I only caught the last couple of minutes, but it's clear you still have a handful of people in the UCCan who see nothing wrong with what people think of when they think evangelism. Clearly, the reason people haven't been coming is they just haven't heard enough about Jesus yet. Yeah, that'll work.
You've also got some nutbars who can't stop thinking about Gretta and how terrible she is. I only commented at the end, and said there was nothing wrong with being a heretic. Had a whole bunch of people who don't even know me agreeing. That was hlarious. Thanks to them.
Arminius
Posted on: 01/09/2014 14:45
Hi chansen:
Jesus, the figurehead of Christianity, was executed for being a heretic. Therefore, for Christians, there must something very right with being a heretic.
chansen
Posted on: 01/09/2014 14:52
Yeah, I wasn't expecting the immediate approval. I would also say that it is perfectly fine to be a blasphemer. Ran out of time.
Arminius
Posted on: 01/09/2014 14:54
Orville's definition of evangelism was: "Passionately sharing our faith without coercion."
"Passion without coercion," I like that.
chansen
Posted on: 01/09/2014 14:57
Then what do you do with the coercive verses?
revjohn
Posted on: 01/09/2014 15:28
Hi Arminius,
Arminius wrote:
Jesus, the figurehead of Christianity, was executed for being a heretic.
Ummmmm. No. Jesus wasn't.
The Jewish offence he was accused of was blasphemy. In a free Israel such a charge was punishable by law and would have likely resulted in his being stoned to death.
Israel was not "free" at the time it was an occupied province of the Roman Empire. Crucifixion was the method of execution of the Roman Empire and they did not find Jesus to be a heretic either.
It was typical for the criminal so crucified to be identified by a sign stating the crime. Names were not posted because crucifixion was meant to strip you of your identity. So, ordinarily you would wander past a cross, see and individual on it and reading the sign you would note that it was a thief or murderer or traitor.
According to the narrative Jesus was named on his sign and the reason for his crucifixion was that he was the King of the Jews. The sign would be a reminder that there is no true King in Israel but Caesar (deters treason against the empire) and the proverbial finger to the Jews (this is what we would do to a real King of Israel) and to Herod.
Arminius wrote:
Therefore, for Christians, there must something very right with being a heretic.
Only if one accepts the premise that Jesus was executed for being a heretic.
Grace and peace to you.
John
Birthstone
Posted on: 01/09/2014 17:12
It didn't address what about evangelism creeps people out. And I'm not left with a confidence about a universal United Church direction on evangelism - certainly, I would not be comfy in a place that focuses on a "I love Jesus" message.
I do think that some good questions have been posted on United Future that might get at more of this. I hope some ideas on more progressive, or at least liberal evangelism will rise out of the discussion. The Way of Jesus/Christ offers justice and hope and direction when we break down the barriers that divide us. Whether I 'love' him or not, whether I am saved, or solely devoted, or stuck with deep questions, doesn't change that, and so it opens doors to others who aren't so sure or come from other walks of life or other faiths. Evangelism might be a way to promote that Way so people can discover it through word & action, and maybe they'll come to admire, & be open to knowing the Spirit that Christians see as its source. Mouthful - maybe that is why we don't evangelize well. "I Jesus" is easier.
Aldo
Posted on: 01/09/2014 17:46
well, well well...
now I figured discussing is evangelizing...
; )
stardust
Posted on: 01/09/2014 18:11
According to some of the chat comments I wish that some of the participants ( those who posted their thanks after the event) might have heard about the WonderCafe and wandered in to visit us, to explore the topic further and to give their suggestions and opinions. I'm not saying my attitude is proper but I sometimes feel that the WC gets kicked in the teeth by the UC....or GC....or whatever!
Quotes from the United Future forum to illustrate my point about how hungry people are for discussion:
Great reminders! Thank you. Journeying alongside the congregation in order to impart the joy of serving God without the fears of being 'religious' might be a way forward for us! Maintaining a positive attitude in the midst of complaints and critici... See More
What a terrific conversation. How long have I been waiting to hear the UCC discuss aloud the Good News as opposed to being almost afraid to utter it. We do it in our outreach everyday and in everyway except in proclaiming aloud WHY we do it. We do it... See More
i stumbled into serving a UCC congregation part time and have sometimes wondered... but a very encouraging session today with you. thank you and God bless you
What a terrific conversation. How long have I been waiting to hear the UCC discuss aloud the Good News as opposed to being almost afraid to utter it. We do it in our outreach everyday and in everyway except in proclaiming aloud WHY we do it. We do it to follow the simple commandment left to us by Jesus Christ, "Love God and Love your neighbour".
i stumbled into serving a UCC congregation part time and have sometimes wondered... but a very encouraging session today with you. thank you and God bless you
There were some people who do participate on the WC. I only recognized a few names, George F, Nora Sanders, and Chansen.
I would appreciate future sessions much more if the hosts would answer the public's questions and talk much less amongst themselves, also if they were given more time.
I have watched a few webinars that I felt were better organized and more friendly towards the public who asked questions.
@Birthstone : Your comment here is the best, it has some meat and potatoes in it. Sorry I'm rather tongue tied or burned out.................:(...I like to read but I don't often post.
stardust
Posted on: 01/09/2014 19:35
Oops...sorry, I just checked the United Vision website again. It appears I had missed the forum aspect of it where questions are answered or comments are discussed. The forum is listed on the left side of the web page titled Discuss and Share. Replies are called "Reactions". There are a few reactions and some past Dec. entries as well.
chansen
Posted on: 01/09/2014 19:43
Justin spent the few minutes I was on, ranting about Gretta and linking blogs about how awful the UCCan is. I think most people just wanted him to shut up.
GeoFee
Posted on: 01/09/2014 20:18
Hello folk...
This was my second try. Found the presentation just fine. Could have found the same information and insights with a brief Google search. Input thread impossible to consider conversation. Overall? A room with three persons having a conversation and the remainder passive or texting along a variety of thought streams.
I asked that some member of United Future post in the Cafe, so that the conversation could be given a bit of depth. Hope to see something initiated here by the United Future folk.
George
Jobam
Posted on: 01/09/2014 23:22
GeoFee "Could have found the same information and insights with a brief Google search." Could this not be said for most UCC sermons/services?
In my humble opinion, we discuss to much, not enough action.
chansen
Posted on: 01/09/2014 23:57
GeoFee wrote:
This was my second try. Found the presentation just fine. Could have found the same information and insights with a brief Google search. Input thread impossible to consider conversation. Overall? A room with three persons having a conversation and the remainder passive or texting along a variety of thought streams.
You're right. It reminded me of irc chat, that awful short text chatting medium that predated Twitter and was impossible to understand, and useless unless you were a teenager or a pedophile. By the time you write a thoughtful response to someone, nobody else cares, because there have been 20 entries since then, most of them mind-numbing.
They keep coming up with stuff like Facebook and webinars and other ways to interact online, but nothing beats a simple forum.
I feel like I should be yelling at kids to get off my lawn now.
Alex
Posted on: 01/10/2014 00:31
Did anyone learn something new that could be applied to their church or themselves?
stardust
Posted on: 01/10/2014 00:31
GeoFee
The United Future folk will be along any minute now.
stardust
Posted on: 01/10/2014 00:44
Alex
Seriously the UC wants to evangelize but not in the spirit or theology of the TV evangelists. The trick is to discover a different method. Someone posted a video of Billy Graham but I don't think that's going to cut it......:(
Do you have any ideas?
stardust
Posted on: 01/10/2014 01:33
I found the secret recipe in evangelizing ....its jokes.....jokes by the dozen. Consider Joel Osteen's mega church. He has some terrific opening lines.
Quote:
I like the one he told about the elderly couple having a problem with their memory. They went to the doctor and he told them to start writing everything down. A few days later, the couple was watching tv and the wife said "I sure would like a bowl of ice cream" and the husband said he'd go get it. The wife says "Now you know what the doctor said. We have to write it down." to which he replied "I'm just going to the kitchen. I wont forget." A few minutes later he came back in and handed her a plate of bacon and eggs. She shook her head and said "I knew you'd forget the toast!"
