SD: These are a lot of questions within this one question which could each be greatly expanded upon. Maybe try to break it down into more particular questions. Which specific issue here is of particular interest to you which you would like to discuss? For example, does God exist? How could a loving God allow suffering? Do atheists believe in miracles?

BTW I wouldn't worry about adding the "I'm not trying to offend" disclaimer to the end of your questions because we see you are asking probing questions for the sake of dialogue of people with differing views - and this is a safe place to do it.

Shadow, you pose an excellent question. My particular response, from a "United Church of Canada - ISH" angle, is that the problem lies in the premise of your subject line: Puppetmaster. That's the thing. I don't believe that God is any sort of "puppetmaster" or that God is "omnipotent" - up there in the air somewhere doling out blessings and curses...seemingly at random. I believe that God is powerful, but not all-powerful. Otherwise, how could God be all-loving?

I think that God actually moves and changes and grows and learns or evolves. As does everything else. Therefore, God is not so much in control of the process as God IS the process itself. ( I could go on and on, so I'll try to wrap up and be brief). God does not cause suffering. But God is with us in our pain and suffering, comforting us, and calling not only us but the whole universe to the best possible future. This is God's constant calling to us.

In what way would his being all-powerful take away from his being all-loving?

Personally, I don't think that God is all-loving. I believe there are things God most certainly does not love. Can we reasonably argue that God loves sin?

Frog, that's a "have you stopped beating your wife yet" question. The God I know in Jesus Christ IS love. S/he can do nothing but love, and is in fact the essence of love itself. This God would not cause suffering, for any reason and therefore is not the author of evil. This negates the "all-powerful" argument.

"God is love" is grammatically different from "God loves", or "God loves such-and-such". God is not taking action in the sentence "God is love". Therefore "does God love sin" is an irrelevant question. An omni-loving God is a God who IS love. Therefore it is not necessary to say God loves everything (including sin).

Shadow:

• I don't think heaven is a place per se so I'll say if I get to outer space where the spirits  dwell I'll come back and let you know !
•  
• There's lots of fuzzy  fudgy answers  about why we suffer but I don't think anyone really knows; its a guess. I suppose if we didn't grow old, suffer and die we'd live forever and that's not in the cards. I don't know why some are healed but most are not. Healing of major diseases is quite rare I think. Its a mystery. There may be a person who takes excellent care of their health but yet gets sick and dies young, while some old man high on whiskey for his life and could care less about anything  lives to be 70-80. There's no rhyme or reason to it. Whatever....they (whoever they is..lol..) say we don't learn very much about life except through suffering so there's a purpose in it for the afterlife. They say too that God heals people if the healing is used to give him/she/it the glory.
•  
• My beliefs are all over the place. I entertain the idea of reincarnation and karma. Its quite different from the strictly Christian beliefs  although there was a time when Christians believed in it  and I believe most Jews (the roots of Christianity) still do. I also read a fair amount of New Age which holds similiar beliefs.
•  
• It basically says that we die and we may (or may not...it depends)  return to earth again in a different body (maybe different sex too). We go round on what they call the wheel until we learn how to love perfectly. It could be 1000's of years. A certain soul may choose to be born as a cripple for some reason or other, and a young child  who dies young may have chosen to come to earth to complete some mission and only  planned to stay a short while. I could go on and on like Lovejoy says but its too complicated and I'd be writing till xmas time.
•  
• After death we see our whole lives laid out before us and we are able to judge ourselves; see the wrongs we have done and how we have failed to love others. Its all about love and being non judgmental towards people.
•  
• In plain English its "what goes around comes around" or as we have treated others we will get the same back.  Karma.  Re evil and suffering I suppose if we never knew it we'd also never know what good or health is either. God isn't evil and he doesn't send us suffering. We are physical bodies after all subject to sickness. A person's own will may have a lot to do with being healed because we have free will to choose our thoughts. Its very wrong to say so-and-so didn't have enough faith in God to be healed. That's horrible and damaging.

• Sorry for the mish mash of thoughts. Hope you can follow me a little bit....

P.S. I'm not here to argue about the belief in reincarnation or anyone else's beliefs. I hold lots of  various beliefs. I'm more inclined towards  live and let live  and lets all get along and respect each other's beliefs. I like to put in my 7 cents worth....I won't argue with anyone.

My philosophy professor gave us an argument for why god cannot be omnipotent, omnipresent and omnibenevolent all at once:

First of all, let's assume that god is all three of these things. Now, we know that evil exists but when evil acts happen, god should know about it every time because it is omnipresent. God should be able to stop it every time because it is omnipotent. God should want to stop it every time because it is omnibenevolent. However, god does not stop evil from happening. Evil happens all the time so either god can't tell when evil happens or god doesn't have the power to stop evil from happening or god doesn't care about evil happening.

