InTheChurch, meet Arminius.  Arminius, InTheChurch.

ITC, I hope you're prepared for this...

 Sorry, ITC, I'm not prepared to pass it on without some basics like your real-time name and contact info., and the name of the institution at which you're doing the D.Min work.

Are the stories going to be anonymous, or credited? Will they be used in any other forum than your thesis?

This kind of information would be very helpful before I would suggest sending data to anyone.

Christ's peace - rb 

I am prepared to share this info with people and to answer questions off-forum if they want to send me an email.

If you would WonderMail that information to me, I would be more than happy to pass your request on to people who might be interested in sharing their stories.

Christ's peace - rb

Why is this topic appearing in 3 forums???

I have spotted it in R and F, Church Life and Popular Culture.

Yes, I thought there was no more cross posting

Then please flag in paradox. Admin has been shutting down threads that appear in more than one area-and just leaving 1 open.

Under our guidleines it does say we won't post same thread across sections.

Hi ITC, welcome to WonderCafe!

I am the (in)famous Arminius to whom you were introduced by our die-hard atheist, chansen, a little earlier.

To me, the essential element of faith is spiritual experience. I'm into experiential spirituality, not doctrinal or dogmatic spirituality.

The ancient spiritual disciplines of Christianity as well as those of Sufism and some Far Eastern sects and religions are more conducive to spiritual experience because they emphasize experiential spirituality, whereas most organized Christian denominations insist that the essential element of faith is unquestioning doctrinal or dogmatic belief.

I do, of course, interpret my spiritual experiences. But these intepretations are metaphorical and/or speculative.

I read recently that in the 14th and the 18th century there was a shift from religious to spiritual

emphasis in England (and Europe) for a while...wish I could reference this or had more definite information...

As I am unorganized, I find that I do not fit well within organizations, religious or otherwise, that want to box life up into neatly wrapped packages for consumption - what can I say I'm a round peg kind a gal.

I don't fit with the Atheists because I can not accept that humans are the apex of creation.

I don't fit with the Monotheists because, again, the personalization of God is for me limiting.

I don't fit with the Pagans because, well, I have danced naked under the moon and found a whole other reason for not liking pine trees

Robertson Davies summed up my philosophy best...

..... as an advocate of Ornamental Knowledge. ... I like the mind to be a dustbin of scraps of brilliant fabric, odd gems, worthless but fascinating curiosities, tinsel, quaint bits of carving, and a reasonable amount of healthy dirt. Shake the machine and it goes out of order; shake the dustbin and it adjusts itself beautifully to its new position.

So, I am an unorganized mess but it fits my spirit perfectly...

LB

Somewhere I have a chart showing how the church has tended to swing between Scholasticism and Pietism.  I modern term this tends to be the same as the swing between "religious" and "spiritual"

Hi LB: you are unorganized, not disorganized.

Religions are the sign posts on your spiritual journey. They are not your only sign posts, but they are there if it works for you.

I think you are limiting "spiritual journey" to things closely attached to the church.

It is more likely that when people leave organized religion they move quite a distance away, especially in their beliefs.

My beliefs are an example. I still attend church on occasions but I believe very little of what is in the Bible. Instead I am a great fan of multiple lives - reincarnation. My main book of guidance is "A Course In Miracles".  To me, Jesus was a great teacher, not someone who died to save the world.

P.S. - I hadn't a clue what "Lectio Divina" was until I Googled it 2 minutes ago.

I prefer to think of myself as an evolving spirit in a devolving host

LB

The aging process has you firmly in its grasp if you never get the urge to throw a snowball.

     Doug Larson

You just gave me the laugh of the morning!

Is Kermit, InTheChurch finding the replies helpful so far?

What are you saying about our Mother Earth, Gaia?  This is blasphemy!

Me too! I laughed so hard, I dropped my snow ball!

Pleasent Christamas, youngster...give my best to your wife...i

Arminius, Neo and Happy Genius, welcome to the Church of the Snowball...

Why is it phrased as either/or?   In our church many of the practices you mention are carried out in addition to Sunday worship.   We even have monasteries we can visit for retreats..   Once a week, people meet to say the Jesus Prayer (not exactly meditation, but a form of Eastern Christian mysticism).   Fasting at Lent and for six weeks before Christmas.

(Walking the Labyrinth--I have not heard of that one.)

I think Protestants have lost much of this (p.s. I am a former Protestant).  

Count me in!

Only in hell does the snowball not stand a snowball's chance in hell, everywhere else it is most powerful. Especially in Canada, eh?

That's right Arminius, the flakes of the Church of Snowball have no opportunities in hell, and each member is totally unique!

