Hi graeme

Perhaps if you have just recently spoken to the parents they need time to digest what you've said. They may be in shock or denial.

The daughter must certainly be aware of her boyfriend's background. Possibly a large part of what she's feeling towards him is pity. She's confusing it with love and she hopes to change his way of thinking.

As you know sometimes when the parents interfere and try to break up the couple it only serves to drive the couple closer together. It becomes " You and me against the world". I've heard stories of young people in love committing suicide because of it.

You feel you should be doing something about it as a matter of good conscience. Faced with this scenario I'm not as good as you are. I'd be inclined to bow out . You have done your duty. You've told the parents that you are very concerned.

yikes.  I have a similar family situation, a bit extended, but any attempts to change it /thwart it/ prevent it didn't work.   Now, there is a baby as well.  I wouldn't say the parents had no concerns but were not tuned in enough to  understand it fully, and certainly unable to change it.  And not Aryan either, as a significant marker of his 'faith'. 

"Detachment" may be your only option - recognizing that no matter what you want to do, it will have no positive impact, and so you move on.  Agonizing at times, or infuriating, but sometimes necessary & healthy.

If the guy has crossed any lines of legal nature, some well placed hints might cause a ripple, or alert people who know how to watch this stuff (police???).  Maybe he's connected with a group of people who could be exposed - but this could be more focus than you need to put on the issue.  Is there a reason the parents don't respond?

Graeme, unfortunately, I think, you have done all you can. You have alerted the parents. What more can you do?

I'm afraid you're all lright. His father, who lives within a twenty minute drive of  him, is not only an alcoholic. It appears he also has a criminal record. His church is an association of people with a record of terrorist violence, including mass murder. The American press is polite, and calls them "militia".

He's spent a lifetime of brainwashing. He could well become dangerous. But -  you're right. I don't see anything I can do. And so far, the parents don't seem to care.

I certainly will try, t hough, to find out whether such a church has meetings in this area.

graeme

I've been googling. I can't come up with much in Canada except this website.

How can the parents not care?

Perhaps they just dont' really know or understand.

or perhaps the young man has told them and has removed himself from the group and his father.  But that they don't want to talk about it.

I woudl be equally worried that a young couple are dating and living in the same house and that at 17 she is gling to be living with him and working at what sort of job? 

if the group has caused problems, there is a legal reason for putting the police after them.  That is a separate issue, but certainly not a worthless one.  The fallout could be worthwhile.

In all cases, remember that not everyone is mentally capable at the same level.  Not necessarily their fault, and often nothing to be done about that.  We can scoff and expect more responsibility or more intelligence, but that doesn't make it possible.  You can't legislate mental health.  We can only soften the trouble.

Why is it

"agreed the daughter will move in with h im when she is seventeen and finishes high school. "?

I hope the parents are gently and wisely with kind and proper words talking to this young woman about what the future for her and any children she may have with this young man might bring.

Sad for the parents, sad for the girl, sad for the young man who is being led . . .

Church of Jesus Christ - Christian sounds like the one. And the young man is quite devoutly attached to it.

As last pointe suggests, I really cannot understand parents who would not be concerned about all the parts of this bizarre situation.

But - as you all say - rightly - there's not much I can do.

It's hard to watch someone so young taking a path that appears so lumpy, Graeme, but sometimes standing by is the only ticket.  If you are in regular contact you could maybe interject gentle conversations about cultish indoctrination, but that seems about it, to me.  Good luck and I hope you do find a way to steadfastly support them. 

Sometimes, unless and until, a law is broken, there is nothing we can do in someone else's life.  In this case, either the girl's, her parents', or this young man.  Except pray if that is our habit . . .

I respectfully disagree with the above. One voice can make a difference BUT first you have to gain full understanding and listen to the parents to their reasonings as to why they support this. That means listening first, taking time to take it all in and asking questions gently afterward. Admit you don't understand.

I hav done some of that. So far, they just don't care. The dominant figure, by far, is the father. And he certainly doesn't care.

Remember how Nathen enlightened David?

graeme ....my heart goes out to this girl...

Such a terrible situation you have described!

It is sort of like watching a train wreck happening....

If I may pray for a moment..... (I hope that is ok .....)

Lord God ....please intervene in this situation and open the understanding of those involved.

Holy Spirit ...please bind the evil influences and release the good influences....

Prepare them and send those that they will hear.....

Please protect them all....especially that young girl...

This I ask in the name of Jesus...

......

Hugs

Rita

The father may support the position of that church.  And if those are his beliefs, you should probably respect them.

Actually, no.  Batshiat crazy beliefs don't merit respect, and anti-Semitic beliefs are certainly batshiat crazy religious beliefs.  If you believe that the world's ills are the fault of the Jews, who represent a very small percentage of the world's population (though a rather high percentage of the world's comedians), you're mentally ill.  Then again, if you believe that a guy died for your sins 2000 years ago, your mental health is not exactly robust, either.

