy out of this perspective since 1967 - Borg and others are a footnote - Crossan and Robinson and Mack were the NT writers that inform me and Borg is a great addition but a repeat of what was being said in seminary in the 60"s

I really like Borg and Crossan. Right now I am making my way though Fox. I find him really hard going but I find him really good though. There is another writer called Don Schmidt who has written some creation theology things ala Fox which are good as well. I also really liked Stealing Jesus by Bruce Bawer (How Fundamentalism Betrays Christianity). The thing that I most like about Borg though is that his books are full of foot notes so that you can go and get references to tons of other books. I have not had the chance to read Vospers' book yet. There was a time when I would have been very attracted by the notion of getting rid of God but I don't know if I am very attracted by that now. But then having not read the book I don't know if that is what she is saying so I guess I should read it LOL. Right now I am trying to make my way through Original Blessing and Heart of Christianity. E.

Re: your question as to whether or not the reading is affecting the way we are intereacting with our church: my Minister is very sensitive about the theological diversity in our church. He is really an amazing Minster. I don't know how he manages to do it but he seems to understand the religious life of his congregants so that at least part of each sermon speaks to each of us. The only thing that I could find fault in him for is that I like more of a contempory/gospel bent to my music and he is more of a traditionist. What I find is that the more that I read the more that I see the nuances in his sermons (he is a very wise man). The other thing about my Minister is if we sit down and talk I realize what a scholarly man he is and thus, it is a pleaure to do Christian Education with him. Hopefully I will be doing a class with him on Borg's Heart of Christianity in the fall and I expect to learn a great deal from him. E.

Hi paradox3: The writers and writings that have influenced me the most are, in the non-fiction category, the works by D.T. Suzuki, former Professor of Buddhist Philososphy at the Kyoto University, Japan. His writings on Zen Buddhism have led me to several mystical experiences, peaking in a mind-blowing mystical Peak Experience, which prompted me to return to the faith of my culture, childhood and youth: Christianity!

My favourite novelist is Hermann Hesse, and my favourite of his novels is "Siddhartha."

In it, Siddartha and his friend Govinda are dissatisfied with ordinary life, and go on a spiritual quest. After many trials and tribulations, they part, because Siddartha is looking for spiritual enlightenment while Govinda is looking for spiritual teachings. At the end of the book, Siddartha has found spiritual enlightenment, but Govinda has not yet found the perfect teachings, and is still looking for better spiritual teachings.

The moral of the story? I just pointed it out, and it too helped me to return to the religion of my culture because I realized that, at the level of spiritual (mystical) experience, all spirituality is the same, and all religions are after the same thing, and I might as well be active--on behalf of the Universal Cosmic Spirit--within the dear and familiar religion of my culture.

I regard myself as an interdenominational and interfaith Christian--a universally spiritual Christian, if you will :-)

Hi again, paradox3: I forgot to say whether this has raised any concerns about the worship practices of my church. Plenty! I can't even start to begin pointing them out, but every religion and congregation is in some kind of a rut.

As anyone who has ever been stuck in a rut knows, getting out of it is not easy. Steering out of it radically may not be effective, and can cause damage. The best way to get out of a rut is to steer out of it carefully, taking advantage of the terrain, and steering out of it when the rut has reached a particularly high point.

I"m trying to lay some high points along the ruts of our church :-)

Which books or writers have influenced your faith journey?

All the usually books.(see above) But Dorthee Solle was the most influential.

2. Has your reading raised any concerns for you about the worship service at your church?

Yeah but what surprises me that most is that when I read them they contradicted nothing I learned I as a teen and young adult,(1980s) in Church. (Althrough they add to my faith and give me a deeper understanding) Everything that Vosper says she did not know I knew when I was 16. I never had a minister who believed in BS.

I just do not understand why others attending the Churches I attended as a youth did not listen to what was being said in sermons, or did not have discussions with the ministers.I attended guest lectures by Kung when I was 19 and Mathew Fox when I was 25. Today I really like Cobbs and Whitehead.

I also asked alot of questions (I still do)

That is not to say i do not believe that there is a place for Vosper, in fact I believe she is preaching a faith that is very different then mine, but that is much closer to what I was taught then what is believed in most Churches, United and otherwise.