I agree that when people are disenchanted with the Church they tend to - as Jamesk notes earlier in this thread - "move quite a distance away". What I am researching, though, is whether the ancient spiritual practices (disciplines) of the Church can offer these particular folk a doorway to spiritual journey and experience. I'd love to hear from people (either on WC or privately by email) about their thoughts and/or exoperiences with this idea.

EasternOrthodox, you are right... this does not to be an either/or... but I find from both observation and experience that many people make this split themselves.  I admire those who can make regular worship and practice of the disciplines a symbiotic relationship. Unfortunately, many do not. Many have thrown out one with the other. As you state,  "Protestants have lost much of this", as have (I believe) a lot of Roman Catholics as well.  As a member of the clergy, I am committed to church worship, but I am as strongly committed to helping people find an entry (reentry?) point to a spiritual path that is helpful to them. This is the point of my DMin research: can the ancient spiritual practices be that entry-point?  Will people who don't want "church" be open to the spirituial disciplines as their doorway to spiritual growth?

Also, you commented on "walking the labyrinth": Walking the labyrinth is perhaps more of a Western (originally Eurpoean) Christian practice from early medieval times (if not before). There are many websites that introduce one to this wonderful reflective and meditative practice. Check out http://labyrinthsociety.org/   (Ihave no vested interest in or affiliation to this organization).

Yes, LB, each flake of the Church Of The Snowball is totally unique. Once we accept each other's flakiness as an artistic quality, then we qualify for membership in our unorganized (not disorganized :-) Church, eh?

The Church Of The Snowball. {As we say in Facebook, Neo likes this}

Well, not being a member of the church, I can't really say whether the ancient practices help to draw people into the church, but I know that for myself, I prefer to make it up just for me, in an ecclectic fashion, than to just follow what someone else sais. It's all about self discovery and the self discovering the world. I make my own spirituality. For me there are no limits to what I might considder as usefull to my greater appreciation of existance.

I have found great fullfillment in ancient practices, though not christian ones, such as: runes, praying to the mother Earth, and Nature, herbal magic:charms, amulets, incense, essential oils, teas and such, dying with plants for colour and meaning, personifying the elements, poetry, silent reflection, wild food gathering, personal dress, and I have also fasted for cleansing using a Buddhist recipe for honey water. I have looked to ancient Sumer, Egypt, Germany, Scandinavia, England, north and south America, Japan and even christianity for useful and meaningful bits of thought. I am interested in what is special to people.

I would stay away from church though, as it tends, I believe, to be less a place of personal discovery and openness, than a place of a prescribed doctrine with a set outcome of belief as it's goal. That's not including the Unitarian Universalist church. People must be free, in my opinion, to use everything available to them to make up their own mind.

Thanks, Elanorgold.  Glad to hear that you are finding avenues of spiritual practice that meet your needs.  This is exactly what I'm hoping to hear from people... their experiences in non-traditional spiritual journey. 

While the ancient practices that I am focussing on happen to be from the Christian tradition, I don't necessarily see promoting them as a tool to "get people to go to church", rather as a means for people to find spiritual fulfilment. The Church can, I believe, assist people in this journey without expecting or demanding that they become active in more traditional Church activities. 

Any thoughts from others?

Some of those 'ancient' Christian practises are, or used to be, part of the practises of other religions.  Christians meditated once (some still do) Buddhists still do - and some people 'doing there own thing' find meditation to be valuable to there developing spiritual life.

If I knew a congregation that took meditation seriously it would tempt me to at least check it out.  There doesn't seem to be such a thing around here. 

If I knew a congregation that were serious about serving the needs of the poor, underpriviliged, sick and bereaved I would be tempted to seek them out.

I just try to do the best I can do pretty much alone.  Some friends share some of my hopes and efforts. 

Yes, many faiths have these ancient disciplines as a part of their practice.  I guess that is why they continue to have an impact on the faith journey of so many people.

In response to kaythecurler:  there are many churches all across our country that take very seriously their call to care for the poor and disadvantaged, the sick and the lonely.   If you want to contact me off-line then I would be glad to give you the names of congregations that are caring for others. I find that there is great strength to be found in being part of a wider community that shares ones vision and concerns.

Also, it has come to my attention that there have been some bad experiences lately on WonderCafe with people using "puppets" as their avatar and/or seeking personal stories under false pretenses. I assure you that I am not one of them.  Why is Kermit my face on WonderCafe? I have loved the Muppets since I was a kid (a long time ago!), I have used puppets regularly in my congregational ministry over the years, and generally I find puppets carefree.  I just want to assure everyone that I am who I say that I am and am really doing D.Min. work in the area of spirituality and faith formation.  Thanks to those of you who mentioned this to me.  