ShadowDweller,

I don't believe that god exists partially because there is suffering in the world. Alone, this is a very weak reason to not believe in god (because the argument I just presented is compatible with the existence of a god along with the existence of suffering) but accompanied with other reasons, like that we can't objectively experience god and that there is no universal consensus about god and that prayer doesn't do anything and that the universe favours chaos according to the laws of thermodynamics, it becomes much more reasonable.

Well I'm with LoveJoy, I believe that God is Love.  That within each and everyone of us we have the capacity to be like God and Love - but we don't, hence the suffering and the pain.

It is not God that inflicts human suffering, it is humans and humans have the power to stop it but we don't.  We'd rather abdicate our responsibilities onto others - even God.

LB

If the Almighty himself played the violin, the credits would still read 'Rubinstein, God, and Piatigorsky', in that order.     Jascha Heifetz

That argument could easily be used against us as well though. Replace God with we and we get a totally different picture. Evil happens all the time so either we can't tell when evil happens or we don't have the power to stop evil from happening or we don't care about evil happening. I realize these are blanket satements but they do raise interesting points.

I am once again reminded of a cartoon in which two turtles are talking. One turtle says, "I wish God would do something about all the suffering and pain that is in the world." The other turtle replies, "I'm affraid God will ask me the same question."

Just because we may be apathetic, doesn't mean that God is to blame. I believe God has given us the tools, perhaps it is us that need to get off our collective asses and do something.

Consumingfire, 

Thanks for the story about the turtles.  I love it!!!

 Your welcome paradox3. It's a great cartoon.  Short, but has a powerful message.

God is love and we as humans have the free will to make all our discisions. Many choices we make are wrong.Does that say that God doesn't love us? I don't think so.

God IS love. But Just because 'God so loves the world' doesn't mean that all people will believe him. As you said, people have, at least to an extent, free will. Do you think then that God will 'make' those who do not want him (ie. KillerRabbit) spend eternity with him? I think not.

Hello shadow........God bless you.....

I believe that God is love first of all.......God so loved the world....that He "gave"....the first commandment states Love the Lord with all your heart, all your strength , all your mind and all your soul......and then love your neighbour as you want to be loved.....

These sum up the Law of the Love of God....all powerful...I believe yes on this one.....look out into the intelligent design of the Universe/Cosmos.......of course He would haved to be all powerful ...to keep order ..........in all things....the bible is full of such loving scriptures....

Evil goes back to the very beginning ...if you explore the bible it will tell you of the Love God had for Lucifer.....and how lucifer wanted to be worshipped like God so He chose to go against God and become one in himself.....thus evil.......there is God there is evil....but sin had a lot to do with suffering and sickness in this world....although some diseases are genetic...a lot of them can come from the enviroment ....God helps us to defeat evil in our lives and provides a written guide on how to do that in our lives....but it takes faith without a doubt to believe in God...the bible tells us it is not flesh and blood we fight ......prayer is one way of fighting prayer, others include ....the Authority of Jesus's name....the Blood He sacrificed on the Cross...the angels who give us protection and minister to us as they carry the will of God....Jesus died on the Cross and condemed death so we dont have to fear it any longer.....

I know these work because I apply them to my life.....many many prayers I have seen answered....I have seen the ministering and the protection angels provide (see Open Table, my 1st angel encounter)...I have seen healings....I have seen miracles.....in the last couple of years I have seen two brother-in-laws live after car accidents where there was nothing left of the cars and they walked away without a scratch....I praise the Lord for the blood that I have applied over my family.....I myself have been healed of luekemia , pinched nerves...fear of death and fear of the past......I have seen God deliver His gift of salvation on family members who were atheistist before they accepted God into their lives.....I have seen marriages healed...relationships restored....I have seen loved ones pass over to the other side in complete faith and peace.....Praise the Lord.....

God does not like suffering anymore then we do.....but when we choose to live a life without God our sufferings can be so devastating......Gods  healings take place all over the world....He blesses doctors, nurses, pastors, preachers...servants in all areas of life...that help to stop the suffering the enemy and sin puts into our lives....technolgy has happened in leaps and bounds all of these are guided by God through Jesus and the Holy Spirit.....doctors can now stop peoples hearts and then bring them back to life healed....Awesome God we serve...

