Sorry, the links didn't work. Someone was able to post active links so I tried html. NOT!

The Science Forum: Scroll Down on the page

http://www.scienceagogo.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=188...

I went back and checked. He begins writing on page 4. His user name is Revlgking. He registered on 01/17/07. If he's still around when I reach page 16 I'm going to register for fun and invite him to the Wondercafe. He would be a wonderful asset. He's very funny too!

Here is the response to his posts on page 5. He's not the youngest on the forum....LOL...but he's so cute. He hangs in there for a long long time!

Re: Evidence for God [Re: Revlgking]
DA Morgan DA Morgan
Moderator

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 759
Loc: Seattle, WA Revlgking wrote:
"You have the BELIEF/FAITH that there is no god."

This is a science site or did you miss that fact somehow? Do you think it appropriate to walk into a conversation someone else is having and interrupt and talk about the fact that your dog has fleas? Your behavior is rude, your nonsense totally inappropriate and you have been fairly warned. Were I the moderator of this forum I would take blunt instrument to your hijacking of this thread. But alas I am not the moderator and as the moderators are willing to let this sickness fester ... here's what you've earned.

We do not BELIEVE that there is no god as a matter of faith. We know that there is no god because there is not a single byte of credible evidence supporting the proposition that one does exist and neither do you.

Do you need evidence to know you are not your own great great grandfather? Do you need evidence to know that there isn't a invisible purple rhinoceros under your bed? If you believe god gave you your brain ... however misguided ... at least do your creator the honor of using it.

You wrote: "BTW, I am not preaching a religion, or a dogma" and that is true. What you are doing is being a troll.

Please don't insult us with your condescending new age woo-wooism: It is not appreciated. Either talk science or have the courtesy of getting lost.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Thanks Stardust for posting this. The thread on scienceagogo is really intriguing - although I haven't yet worked my way through all of it!

I hope lgking will take you up on your invitation - he will offer some wonderful insights to us I think. There's more info about him on his own site - flfcanada.com

Startdust:
Thanks for point to this. It's fascinating. Not to mention highly entertaining!
On another thread - re Sunday School - I was thinking about how much I enjoyed SS and going to church when I was younger - the minister? Lindsay King!

LOL.....Isn't he colourful? He was born in 1930. I think its wonderful that he has the courage to play hardball in a site such as the Science Forum. He followed up by posting his own thread in which "he forgot to turn the other cheek!". He was quite ruffled.

I know its too much reading for most people.

He dropped out; went on a trip to Florida with his wife.

He's cagey. He was asked if he would impose his own will on a person about to commit cannibalism. He replied : "I don't like clowns. They have a funny taste." Highly entertaining character I thought and still going strong.......May God be with him.

I write as a senior, approaching 80. What an interesting experience! Unless I am a re-incarnated being, I have never done this before.

My older brother, who helped to raise my younger sister--we are the last two of a family of 8--and I, lived to be 92. He died in 2004. He had little formal education, but he helped me get one.

BTW, I know all about babies, children, youth and middle-agers. How come? Because, once upon a time I experienced being in all categories. LOL (I laugh out loud!).

May I be bold enough to suggest that experience is one of the best teachers.

My interests? Check out http://www.flfcanada.com
Don't forget to check the important links--http://www.pathwayschurch.ca and the like. Keep in mind: some links may be dated.

Keep in mind: I love to connect with the future generations. I promise not to preach at you.

RevLKing, welcome to WonderCafe. The cafe is enlightening, humerous and informative. We will all be waiting to hear from you again. Come over to social - you will love it.

What is the main focus of this group?

"Come over to social"? What does this mean?

Welcome to the cafe revking...come over to social means to check out the social threads...breezey chit chat. I only had time to read a few of your comments on stardust's link....I hope you'll stick around and chat with us!

It means check out the forum titled 'Social'. :)

And a very hearty welcome to the cafe!

I am just getting around to exploring the new--and much improved--WonderCafe site. Thanks!

Using my wife and my son's name, Turner, I have been having some fun at Scienceagogo and other forums. One thread--on Philosopy of Religion ....  now has nearly 600, 000 clicks and growing . There are others with high counts. Obviously there is a lot of interest. I wonder where the theologians are. In their ivory towers.

Quite a number of secularists--not necessarily  hostile--agnostics and atheists. Some quite friendly.

Rev. L.G. King

Hello! Hello ! What a wonderful surprise to see you here. I was reading on your forums not too long ago. Great stuff !

You dug this thread up from the Archives March 2007. I thought I had gone nuts!!!!