Hi ITC:

Organized religion is on the decline. The majority of people who describe themselves as "spiritual" are also self-described "spiritual but not religious," which means they are not affiliated with any of the organized religions.

One can be spiritual and practice spiritual practices such as contemplation, meditation, or any of a large number of meditative or contemplative exercises, without belonging to an organized church.

If the universe is regarded as a unitive whole, and the "spirit" in "spirituality" is the unitive state of the universe, then any activity that fosters the unitive spirit, or is based on the unitive state, would be a spiritual activity, even science. More and more scientists acknowledge that reality is in an ultimate state of nonduality, oneness, unity or synthesis, and that that which they analyze ultimately is the spiritual universe (if "spiritual" is defined as "unitive") Then even the pursuit of science would be be a spiritual pursuit.

Once both the secular segment of society and science define "spirtuality" as "the ultimate unitive state of the universe," then humanity will enter a spiritual or post-denominational age, and traditional religion will become obsolete. 

Inthechurch - please note that I didn't say NO churches took care of the sick, poor etc.  Just that I didn't know one that was doing this locally.  Thanks for your offer give me the names of some of them - but No Thanks - it would use up your time and not help me one bit.

I have been posting at WC for quite some time -  I don't play sock puppet games.  I didn't suggest that you were.

InTheChurch, can I call you Kermie? Have you seen these videos? I just love them, especially this one posted in another thread. (In reference to what Arminius is saying.)

[deGrasse Tyson]
We are all connected;
To each other, biologically
To the earth, chemically
To the rest of the universe atomically

[Feynman]
I think nature's imagination
Is so much greater than man's
She's never going to let us relax

[Sagan]
We live in an in-between universe
Where things change all right
But according to patterns, rules,
Or as we call them, laws of nature

[Nye]
I'm this guy standing on a planet
Really I'm just a speck
Compared with a star, the planet is just another speck
To think about all of this
To think about the vast emptiness of space
There's billions and billions of stars
Billions and billions of specks

[Sagan]
The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it
But the way those atoms are put together
The cosmos is also within us
We're made of star stuff
We are a way for the cosmos to know itself

Across the sea of space
The stars are other suns
We have traveled this way before
And there is much to be learned

I find it elevating and exhilarating
To discover that we live in a universe
Which permits the evolution of molecular machines
As intricate and subtle as we

[deGrasse Tyson]
I know that the molecules in my body are traceable
To phenomena in the cosmos
That makes me want to grab people in the street
And say, have you heard this??

(Richard Feynman on hand drums and chanting)

[Feynman]
There's this tremendous mess
Of waves all over in space
Which is the light bouncing around the room
And going from one thing to the other

And it's all really there
But you gotta stop and think about it
About the complexity to really get the pleasure
And it's all really there
The inconceivable nature of nature

That's neet that you use puppets in your ministry, sounds amusing and original! : )

Kay: It was I who told him about Sock Puppets. He's just wanting to be clear.

I actually have given up many of those pagany paths though. It was part of my path. Now I'm more into spirituality through science. ; )

A lot of the comments here seem to have drifted a little off-topic.

I can list the things I like about Orthodoxy that are not part of a UC service or UC general practise  (note that I am a former Protestant).

I do realize these are by no means to everyone's taste and am not suggesting that there is anything wrong with someone disliking all these things for whatever reason.

-Lighting candles for specific people (including the dead)

-Praying for the dead

-Flickering oil lamps in front of the icons

-Incense wafting through the sanctuary

-Having much of the service sung or chanted rather than spoken

-Wearing a head scarf in the sanctuary (if I was a Muslim woman, I just know I would be into hijab).   This is how Mary is pictured in her icon (always prominently located on the left hand side of the iconostasis, Jesus is on the right).  Most women don't wear one but I like wearing it.

-the part of the service where the priest blesses the children, one by one, making the sign of the cross over each one

-crossing oneself, usually done whenever someone says "Father, Son and Holy Spirit) but can also be done anytime.

-the metanya (you bend over and your right hand sweeps the floor, sort of like the Catholic genuflect I think).

-touching the vestments of the priests as they process around the sanctuary (twice per service, there are no pews in our church, just a large open space where people can move around during the service).   I know some Protestants really find this retrograde. 

-venerating icons and the cross by kissing them

-weekly communion (with real wine and real bread)

-confession (usually after Saturday Vespers)

-being able to request a Panachita anytime (for the dead, a short excerpt from the funeral service).  Often held at 40 days after death, then one year but can be anytime.