But how you would go about changing anyone's mind, is another matter.  Breaking the cycle of "white power" or anti-Semitic belief is not easy.  If there was an easy way, or a vaccine, we'd be dropping it from crop dusters.  My methods clearly wouldn't work, as they mostly involve criticism and ridicule, with the aim of reducing the spread of the disease - not curing those already afflicted.

RitaTG

I join with you in prayer. Amen.

There is so much wrong with this situation that I wouldn't know where to start if I were in your position Graeme. 

First off, I cannot understand parents having this young man living in their home when he is most likely involved with their underaged daughter.  Isn't that 'aiding and abetting'? 

And the parents apparently see no problem with their young daughter planning to 'move in with' and then marry at the age of 17. 

Even if he were otherwise perfect, I can't get past those without red flags going up.

Then the boy - he claims to be a Christian, but I have no doubt that he is involved with this young girl and I suspect that if they are not already sharing a bedroom they are making frequent visits back and forth. 

And the vary idea of white suprimists, anti-semitic, skin heads scares the s----- out of me.  So I'd better shut up and leave it to others.

Ok, being gay and of Jewish background the antiSemitic stuff might have me unable to think, but it does not.

Let me start with Christian Identity groups that graft antiSemitic, racist, sexist, homophobia onto religion. The same laws that protect my freedom to religion, also protect theirs. There have also been times mainstream denominations have shown antiSemitic, racist, sexist, homophobic theology.

They  have a very conservative interpretation of the Bible and are homophobic. So are any number of denominations and our own past includes teaching what we may now point at in disgust.

They may view some people as spawn of Cain, so too did many Christians when the discussions was blacks or aboriginals. We can look at our own pasts or look at the Mormons. Traditionally, calling people "mud people" or saying they have no soul is not exclusive territory of the Christian Identity movement.  Remember their leaders came from somewhere, often clergy in other denominations, who perverted or expounded beliefs...

How many people who would say they are not racist and actually think Adam and Eve or Jesus were white? I am afraid the number is higher than we want to imagine.  Now I ask, how have we, how do we propogate that image?

So, ok.... their beliefs are not for me. I fall back on the same laws that protect my freedom of religion within the confines of law to protect theirs.

British-Israelism, which held that the Anglo-Saxons were the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel was not antSemitic but fuelled the American version that is. Their antiSemitism has flavoured religion for years. Yes, it is obvious in their own Christian Identity groups, but what about Nation of Islam? What about other conservative Christians in mainstream denominations?

Are they dangerous? Yes. The Christian Identity folks are a small group, but they dominate the discourse of the extreme right--even among groups not even distantly related to them.

Other beliefs other folks have or have had are dangerous too. So are any number of other beliefs in certain ways. Would I paint them as all terrorists or doing lynchings? No I would not. I do not believe all Islamic, Jewish or Christian conservatives are terrorists.

So, where to next....

The fact that this family is not outraged? Ok, the law of consent in Canada, across the board  is 16. The revision of the law stripped 14- and 15-year-olds of the right to consent to sex -- except with other teenagers who are no more than five years older -- unless the partners are legally married. The law stipulates that persons 12 and 13 can consent to sex with persons up to only two years older. Even if they are peers, sex involving persons under 12 remains illegal.

So, this relationship, if sexual even, is not illegal.

Young adults dating with ages of 16 and 19 would not elicit this response from me. That they talk of marriage might, but that they talk of it "down the line" not so much so. If they are dating people they would never consider dating, it would be a concern too. Marriage after high school, well... it happens and has happened for eons. I am not a fan, but I do not burst blood vessels at the very idea. That this boy comes from a troubled home and is invited to live with them, well... not perfect, but again I cannot find myself judging. My first girlfriend's grandmother took me in.

That they might be or are having sex? Many that age are. How many of us did? How many of our kids, grandkids have?

Also, I think you can be Christian and engage in premarital sex. So, I have to wonder about that even being mentioned.

Now, as for the parents or the daughter not being alarmed. Do we understand this boy may be nice in most ways? My step-dad is a wonderful man, good husband, was a great father... and a racist.

I have certainly encountered many good people who are/were homophobes.

Do we understand people listen to Tea Party folks and start blaming "immigrants" for all their woes? Do we think about what we have heard said on television, on radio, around us....? We do not subscribe, but do we understand others might when "facts" are provided and "figures" are given? Do we get that doctors, politicians, lawmakers... said homosexuals were disordered and child predators and dangerous offenders? Do we get that good people bought it?

Do we get how brainwashing happens? Do we understand how people taught that homosexuality was a sin and all that jazz? Do we understand how people bought it, accepted it, embraced it, propogated it....?

