Elanorgold
Our Perceived Self and our Actual Self
Posted on: 01/24/2011 20:12
When I look in the mirror, I see something I call me, but it isn't what everyone else sees, they see me reversed, the other way around, the right way around, I see myself back to front. Then there's different photos of me, some so different you wouldn't know it was the same person, so which one is me? Then there's different ages, then there's the self we project. Is it the same as what is received about us? Am I what you think I am, or what I think I am? Is one more real than the other? Am I a spirit in cyberspace? I'm talking about the difference between reality and perceived reality...
What I think is mutable. I have a certain ammout of control over what I think, and how I feel. Which one is true? The controlled thought, or the uncontrolled thought? Do I choose between realities? Steering my own boat through the experience of existance... Are these like parrallel universes? Or by choosing at all, am I keeping it all together, or the universes separate how it should be?
I tend to agree with the idea that every possibility really does exist as we plot a cource forwards through time-space. Maybe I can glance over at a parallel me...
Perhaps this is all just a bunch of inane babbling... Or is it?
Comments
MikePaterson
Posted on: 01/24/2011 21:51
About "self"... it's interconnected with "truth"...
nosretap-ekim.blogspot.com/2011/01/looking-for-truth.html
... and I can't think of briefer ways to describe my encounter with the questions you raise..
Elanorgold
Posted on: 01/24/2011 23:06
Paraphrasing MikePaterson:
"Our own being is our entire universe because we exist only to the extent that we allow ourselves to. To fully exist, we need to discover and explore of our own existential truth…
There’s no one single truth statement: even if its essence was reducible to one single little word, where would you find two “selfs” who’d understand it the same way? Truth is a river, a flow… a dynamic that resolves, not in one time or place, but everywhere, at all times and forever. It is both closer and further away than our “good sense” allows.
We find “our” truth in the gap that lies between who we are and what we experience. We are engaged, like it or not, in an exchange of life for experience. That process of exchange is the “eternal” truth. That’s the deal. And, ultimately, we do it alone.
And, no matter how much we share or how deeply, our real worlds remain uniquely our own. None of us comes to be fully known by another person.."
Hmmm...
RussP
Posted on: 01/24/2011 23:41
"Our own being is our entire universe"
It could also be said that this is true as only within ourselves, do we truly know what exists. All else is provided to us through our senses and we really can't confirm, nor deny, that what they are feeding us is the truth. So our being really is our universe.
IT
Russ
Neo
Posted on: 01/25/2011 00:36
Paraphrasing MikePaterson:
"Our own being is our entire universe because we exist only to the extent that we allow ourselves to. To fully exist, we need to discover and explore of our own existential truth…
There’s no one single truth statement: even if its essence was reducible to one single little word, where would you find two “selfs” who’d understand it the same way? Truth is a river, a flow… a dynamic that resolves, not in one time or place, but everywhere, at all times and forever. It is both closer and further away than our “good sense” allows.
We find “our” truth in the gap that lies between who we are and what we experience. We are engaged, like it or not, in an exchange of life for experience. That process of exchange is the “eternal” truth. That’s the deal. And, ultimately, we do it alone.
And, no matter how much we share or how deeply, our real worlds remain uniquely our own. None of us comes to be fully known by another person.."
Hmmm...
Hmmmm... is a good response. You join the company of many a philosopher who have pondered and mused on this subject.
Read what this psychologist wrote on this subject in 1928:
The introspectionist turns his attention inwardly; remembers, compares mentally, derives data from self-communion, asks others to do the same; the behaviorist theoretically treats the human animal the same as he would any lower form of life, and observes merely the overt and objective responses the animal makes in much the same manner as would be used by the physicist or chemist in observing the reactions of bodies or compounds in their laboratories. Furthermore, the subjective school is apt to be ultra-rational and systematic; the behavioristic more empirical and pragmatic...
The mentalists insist that psychical activity is not the mere reflection of physical activity; that over and above the body and the brain there is something different, on a different level, call it mind, spirit, consciousness, what you will. Thought is not the functioning of matter. The materialists on the other hand, while differing among themselves, would hold just the reverse, namely, that all is physical, and that all human conduct, be it thinking, feeling, emotions, muscle activity or nerve activity, is all the functioning of physical, material cells, and that without such structure there can be no activity at all. Whatever acts is physical, however it acts. On the one hand we have an informing power or spirit using the structure of the physical body; on the other we have structure as the basis, solely and indispensably, of function, however complex, however delicate, however noble that functioning may be in terms of morals or religion.
- Leary, Daniel B., Ph.D., Modern Psychology: Normal and Abnormal, pp. 6-7.
Serena
Posted on: 01/25/2011 01:55
I was at a spiritual awakening group tonight.
We talked about this:
Our small self is the only self that we know. We only see ourselves in three dimensions. Our larger self is always happy and our smaller self lies to us about our limitations.
There are people who see their own imperfections in us. There are people who say nasty things to us that our small self belives (from Dr. Phil)
You choose and create your own realities. If you believe you are worthless then you are worthless. You are what you think you are. It is irrelevant what others think unless you choose to believe them.
MikePaterson
Posted on: 01/25/2011 08:17
Finding your "self" is what opens the universe to you.
unsafe
Posted on: 01/25/2011 08:56
MikePeterson Your Quote :Finding your "self" is what opens the universe to you.
I agree
to that
waterfall
Posted on: 01/25/2011 09:31
I do on occasion indulge in the "internal bubblebath" of speculation and self indulgence and imagine my bellybutton as the epicentre of the universe, but inevitably someone comes along and wants to use the bathroom and eventually I have to get out of my warm bath and dry myself off, put on my clothes and walk amongst mere mortals.