I heard about this 85-year-old woman. She went on a blind date with a 92-year-old man. She came home very frustrated and her daughter said, "Mom, what's wrong?" She said, "I had to slap him three times." The daughter said, " You mean he tried to get fresh?" She said, "No, I thought he was dead." -- From Joel Osteen Jokes
Clean Osteen Jokes....any "clean" people here...?...
chansen
Posted on: 01/10/2014 02:01
Please tell me you're joking.
No, really.
stardust
Posted on: 01/10/2014 02:05
LOL @Chansen...................!!!!!
chansen
Posted on: 01/10/2014 02:27
Sorry, not trying to be funny. Unlike Joel, who just isn't.
Alex
Posted on: 01/10/2014 02:59
stardust wrote:
Do you have any ideas?
I just think that we need to be more accessible, (disabled, working people, the young, etc) and to stop discriminating against whole classes of people for what ever reason. Also evry church should be based in a community, or even better a group of communities. CHurches that do not want to include many different kinds of people, especially those living in the local neighbourhood have a right to exist in the UCC., but they should not be allowed to call themselves churches, or christian, or United.
Evengelism without accessible is like telling people to do as we say, but to ignore that the churches do not believe the good news, nor would we do what it calls for ourselves.
Arminius
Posted on: 01/10/2014 10:08
Yes, birthstone, the word "evangelism" creeps people out because it has been usurped and abused by a small albeit very vocal fundamentalist, literalist, and absolutist Christian Right.
If, as Orville James said at the end of the conversation, evangelism is "passionately sharing our faith without coercion," then why not name it "passion"? Jesus was passionate about compassion, and so are most of us modern day UCCers. The passion of Jesus was compassion. So why not "put passion back into compassion" rather than "re-claiming evangelism"?
COMPASSION?
Arminius
Posted on: 01/10/2014 09:55
revjohn wrote:
Hi Arminius,
Arminius wrote:
Jesus, the figurehead of Christianity, was executed for being a heretic.
Ummmmm. No. Jesus wasn't.
The Jewish offence he was accused of was blasphemy. In a free Israel such a charge was punishable by law and would have likely resulted in his being stoned to death.
Israel was not "free" at the time it was an occupied province of the Roman Empire. Crucifixion was the method of execution of the Roman Empire and they did not find Jesus to be a heretic either.
It was typical for the criminal so crucified to be identified by a sign stating the crime. Names were not posted because crucifixion was meant to strip you of your identity. So, ordinarily you would wander past a cross, see and individual on it and reading the sign you would note that it was a thief or murderer or traitor.
According to the narrative Jesus was named on his sign and the reason for his crucifixion was that he was the King of the Jews. The sign would be a reminder that there is no true King in Israel but Caesar (deters treason against the empire) and the proverbial finger to the Jews (this is what we would do to a real King of Israel) and to Herod.
Arminius wrote:
Therefore, for Christians, there must something very right with being a heretic.
Only if one accepts the premise that Jesus was executed for being a heretic.
Grace and peace to you.
John
Well, John, I am sure there were some people, ultra orthodox Jews and Romans, who regarded Jesus as a heretic, similar to the way Martin Luther was regarded as a heretic by many Roman Catholics of his day.
Birthstone
Posted on: 01/10/2014 10:30
I thought you might remember from the first round with United Future that I'm part of the communications team (not the planning team, but I've put in my 2cents) Aaron also is involved in the comms part.
Geofee - they need people to have these particular discussions at United Future because it lets them stay on top of opinions and trends - we could have it in twelve places, I'm sure. Some Facebook groups are encouraging discussion on their pages, but then that keeps people from bothering with United Future. Don't expect WC conversations like we have here on that forum though. Different purpose.
It is interesting to see people saying 'YES - this was overdue & perfect.' To me, we saw half the debate. The type of evangelism that Evan & Orville presented would appeal to some, and competely turn off others. So when we talk like it is the one & only, and don't expand into the problems with it, we are excluding a lot of people. And I saw evidence of people who think anyone who can't be happy happy joy joy about their FAITH should find another place. What other place? The United Church has been that place for decades, and has a huge presence of people that experiences their passion (thanks Arminius) for the Way in a different light.
Hopefully you'll come share your thoughts at United Future and give it a chance to do its work.
Mendalla
Posted on: 01/10/2014 10:43
chansen wrote:
You've also got some nutbars who can't stop thinking about Gretta and how terrible she is.
Really? In a forum about the future of the church there were people who could only think of rehashing that chestnut?
There's a big chunk of the problem right there. The UCCan is not going to appeal to anyone if all it can do to keep wrestling with internal struggles. It needs to look outward and show a face, some face, to the world.
In terms of evangelism, what is needed is not more flogging of dead horses like "you must be saved" or one true godism but more showing of just how a church can be beneficial and meaningful in the modern world. And arguing about who is and isn't a "heretic" isn't doing that. Gretta has probably done more, and more successful, evangelism than most of the rest of the UCCan. It is too bad that her message doesn't seem to fit with how some folks see the church but she is at least getting it out there and getting some attention. That's evangelism, folks. Getting out the message. Arguing endlessly about whether so and so is preaching heresy or what constitutes essential agreement or how the church courts should be structured send only message to me - find another church.
Mendalla
chansen
Posted on: 01/10/2014 11:04
Mendalla wrote:
chansen wrote:
You've also got some nutbars who can't stop thinking about Gretta and how terrible she is.
Really? In a forum about the future of the church there were people who could only think of rehashing that chestnut?
There's a big chunk of the problem right there. The UCCan is not going to appeal to anyone if all it can do to keep wrestling with internal struggles. It needs to look outward and show a face, some face, to the world.
Honestly. Go to http://www.unitedfuture.ca/live_events and click on "View more comments" after the video. you'll need to click a few times, and it's mostly the same twit (and what do you know, he has a blog!), but it was annoying and bigoted enough that I eventually commented.
In hindsight, I wonder if he was even UCCan. He may have been there to stephenbooth the proceedings.
Mendalla wrote:
In terms of evangelism, what is needed is not more flogging of dead horses like "you must be saved" or one true godism but more showing of just how a church can be beneficial and meaningful in the modern world. And arguing about who is and isn't a "heretic" isn't doing that. Gretta has probably done more, and more successful, evangelism than most of the rest of the UCCan. It is too bad that her message doesn't seem to fit with how some folks see the church but she is at least getting it out there and getting some attention. That's evangelism, folks. Getting out the message. Arguing endlessly about whether so and so is preaching heresy or what constitutes essential agreement or how the church courts should be structured send only message to me - find another church.
When the organization isn't doing well, people need scapegoats. I think Gretta is a convenient scapegoat. The common arguments include the idea that Gretta confuses people about what the UCCan is about, but who walks into a church in Winnipeg and says they would like to stay, but that atheist UCCan minister in Toronto confuses her, so she has to find somewhere where no associated clergy have any skeletons in their closets as serious as disbelief. Maybe these sorts of people should consider Catholicism.
If things were going well, I doubt Gretta would get the same attention. She's a threat to some, because you need a critical mass of believers to perpetuate such an improbable set of beliefs. It's one thing when people like me outside the congregation voice our bewilderment that anyone believes this stuff. Once people on the inside stop believing, that sets off air raid sirens. Never mind the good she does and the wisdom she imparts from multiple sources, she doesn't believe! Burn the heretic!
chansen
Posted on: 01/10/2014 11:39
On the subject of the actual evangelism discussion, what I disliked most about it, was that both panelists were pro-evangelism. Really? With all the baggage that evangelism comes with, no one wanted to carry the torch for "anything but evangelism???"
There are so many different opinions within the UCCan, that I think having discussions where both panelists are on the same side is somewhat disingenuous, and not reflective of the disagreements and conversations being had across the country.
If UCCan'ers want to suddenly be known as the people who always manage to steer conversations to the topic of their faith, they need to be prepared to be invited to fewer parties. On the plus side, you'll get more shoulder room on crowded buses.
I'm obviously the last person to ask about how you grow belief in the unbelievable. Even if I wanted to, I don't think I could. People who can do that could probably sell tofu to the Duck Dynasty crowd.