I believe we seemed to see more evil then we do Gods wondersous things....tv...reporters etc...dont show half as much good as they do bad....when God comes into our lives He starts there.....He teaches one of us His ways and principals and then we in love start within our own circles and it just grows from there.....I am sure if we heard all the stories that the Reverends, Pastors, Ministers, Priests, Judges, Leaders and all of Gods servants ...it would surely change peoples minds about suffering in this world.....we dont hear much of these stories....but in the churches....healings and miracles are taking place all the time...counselling from Gods servants heal marriages, restores families....heals suffering.....when we attend church we can see these things being revealed...

With free will we can choose to not believe in God (the enemies doing ) or we can search and seek God out and I will guarantee you will see the movement of the Holy Spirit and God turning suffering into good....the more you seek the more you see.....Praise the Lord God.....

IJL:bg

consumingfire: Awesome turtle story!  Follow the example of Jesus - support parables!

One thing that does interest me, though... why turtles, I wonder?

Geo: The question is, where would he go, then?

Then again, I can imagine KillerRabbit and the devil rocking out together on Guitar Hero or something 

Anyhoo, if God IS love, that solves a lot of the problems with omnipotence and such.  We all know what love is.  So... is love omnipotent?  Once that's the question it all makes a lot more sense.  An idea like 'God does not cause our suffering but is with us in it and comforts us' which seems really silly when you're thinking about a big guy in the sky sounds exactly like what love does.

I wouldn't use the term 'omnipotent' in describing God/love so much as 'omnipotential' (a cool term I just coined) or, if I wanted to sound like Terry Pratchett, 'omnipotent, for a given value of omnipotent'.  God's power has infinite potential; it is relative to our free will, and to how open we are to it.

Then again, even that is only really one aspect of God.  It's the one aspect, in my opinion, that can comfort us, and that we can really judge as good or evil.  We seem to be talking about the Christ-consciousness here.  Then there's the Father and the Holy Spirit - the world itself or life-matrix and the Unconditioned Absolute beyond it.  At the moment I can't tell really which is which.

After all, the Holy Spirit as she is traditionally defined is an inspiring force of consciousness, not something with that much to do with the divine aspect of the material; she is also the only Goddess figure of the Trinity.  The goddess figure is traditionally Maya, the life-matrix.  Then again, the Holy Spirit Sophia is reminiscent of the Muse-goddess Inspiration of the Sufi poets...

also, is ShadowxXxdweller new here, or am I just not on enough?  (I am not on enough.  I really need to get on more.)  If you are new, welcome!  If not, sorry for the misunderstanding, and this was in no way sarcasm, honestly, even though I do that a lot!

I believe that God exists.

Killer states evil is one of the reasons he doesn't believe in God.

But God isn't giving us a candy store.  God is giving us life.  WE use it poorly or well.  God has given us reasoning and we need to make the most we can out of what our brains tell us to do.

I think the fact that we don't live in a candy store with all our wishes answered compels us to see God.  Allows us to see God.  God working through mankind to improve the world for mankind

Amen to that.

Unfortunately, the analogy fails on the shoals of definition. It makes an assumption that defeats it before it's uttered - that we're able to comprehend what "benevolence" or "evil" is to God. It assumes that God will reason pretty much the same as a human does. In other words, your philosophy professor requires the Zeus-God.

God, to be God, must by definition reason differently than we do. But there is a comparison that works, sort of.

Its a common theme in sci-fi - If you could go back in time and kill Hitler, would you? Would the world be better? After all, in that situation, you are omniscient - you know what he's going to do. You're omnipotent - you have a laser guided super duper bullet with just his name on it. And you're benevolent - you don't want all those millions to be killed.

But if you do. Winston Churchill will not lead Britain, the Canadain economy will not expand, women in Canada and other western nations will not enter the workforce in huge numbers, proving they can do more than wash dishes and have babies.  Soldiers from minorities such as native, black, asian ancestry will not begin to break down the barriers that are so easy to maintain on Main Street but so hard on the front line.

Frankly, i believe that God has a direction for Creation, but that God isn't too worried about how long it takes us to travel the inches, or miles, or parsecs, or whatever exist in that direction. That, as cf has so succinctly pointed out, is up to us.

Shadow

Yes we did discuss the topic of suffering but it was many months ago and certainly deserves to be explored again, and again.

My view is that God definitely isn't a "PuppetMaster". In fact I see Him taking a totally hands-off approach. As odd as it will seem, those who suffer do so because they have chosen to do so before birth. They made that decision so that they could learn from within a slightly different environment.