You're looking good ; forever young.........

:-)

Love and Everything Good to You and Yours

BTW, if you, or anyone, have a favourite topic or question, please let me know. If I feel I have anything to share I will be glad to use the topic and we can take it from there. One saying I like is: Let us not fear to disagree; but let us do so, agreeably.

Rev. LG King

You had a definition of God on the forum. I liked it very much but I neglected to save it. I think it was adjectives and adverbs mostly. I'm too lazy to hunt it down so I wonder if you could post it here again.

 Oh yes.....if you really want a job you might reply to the thread  " Is it OK to enjoy life " by Shadow Dweller. She's a teen under 18 in high school. She isn't happy with Christianity  ( she was Catholic) so now she says she's found Satanism - Church of Satan - Anton La Vey  based in California I think.

A few of us are talking to her but we can't help her change her mind. She says she doesn't understand big words or the bible. She asks us to dumb it down when we write to her. If you have time you might post to her on her thread. She may not be reading on this thread.

Thanks!

Hi RevKing and everyone:

There may not be any evidence that there is a God, but there is evidence that cosmic energy is self-creative. We have known, for 50 years or so, that energy is a singularity, and that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Now there is increasing evidence that cosmic energy is self-creative, and that the cosmos is in a state of synthesis.

If we can rid oursleves of the notion of a supernatural God, and regard God as the self-creative totality of being, in a state of synthesis, then there is plenty of evidence for God.

WE NEED TO BE CAREFUL WITH THE WAY WE USE WORDS
===================================================
My World Book dictionary defines religion as: 1. belief in God, or gods. 2. worship of God, or gods 3. a particular system of religious belief or worship.

Then it adds  4. a matter of conscience. [The Latin verb religare means to bind, in the sense of "place an obligation on"]

Number 4. comes closest to what I have in mind. My conscience obliges me, as a humane being, to be moral and ethical in what I think say and do, not out of fear of punishment by some god, but out of respect for nature and human nature, including our spiritual nature. 

This then , at this point, is my religion:  honouring, and valuing that which is of the highest  Good, the highest Order and the highest Desirable--GOD. We can also say: All Goodness, Order and Design. This gets me away from thinking of GOD as a male/female human-like  being.

Keep in mind, I have no intention of being dogmatic about this; but for me, the god-concept is more of an acronym than a noun--the naming of a being or an object to which we can point. GOD is all Being, not just a being, separate and apart from us. Did not Jesus say, "That all may be one"? Use whatever make sense to you.

Interestingly, when Orthodox Jews want to write the divine name, in English, they use G-d. The dash indicates that which is beyond objectifying. For them this avoids making an idol in the mind.

Also, interestingly, the New Testament Greek for church is 'ecclesia'--It means "the ones--that is, two or more--called together",  and refers to a fellowship of like-minded people, not a building. We do have a way of adding a lot of negative baggage on to old words and ruining their original and simple meaning, don't  we?
 

Rev. LGK

Thanks a lot.

You're still here. Good! I thought you might be doing a drive-by. I hope you will stay and participate in the forum. We have quite a variety of souls and your input would be valuable.

Click on the user names to check their profiles to give you an idea of who is who. The forum is a bit hard to manoeuvre around. I use the back button a lot.

Arminius: Is this your name? Or nick name?  Either way, you are no doubt aware of

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobus_Arminius

========================================

Thanks for hyour comments about the word 'God'. You will note that my recent post gives some of my thinking. Here are more notes:

UNITHEISM -- I call myself, for now--meaning I am open to a change of mind when needed--a unitheist/panentheist, while I respect theists, and was raised as one, I now find it impossible to think of gods, or of a person in a human-like form, called God.

This is why I prefer to use the acronym GOD--all Goodness, Order and Design. As  I said Orthodox Jews write G-d, for the same reason. For details, check out:
http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=15465

When I write people with an interest in science I often use the symbol GØD. I learned from a mathematician that Ø is the null= 1/0, the set without numbers. Mathematically speaking it means that all things are possible. Jesus said, "With God, all things are possible."

In Hebrew the root word for GOD is EL. In Arabic it is AL. The logo on Israeli airplanes is EL-AL, meaning to the highest heights, or the highest power. The Greeks translate this as THEOS; the Latin DEUS; the Spanish is DEOS; the Italian is DEO, and the French is DIEU--all mean the highest idea (behind the power). Our Anglo/Saxon word, God, reminds us of the highest good.