But what I didn't see mentioned is that that target audience - people my age and younger - have grown up being marketed to. I think most of us have developed massive skepticism of marketing claims. Successful evangelism of naive, credulous people just doesn't happen any more, because this society is not a target-rich environment for these people. You guys are late to the party. If they can be swayed by stories of Jesus, in most cases, that's already happened.
What I'd like to see, is some church do a basic study on evangelism techniques and locations, and report the success rates. That would be hugely interesting to me ('cause I'm strange), but my guess is that for every 1000 people approached, the number of positive outcomes would be less than 10, and far fewer of those would become members. It would be an exercise in spinning your wheels. Maybe I'm wrong.
I still think more targeted recruitment from other denominations is still your best bet. I still think your best selling features are that you're less ridiculous, largely non-criminal, less demanding, and less bigoted than those other denominations are. Oh, and less annoying. Throw that one out the window if you go on an evangelism kick.
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 01/10/2014 11:49
Did you know that when you pull a cover over people totally dead to thought (artifice of Eve that is opposing to rye sol') they call that fabric a pall? The the veil is sometimes rent and some folk are torn apart over emotions and thoughts and keeping them isolated so they wouldn't do anything balanced in floating off like Archimedes ... but one has to wonder about the archetype of mede'n character ... a weird outside persona considering the polity (extremes) encountered in church with a superficial bounce!
If you don't believe in myth and metaphor you'll never unravel that mass ...
What a place to do etudes on scattered minds ... few traits of ecclesia ... they just can't agree under the demands of ascertiveness. Thus stuff really needs to be proded and stirred! Sort of a kin or metaphor of primal stewing ... I see a man in a pot surrounded by black and unobserved persons by the subject ... his behind is too hot to allow him to concentrate on the outsiders! Could make the base of a great cartoon and glue maqon exercise to stick dark and despised info to the minds of the ineffective observers in airy positions ... Moses could give them an Aaron out ... if they understood Classic Laws like aboriginal concepts about action and reaction.
Consider that NA aboriginals signed a treaty with white men to sign over land to the whites ... so the land would no longer own the natives. They thought this incomprehensible that white men could own and contain the land. They didn't ... the indians ran wild and ended dying anyway and the earth still got eM! The treaty was incomprehensable too ... as the aboriginees knew nothing of alien script and foreign intelligence as suggestive information about how things really arn't right. It was a dark time for Shadows crusing about soaking up de light of the situation.
Some people took it as different than the Shadow of Hawks in Flight ... just observing from afar ... like Gabriel in dark attitude ... what the English at the time called dark humour! You wouldn't know this if you didn't see how language has evolved over a few hundred years. It is not cast in stone anymore and books can burn ... leaving an awful stink of people that didn't understand much of it in the beginning and thus the creation of pews where a person could think if the leader would just be silent for a bit. Script is like that preferrable to leaders who explain truths ... but some digging and duggans/dukeins are to be expected as the truth is knocked about. Authorities just won't have it out ... why the Secret Service exists ... allowing for quiting of unacceptable thoughts and f(rogue) lights like JeZues ... "i" inside? It kahn erupt ...
Now in the context of darkness and the Shadow where does an Eve Angel come in ... like Florence Night in Gale; always disturbing the clients rest; like f(rogues) and warts? Some people feel that being dead to mind is relief ... they haven't met Ur yet!
Now there are a rare few that seem to encourage rest and will do things to blow your mind ... religious intercourse? That could leave the well-Jared smoking and over fired! Isn't chared word made often of soot and pall of past things fun to mess with? You just don't know what you'll find in that inert portion of thought once into it ... sort of like swimming about in an alien mind ... to use a foreign metaphor that few would understand ... as words are avoided things! Sort of a black plague to mythical emotions as they gybe about ... Egyptian Myth of the other kind ... St. Elled thoughts about an X is?
When you get old and wiser, you sit in silence and think darkly on paper ... then the others will not be disturbed until much later ... thus the expression hermeneutic ... that is like apostolic when the produce of the tree begins to speak through a stinking old paper containing classic chit about the aboriginal ignorance of men in white sway'n above the pews!
Arminius
Posted on: 01/10/2014 12:04
If heresy is defined as "the support of a secessionist sect or movement," then any reformer, renewer or transformer of faith can be regarded as a secessionist or heretic by the fundamentalist or traditionalist wing of his faith, even if he does not plan to secede. Mere divergence from the established norm is enough. That's why many transformers, reformers or renewers ended up founding new denominations, sects or religions. And some renewers were prosecuted, persecuted or even executed by the conservative wing of their faith.
To me, Jesus was a renewer of the Judaic faith. And he meant renewal of faith to be an ongoing process, much like Martin Luther meant reformation to be a continuous process. "Re-claiming evangelism" sounds like a step back into the fundamentalism and absolutism of a dark and distant past. I think we need renewal of faith, not a return to fundamentalism.
From the integral perspective, each stage in the progression of culture builds on the previous stage: development through envelopment. Progressives should not make the mistake of invalidating past stages, and people implicated in past stages should not make the mistake of assuming that progressives necessarily want to invalidate them. Every stage on the spiral of progress is a necessary stage. The mistake is to remain stuck on one stage, and regard it as absolutely valid. This is what prevents us from moving forward and upward on the spiral.
To attain ever-higher levels of enlightenment should be our goal.
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 01/10/2014 12:23
Would this require flexible knowledge that isn't so rigid and stoic?
Like a cool drink to quench the flames! The pious would certainly go against such alien po'eLs ... you know how that fear and despise anything different ...
Great stuff to play with like psyche and her materials of construct ... the pious didn't like those words either ... stuff they don't yet know ... after all these years of chloe that'd be yods and ends in time ... some folds and ridges to be expected as the whole thing is disturbed! Just look about ...
You know it has to look funny when safely far away from it ... but many won't let go ... then maybe it isn't their time ... there tole cooky whines are not mellowed enough ... still too crumby!
Mendalla
Posted on: 01/10/2014 13:18
This is going way off topic, but I want to answer Arm's thoughts on heresy a bit.
Thing is, there is no absolute definition of "heretic". It is always relative to one's position in and on one's faith. A "heretic" is someone who rejects the defined beliefs of an organized faith, at least in the eyes of those who profess to lead and uphold that organized faith. To some of the Jews of Jesus' time (esp. the scribes and Pharisees if we believe the gospels), he might indeed have appeared to be a heretic. To others, he was likely seen as a reformer or prophet who was steering back to the right path, which would make the scribes and Pharisees the heretics. Ditto on Luther. Ditto on Gretta Vosper, though she hardly deserves to be named in that august company at this point. Maybe down the road.
UU'ism is a faith that, from some perspectives, was born in heresy. Unitarianism was formed by Christians who rejected the Trinity and some related ideas around Jesus' divinity; Universalism by Christians who rejected both Calvinist notions of Limited Atonement and works-based salvation (they basically held salvation is through unmerited Grace that is granted universally). And, yet, they likely did not see themselves as heretics but as true followers of Christ nor did they likely expect that their successors would ultimately waltz right out of Christianity and redefine both Unitarianism and Universalism in non-Christian ways. The first Unitarians and Universalists might well see my generation of UUs as the heretics, while we actually revere them for being heretics and, in doing so, creating a new faith.
In short, heresy is a funny thing because the same idea can make the same person a heroic reformer to some and a villainous "heretic" to others (cf. Martin Luther)
Mendalla
Arminius
Posted on: 01/10/2014 14:02
Yes, Mendalla, there is no absolute definition for "heretic".
When I was growing up as a Lutheran in predominantly and deeply Catholic Bavaria, the village priest told my Catholic schoolmates and friends that Martin Luther was a criminal. Well, for the Roman Catholic Church of Luther's day, he was. The "good" village priest did not think of how this made me feel.
Some people's freedom fighters are other people's terrorists, much like some people's heretics are someone else's reformers.
I am sure I appear heretical to some Christians. Fortunately for me, and them, modern day Christians no longer burn their heretics at the stake. They just roast them in good clean fun.