GR!! How are ya?? I posted a note on your wall. :)

Hi GR,

That's right. The argument was specifically made for the traditional interpretation of god. Sorry, I forgot to mention that. It was only meant to argue against a god that has all three of these qualities, omnipotence, omnipresense and omnibenevolence, which the traditional Judeo-Christian god model (or Zeus god model if you prefer) has.

I wouldn't kill Hitler if I could because then I probably wouldn't have been born. Affecting the universe from before you are born is essentially suicide, at least when it's something as influential as the death of Hitler. I agree with your argument as well, it's a less selfish version of mine basically.

I agree with you lastpointe. Alone, the suffering argument is very weak. It's much more effective as a suppliment to the stronger arguments against the existence of god.

I haven't read all the post 'cause its way to long but here is my opinion: "How can you smile if you have never cried" God (if he exists) is just trying to see the way we react to misery. Do we have a negative or positive effect. The beatitudes mostly explain this...

I have a wall?? ...... goes and looks .... neat.   

I'm well. Don't get to drop in nearly as often as I used to but life is like that .  No to worry, no doubt we'll find something to knock heads over in the months to come

Oh when I said the post was way to long I meant the comments not your post. I love long posts :P

Be sure to check out my new one about sixth sences then Cookie. I think maybe you'll find it interesting. ^-^

There were a couple of philosophers who theorized that if one were to go back in time and try and change something, that it would already be predestined and you would effect nothing because time had always anticipated for you to do that.  It was intended for you to do it.    Just thought I'd bring that up.

Assalaam Alaiykum

-Omni

Hi ShadowxXxDweller,

The attributes of kindness, gentleness and greatness explain how God interacts with the rest of creation.

Suffering is another way that creation can be interacted with.

None of this is mutually exclusive.

If God was the source of suffering then we would have grounds to question the attributes of kindness, gentleness and greatness.

If God is not the source of suffering then we can still ask questions about how those attributes apply but I think we also need to look at how the source of suffering, which is not God, determines God must be comprehended.

I cut my thumb preparing for last night's stir-fry.  Does that speak more to my clumsiness or perhaps inattentiveness more than it does God's gentleness, kindness or greatness?  Do I blame God for not interfering and preventing the injury or, do I resolve to pay more attention to what I am doing when I am operating knives in the kitchen?

Minor thing right?  Why should God be bothered with kitchen safety?  I think it speaks to the attribute of greatness.  Should God not be there to make sure that no blade gets close enough to me to pose a threat?  I mean it isn't like this particular scar is going to tell the women folk that I'm a bad boy and make me more mysterious right?  I'm married so I'm not out there whipping the scars out to show how tough and rugged I am.  It doesn't even get me a great deal of sympathy at home, in fact, I was questioned about whether or not I contaminated the meal with thumb pieces.

Anyway, what was more important that God couldn't have grabbed the knife and even yelled at me to pay attention?

Lots of things I'm sure but that shouldn't be too much of a hassle for an omnipotent God.

This is no crisis of faith.  It isn't a regular thing (I'm actually very competent in the kitchen and manage to cut myself very infrequently and never seriously (by that I mean requiring stitches).  It was my fault.  I was using very poor technique and the cut is a consequence of my own failure.  It is very minor suffering and after the brief bit of pain which immediately got my attention I was able to deal.  It is still tender this morning but I'll live.

The opportunity gives me an opportunity to reflect on the value of pain as a gift.  Not that it is something I wish to seek out.  I do wonder how far the blade would have gone had I felt no pain at all?  Perhaps then the pain we feel is, by comparison, much better than not being able to feel anything.

Perhaps the greatness, gentleness and kindness are not found in God's ability to prevent suffering so much as they are what we find when we realize that God is present with us in the midst of our suffering.

Grace and peace to you.

John

That's true Omni. However, I still think that I wouldn't have been born because if it was already predestined that I would go back in time to kill Hitler, then our history textbooks would say that somebody assassinated him. This theory is also logically impossible because assumes time flows and it creates a loop in time, which means that time flows and then moves up and falls on itself, thus affecting time from the point of impact on. If the change in time is Hitler dying earlier than he did historically then we are talking about huge changes.

Well, I believe it may have been me who posted that God is not a puppetmaster, so I suppose I should say something in answer to your post.

When I said that God's not a puppetmaster, I was really talking about salvation.

See, some people (a few, really, nowadays) believe that God goes around selectively slamming salvation into people against their own free will. Sounds like a spiritual rapist, really. These people, who are extreme Calvinists, believe that a person has no choice on whether or not s/he has faith in Christ, that God will just save him/her anyway.