It becomes our choice whether our insights become profound barriers to separate us or if we use them to achieve connection.
MikePaterson
Posted on: 01/25/2011 09:54
There's are worlds of difference between self indulgence and self discovery. You bellybutton is never the centre of your universe or anyone else's; and there is no way of separating self from the universe... but there are ways to become aware of hints, at least, of the depth of of the connections. They involve a good bit of critical self examination, something we do all sorts of things to avoid (including warm baths).
waterfall
Posted on: 01/25/2011 10:06
Mike you're intruding on my profound insights, LOL!
Elanorgold
Posted on: 01/25/2011 12:03
Hmmm, maybe my question is more one for theoretical physics... but psychology seems close. I think maybe I am (and we all are) all of the above...what we think we are and what others think we are. Every picture of me is a moment in my continuum, moments far too multitudinous to have a snapshot of all of them, and thus I am unable to see the whole picture, also because I can't see what others see of me. I am a multitude.
According to Leary though, I am an introspectionist.
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 01/26/2011 09:05
Interesting to see the incidental collision of theology, physics and philosophy!
The I was told philosophy was evil in church as a youngster, and drove me out of it. Then they also said I wouldn't amount to anything having come from a busted family ... suite GeZeus ... when I say things to confuse them ... what did thet expect after making statements like that ... I have a reputation to live up to as a senseless, no-nothing ... can't care can't think ... not supposed to the role models tells us ... and Hoos the most impressive ideals ... the emotional ones?
The daemon called the mind is undercurrent .. working slowly on the foundations and the emotional sorts are too busy emote'n to see IT coming ... sociatal collapse? The hoo will carry out the hunny pot that supports the emotional as's?
There simply must be another side to this story. Now if neuroscientists are right and story=mind .. we should also encounter the other side of the mind when we get out of here ... the present emotional state! Could you believe that?
Arminius
Posted on: 01/26/2011 13:47
Every one of us is a unique outcome or a unqiue edition of the universe. Everyone experiences the same universe uniquely, and the same universe experiences ITself uniquely in and through every one of us.
Uniqueness is, well, unique. No one knows exactly what their own uniqueness consists of; no one knows exactly what anyone else's uniqueness is like. We just assume that we are unique and experience our reality uniquely.
We assume that every one of us is born a unique being. Beyond that, we assume that everyone creates their own unique universe and their own unique individual self. We assume that our uniqueness, and that of our universe, is not fixed but subject to constant, creative change.
Thus, everyone lives in a unique experiential universe and creates and constantly re-creates their unique experiential reality. But everyone's universe is also the same as everyone else's, only that this same universe has the magical quality to be transformed by our creativeness. Our experiential reality is plastic. We shape and re-shape it at will.
Our brain is our cosmic sense organ through which we experience or perceive reality. It is not really our reality but our brain that is plastic—our plastic brain renders our experiential reality plastic! Through the plasticity of our brain does each of us perceive the universe and themselves uniquely. Subjectively and experientially, every one of us is a unique being living in a unique universe.
The big questions is: Does our subjective perception of reality influence the real, ontological or objective reality?
I think it does. Scientific research indicates that the observer, by the act of observing, influences the observation. The very act of observing influences that which is being observed; the very act of experiencing influences what is being expereinced; the very act of interpreting influences what is being interpreted. The link between subject and object is always some kind of action by which the subject influences the object, or, in a manner of speaking, creates the object:
observer⇔observing⇔observed;
creator⇔creating⇔created;
experiencer⇔experiencing⇔experienced;
contemplator⇔contemplating⇔contemplated;
etc.
What links object with subject is always some dynamic, creative, and transformative action which influences both object and subject.
A (any) pair of opposites, together with the dynamic, creative, transformative and transcendental power that links the two, and that unites as well as separates the two, is the real Holy Trinity, the key to cosmic creation.
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 01/27/2011 11:11
Six-fingered giants ARM ... Catesian co=ordinates of space ... residing place of light when not all bent out of shape in funny Eire Urs ... the powerful side of the brae'n ... emotives that must be spent as currency ... as spoken of by Jules Vernacular ... time machinations ... working with past, present and future as if you could contibute being outside the system. If you are in it you are overwhelmed by self ...
Sort of like an OBI or NDE heh ... expan sieve mote ... yoah gotta filter through a lot of eM (eM being an expression of root, mena square) a nerd or nard, old Hebrew expression for Fat-heh ... like nigh buddha in the Roman realm where alien thoughts are not welcome ... the buddy is referred to as Pal ess Tyon ... ancient expression over strained connections ... they'll learn ...
Did you know elastic materials are considered to have memory in materials science studies. Consider the poeR fibre of the Brae'n ill' exorcised ... not out much ... except in odd creative words rejected on the emotional side of institution ... some with flaws ... like Murphy ... the only way to learn ... failure. Do empires fall?
Suite IEZus where do they fall to ... when the feather touch is spent? It is said in the san's I Carious ... Gehennas collapse---chicane little!
Elanorgold
Posted on: 01/27/2011 16:03
Good stuff Arminius. Often when I look at my stopwatch, it seems to take 2.5 seconds to advance 1 second. I've counted! ANd I have begun a research project of the effect of mood on chance. I was waiting to collect more data, then I plan to post it here. I have to wait for extremes of mood to do the experiments. Very happy, and pretty darn miserable.
If you have any study names or links on the effect of the mind on reality, I'd be interested to check that out.
It feels right to me that the fabric of reality is a strange and unimaginable thing, that is always in flux. Each of us a singularity, unique within it, or even containing it. 11, 12 dimentions all curled in on themselves. Too weird to be straight forward. It seems to me as well, that we too are equally weird!