This is not really going way off topic. Evangelical Christians, in the North American sense of the word, are into proselytising their own faith, and judging, labelling, damning and condemning others. I don't think that we, the United Church of Canada, should give the impression that we are moving in this direction.
AaronMcGallegos
Posted on: 01/10/2014 17:38
The person who posted the Billy Graham video was Stephen Booth.
Evan Smith used to be active here on WonderCafe fairly often, mostly in the blog section.
The chat that went along with the live video was only part of the discussion. It's ongoing at UnitedFuture.ca
Alex
Posted on: 01/10/2014 18:23
I hope you have discovered a way to block him, If not than ban on him spamming the next United Future event in an attempt to make it unmanagabe.
Between WC, facebook and this you also have a good chance with an harrassment complaint to the RCMP.
Alex
Posted on: 01/10/2014 18:25
So besides Chansen, did anyone learn anything that they will apply to their church or themselves?
Or was it just a good disscussion that they enjoyed?
Aldo
Posted on: 01/10/2014 19:41
Hi
It seems to me that in some our discussions we have entwined evangelism and the object of the evangelising.
In so far as I am here writing and discussing... I am evangelising. Perhaps not the best or most persuasive ... but I can only grasp as far as I can reach. Should the united Church evangelise and if so how?
As for the object of the evangelising... I think I suggested before that what faith is depends on what the object of faith is. Perhaps, we need to clarify what the object of the evangelising out to be...
Food for thought from W.B. Yeats...
THE SECOND COMING
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Perhaps modern evangelising in all is diverse splendour...
stardust
Posted on: 01/10/2014 22:21
Aaron
Hi....Happy New Year to you and yours.
I read some of the discussions. They are fine and there was a good audience, 420 people at one time.
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 01/11/2014 10:25
In the light of non-determinate heresy ... does this open the door to abstract imagination ... the larger portion of the imaginary mind that is proposed to be a myth?
If you do not encompass the myth ... how would you know anything little more everything? Such enigmas baffled Romans and great powers ... judah'ns ... who have been known to collapse in great humour Jack! This was once known as Whack a Molei (A'postolic Hammering once they became totally aware/ an alternate state) that followed Jack in the box/boches and that thought was hammered out in pure irony ...austinetic ... ferritic as allowed! Strange as Potiferrous ... in a code so the noble wouldn't know the common phoqah a'thinking ... population of the soul as eM of the other's ID din Eire currancy of Joey? Isn't that an essence of Joyce ... like beam of laughter in the mad co-enne's "I"?
Don't sweat the big stuff ... just bug eM subtle E with words they don't understand! It is a mental challenge. I was told I needed to be challenged for my far out comments ... they din't know my mental challenge was real: "attempting to figure out the insanity and in humane nature of hue mons". Poe'M Isis ole ... but don't for god's ache mention it! It'll be a pain to the (w)hole thing ... if you can catch my drift ...
Aldo
Posted on: 01/11/2014 11:35
myth is balance by the direct experience of existing...
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 01/11/2014 11:42
A psychic function or just dis taste full work?
chansen
Posted on: 01/11/2014 11:51
stardust wrote:
Aaron
Hi....Happy New Year to you and yours.
I read some of the discussions. They are fine and there was a good audience, 420 people at one time.
It was funny, though. Once we hit 420, everybody declared they had the munchies and left.
Aldo
Posted on: 01/11/2014 12:25
dis-tasteful work of course.... its the outcome not the process
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 01/12/2014 08:34
Like Psalm 76:11 ... life is not all that simple when you live in the dimension of liars ... then just to make matters worse the authorities (lyons?) say just don't reason (think?) about it and do what they say and the aesthetic complexity is corrupted by simplicity ... or so they expected!
This may be received subtly by some so the simple can glow ... re-defining the indefinable ... indefagable Molly Brown in Ochre (a yellow shade/Shadow)? She was rather irrational in a world of lie ... and thus thought was prostituted ... and the soul sold off for desires ... it's biblical according to Thomas a Kempis:
We could be well on the way
To perfection if we could weed out
One vice from ourselves, each year!
This is a slow love or a sloe jinn in other traditions where they weren't in such a rush for intellectual perfection without the process. Creation of new learning could be made phun with a few literary screw ups and thus man became the epi Tomé of a Jack Doffed expression of god's dark side ... in satyr an allegory was never the same! Even simple satyrs are not see by those that go by the book without a sense of depth.
In the end what's left? Nothing! Some say this is what we started with ... not a clue! The balance must be intuited but real men confuse thought, feeling, sensation and intuition ... thus creating the chaos of psychic profiling for those that reserve andd save the soul for later! There remans a sense of rapture as a remnant ... in a mire pew! This is a degrading curve or depeted paradigm ... like Ur Anius, or Ura Niam as it degrades through gold to lead! Thus the Golden Ass metaphor sloes ...
Where does reason go when overwhelmed ... life's enigma! This sort of thing burns some people up and some there's nothing left but roasted ashes--- that Chichester Nun ... if there's Fire in the Ashes ... you never know where the burn will erupt! Explains the dark marks on the pagebuoy! Where the thought blew right through ... in pas in ...
In CERN they slam gold particlesto gether with protoneic material to see if they can make a better Black Hole ... a Shadow that processe old material? The Dark Star Eris Sis ... as just word fude for the simple brain! If you don't believe just look about us in the near volumes ... intellectual perfection has to be out there.
It appears intellect is moving all about avoiding the emotions creating a quantum state of chaos ... the cittii or SETI of God ... fey route or just flighty? Ur essence is just not combative ... primarily opposite to mankind and thus we don't see ID! It is underlying statement, subtle truth ... something I can't know for sure here due to the distractions ... advocates that make you think like the devil if you're so inclined ... double helix? Close to Caduces ... a pair of edges!
Alas powers remain that don't believe in anything larger than them ... how god contained corruption ... something you have to pas thro' to believe as a mire mote in space ... that's the dirt, what some call mudder earth!!
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 01/12/2014 08:37
I remain Ur's, out-of-here, consiider me the thoughts you never had ...
Does that give you a rush, or just roué's ... Rue St Gabriel?
WB
Birthstone
Posted on: 01/14/2014 12:50
the comment about the marketing wariness turning people off evangelism is spot-on. I want to run the other way when ads get like that in any setting, but most often when it is about church. A doctrine-lite, safe & open Invitiation to pondering life, the universe & everything has been effective in my view, and opens room up for wondering why is the sky blue, or did Jesus really exist with more people than those who are already eager for the conversation. If people are open to it, dive in, if they aren't yet, then we haven't already sent them running away.
I wish the recent slate of Vosper-bashing would just stop already - it is getting nasty and hurtful in a way that is very unbecoming of ministers. I'm all for speaking out on principle, but it is important to remember we're all supposed to be encouraging respect and freedom to speak. Some are acting like the progressive movement is Satan sneaking in and surprising their perfect church. I think the Progressive Christianity movement has a strong support base, though it seems VERY quiet lately. I wade in with my thoughts and get same old responses, as if everyone forgot that this was pretty mainstream UCC stuff for a long time (atheism aside).
crazyheart
Posted on: 01/14/2014 13:12
I notice, Birthstone that you said "unbecoming of ministers". I noticed that most of the posters are ministry personnel. I think Lay people feel overwhelmed and don't post and eventually fade away. I feel that WC is more welcoming of all people.
Dcn. Jae
Posted on: 01/15/2014 07:34
As someone from the evangelical tradition of Christianity, I see no problem with the way in which evangelism has long been done.
Teach people that they're on the highway to Hell, and then share with them that they can go to Heaven instead if they will accept Jesus into their heart.
Turn or burn, if you will.
The best ways to bring them this Good News are preaching at them from the street corners as they go about their daily routine, handing tracts to them as they're about to board the morning train, and confronting them as they're eating their lunch at shopping malls, university campuses, and the like.
People need to hear the Message, whether they're open to it or not.
Kimmio
Posted on: 01/15/2014 07:57
Lol! Okay, you're putting us on, Jae. That post could go in the Onion. ;)
Comments
chansen
Posted on: 01/09/2014 14:37
I only caught the last couple of minutes, but it's clear you still have a handful of people in the UCCan who see nothing wrong with what people think of when they think evangelism. Clearly, the reason people haven't been coming is they just haven't heard enough about Jesus yet. Yeah, that'll work.