Now as for me, I don't see it that way. I think that God has predestined some people for salvation, yes, but that he graciously calls all people to be saved, and allows us the choice of coming to him. All who freely choose to believe in Jesus will be saved.

Because I believe that God's grace is persuasive and works with man's will, and not coercive and against man's will, I argue that God is not a puppetmaster.

I am sure that would not be acceptable as a defense when one is accused of war crimes.

I have never cut or burned myself preparing food.   I use the brains that God gave me to keep myself safe in the kitchen.  

How is this cut changing your life?  Did it even endanger your life?

I would presume more dangerous if a guy was whipping out his scars to impress me,  I would think he got them in a bar fight because he was too slow to duck.

That was a good response on your wife's part so you would not be injuring yourself again in order to get attention.  I think I learned that in C&I in Health and Safety for preschoolers.  Not to give the ones who continually hurt themselves a lot of attention and then the clumsy behaviour stops.

I was being facetious up until now but I get your point,  God wants you to be careful.  THat is not a bad thing.

In this case it is easy to say that God did not have to intervene.  Your cut will heal.  This took minutes out of your day.  You will (hopefully) be more careful in the future.  I have no problem with God not intervening to prevent minor accidents.  In fact in a few weeks you will forget this minor lesson.

What about Joni Erikson?  She was careless for one minute and has to spend the rest of her young life in a wheelchair paralyzed?  She will never swim again.  She will never walk again.  She will likely never get married or have children.  This minor carelessness has lifelong consequences for her.  I suppose we could reason that it is still her fault.

What about children who are killed or paralyzed by drunk drivers?  Why should they suffer for someone else's carelessness?

The drunk driver made a mistake.  Lets take this one step further.  What about people who deliberately hurt others and cause them pain?  Parents beating their children?  Husbands beating their wives?  Why doesn't God intervene?

There is a Russian Song called the Wulcanlied.   It is about a boy who is 16 who is a soldier in WW2.  The English translation is that he is scared and he is praying.  He prays (and it was set to music) "Have you forgotten about me oh God?  I am so lonely and scared.  You have in Heaven many angels with you.  Couldn't you please oh please just send one to be with me."

How does it help that "God is with Us" when He does not do anything?

 EmoCookieDough: So he's basically a kid burning ants with a magnifying glass?

TheOmnissiah: I don't believe in predestination.

Come to think of it, that should be its own topic.

Hi Serena,

Fair enough.  Here is another anecdote.  I am in Algonquin Park with my Scout troop and we are felling old trees (with permission of course).  In the course of cutting down the trees a sliver of wood lands on the tongue of my boot pointing down towards the top of my foot.  One of my troop mates walking by steps on my foot, quite by accident and drives the sliver of wood deep into my foot.  So deep absolutely none of the sliver is visible.

I was instantly in pain and we ended up having to transport me to the nearest ranger station and from there to hospital.  X-rays show nothing.  Wood doesn't show up on X-rays.  I spend the night at the ranger station and join with my troop the following day to head home.  Upon arrival at home I am taken to the family physician who refers me to a specialist.

The specialist admits me to the General Hospital.  Because of the obvious infection in my foot I am admitted to ICU.

For the next two weeks the only doctor I see is my family physician.  He comes into my room daily to examine my foot and mark the progress of the infection.  He applies pressure to the wound daily which results in shooting and blinding pain.  My field of vision goes white when he applies pressure and there is a crazy amount of puss which geyser's from the wound which will not heal.

The infection claims my foot.  my lower leg, my knee, my upper leg and threatens to take my hip.  If it threatens to go past that they will amputate my leg otherwise they are looking at the possibility of my bowels going sceptic and me dying a rather painful death at the age of 13.

Because of protocols I am discharged from the hospital on Wednesday evening and back in Saturday morning for surgery (This is so that I can be readmitted under my family doctor's care and not the specialists care).  A couple of hours later I am waking up from surgery and my family doctor is swishing a very large sliver (7cm) which he has extracted from my foot.

I share this to point out that what you dismiss as minor can, in the right circumstances be life threatening. 

Anyway.  It was resolved well and apart from a surgical scar on the top of my foot it is still there to kick the backside of any foot specialist that gets in the way.

Joni Erikson-Tada was in the diving accident in 1967.  She married in 1982.  Read her book and see if you can figure out who she blames for the events which left her a quadripeligic. 

Why should God have to?  Why don't we hold the actual guilty parties responsible?  Why do we blame God for not intervening when what is really needed is people simply being more humane and considerate of others?  Should God intervene because of anyone's stupidity or immaturity?