What I like about Vospers approach is that I believe her approach would be able to bring several of my friends who were brought up in the United Church back to a church. They were taught a lot of BS, and many believe that Christianity is evil.

Some of them were taught that as children that they were such bad people that Jesus had to be killed because they were so bad.

WHich makes no sense at all. For one humanity is good,( after all the world is essentially good) or that God demand perfections and even more important what kind of religion tells children that our God would send his son into a situation that would result in his crucifixion.

Maybe if my friends attended a Church like Vospers then when I brought them to my church they then might be able to hear the Jesus stories and discover a faith based on the life and resurrection of Jesus.. Instead they expect to be crucified by the other church members. (g)

So Christianity has been poisened for them.

Eileenrl:

Thanks for your post. I just went over to Joyce Rupp's website to take a peek...P3

Authors such as Ravi Zacharias, J.P. Moreland and Norman Geisler have influenced my faith in a big way. Ravi Zacharias in particular.

Hi Paradox - thanks for starting another great thread. You have a gift for this!

Burton Mack is the author who has most recently rocked my world, even though I have only read one of his books.......and I skimmed some of the chapters at that! One thing he has said - 'there are no messiahs" - I think is one of the most important ideas about religion and humanity I've ever encountered.

He says that humanity's collective learned helplessness in waiting for a messiah, a superhero, to come and save us from ourselves takes away our unique ability to be co-creators of a better and more just world.

He's one of the reasons I'm now exploring the Unitarian faith.

As far as WWG; I could certainly relate to all the disconnect she discussed in regards to language.....but her solution of getting rid of "God", as well as our language about God, left me cold.

Panentheism,

You wrote:

{ Paradox you have done a great job in your discussions - but there is little in the book to recommend it (WWG that is) }

Thanks for your support, Pan. I have many frustrations with WWG, but it certainly is sparking some worthwhile discussion! RevJamesMurray suggested to me on one of the threads that it is important for us to keep talking about "what kind of progressive church we want to be".

I am toying around with the idea of writing a series of articles about WWG for my church newsletter, and posting them as blogs here at the cafe. I am thinking to approach this task a chapter at a time. I have printed the chapter one thread in hard copy, and have been reviewing it with interest. I am using different coloured highlighters, which is great fun :)

I am not sure how many discussion point threads there will be. I started this one because the "disconnect" Gretta talks about seems to be a major thesis in her book, and I wanted to invite more comments about it.

Elisabeth: Thanks for your thoughtful posts.

You wrote:

{ Hopefully I will be doing a class with him on Borg's Heart of Christianity in the fall and I expect to learn a great deal from him. E. }

My minister did a series of sermons based on Borg's Heart of Christianity this spring, and followed each one up with a discussion group. It was amazing! I think you will enjoy the class with your minister.

We used Tim Scorer's discussion guide for the groups. Some of the exercises in the guide were better than others, but on the whole, it was a wonderful resource.

Arminius:

Thanks for your contribution to this thread.

I read Siddhartha in high school, but do not remember much about it. When I was a teenager, I loved Khalil Gibran's The Prophet, and I still go to it from time to time.

In my teenage years, I also read Robert G.Ingersoll's 44 Complete Lectures. It is a very old book, and I still have it around. It was my grandfather's book :)

I did not become an agnostic as a result of reading Ingersoll, but he certainly gave me permission to think critically about scripture and its interpretation.

Alex,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Your experience as a teen/ young adult in the United Church sounds quite similar to my own. I attended Sunday School, CGIT, and CGIT camp in the sixties. My faith has deepened more than it has shifted since those days, although I understand certain aspects of it a little differently now.

Others who grew up in the United Church during the same period talk about how much they have had to "unlearn" as adults. This always intrigues me.

Was there great variance from congregation to congregation, even back then? I expect that messages about faith from our families are also a factor.

In my own case, I was encouraged to learn about Christianity so that I could make an informed decision about whether or not to accept it.

Your comments about friends who have had Christianity "poisoned" for them were interesting. Have you ever suggested Unitarianism as an option they could consider?

Hi Diana - It is good to see you again.

Maybe I should have called this thread "Authors who rocked my world" :)

The discussion has been brief but worthwhile. Thanks to all who have responded to my opening post...P3

paradox3: I very much agree with RevJames that it is very important to keep talking about what kind of church we want to be.

Well, let's keep talking.