You've also got some nutbars who can't stop thinking about Gretta and how terrible she is. I only commented at the end, and said there was nothing wrong with being a heretic. Had a whole bunch of people who don't even know me agreeing. That was hlarious. Thanks to them.
Arminius
Posted on: 01/09/2014 14:45
Hi chansen:
Jesus, the figurehead of Christianity, was executed for being a heretic. Therefore, for Christians, there must something very right with being a heretic.
chansen
Posted on: 01/09/2014 14:52
Yeah, I wasn't expecting the immediate approval. I would also say that it is perfectly fine to be a blasphemer. Ran out of time.
Arminius
Posted on: 01/09/2014 14:54
Orville's definition of evangelism was: "Passionately sharing our faith without coercion."
"Passion without coercion," I like that.
chansen
Posted on: 01/09/2014 14:57
Then what do you do with the coercive verses?
revjohn
Posted on: 01/09/2014 15:28
Hi Arminius,
Jesus, the figurehead of Christianity, was executed for being a heretic.
Ummmmm. No. Jesus wasn't.
The Jewish offence he was accused of was blasphemy. In a free Israel such a charge was punishable by law and would have likely resulted in his being stoned to death.
Israel was not "free" at the time it was an occupied province of the Roman Empire. Crucifixion was the method of execution of the Roman Empire and they did not find Jesus to be a heretic either.
It was typical for the criminal so crucified to be identified by a sign stating the crime. Names were not posted because crucifixion was meant to strip you of your identity. So, ordinarily you would wander past a cross, see and individual on it and reading the sign you would note that it was a thief or murderer or traitor.
According to the narrative Jesus was named on his sign and the reason for his crucifixion was that he was the King of the Jews. The sign would be a reminder that there is no true King in Israel but Caesar (deters treason against the empire) and the proverbial finger to the Jews (this is what we would do to a real King of Israel) and to Herod.
Therefore, for Christians, there must something very right with being a heretic.
Only if one accepts the premise that Jesus was executed for being a heretic.
Grace and peace to you.
John
Birthstone
Posted on: 01/09/2014 17:12
It didn't address what about evangelism creeps people out. And I'm not left with a confidence about a universal United Church direction on evangelism - certainly, I would not be comfy in a place that focuses on a "I love Jesus" message.
I do think that some good questions have been posted on United Future that might get at more of this. I hope some ideas on more progressive, or at least liberal evangelism will rise out of the discussion. The Way of Jesus/Christ offers justice and hope and direction when we break down the barriers that divide us. Whether I 'love' him or not, whether I am saved, or solely devoted, or stuck with deep questions, doesn't change that, and so it opens doors to others who aren't so sure or come from other walks of life or other faiths. Evangelism might be a way to promote that Way so people can discover it through word & action, and maybe they'll come to admire, & be open to knowing the Spirit that Christians see as its source. Mouthful - maybe that is why we don't evangelize well. "I
Jesus" is easier.
Aldo
Posted on: 01/09/2014 17:46
well, well well...
now I figured discussing is evangelizing...
; )
stardust
Posted on: 01/09/2014 18:11
According to some of the chat comments I wish that some of the participants ( those who posted their thanks after the event) might have heard about the WonderCafe and wandered in to visit us, to explore the topic further and to give their suggestions and opinions. I'm not saying my attitude is proper but I sometimes feel that the WC gets kicked in the teeth by the UC....or GC....or whatever!
Quotes from the United Future forum to illustrate my point about how hungry people are for discussion:
I have been waiting for this kind of conversation a long time in the ucc-- a great beginning (again)
2 minutes ago
QUESTION There have been a lot of good comments and questions on the chat. Can you publish them on the website? This will be a good learning tool. tks
8 minutes ago
Great reminders! Thank you. Journeying alongside the congregation in order to impart the joy of serving God without the fears of being 'religious' might be a way forward for us! Maintaining a positive attitude in the midst of complaints and critici... See More
18 minutes ago
What a terrific conversation. How long have I been waiting to hear the UCC discuss aloud the Good News as opposed to being almost afraid to utter it. We do it in our outreach everyday and in everyway except in proclaiming aloud WHY we do it. We do it... See More
20 minutes ago
I have been waiting for this kind of conversation a long time in the ucc-- a great beginning (again)
25 minutes ago
what happens next?
25 minutes ago
Where do we go from here?
26 minutes ago
Wonderful conversation Orville and Evan! Sending my love to you! Keep the faith!
26 minutes ago
orville and Evan - thanks so much for the wise and wonderful words
29 minutes ago
Thank you so much, Evan and Orville and all the people commenting. Rich conversation! God bless!
29 minutes ago
i stumbled into serving a UCC congregation part time and have sometimes wondered... but a very encouraging session today with you. thank you and God bless you
30 minutes ago
this was awesome thanks Evan and Orville!!!
QUESTION will a recording of this be available later?
34 minutes ago
Thanks Orville, Evan. Great discussion.
34 minutes ago
I must say I have enjoyed this....much to think about.
Thanks! We're all one body and there is so much to learn from one another! Looking forward to more collaboration in the future!
36 minutes ago
What a great forum today! We need more, more, more of this!
37 minutes ago
I could listen to this all day! Preach preachers!
What a terrific conversation. How long have I been waiting to hear the UCC discuss aloud the Good News as opposed to being almost afraid to utter it. We do it in our outreach everyday and in everyway except in proclaiming aloud WHY we do it. We do it to follow the simple commandment left to us by Jesus Christ, "Love God and Love your neighbour".
20 minutes ago
i stumbled into serving a UCC congregation part time and have sometimes wondered... but a very encouraging session today with you. thank you and God bless you
40 minutes ago
Thank you so much, Evan and Orville and all the people commenting. Rich conversation! God bless!
42 minutes ago
stardust
Posted on: 01/09/2014 18:23
Note:
There were some people who do participate on the WC. I only recognized a few names, George F, Nora Sanders, and Chansen.
I would appreciate future sessions much more if the hosts would answer the public's questions and talk much less amongst themselves, also if they were given more time.
I have watched a few webinars that I felt were better organized and more friendly towards the public who asked questions.
@Birthstone : Your comment here is the best, it has some meat and potatoes in it. Sorry I'm rather tongue tied or burned out.................:(...I like to read but I don't often post.
stardust
Posted on: 01/09/2014 19:35
Oops...sorry, I just checked the United Vision website again. It appears I had missed the forum aspect of it where questions are answered or comments are discussed. The forum is listed on the left side of the web page titled Discuss and Share. Replies are called "Reactions". There are a few reactions and some past Dec. entries as well.
chansen
Posted on: 01/09/2014 19:43
Justin spent the few minutes I was on, ranting about Gretta and linking blogs about how awful the UCCan is. I think most people just wanted him to shut up.
GeoFee
Posted on: 01/09/2014 20:18
Hello folk...
This was my second try. Found the presentation just fine. Could have found the same information and insights with a brief Google search. Input thread impossible to consider conversation. Overall? A room with three persons having a conversation and the remainder passive or texting along a variety of thought streams.
I asked that some member of United Future post in the Cafe, so that the conversation could be given a bit of depth. Hope to see something initiated here by the United Future folk.
George
Jobam
Posted on: 01/09/2014 23:22
GeoFee "Could have found the same information and insights with a brief Google search." Could this not be said for most UCC sermons/services?
In my humble opinion, we discuss to much, not enough action.
chansen
Posted on: 01/09/2014 23:57
This was my second try. Found the presentation just fine. Could have found the same information and insights with a brief Google search. Input thread impossible to consider conversation. Overall? A room with three persons having a conversation and the remainder passive or texting along a variety of thought streams.
You're right. It reminded me of irc chat, that awful short text chatting medium that predated Twitter and was impossible to understand, and useless unless you were a teenager or a pedophile. By the time you write a thoughtful response to someone, nobody else cares, because there have been 20 entries since then, most of them mind-numbing.
They keep coming up with stuff like Facebook and webinars and other ways to interact online, but nothing beats a simple forum.