IMO--and no dogma intended--GOD is the One Powerful and Good Idea--in which all that IS lives and moves and has its being. At the same time, God, GOD or GØD interpenetrates all that IS--the only verb that applies to GOD.

To put it another way: GOD is not a being with a will who wills and does this that and the other thing to me; because GOD is everything and in everything, including us. Therefore, instead of praying to a God and asking "him" to do this, that and the other thing for me, others and the world, what I need to do is to get rid of my resistance; get it out of the way.

Thus I will receive what GOD is doing in and through me, others and the universe right Now; what Eckhart call the Presence. This is why Jesus said that we are to "tune in to and connect with"--the real mean of the Armaic word SLAHA, which we translate as 'pray'--and believe that we already have that for which we ask. "Pray Believing." --------------------

Hi RevKing: I very much agree with everything you say, and am honoured indeed to have you on this forum! I am nowhere near as well educated as you, I am just a farmer and gardener and hobby writer who had a mindblowing mystical peak experience in which I perceived God as the self-creative cosmic totality.

Yes, I am aware of Jacobus Arminius, and the Arminianism that he founded. But my pen-name has nothing to do with that Arminius.

My real name is Hermann; Arminius is the Latin form of Hermann. The historic "Arminius the Cherusci" defeated three Roman legions in the famous battle of the Teutoburg Forest in the year 9 A.D., and thereby thwarted the attempts of the Roman Empire to expand eastward beyond the Rhine. Although I am not in favour of violence, I am very much in favour of subverting imperialist ambition and expansion, Roman and otherwise.

If you google on the words panentheism and unitheism (a term I began using in the 1990's) You will find numerous references.

http://www.google.ca/search?q=unitheism+panentheism&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq...

Here is a short poem I wrote about the concept:

I think of GØD as goodness,
As order and design,
Which lives in perfect harmony
Within this soul of mine.

GØD's not some distant person
Who lives in heaven, apart,
GØD is the One who dwells within
The open, willing heart.

GØD dwells within each one of us,
And when we give the nod,
We all become, with every breath,
Extensions of that GØD.

=========00000=========

More about overcoming evil with good

 ====================================

 UNITHEISM is a theology--that is, a knowledge-based concept of GOD--which actually inspires me to act on the idea that, with GOD, all good things--physically, mentally and spiritually--are possible. If the word 'GOD' offends you, use one of your own invention.The bottom line is: what you would like life to be like. It is your choice.

My interest in UNITHEISM--which says that GOD is one with us and we are one with GOD--therefore, is not just academic. It is about exploring the practical values connected with this concept, which  will help us, and our suffering world, find the joy-filled and "abundant life" of which Jesus, and others before and after him, spoke.

Using the acronym FREUDE--the German for joy--let me see If I can make myself clear.

By the way, Beethoven's Ode to Joy--part of his great Ninth Symphony, begins with the words, "Freude, freude ..." In my opinion, without GOD there is no joy. There is only fear, resistance, envy, uncertainty, depression and the ego, the ultimate enemy of our peace of mind.

===================================

First the bad news about the enemy:

• F stands for ego-based fears and feelings (Sad and happy). The un-observed ego is in a constant state of fear--fear of failure and that we are missing out on finding the fun of life.
• R stands for ego-based resistance. Our pride tends to cause us to resist doing the things we need, and ought, to do for ourselves and others.
• E stands for envy--coveting things we think we can't have unless with take them from others, including our family, friends, our community and the world. It is the root of all crime, including war, terrorism and the like.
• U stands for the ego-based feeling of uncertainty. It arises out of the unobserved mind. It is the feeling of unease that we get when we feel unaware of what is truly real. When we reach a pure state of consciousness we will no longer feel unaware.
• D stands for the ego-based feeling of despair, the loss of hope. It is a very destructive emotion, leading to the depths of depression--the common cold of mental diseases.
• E stands for the ego, the enemy within--the ego-based mind, the thinker, the psyche--which is out to destroy our peace of mind.

Like fire, the ego can be a great servant, but a mean and destructive master, especially when we allow it to run our lives. Left to its own devices this man-made self, this unobserved mind, will stand between us and keep us separate from the real self, others and all that is good--GOD-like.

Egotism is a dreadful mental disease. As already indicated, it is the mother of envy, the mother of all counter-productive conflicts--crimes of passion, wars, terrorism, financial crashes, you name it ...

==============================================================

NOW FOR THE GOOD NEWS.

When our GOD-given imagination is applied FREUDE can become real joy.

Can you imagine the following?

By making the following simple choice--and that is all that it takes, a choice--one can take, "the road less traveled by" and like the poet said: "make all the difference".