Why are we then wondering about the mental health of the girl's parents?

For me, these parents may have come in with beliefs that made it compatible, they may have been swayed or they may think "other than that, he is a good kid".

I just find that this thread troubles me as much as the kid's beliefs do.

What does the boys' fathers alcoholism and mental illness have to do with it? How many of us are the offspring of criminals, the mentally ill, the addicted... What are we saying?

What is wrong with a 16 and a 19 year old dating?

Can you say you are, be a Christian, and have premarital sex?

That sounds terrible, but as others have noted, there is not much you can do.  I was a single mother to two teen-agers and I went through various nightmares.    Really, one cannot control what one's children are going to do.

You can only talk to them and hope it sinks in, and that they do not irrevocably screw their lives up (both of mine are well past that phase now but it was extremely stressful at the time).  

Pray!  I will light for her next Sunday.

It is strange the parents are not concerned, but what can you do about that either?

graeme

I was thinking it would be interesting to pay a visit to that church just out of curiosity if you know the location. I believe the name of it may be followed by Ayran Nations. I've been playing the sleuth. There are so many groups and various names. Perhaps I shouldn't be posting these links on the WC. After you read this I think I had better come back and edit or delete some of them.

Some glitches on the WC, website isn't working properly.

The girl's father is atheist. He rules the family. The wife is non-observant, at best.

The church is called Church of Jesus Christ - Christian. I believe its base is in Oklahama. I cannot find one in this area.

But I agree with you all. I can just watch.

I can't go into detail about my family's story - it is not my own story after all, but I am going to say that if we're trying to apply logic, it doesn't help.  If we're trying to have rational arguments, they don't count for much, and if we're going to say that love & intervention & reaching out will make a difference, I say that is highly arbitrary. 

Not everyone is rational in this world.  And yet the world goes round and round.  

The sad part is when the world goes round & round, but leaves someone behind.  Like the abused person, neglected children, beaten minority.... 

Maybe can't do much about it!! Had a young couple in my office, the boy was taken in by the Jehovah's Witnesses, and the girl couldn't take it. They split. His family was shocked, and asked for help dealing with it, but we don't know how to de-cult someone who has been brainwashed and bought in hook, line and sinker.  I was surprised in casting about for help that there really isn't any...

I never suggested that one just watches. If there is danger it is reported, period.

I am questioning why one is filling in blanks or why it matter what faith the parent's are or are not... the father's alcoholism...

There are bigots in everyone's neighbourhood, seen and unseeen. They are in  households without mental illness, addictions...

I have encountered tons of homophobes, not all, not even most will physically gay bash, rape... The same for racists, most are not out lynching people... The same for sexists...

That somehow this girl is in danger is most likely that she loves a jerk and bigot. he is likely not going to kill her.

Is he likely planning a mass murder or terrorist assualt or a lynching, his next hate crime? No, he is likely not. He is likely attending a rally and listening to others spew and spewing his own junk.

I am not making light of Christian Identity folks. I am also not willing to terror monger.  

Can you apply logic to someone from a Christian Identity church to explain why black people are human, have souls and are God's chidlren? Likely not.

Not anymore than I can use logic to tell a fundamentalist homophobic Christian that I am not a child molestor or pervert.

Are they irrational? Not in the sense that they are mentally ill. They are not. They are as normal as you or I. They ARE you or I. I know many people who are reformed racists or homophobes... It is just that you have to get through too much history and indoctrination.... and they will resist. So you cannot often engage logic with them. 

Detachment. If they come around it is on their own.

The boy's fatther is mentally ill, as well as being an alcoholic racist and Nazi. The only education the boy has is what he got  from his father., which means close to none. He is in Canada illegally. The church he belongs to is not a vague threat.  It's leadership was involved in the Oklahoma bombing. It advocates terrorism and violence. (His father, who has a crminal record, is also in Canada illegally.) The boy will never be able to handle any job beyond grocery clerk - and perhaps not that.

If you had a daughter 16 years old, would you be encouraging this romance by having him move in as a boarder? Would you agree that she can move into his room immediately after grade 12,, and both will live there indefinitely?

Oh, he father is also seriously bipolar - and the son has signs of it.

I don't want to be judgemental. But I will be, especially since we spent Nov. 11 mourning the dead and seem to have fogotten why they died. I think Naziism and anti-semitism had something to do with it.

You could tip off the authorities to his illegal status...just a thought.  It's one of the few things you *can* do.

Azdgari

quote:

"You could tip off the authorities to his illegal status...just a thought.  It's one of the few things you *can* do."

That's an idea but what if the daughter suspects graeme was involved?  The father's friends may not be lambs?  I'm not sure if people deported to the U.S. spend time in jail there or not? What if the daughter decides to take off  to be with her love if he's free there? That might be worse than ever in the long run.