I feel like I should be yelling at kids to get off my lawn now.
Alex
Posted on: 01/10/2014 00:31
Did anyone learn something new that could be applied to their church or themselves?
stardust
Posted on: 01/10/2014 00:31
GeoFee
The United Future folk will be along any minute now.
stardust
Posted on: 01/10/2014 00:44
Alex
Seriously the UC wants to evangelize but not in the spirit or theology of the TV evangelists. The trick is to discover a different method. Someone posted a video of Billy Graham but I don't think that's going to cut it......:(
Do you have any ideas?
stardust
Posted on: 01/10/2014 01:33
I found the secret recipe in evangelizing ....its jokes.....jokes by the dozen. Consider Joel Osteen's mega church. He has some terrific opening lines.
Quote:
chansen
Posted on: 01/10/2014 02:01
Please tell me you're joking.
No, really.
stardust
Posted on: 01/10/2014 02:05
LOL @Chansen...................!!!!!
chansen
Posted on: 01/10/2014 02:27
Sorry, not trying to be funny. Unlike Joel, who just isn't.
Alex
Posted on: 01/10/2014 02:59
Do you have any ideas?
I just think that we need to be more accessible, (disabled, working people, the young, etc) and to stop discriminating against whole classes of people for what ever reason. Also evry church should be based in a community, or even better a group of communities. CHurches that do not want to include many different kinds of people, especially those living in the local neighbourhood have a right to exist in the UCC., but they should not be allowed to call themselves churches, or christian, or United.
Evengelism without accessible is like telling people to do as we say, but to ignore that the churches do not believe the good news, nor would we do what it calls for ourselves.
Arminius
Posted on: 01/10/2014 10:08
Yes, birthstone, the word "evangelism" creeps people out because it has been usurped and abused by a small albeit very vocal fundamentalist, literalist, and absolutist Christian Right.
If, as Orville James said at the end of the conversation, evangelism is "passionately sharing our faith without coercion," then why not name it "passion"? Jesus was passionate about compassion, and so are most of us modern day UCCers. The passion of Jesus was compassion. So why not "put passion back into compassion" rather than "re-claiming evangelism"?
COMPASSION?
Arminius
Posted on: 01/10/2014 09:55
Hi Arminius,
Jesus, the figurehead of Christianity, was executed for being a heretic.
Ummmmm. No. Jesus wasn't.
The Jewish offence he was accused of was blasphemy. In a free Israel such a charge was punishable by law and would have likely resulted in his being stoned to death.
Israel was not "free" at the time it was an occupied province of the Roman Empire. Crucifixion was the method of execution of the Roman Empire and they did not find Jesus to be a heretic either.
It was typical for the criminal so crucified to be identified by a sign stating the crime. Names were not posted because crucifixion was meant to strip you of your identity. So, ordinarily you would wander past a cross, see and individual on it and reading the sign you would note that it was a thief or murderer or traitor.
According to the narrative Jesus was named on his sign and the reason for his crucifixion was that he was the King of the Jews. The sign would be a reminder that there is no true King in Israel but Caesar (deters treason against the empire) and the proverbial finger to the Jews (this is what we would do to a real King of Israel) and to Herod.
Therefore, for Christians, there must something very right with being a heretic.
Only if one accepts the premise that Jesus was executed for being a heretic.
Grace and peace to you.
John
Well, John, I am sure there were some people, ultra orthodox Jews and Romans, who regarded Jesus as a heretic, similar to the way Martin Luther was regarded as a heretic by many Roman Catholics of his day.
Birthstone
Posted on: 01/10/2014 10:30
I thought you might remember from the first round with United Future that I'm part of the communications team (not the planning team, but I've put in my 2cents) Aaron also is involved in the comms part.
Geofee - they need people to have these particular discussions at United Future because it lets them stay on top of opinions and trends - we could have it in twelve places, I'm sure. Some Facebook groups are encouraging discussion on their pages, but then that keeps people from bothering with United Future. Don't expect WC conversations like we have here on that forum though. Different purpose.
It is interesting to see people saying 'YES - this was overdue & perfect.' To me, we saw half the debate. The type of evangelism that Evan & Orville presented would appeal to some, and competely turn off others. So when we talk like it is the one & only, and don't expand into the problems with it, we are excluding a lot of people. And I saw evidence of people who think anyone who can't be happy happy joy joy about their FAITH should find another place. What other place? The United Church has been that place for decades, and has a huge presence of people that experiences their passion (thanks Arminius) for the Way in a different light.
Hopefully you'll come share your thoughts at United Future and give it a chance to do its work.
Mendalla
Posted on: 01/10/2014 10:43
You've also got some nutbars who can't stop thinking about Gretta and how terrible she is.
Really? In a forum about the future of the church there were people who could only think of rehashing that chestnut?
There's a big chunk of the problem right there. The UCCan is not going to appeal to anyone if all it can do to keep wrestling with internal struggles. It needs to look outward and show a face, some face, to the world.
In terms of evangelism, what is needed is not more flogging of dead horses like "you must be saved" or one true godism but more showing of just how a church can be beneficial and meaningful in the modern world. And arguing about who is and isn't a "heretic" isn't doing that. Gretta has probably done more, and more successful, evangelism than most of the rest of the UCCan. It is too bad that her message doesn't seem to fit with how some folks see the church but she is at least getting it out there and getting some attention. That's evangelism, folks. Getting out the message. Arguing endlessly about whether so and so is preaching heresy or what constitutes essential agreement or how the church courts should be structured send only message to me - find another church.
Mendalla
chansen
Posted on: 01/10/2014 11:04
You've also got some nutbars who can't stop thinking about Gretta and how terrible she is.
Really? In a forum about the future of the church there were people who could only think of rehashing that chestnut?
There's a big chunk of the problem right there. The UCCan is not going to appeal to anyone if all it can do to keep wrestling with internal struggles. It needs to look outward and show a face, some face, to the world.
Honestly. Go to http://www.unitedfuture.ca/live_events and click on "View more comments" after the video. you'll need to click a few times, and it's mostly the same twit (and what do you know, he has a blog!), but it was annoying and bigoted enough that I eventually commented.
In hindsight, I wonder if he was even UCCan. He may have been there to stephenbooth the proceedings.
In terms of evangelism, what is needed is not more flogging of dead horses like "you must be saved" or one true godism but more showing of just how a church can be beneficial and meaningful in the modern world. And arguing about who is and isn't a "heretic" isn't doing that. Gretta has probably done more, and more successful, evangelism than most of the rest of the UCCan. It is too bad that her message doesn't seem to fit with how some folks see the church but she is at least getting it out there and getting some attention. That's evangelism, folks. Getting out the message. Arguing endlessly about whether so and so is preaching heresy or what constitutes essential agreement or how the church courts should be structured send only message to me - find another church.
When the organization isn't doing well, people need scapegoats. I think Gretta is a convenient scapegoat. The common arguments include the idea that Gretta confuses people about what the UCCan is about, but who walks into a church in Winnipeg and says they would like to stay, but that atheist UCCan minister in Toronto confuses her, so she has to find somewhere where no associated clergy have any skeletons in their closets as serious as disbelief. Maybe these sorts of people should consider Catholicism.
If things were going well, I doubt Gretta would get the same attention. She's a threat to some, because you need a critical mass of believers to perpetuate such an improbable set of beliefs. It's one thing when people like me outside the congregation voice our bewilderment that anyone believes this stuff. Once people on the inside stop believing, that sets off air raid sirens. Never mind the good she does and the wisdom she imparts from multiple sources, she doesn't believe! Burn the heretic!
chansen
Posted on: 01/10/2014 11:39
On the subject of the actual evangelism discussion, what I disliked most about it, was that both panelists were pro-evangelism. Really? With all the baggage that evangelism comes with, no one wanted to carry the torch for "anything but evangelism???"
There are so many different opinions within the UCCan, that I think having discussions where both panelists are on the same side is somewhat disingenuous, and not reflective of the disagreements and conversations being had across the country.
If UCCan'ers want to suddenly be known as the people who always manage to steer conversations to the topic of their faith, they need to be prepared to be invited to fewer parties. On the plus side, you'll get more shoulder room on crowded buses.