Right now, I make the choice with you: "Beginning now, I choose to live in a state of conscious awareness of all my physical and mental--that is, somatic and psychosomatic--feelings.

I choose to connect with GOD--By the way, atheists, agnostics and others, choose your own word (nature, life, whatever) here--the Source of all knowledge, wisdom, power and Love.

When I make this choice this, my body and mind (soma and the psyche) will then become loving servants--no longer the enemy.

============================================

RevLGKing

I think that you will find a very different reaction on WC.  We are not your "normal" congregation, we are UCC, we are "The Heretics".,w e allow female Ministers, we accept GLTB.

Oh my, we is bad, not doubt.

Welcome, and many happy posts.

IT

Russ

REV. KING:

I am speechless by your ability to chose words that I can feel echo a harmony within, where my God lives. For me to be speechless, as others will tell you (since we are a clan) is very, very rare. I am not prepared to worship you, as is our tendency to do when our egos feel overpowered, but I will let your words flow through me and simply enjoy the resonance!

Hi RevKing:

Joy, you spark of godly beauty,

Daughters of Elysium,

We will enter, drunk with pleasure,

Heavenly, your Heavendom.

-First verse of the "Ode to Joy" by Friedrich Schiller,

Music by Beethoven.

Did you know that Schiller wrote the "Ode to Joy" from fragments of the "Thalia," the prose poem that contained the teachings of the Alexandrian Christian teacher Arianus, who taught around 300 A.D., and whose teachings were declared a heresy and all copies of the Thalia burned. Only fragements survived, and Schiller used some of those to write his "Ode to Joy."

It this is heresy, then I'm a heretic!

Rev.LG King

My vocabulary isn't quite as extensive as yours so I'll just say I love reading your stuff....LOL. That's a terrific poem you wrote. I picked it up in my beak and I'm flying off to Vancouver with it presenting it to my sister.

O Man! You're 80 and your mind is sharp as a steel trap. Go...man....go!

I know you didn't get much appreciation on the Science forum. I'm surprised you're still in one piece......the vultures were all gathered round!

The best is reserved for last so here's a great big hug from me to you.....oh,oh...your wife is watching us.....

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Rev. LG King)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Stardust, you changed your picture!  Interesting. Did you intuit that Jean and I are both cat lovers.

Two of our old friends--both of whom lived to be about 19--are burried not far from our home. One, Boots, was a Maine Coon. While with us, he evolved from being agressive to being gentle. The other, Jets, always gentle--we called him gentleman Jets--was a short-haired black persian. He had white jets all over his black fur...

MORE ON UNITHEISM

The following is a revised version of a dialogue I had with Rick-- a scientist, a friendly and curious agnostic--February, 2006.

To him I said, "Rick, thanks to you, I took the time to do some research on the mathematical symbol Ø, the null. Does this have a name?"

Since then I have found out that in mathematics, the word null (from German null, which is from Latin nullus, both meaning "zero", or "none"). Meaning of or related to having zero members in a set or a value of zero. Sometimes the symbol ∅ is used to distinguish "null" from 0.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Null_(mathematics)

G0D--note the zero. It serves the same purpose as writing GØD.
I reminded Rick: "In the mid 1950's I did two years of graduate theological studies at Boston university. My general theme was: The History of Ideas."

Since my dialogue with Rick, in my signature, instead of using the plain O as the central letter in the word GOD, I use ∅.

I told Rick, "Here is why: Ever since I became aware that Orthodox Jews write the divine name as G-d, I have wanted a symbol that expresses how I feel. It came to my mind that Divine Mind is connected with mathematics, as well as with literature. For some time, now, I have had a vague idea that Ø is a mathematical symbol. But I did not, consciously know what it meant.

"Just recently, to check out my vague idea (revelation?) I googled on "mathematical symbols" and up came the following marvellous information, thank G0D ( I could use zero, 0, I suppose):

[url=http://brainmeta.com/redirect/redirlink2/redir.php?id=en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_mathematical_symbols]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_mathematical_symbols[/url]
I discovered that Ø is used as part of the set theory of mathematics. It refers specifically to the set with no elements, that is, a null set. Imagine. Can there be such a thing?
Check out: [url=http://brainmeta.com/redirect/redirlink2/redir.php?id=en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set[/url]

In the word, which I concocted, the G, in GØD, stands for the highest good in all that is, including that which appears to be evil.

The Ø in GØD, is, as noted, a mathematical symbol. It stands for the no thing--not to be confused with nothing--and the everything, from which all things, mysteriously, emanate in a rational, scientific and orderly fashion.