-saying the Jesus prayer (which you can do anytime, some people using prayer rope with knots on it to track the number of times they say it)

-Kiss of peace that acutally involves hugs and kisses

-Having an icon corner at home (should on a wall facing east), you can use candles and incense as desired--one can pray before the icons (or pray any other way for that matter)

Whaaaat!!??

You are calling us a bunch of flakes? Why, I'll have you know....

Uh...

You're prob'ly right.

I have done some spiritual walking and some labyrinth walks and found them very soothing and very spiritual. But for them to be of value to those still within a church they have to be built into the general beliefs and teachings of the church. I believe that people are leaving en-mass because they don't see religion as meaningful or relevant to their normal life. If you can explain to people that they can explore their own spirituality and still connect that to what is taught on Sunday, it sounds good.

Hi Elanorgold:

It sounds odd to regard the pursuit scientific truth as a spiritual discipline, but it is, to you, to me, and to more and more people.

I think scientific enlightenment will pave the way for spiritual enlightenment; we humans will eventually evolve a spiritual human culture through scientific enlightenment.

To me, intellectual and spiritual enlightenment are inseparable: intellectual evolution is spiritual evolution is evolution of consciousness. Most excitingly, we are, or can be, co-evolutionaries in this process. We are not just being evolved by forces beyond our control—we are evolving ourselves: evolver=evolved.

Well, I'm culturally biased. In German, the noun for both spirit and intellect is "Geist."

kaythecurler... sorry if it sounded like I was suggesting that you in particular  questioned my identity or intentions.  What I was trying to respond to (and I guess that I didn't word it well) was a couple of people who had contacted me off-line and let me know about some bad experiences on WC with certain posters recently.  Sorry again if this is how it came across.

Elanorgold, thanks for the video.  Interesting stuff.  I particularly liked Sagan's comment:

The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it
But the way those atoms are put together

I guess what would be ideal is if those who deepen their personal spiritual life could bring that depth and strength as meaningful change within the Church. As people "leave" the church we lose their uniqueness.  I understand fully why people seek spiritual journey outside organized religion, but I'm also sad when they disappear from our congregational midst. There are still many of us (clergy) who hope for growth of faith over adherence to doctrine.

InTheChurch - I'm not sure you needed to apologise - but thanks anyway.  I was just trying to keep the communication straight.

I agree it would be great if all spiritual journeys were accepted within the church.   However, they aren't (in my experience anyhow).  Not only that - some congregations act as if you are 'unworthy' to offer any of your abilities unless you have been a member for at least thirty years. 

The UC congregation I attended for a while had no interest in spiritual journeys - they were there for social reasons, and for the feelings they got about being 'good' church members.  No interest in change, no interest in learning more, no interest in new paths such as meditation, labyrinth walking, no interest in discussing what they'd read, tried or were curious about. 

Arminius has presented services at his UC church. I am impressed by that. The Unitarian Universalist church is also all for multitudinous faith paths to a common goal of spiritual fullfillment. Glad you liked the video. : )

Arminius, I'm in for the spirited intellect! : )

 I just came from an 8 hour retreat, preceded by Sunday worship.  The service was more contemplative than is typical, with plenty of extended silences to reflect, pray or simply rest in God.   Then we shared a simple lunch of soup and bread.  We participated, if we chose, in centering prayer, lectio divina, guided imagery, labyrinth walking, mendalla drawing, prayer writing,  justice letter writing, reading and watching a Richard Rohr video.  The retreat was organized and led by laypeople.

Those who participated are all regular Sunday attenders, but we are also involved in small groups for various spiritual practices throughout the week.

I personally find that these spiritual practices open me to experience God in my life.  Unfortunately, worship rarely seems to do the same.  Worship is very "in the head", and very often the words of the hymns and especially the psalms conflict with what is in MY head, and I sometimes leave feeling frustrated with the inconsistency of the images and vocab. used in the sermon, prayers, hymns, etc.    However, I believe that the spiritual journey is only really authentically undertaken in community - we can do spiritual practices all we like, but it is  when confronted by the challenges of being in community with other people that we mature and grow - and draw on those spiritual practices to sustain and nurture us.

Hi Elanorgold:

Yeah, spirited intellect: that's the ticket to heaven!

I also find community worship to be the best--for me anyway.   (There are those old stories of men and women on mountain-tops or on poles, but it would not be for me).    Like Diana, I agree that merely interacting with your co-worshippers is rewarding and very much helps you grow.

Could it be a problem in the study and question that leads to an either/or in the way the issue is raised - a prolbem embedded in the study and thus questionable as a study?

Maybe if church was more of a discussion place, it would be more of a place to grow.