I'm obviously the last person to ask about how you grow belief in the unbelievable. Even if I wanted to, I don't think I could. People who can do that could probably sell tofu to the Duck Dynasty crowd.
But what I didn't see mentioned is that that target audience - people my age and younger - have grown up being marketed to. I think most of us have developed massive skepticism of marketing claims. Successful evangelism of naive, credulous people just doesn't happen any more, because this society is not a target-rich environment for these people. You guys are late to the party. If they can be swayed by stories of Jesus, in most cases, that's already happened.
What I'd like to see, is some church do a basic study on evangelism techniques and locations, and report the success rates. That would be hugely interesting to me ('cause I'm strange), but my guess is that for every 1000 people approached, the number of positive outcomes would be less than 10, and far fewer of those would become members. It would be an exercise in spinning your wheels. Maybe I'm wrong.
I still think more targeted recruitment from other denominations is still your best bet. I still think your best selling features are that you're less ridiculous, largely non-criminal, less demanding, and less bigoted than those other denominations are. Oh, and less annoying. Throw that one out the window if you go on an evangelism kick.
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 01/10/2014 11:49
Did you know that when you pull a cover over people totally dead to thought (artifice of Eve that is opposing to rye sol') they call that fabric a pall? The the veil is sometimes rent and some folk are torn apart over emotions and thoughts and keeping them isolated so they wouldn't do anything balanced in floating off like Archimedes ... but one has to wonder about the archetype of mede'n character ... a weird outside persona considering the polity (extremes) encountered in church with a superficial bounce!
If you don't believe in myth and metaphor you'll never unravel that mass ...
What a place to do etudes on scattered minds ... few traits of ecclesia ... they just can't agree under the demands of ascertiveness. Thus stuff really needs to be proded and stirred! Sort of a kin or metaphor of primal stewing ... I see a man in a pot surrounded by black and unobserved persons by the subject ... his behind is too hot to allow him to concentrate on the outsiders! Could make the base of a great cartoon and glue maqon exercise to stick dark and despised info to the minds of the ineffective observers in airy positions ... Moses could give them an Aaron out ... if they understood Classic Laws like aboriginal concepts about action and reaction.
Consider that NA aboriginals signed a treaty with white men to sign over land to the whites ... so the land would no longer own the natives. They thought this incomprehensible that white men could own and contain the land. They didn't ... the indians ran wild and ended dying anyway and the earth still got eM! The treaty was incomprehensable too ... as the aboriginees knew nothing of alien script and foreign intelligence as suggestive information about how things really arn't right. It was a dark time for Shadows crusing about soaking up de light of the situation.
Some people took it as different than the Shadow of Hawks in Flight ... just observing from afar ... like Gabriel in dark attitude ... what the English at the time called dark humour! You wouldn't know this if you didn't see how language has evolved over a few hundred years. It is not cast in stone anymore and books can burn ... leaving an awful stink of people that didn't understand much of it in the beginning and thus the creation of pews where a person could think if the leader would just be silent for a bit. Script is like that preferrable to leaders who explain truths ... but some digging and duggans/dukeins are to be expected as the truth is knocked about. Authorities just won't have it out ... why the Secret Service exists ... allowing for quiting of unacceptable thoughts and f(rogue) lights like JeZues ... "i" inside? It kahn erupt ...
Now in the context of darkness and the Shadow where does an Eve Angel come in ... like Florence Night in Gale; always disturbing the clients rest; like f(rogues) and warts? Some people feel that being dead to mind is relief ... they haven't met Ur yet!
Now there are a rare few that seem to encourage rest and will do things to blow your mind ... religious intercourse? That could leave the well-Jared smoking and over fired! Isn't chared word made often of soot and pall of past things fun to mess with? You just don't know what you'll find in that inert portion of thought once into it ... sort of like swimming about in an alien mind ... to use a foreign metaphor that few would understand ... as words are avoided things! Sort of a black plague to mythical emotions as they gybe about ... Egyptian Myth of the other kind ... St. Elled thoughts about an X is?
When you get old and wiser, you sit in silence and think darkly on paper ... then the others will not be disturbed until much later ... thus the expression hermeneutic ... that is like apostolic when the produce of the tree begins to speak through a stinking old paper containing classic chit about the aboriginal ignorance of men in white sway'n above the pews!
Arminius
Posted on: 01/10/2014 12:04
If heresy is defined as "the support of a secessionist sect or movement," then any reformer, renewer or transformer of faith can be regarded as a secessionist or heretic by the fundamentalist or traditionalist wing of his faith, even if he does not plan to secede. Mere divergence from the established norm is enough. That's why many transformers, reformers or renewers ended up founding new denominations, sects or religions. And some renewers were prosecuted, persecuted or even executed by the conservative wing of their faith.
To me, Jesus was a renewer of the Judaic faith. And he meant renewal of faith to be an ongoing process, much like Martin Luther meant reformation to be a continuous process. "Re-claiming evangelism" sounds like a step back into the fundamentalism and absolutism of a dark and distant past. I think we need renewal of faith, not a return to fundamentalism.
From the integral perspective, each stage in the progression of culture builds on the previous stage: development through envelopment. Progressives should not make the mistake of invalidating past stages, and people implicated in past stages should not make the mistake of assuming that progressives necessarily want to invalidate them. Every stage on the spiral of progress is a necessary stage. The mistake is to remain stuck on one stage, and regard it as absolutely valid. This is what prevents us from moving forward and upward on the spiral.
To attain ever-higher levels of enlightenment should be our goal.
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 01/10/2014 12:23
Would this require flexible knowledge that isn't so rigid and stoic?
Like a cool drink to quench the flames! The pious would certainly go against such alien po'eLs ... you know how that fear and despise anything different ...
Great stuff to play with like psyche and her materials of construct ... the pious didn't like those words either ... stuff they don't yet know ... after all these years of chloe that'd be yods and ends in time ... some folds and ridges to be expected as the whole thing is disturbed! Just look about ...
You know it has to look funny when safely far away from it ... but many won't let go ... then maybe it isn't their time ... there tole cooky whines are not mellowed enough ... still too crumby!
Mendalla
Posted on: 01/10/2014 13:18
This is going way off topic, but I want to answer Arm's thoughts on heresy a bit.
Thing is, there is no absolute definition of "heretic". It is always relative to one's position in and on one's faith. A "heretic" is someone who rejects the defined beliefs of an organized faith, at least in the eyes of those who profess to lead and uphold that organized faith. To some of the Jews of Jesus' time (esp. the scribes and Pharisees if we believe the gospels), he might indeed have appeared to be a heretic. To others, he was likely seen as a reformer or prophet who was steering back to the right path, which would make the scribes and Pharisees the heretics. Ditto on Luther. Ditto on Gretta Vosper, though she hardly deserves to be named in that august company at this point. Maybe down the road.
UU'ism is a faith that, from some perspectives, was born in heresy. Unitarianism was formed by Christians who rejected the Trinity and some related ideas around Jesus' divinity; Universalism by Christians who rejected both Calvinist notions of Limited Atonement and works-based salvation (they basically held salvation is through unmerited Grace that is granted universally). And, yet, they likely did not see themselves as heretics but as true followers of Christ nor did they likely expect that their successors would ultimately waltz right out of Christianity and redefine both Unitarianism and Universalism in non-Christian ways. The first Unitarians and Universalists might well see my generation of UUs as the heretics, while we actually revere them for being heretics and, in doing so, creating a new faith.
In short, heresy is a funny thing because the same idea can make the same person a heroic reformer to some and a villainous "heretic" to others (cf. Martin Luther)
Mendalla
Arminius
Posted on: 01/10/2014 14:02
Yes, Mendalla, there is no absolute definition for "heretic".
When I was growing up as a Lutheran in predominantly and deeply Catholic Bavaria, the village priest told my Catholic schoolmates and friends that Martin Luther was a criminal. Well, for the Roman Catholic Church of Luther's day, he was. The "good" village priest did not think of how this made me feel.
Some people's freedom fighters are other people's terrorists, much like some people's heretics are someone else's reformers.