The D stands the things desireable, artistically beautiful designs and purpose of all that is.

This fits in well with what most theologians--and I include myself--past and present, mean when they use the Latin phrase creatio ex nihilo--that is, the creation of things came out of no thing, fifteen billion years ago, at the BIG Bang.

Furthermore, it is possible for us to imagine that, right at this very moment, our cosmos is expanding into the no thing--in others words, GØD, as Spirit. Therefore, GØD, IMHO, is the no thing from which all things came and come. As Spirit, G∅D, interpenetrates all things, and is the no thing into which all things expand.

ATHEISTS, IS THERE SUCH A THING AS NOTHING?
I wonder if atheists have a name for this no thing, which was there before the BIG Bang. And what about the no thing beyond the currently-expanding universe. Perhaps the god of atheism is called the no thing. Sounds okay to me, as long as it helps us all be good, loving and moral people--which I feel is the bottom line of all sound and healthy religions.

GØD AS PERSONAL BEING
I have been asked, "Do you believe that GØD is personal, in anyway shape or form?"

Yes, I do.

But this does not mean that, for me, GØD is a personal and objective being, who looks like you and me.

I like to believe that GØD is personal, in and through you me, and all persons. IMHO, we are, or can be, if we so choose, children--that is, sons and daughters--of GØD.

This is another way of saying: We, as human beings, constitute that part of GØD we recognize as consciousness. As such, by the grace of GØD, we also have at our disposal an enormous source of unconscious knowledge and power, which, if accessed lovingly and fortified by the attitude of Love (G0D is Love)--the highest good--could make life on earth a literal garden of Eden.

Interestingly, in Aramaic--the common language of Jesus' day--praying did not mean asking a reluctant God for favours. It meant connecting with, or tuning into, the power of GØD, not pleading with a reluctant God. It is our resistance to the unconscious power of GØD which is the main cause of evil and our failure to get the answers we need. Most prayers of petition get the silent-treatment because of our arrogant pride rooted in ego-based mind.

If you will take the time to look for it, this is the basic teaching of the Gospels, as well as of the writings of Paul.

Take note: In John 17:20-24, where Jesus tunes in to GØD and affirms his oneness with GØD, he includes all of us in the process. IMHO, when he says, "That all may be one"--the logo on the crest of the United Church of Canada--with GØD, means ALL!!!! Also, take a look at John 10:34, where Jesus quotes Psalm 82: "I have said you are gods...".
===============================000000000000000000=============================
In summary: The words, gods, god, and God carry so much baggage that, in my humble opinion, perhaps the time has come for us to use a new and special symbol in the form of an acronym: GØD. If you prefer, create you own, word, symbol. The point is: not to worship the symbol, or even the mental image it conjurs.

May I suggest that
1. the G stands for the highest good, agape-love. Agape-love relates to [i]eros[/i] (sensual or physical love) and to [i]philia[/i] (love of friend for friend) but it is not dependent on them. The Bible says, "GØD is Love". Originating in the human will, agape-love is justice and truth in action.

2. The Ø is a mathematical symbol, not unlike zero. It refers to a set without elements, relating to set theory. This links the GØD concept with mathematics, order and the sciences. GØD is the no thing--not to be confused with nothing.

3. D stands for the desirable and artistic design of things. This links GØD with the arts and the search for that which is truly beautiful.

4. GØD. in my opinion, is not a super human or person-like being, separate and apart from all that is, and looking for us to bow and scrape as subjects before a tyrant. But, rather, GØD is ALL being, total, universal and all-encompassing--physically, mentally and spiritually. GØD is all the knowledge, wisdom and power available, like an all powerful and infallible Source of Love,  just waiting to be gracious, when we have enough wisdom to get our egos out of the way. What are we waiting for?

========================

Interestingly, Stardust, most of the agnostics and atheists with whom I have dialogued have been gracious. If possible, you could change the name of this thread to: Instead of 'versus' atheists and agnostics; it is "in dialogue with...."

==========00000000000000=============

Hello again Rev. King.....

My avatar cat says : The eyes are the windows to the soul.

I have two cats, Hershey 13 and Mitzi 6.  Mitzi is short hair black and white. Hershey is long hair very dark brown, not black, in the sunlight.

Hershey  has always been a begging cat ....paws in the air ...when he wants petting, food, attention or whatever. He always begs for table food like he's doing in my amateur  You Tube video taken with the digital camera.  I have other amateur videos here too - 7775jo - of my grandson's school  concerts etc. He's our only grandson ....Daniel. age 12.  He  lives with us. 