For two weeks while I was in ICU I saw a doctor daily and I knew when he walked in the door he was going to redefine pain for me.  I also knew, judging by the amount of poisonous puss he was extracting from the initial injury that he was likely buying me some time, there is no way all of that stuff could have remained inside and not have rotted my flesh away.

My foot hurt constantly, even through the painkillers they were pushing.  The blinding pain came from hands doing their best to prevent further harm.

It was a freak accident.  Nobody was to blame.  Something was happening, that much was sure.  The doctor assigned to do something could not, apparently, be bothered to do anything more than look at an X-ray.  He was not present.  He wasn't causing me any pain either.

The doctor who had referred me fought to get some action taken and he was in to see me everyday and I know that he did not look forward to finding out that the infection was spreading.  I know that he did not enjoy having me white-knuckle the bedrails as he extracted the puss.  More than that I know that he was there and he was concerned.

We both knew that something had to be causing the infection.  We both knew that the best course of action was to enter the initial wound and see what was going on there.

The specialist thought we should just take the leg and be done with it.

So after clearing all readmission deadlines we went into surgery and after a quick incision and some retraction the sliver was discovered and removed.  The wound was cleaned out and the incision sutured.  I went to the CNE and walked around for the whole day on Sunday with four stitches in my foot.  On Monday, I went to the doctor's office and he checked everything over and said that my body was fighting off the infection and I shouldn't need any further medication.  He asked about any pain and I said compared to the daily visits in the hospital we had whatever pain I was experiencing now was manageable.

I saw the specialist for the first time two weeks later.  My family physician thought it would be funny to send me to the specialist to get the stitches removed.  I only agreed if he thought the specialist would be able to manage that.

So yes, eventually this doctor was able to intervene medically and heal my wound.

It was the two weeks of routine visit (which I absolutely did not look forward to) which came to mean so much more to me than the actual surgery.  He was there for me, he was present when I experienced the most pain and he was the one who told me what the future held in store if we didn't soon figure out what was wrong.

It built a very trusting relationship and I was sorry when he decided to retire.  Getting ill or injured just isn't the same without him.

It wasn't all him either.  I was given very explicit instructions not to use my leg so that we would limit the spread of the infection.  That meant, at the age of 13, having to ask for bedpans which is pretty humiliating no matter what your age might be.  So I did what he told me to do which gave him more time to do what he was doing and I doubt I will ever learn the full extent of what happened behind the scenes.

A few years after that they made the foot specialist the coroner.  That way nobody would die from his abilities.

Having a doctor present.  To explain what was going on and to understand what was most needed, even though it was most painful.  Now, all these years later I know what pain really is and I know how much more I can tolerate if it ever comes to that.

There were hundreds of decisions that I could have made which would have changed the outcome.  I could have forbade the family doctor from seeing me after the first time.  He should have been a bit more direct saying it was going to hurt tons rather than, "you might find this uncomfortable" (which was something of an inside joke for many years following).

Did I deserve any of that?  I don't believe I have done anything that would make having a 7cm splinter driven into my foot and nearly having a leg amputated just action.  Should God have intervened?  How?  Miraculously toughen my skin so that the splinter would just bounce off?  Miraculously eliminated all bacteria so that there would be no infection?  How about slapping a foot specialist upside the head and telling him to try being a doctor this month?

My family physician was, I believe, God's answer to many nights and afternoons of loneliness and prayer.  The course of action was way too long and way too worrying but it is hard to argue with the results.  It was better than the alternative.

All of it because of a splinter.

And the happy outcome is the result of one doctor taking responsibility for what he could take responsibility for rather than everyone sitting around saying God should intervene.  And the weeks of suffering were the result of one doctor playing God and determining if it couldn't be seen on an X-ray there was nothing there to be seen.

One last thing.  I was sent home with some very clear instructions.  The doctor believed that the infection would eventually clear itself up without having to prescribe me anit-biotics.  I could not let any residual infection sit in the wound.  I was to apply pressure to either side of the incision once a day and monitor the amount of puss that was extracted as well as the colour of.

I remember sitting on the counter in the bathroom looking at my foot and preparing to give it that familiar squeeze.  I remembered all of the pain of previous squeezes and wondered how I would handle it without a bedrail to squeeze.  I also thought that if by reflex I squeezed my foot harder I could hurt myself more.

With the splinter removed there was very little pain, there was still some puss but nothing like before the surgery and over the next week it became harder and harder to extract any.  The incision healed up and soon there was not opening to get puss out of.

Because I had survived my doctor doing what he did I knew I would survive doing it myself.  Because I did extract more puss I reduced the possibility of the infection running wild again.  Because I was monitoring everything as instructed I knew who to call if things turned ill.