It might indeed.  I'm not advising for or against it - just pointing it out as an option to be evaluated.

I  can only agree with just about everything everybody has said.

I don't know Canadian law so I'm guessing a little here. Could something like social services intervene becasue the girl is a minor? In the U.S. 16 is legal in some states, in others it's not until 17. I think she is still savable so to speak but the guy may be a real longshot. I really hope she gets away from him, some way, some how. If not it's a bad future for her.

and  how long does it take before she's pregnant?

Graeme is this boy making new friends in Canada?  And even if his education is lacking is it not expected that he does get a job at 19?(even if it's deliveries or grocery clerk) Does it not make sense to anyone that he attempt to legitimize his stay in Canada for these reasons alone?

I'm wondering if these changes would open up his world and start to be influenced by how others live instead of having his Dad as his primary role model? Or could it be that your friends have taken him in to be part of that influence? If your friends haven't changed into rascists possibly they see some hope for this boy.

Jon's idea sounds like a possibility. I'll look at it.

The parents see no good in the boy. They just don't care. And they're happy to get his rent check. Again, the lead role here is played by the girl's father. The only job he has now is two hours a day doing housework for us while my wife recovers from an operation.

The boy's father can't get Canadian citizenship. Aside from entering the country illegally, he has a criminal record. The boy's chances of landed immigrant status are slim. He entered illegally, too. I rather expect that membership in a Nazi, racist, anti-semitic church with a record of advocating violence won't help. /abd the names of members of that church are sure to be on the watch list.

If we back up - say he's a really nice guy with great potential - would you allow your 16 years old daughte's boyfriend to move in with you? And would you allow her to move into his room as soon as she's seventeen? Just with that, we're already at the point where I would say no. Okay, I'm old-fashioned.

Now add to that he's a braiwasted nazi who belongs to a church that advocates hatred and terrorism.

Can anyone seriously suggest this sounds like a good arrangement?

All this doesn't reflect well on our borders does it?  Just curious, how DID they get in without the proper papers. (I know there's many ways)

And why did they come here? Do they have a warrant against them?

If the boy hasn't actually moved into the girls room the only illegal activity is that he has illegally entered the country along with his father. You can't really have an investigation into something that hasn"t happened yet but you may be able to inform somone anonymously about the other.

I have heard of this "church"!  I think the people in it are mentally unbalanced.  If I was the father, I would be seriously concerned about the mental stability of this boy.  But the father sounds  a little odd himself, to the say the least.

graeme

This story sounds worse all the time.

Do you know if the boy's father lives alone or with someone ? Is it possible that the boy doesn't see, visit, or agree with his father? But then, I guess they are in the same church. Does the girl go to church with the boy?

Since you talk to the girl's father its possible he might be smart enough to pin it on you if anything happens, meaning if you take away his income by fingering the boy. So..if he told the boy or girl  his hunch....and the boy told the church ......might not these crazy church people come after you?  Caution is all I'm  saying. They sound like dangerous characters.

jon's idea does sound about the best. I'm not sure the  law would bother to act on it other than some talk. I've no experience with social services but I've heard cases where they can mess up...give out names etc. You might have to divulge the real reason you're so concerned ( the boy and crime)  and then you may be in the thick of it, police reports.....who knows.

In Ont. I don't think the law cares who sleeps with who or how young they are. I haven't read of any such cases. Sometimes there's 2 or 3 families living in a 2 bedroom apt. sleeping on the floor or wherever,  or a couple  in a one bedroom with a boy and a girl who don't have separate bedrooms. Nobody checks up on what's what or seems to care.

If social services visited the girl's family without you telling the full story you'd have no case. Sex? Do you know?  They have separate bedrooms.

I have a suggestion for you Graeme.  You say that your wife is recovering from surgery - might this not be a good time for her to have a female companion in the house to do some of the cleaning and cooking, etc.   Why not invite the girl as a paid live-in, giving her time during the day to attend school?  

If she jumps at the chance you have a pretty good clue that she is not too sure about the whole situation at home.  Even if she comes a bit reluctantly, just for the money, you or your wife would have a chance to talk to her. 

Thtat's an interesting thought. I'll mention it to my wife.

The boy rarely visits his father. But he is thoroughly indoctrinated. So far as I know, there is no chuch for them to attend in this area.

seeler

Your suggestion was good but graeme already has the girl's father over doing housework for two hours a day. It might insult him to let him go. Graeme is retired so I was thinking he may not want to pay for more help if its not required.

Then too, does his wife need to be in the midst of a whole lot of hoopla while she isn't feeling well? The boy would probably be arriving at graeme's too to visit the girl. You know what I mean. Graeme  might be too closely involved with the whole family and wish he'd stayed clear.