Hersey looks looks something like our Jets, except Jets had while flecks  under his chin.

BTW, here is a short video of our daughter's floating house. It covers over half ancre with walkways and garden, near Tofino, BC. Catherine (now 52)  and her husband, Wayne Adams, are artists.

====================================

Thanks for the change in title. If possible, you could use:

Rev. Lindsay G. King, UC Minister--In Dialogue With Scientists--Some Atheists & Agnostics.

Wow....what a fantastic floating house !  Beautiful....and your daughter too!  I saved it.

I left out one word in the title as it may be too lengthy. We have a few UC clergy here but when the WonderCafe opened in 2006  the UC asked them not to use Rev. or to identify themselves as ministers. Most are undercover unless we check profiles. I don't know why except I read that the UC doesn't want anyone to feel he/she is higher or above the others. Some have said its bringing the clergy down....? Personally  I like to see the ministers identified. I certainly respect their knowledge above my own. As a rule they are well educated.

Rev. King : quote :

It came to my mind that Divine Mind is connected with mathematics, as well as with literature.

Yes, I've understood that this is so. When the Jews teach the Hebrew alphabet they always teach the numerical value of each letter along with it.

There are many people today, a lot in  New Age, who believe certain numbers or groups of numbers hold significance such as 1111, 444 , 222, 777 etc. etc.  Its a type of numerology except  I'm not sure its bona fide. There are many variations within the field including the meanings  of numbers within the realm of the angels.

 I'd very much like to hear what you have to say about it.

Thanks.

Rev. King

You were asking earlier what the purpose of the forum is.

The original purpose was hoping  to bring  people ages 30-45  into the church . Their  young children could attend Sunday School etc. Many churches of all denominations as well as the UC are closing. The congregations are aging and there is not enough younger people to replace them. It was the hope of the UC that the general population would learn a bit about the UC and also see that their church goers are quite ordinary people, not saints etc. with a wide variety of spiritual beliefs.

The administration doesn't inform us very much regarding whether church numbers are increasing . Some have felt there's been too much emphasis on numbers.

It takes a lot of time checking profiles. I would have liked to see the UC members identified in some way since the forum is open to the public from all walks of life. Many people don't check profiles so they may read threads by atheists, agnostics or whoever ,  and believe it represents  the UC in general. We get the odd crazy person doing a drive by meaning they pop in and out quickly. They may go away with a totally wrong impression of the UC.

P.S. You might check out the Emerging Church thread. Bruce Sanquin's book is being reviewed if you are familiar with him.

The first Methodist saddle-bag preachers worked the area as early as 1805.  In 1796, the first pioneer families--Loyalists from Pennsylvania, led by Jacob Cummer--arrived. In 1816, Cummer built a log chapel on his land near what is now Church and Yonge. In 1856, it was replaced by the historic Methodist Episcopal brick building and church which, including the pioneer cemetery, became part of the UCC in 1925. THE FIRST BUILDING BOOM IN NORTH YORK At the end of WW 2 a large area immediately north of Toronto, as the result of the first building boom, sparked by veterans and their young families, became organized as North York. In 1954, the North Town Plaza--the first of its kind in the GTA--opened just north of the UC. At the same time, the United Church dedicated the modern Georgian-style building under the leadership of the late the Rev. Welburn Jones (1945-1966)--who I succeeded in 1966. When I arrived, on the member and adherent list, there were about 800 relatively young families, including a core of senior families. As I said, we arrived at the beginning of the second, and still continuing, building boom, including the subway and high rises. It was an exciting time for Jean and I and our young daughter, Catherine, an artist, now 52, and son, Turner--a musician and a teacher--who will be 50 in Dec. 

===========================================

In the 1970's I could see the demographics changing as more and more apartment buildings were built. More and more of the young adults in the church got married and with the price of realestate rising as it did many were forced to move. House prices tripled in less than ten years. Those who moved in to occupy the apartments were mostly other than typical Protestants looking for a church.           

MID-WEEK MEDIATION PROGRAMS AND HEALING SERVICES--and how they--under the general title PNEUMATOLOGY ( the study of the Spirit)--helped the church stay strong by attracting many adults and young people from all over the metro area (the GTA).

By the way, I need to point out that I had accepted the call--and it was a call, as I had not applied for the vacancy--to WUC on condition that I would be given a fee hand to carry a holistic and healing-based ministry to the whole community. The Official Board concurred the Jesus did send out his disciples to "preach, teach and heal". I told them that Pneumatology was based on the power of Spirit of God, in Christ and in all of us, not just to preach and teach, but to heal.