Because of what Joni Erickson-Tada has gone through she has learned a great deal more about herself and the God she worships.  I expect that she has been more of an impact because of her determination after the accident than anything she had before.

Christopher Reeve played Superman in four movies.  One day he falls off of his horse and breaks his neck.  What he did afterward showed that not only could he act the part of Superman he could be just as much a hero from his chair.

Some came out of places like Dachau and Auswitz and Bergen-Belsen angry as hell at God for not intervening and others came out praising God for being present with them.

If anyone is pulling the strings it isn't God.  It is us.  We can't mend our own spines or fight off infection by an act of our own will.  We can, however; decide how we are going to respond.

Joni almost lost her fight to depression.  She decided to fight.  Reeve also fought depression but chose to fight.  I refused to give up and just let the doctor take the leg.  Just because I haven't gone on to raise millions for sliver awareness research doesn't mean that I have wasted the opportunity given to me.  Nor does the fact that neither Erikson-Tada or Reeve managed to walk unassisted again mean that there will never be a day that the injuries they suffered will no longer be as permanently disabling.

Sure, God could have intervened.  What would have been lost if God had?

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi RevJohn;

Thank-you for sharing this anecdotal story with me.  It proves my point more than it does yours though.

I am all to aware of how minor things in a chain of events can end up being life threatening and actually turn out to be life threatening.

I read a book about her.  It did not mention that she was married.  I know that she blames herself.

Because God CAN fix it.  The guilty parties are unable to.  Much like when I was little and careless an broke my toys and my Dad fixed them or bought me new ones because I was little and did not know any better.

I think God did intervene.  I think that He gave your family doctor the idea to open your foot to see what was causing the infection.

God does not send someone to help everyone.  He lets some people die.   Or he just leaves others to wallow in their lonelienss, grief, pain, and whatever physical ailments they are left with.

What is the outcome?  Do you limp?  Are you confined to a wheelchair?  Are you unable to work?  Were you unable to get married and have children?  You are able to do all those things.  The splinter is just a painful memory and possibly a powerful reminder that God loves you because He did not allow it to take your leg, kill you, or permanently disable you.  Peter had to go with the angel when the angel removed his shackels in prison.  The angel did not carry him out.

Would anything have been lost?  You are walking and you haven't lost anything have you?

Hi Serena,

So you would like to think.  You are overlooking a reat deal of detail to come to that conclusion though.

So then, why should God only intervene in big things and not also small things if God is going to intervene at all?

The book was written before her marriage.  If you are aware that she blames herself perhaps you should be trying to convince her that what is really at fault was God not intervening.

Sure, God can fix it.  Is that the best solution though?  Great cosmic do overs?  What would anybody learn from that?  That God is a softy and a broken vending machine (happily broken so that you don't have to even put a coin in to get your candy).

I think that the idea of opening a wound to treat an infection is rather basic medicine.  Something born of experience.  In this instance it was a previous patient of his who drove his motorcycle through a plate glass window.  A 23cm splinter of glass punctured this patient just below the knee cap and laid against his shin.  Now the relative depths of skin made detecting the glass shard relatively simple.  It was the similarity of symptoms that convinced my doctor very early on after my admission that there was a foreign body in the wound.  Glass also does not show on X-rays.

Why would God give the one doctor the idea and not the other doctor?

Why would God not give the idea to the doctor whose care I was under?

Of all the things I felt in the hospital, abandoned by God was not one of them.  I was lonely because at the time I was in ICU and only my parents were permitted to visit.  My dad being the drunk that he is came only once and he was plastered when he came.  It is the only time I remember him telling me that he loved me.  I learned early that you can never believe anything a drunk tells you when they are inebriated.  That didn't hurt as much as the doctor squeezing my foot.  It is an injury that has yet to fully heal.  I suppose if my dad ever managed to tell me that he was proud of me of that he loved me when he was sober it might be enough for healing to happen.  I'm not holding my breath.  I have lived this long with that hurt I'll live to see another day with it.

At the end of the day I knew that with or without that leg God would still be God and whether I lived or died God would still be God.  I might want better but I can't do better so criticizing God is sour grapes.  I took every chance offered to grow and to learn more about myself.  I build on those learnings as often as I possibly can.

The only visible outcome is a scar.  It was still two weeks of pain or does that not matter now?  It was two weeks under a doctors care who never bothered to exercise basic medicine.  That threatened my ability to trust doctors.  I had a choice not trust because of one or trust because of one.  Two weeks of prolonged absence from family and friends lying in a hospital bed listening to children much younger than myself cry themselves to sleep at night.  I was in pain and I was surrounded by others in pain.  Everything was misery if you let it be.  So you pick what to focus on.