I am sure I appear heretical to some Christians. Fortunately for me, and them, modern day Christians no longer burn their heretics at the stake. They just roast them in good clean fun.
This is not really going way off topic. Evangelical Christians, in the North American sense of the word, are into proselytising their own faith, and judging, labelling, damning and condemning others. I don't think that we, the United Church of Canada, should give the impression that we are moving in this direction.
AaronMcGallegos
Posted on: 01/10/2014 17:38
The person who posted the Billy Graham video was Stephen Booth.
Evan Smith used to be active here on WonderCafe fairly often, mostly in the blog section.
The chat that went along with the live video was only part of the discussion. It's ongoing at UnitedFuture.ca
Alex
Posted on: 01/10/2014 18:23
I hope you have discovered a way to block him, If not than ban on him spamming the next United Future event in an attempt to make it unmanagabe.
Between WC, facebook and this you also have a good chance with an harrassment complaint to the RCMP.
Alex
Posted on: 01/10/2014 18:25
So besides Chansen, did anyone learn anything that they will apply to their church or themselves?
Or was it just a good disscussion that they enjoyed?
Aldo
Posted on: 01/10/2014 19:41
Hi
It seems to me that in some our discussions we have entwined evangelism and the object of the evangelising.
In so far as I am here writing and discussing... I am evangelising. Perhaps not the best or most persuasive ... but I can only grasp as far as I can reach. Should the united Church evangelise and if so how?
As for the object of the evangelising... I think I suggested before that what faith is depends on what the object of faith is. Perhaps, we need to clarify what the object of the evangelising out to be...
Food for thought from W.B. Yeats...
THE SECOND COMING
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Perhaps modern evangelising in all is diverse splendour...
stardust
Posted on: 01/10/2014 22:21
Aaron
Hi....Happy New Year to you and yours.
I read some of the discussions. They are fine and there was a good audience, 420 people at one time.
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 01/11/2014 10:25
In the light of non-determinate heresy ... does this open the door to abstract imagination ... the larger portion of the imaginary mind that is proposed to be a myth?
If you do not encompass the myth ... how would you know anything little more everything? Such enigmas baffled Romans and great powers ... judah'ns ... who have been known to collapse in great humour Jack! This was once known as Whack a Molei (A'postolic Hammering once they became totally aware/ an alternate state) that followed Jack in the box/boches and that thought was hammered out in pure irony ...austinetic ... ferritic as allowed! Strange as Potiferrous ... in a code so the noble wouldn't know the common phoqah a'thinking ... population of the soul as eM of the other's ID din Eire currancy of Joey? Isn't that an essence of Joyce ... like beam of laughter in the mad co-enne's "I"?
Don't sweat the big stuff ... just bug eM subtle E with words they don't understand! It is a mental challenge. I was told I needed to be challenged for my far out comments ... they din't know my mental challenge was real: "attempting to figure out the insanity and in humane nature of hue mons". Poe'M Isis ole ... but don't for god's ache mention it! It'll be a pain to the (w)hole thing ... if you can catch my drift ...
Aldo
Posted on: 01/11/2014 11:35
myth is balance by the direct experience of existing...
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 01/11/2014 11:42
A psychic function or just dis taste full work?
chansen
Posted on: 01/11/2014 11:51
Aaron
Hi....Happy New Year to you and yours.
I read some of the discussions. They are fine and there was a good audience, 420 people at one time.
It was funny, though. Once we hit 420, everybody declared they had the munchies and left.
Aldo
Posted on: 01/11/2014 12:25
dis-tasteful work of course.... its the outcome not the process
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 01/12/2014 08:34
Like Psalm 76:11 ... life is not all that simple when you live in the dimension of liars ... then just to make matters worse the authorities (lyons?) say just don't reason (think?) about it and do what they say and the aesthetic complexity is corrupted by simplicity ... or so they expected!
This may be received subtly by some so the simple can glow ... re-defining the indefinable ... indefagable Molly Brown in Ochre (a yellow shade/Shadow)? She was rather irrational in a world of lie ... and thus thought was prostituted ... and the soul sold off for desires ... it's biblical according to Thomas a Kempis:
This is a slow love or a sloe jinn in other traditions where they weren't in such a rush for intellectual perfection without the process. Creation of new learning could be made phun with a few literary screw ups and thus man became the epi Tomé of a Jack Doffed expression of god's dark side ... in satyr an allegory was never the same! Even simple satyrs are not see by those that go by the book without a sense of depth.
In the end what's left? Nothing! Some say this is what we started with ... not a clue! The balance must be intuited but real men confuse thought, feeling, sensation and intuition ... thus creating the chaos of psychic profiling for those that reserve andd save the soul for later! There remans a sense of rapture as a remnant ... in a mire pew! This is a degrading curve or depeted paradigm ... like Ur Anius, or Ura Niam as it degrades through gold to lead! Thus the Golden Ass metaphor sloes ...
Where does reason go when overwhelmed ... life's enigma! This sort of thing burns some people up and some there's nothing left but roasted ashes--- that Chichester Nun ... if there's Fire in the Ashes ... you never know where the burn will erupt! Explains the dark marks on the pagebuoy! Where the thought blew right through ... in pas in ...
In CERN they slam gold particlesto gether with protoneic material to see if they can make a better Black Hole ... a Shadow that processe old material? The Dark Star Eris Sis ... as just word fude for the simple brain! If you don't believe just look about us in the near volumes ... intellectual perfection has to be out there.
It appears intellect is moving all about avoiding the emotions creating a quantum state of chaos ... the cittii or SETI of God ... fey route or just flighty? Ur essence is just not combative ... primarily opposite to mankind and thus we don't see ID! It is underlying statement, subtle truth ... something I can't know for sure here due to the distractions ... advocates that make you think like the devil if you're so inclined ... double helix? Close to Caduces ... a pair of edges!
Alas powers remain that don't believe in anything larger than them ... how god contained corruption ... something you have to pas thro' to believe as a mire mote in space ... that's the dirt, what some call mudder earth!!
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 01/12/2014 08:37
I remain Ur's, out-of-here, consiider me the thoughts you never had ...
Does that give you a rush, or just roué's ... Rue St Gabriel?
WB
Birthstone
Posted on: 01/14/2014 12:50
the comment about the marketing wariness turning people off evangelism is spot-on. I want to run the other way when ads get like that in any setting, but most often when it is about church. A doctrine-lite, safe & open Invitiation to pondering life, the universe & everything has been effective in my view, and opens room up for wondering why is the sky blue, or did Jesus really exist with more people than those who are already eager for the conversation. If people are open to it, dive in, if they aren't yet, then we haven't already sent them running away.
I wish the recent slate of Vosper-bashing would just stop already - it is getting nasty and hurtful in a way that is very unbecoming of ministers. I'm all for speaking out on principle, but it is important to remember we're all supposed to be encouraging respect and freedom to speak. Some are acting like the progressive movement is Satan sneaking in and surprising their perfect church. I think the Progressive Christianity movement has a strong support base, though it seems VERY quiet lately. I wade in with my thoughts and get same old responses, as if everyone forgot that this was pretty mainstream UCC stuff for a long time (atheism aside).
crazyheart
Posted on: 01/14/2014 13:12
I notice, Birthstone that you said "unbecoming of ministers". I noticed that most of the posters are ministry personnel. I think Lay people feel overwhelmed and don't post and eventually fade away. I feel that WC is more welcoming of all people.
Dcn. Jae
Posted on: 01/15/2014 07:34
As someone from the evangelical tradition of Christianity, I see no problem with the way in which evangelism has long been done.
Teach people that they're on the highway to Hell, and then share with them that they can go to Heaven instead if they will accept Jesus into their heart.
Turn or burn, if you will.
The best ways to bring them this Good News are preaching at them from the street corners as they go about their daily routine, handing tracts to them as they're about to board the morning train, and confronting them as they're eating their lunch at shopping malls, university campuses, and the like.
People need to hear the Message, whether they're open to it or not.
Kimmio
Posted on: 01/15/2014 07:57
Lol! Okay, you're putting us on, Jae. That post could go in the Onion. ;)