It was based on a model I heard about when I studied at Boston: The Emmanuel Movement, which really impressed me. Check out Harvard University Press link:

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/GIFEMM.html

The book about the movement is, RELIGION AND MEDICINE--The moral control of nervous disorders. It was written, in 1908, by two ministers (of Emmanuel Church, Boston) and a psychiatrist who happened to be a Jew. It contains a lot of information about hypnotism and the power of suggestion powerred by faith.

===========================================

Others who, over the years, influenced me were: William James, who taught psychology, at Harvard and wrote the classic, Varieties of Religious Experiences. Carl Jung, who, because of his belief in power of having a spiritual faith, broke with his friend and mentor, Sigmund Freud. Harry Emerson Fosdick, who often preached and wrote on the theme, "The Service of Religious Faith to Total Health"; Carl Menninger, Whatever Became of Sin? Leslie D. Weatherhead, who, trained in theology and psychology wrote the ground-breaking, Psychology, Religion and Healing. In his own church, City Temple, London, England, he established a clinic made up of several members of the healing arts, including those of a strong religious faith.

BTW, I HAVE NEVER BEEN A FAN OF FIXED-POSITION THINKING

This means that I approached the matter of "faith" or "spiritual" healing with a positive, and analytical frame of mind. I hope it has also been balanced and fair. I talked with and listened to numerous people who told me of their interest in "faith" healing. Some used the term "spiritual". I read numerous books and magazines on the New Thought Movements of the 19th. Century, including Christian Science, books about yoga, mesmerism, coueism, hypnotism, spiritualism, whatever, intrigued me and helped understand how the body, mind and spirit influence one another.

Meanwhile I gave series after series of lectures, including demonstrations, of PNEUMATOLOGY. Time permitting, I saw quite a number of private clients and made recordings--later, tapes--for them to use. There we some dramatic recoveries.

THE EXPERIMENT

===============

I think it was in 1973 when I first met--let's call him, Chris. Chris--a fascinating personalty--was introduced to me by two young people who had taken my Pneumatology Lectures. His ancestry was Frisian Dutch, very blond and blue-eyed. During WW 2, as a youth, he escaped the Nazi-occupation of Holland and was raised in England, as an Anglican. He told me, "I was confirmed by The Rt. Rev. Geoffrey Fisher, then Archbishop of Canterbury." Later, he had a personal health crisis and what he felt was a miraculous recovery. He told me, "I tried to talk to my parish minister about what had happened to me. But he refused to listen to 'such nonsense'. This led me to explore Spiritualism--non-sectarian, BTW--to which I was introduced by a friend. This road has led me beyond narrow religionism." Later, as an adult, Chris became a cinematographer with J.Arthur Rank. This led to his migrating to Canada. To make a long story short: To the Official Board of WUC, I suggested: ""As an experiment, let us allow Chris and his team, made up, BTW, of many young people, do their thing at programs during the week, of which I, and interested members of the congregation, are invited to be a part. "" It was any outstanding success for the next 20 years and more, even beyond the year I retired, 1994. The Christmas programs, with guest musical artists, was often larger than that of the regular congregation.

Each Monday, 7:30-9:00, hundreds of people--one was a medical researcher from the University of Toronto, who sat with his wife and daughter--under the leadership of Chris, came to meditate, to soft musical accompaniment. They meditated for themselves and others for healing of body mind and spirit. Following this, many stayed for an extended period of chat, tea/coffee and fellowship. Meanwhile, the regular church programs continued. So did my lectures on pneumatology, and counseling, which included learning the art of meditation. Many who took the lectures went on to become a part of Chris' meditation service. He also gave special lectures. Chris and others became members of the Official Board and was one of the main speakers at my retirement.

IT WAS NOT ALL SMOOTH SAILING

=============================

Yes, as in all attempts to break new ground and follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit, there were some bumps along the way. There were those who did not approve. This was true in the early church and of the ministry of Jesus and the apostles. I am sure that this is also true today of the"Emerging Spirit" program. It too has its detractors. More than once, Presbytery was asked to use its power of having oversight to look into whether or not what was happening at WUC was Bible-based and truly Christian. However, thanks to the grace of GOD, and to the fact that, following careful surveys, votes taken by the board and the congregation were very supportive, all assaults were overcome and at the end of forty years of happy pastoral ministry, I retired. I learned that, with the help of the Holy Spirit,  that it is OK to experiment and try new things.  Let us leave it there.