What did I pick?  I found out that I could have sorbet just for asking.  I'd never had it before.  I like it quite a bit.  So as soon as the doctor had left the room while I was still hurting from his ministrations I would call the nurse and ask for sorbet.  I had a choice orange or raspberry.  I ate orange all the time except for when I really needed something more, then I reserved the raspberry for that.

It doesn't seem like a great deal.  It was all I had control over and by taking that control over such a trivial thing as when I would eat sorbet and what flavour I would eat I proved I wasn't completely helpless.

Two weeks of summer vacation is almost a lifetime to a 13 year old.

But forget about me.  What about Joni Erikson-Tada?  How has she changed the world she lives in as a result of her experience?  Would that have happened if she had never had the accident?  Would you say that God was not present in her recovery?  Would you say that her life is in no way blessed?

Grace and peace and peace to you.

John

Yes. Because the fact that he's a doctor couldn't have any effect on his ability to be a doctor.

Then how is god love? If god doesn't save everyone but does save some, then god is an asshole. It's more reasonable to believe that god doesn't exist because then it makes sense why some people live good lives and others bad lives.

So god doesn't love disabled and retarted people?

He would lose his faith. If god shows himself then revjohn can't wonder about it because he will know what god is. There will be no reasonable excuse for revjohn to doubt god's existence so his belief will mean nothing.

I ca't believe your seriously asking this question.  there is hurt and suffering in the world because of satan, duh!..God does not cause suffering, or any bad things, they happen because of the enemy, but, God will give us the strength we need to come through the bad stuff, that is because He is God, and He is Love.....sheesh! have you not figured it out by now?

Imho, god doesn't intervene in anything. If god does exist it is neither love nor hate in the sense that we can comprehend. This way I don't blame god for bad things that happen in the world or thank god for so called blessings. I guess it would be easier to understand suffering this way. Things happen that we don't like in life, good or bad that is life.

Hi beautifulkids and welcome to WonderCafe,

Allegedly the world will know we are Christians by our love.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Satan is just a skapegoat made by the Hebrew Mythology to shift the blame of suffering from god. Even if that was not the original intention of Satan, it is the intention of modern literalists, as you have just shown us.

It's pathetic how naive some people can be these days...

killer

Or perhaps it's just the old shifting blame routine?

I didn't do it, it was Satan. The Devil made me do it.

Anything I do that is bad is because I was born with original sin, etc., etc.

I think the best we can do is to agree to disagree.  My God is not the vengeful God of the Bible, that sounds more like a computer game, kill thine enemy, kill thy neighbour, rejoice as I have killed thine enemy.  Oh boy, doesn't that sound like someone you want to have around.

They have their faith and I don't think anyone is going to change their mind.  It is an opening up that is required and requires real courage, to leave the old ways behind to look to new ways of perceiving God.

Too much time being spent here.  Darn.

IT

Russ

killer

Or perhaps it's just the old shifting blame routine?

I didn't do it, it was Satan. The Devil made me do it.

Anything I do that is bad is because I was born with original sin, etc., etc.

I think the best we can do is to agree to disagree.  My God is not the vengeful God of the Bible, that sounds more like a computer game, kill thine enemy, kill thy neighbour, rejoice as I have killed thine enemy.  Oh boy, doesn't that sound like someone you want to have around.

They have their faith and I don't think anyone is going to change their mind.  It is an opening up that is required and requires real courage, to leave the old ways behind to look to new ways of perceiving God.

Too much time being spent here.  Darn.

IT

Russ

Russ, do you mean you and I should agree to disagree? Because unless you were being sarcastic, I think we're on the same side. Unless you're talking about agreeing to disagree with beautifulkids, however that's not something I'm willing to do without a thorough discussion first.

 Here's something interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystheism

RevJohn: Your arguments are good, but we really don't need to know about your injuries in graphic detail.  Generally, in social situations, that is considered annoying.  The internet is the same.

killer_rabbit: The idea is that God doesn't intervene in miraculous ways, but through people, in ways that follow the logic of the world he has created.  

And you're asking how DOES God love.  If God is love, and people won't let love into their lives, that's their problem.

beautifulkids: Welcome to the cafe, if I'm not mistaken.  Please don't act superior because you're a fundie and we aren't.  It is not a 'duh' issue.  Not everyone believes in Satan.

If God is omnipotent, why does he allow Satan to exist?