Rev. King

You certainly sound like you did something wonderful and extraordinary  during your tenure at the U.C.  I agree with it.....terrific.

It sounds supercalifragilisticexpialdocious.........

Back then you did have some bodies to work with. Today's UC needs a good cowboy with a lasso to rope in  the calves and cattle. Do you know anyone in the field?

:-)

That reminds me of an old joke about the bare-footed, old mystic who had bad breath.  He was known as the "super-calloused-fragile mystic, cursed with halitosis"

stardust wrote:

... Back then you did have some bodies to work with. Today's UC needs a good cowboy with a lasso to rope in  the calves and cattle. Do you know anyone in the field?  

Stardust, as I am not quite sure what you have in mind perhaps you could put your question in another way.

Meanwhile, may I ask: Is this site about posters coming up with new ways and means of increasing church membership and filling the pews? Is there a thread on this topic?

WHAT DID JESUS CALL HIS DISCIPLES TO DO?

As I understand it, when Jesus called disciples (that is, those who were students willing to hear the good news of total salvation), he told them to "preach, teach and heal". He did so in the knowledge that he was a fully GOD-conscious human being.

When he asked them to "follow me" he was in effect saying, "You, too, can become GOD-conscious. Then you will be ready to call others.

With them--all willing to be communicators, teachers, healers and stewards--you will help heal the brokenness of yourselves, of nature and the universe--in body, mind and spirit."

In the same, we are called to the same kind of GOD-consciousness, in the now, not in some far-off time. 

Oh  Rev. King....

Sorry about the confusion. What I meant re the cowboy is that the UC needs p-e-o-p-l-e . You must be aware that the young people and also  age 30-45 people are not going to church.  Some congregations are composed of elderly people who won't be around forever.

Its very serious; not funny. Churches are closing throughout Canada but not only the UC. In PEI most of the Catholic churches closed.  Arminius lives in Lumby, B.C. It has a pop. of around 1700 plus but his UC church only has about  30 people  ( or something like that) attending. No matter how good a minister you are you can't do your stuff if there's no one there to hear you.

We've had lots of threads about the problem. Its the whole purpose of the website. I don't even go to church...lol...but I'm the self appointed CEO .....kidding you.....I hate to see churches falling by the wayside.

Is this site about coming poxsters up with new ways and means of increasing church membership and filling the pews?

YES.....definitely YES .....

"super-calloused-fragile mystic, cursed with halitosis"    ( kewl....)

Even though  the sound of it is  simply quite atrocious.....

Stardust:

Two things: First, note that I have corrected the typo I made in the question I asked about the purpose of WC:

Here is what I asked: Is this site about posters coming up with new ways and means of increasing church membership and filling the pews?

=========================================================

DEALING WITH EGOISM--THE ROOT CAUSE OF EVIL WITH ITS PAIN AND SUFFERING

By the way, because I believe that egoism is the root cause of all evil, with its pain and suffering, I like to use IMHO--an acronym meaning "in my humble opinion"--frequently, especially when I feel a bout of egoism coming on.

=========================================================

THE GOSPEL OF LOVE WILL HELP US DEAL WITH EGOISM

Second, IMHO, as I have already indicated, the first thing we need to do need to do is to focus on what I feel is the central message of the Jesus as implied in the four Gospels.

GOD-CONSCIOUSNESS IS THE SAME AS LOVE-CONSCIOUSNESS

In effect, the Gospel tells us the following about about Jesus: He was born the child of GOD-conscious parents; raised to be a GOD-conscious child and adult and, at his bar mitsvah, he confirmed his choice to accept  that he was GOD-conscious. After twenty years of preparation--working, no doubt traveling, meeting others and studying what the world needed--he was ready. He began by simply inviting anyone willing to listening to him to make the same choice he had and become GOD-conscious, too. 

THE GREAT COMMANDMENT

In Matthew 22: 34-40 he makes clear the love-based nature of his message: GOD is love in and through us, others and all that is. Note: When he is asked, "Which is the greatest commandment in  the law?"  He does not quote from the so-called Ten Commandments; he quotes from Deuteronomy 6:5, not from chapter 5, where the Ten are listed. Then he expands on this love theme by quoting from Leviticus 19:18.

In Luke 10:25-37, he expands this love theme to include the whole world by telling the Parable of the Good Samaritan--as if to say no more segregation, no more we, they. In the Gospel of John he declares his oneness with GOD. In his great prayer in John 17, he declare our oneness with him, GOD and one another. And as his beloved disciple, John, put it later: "God is love."

================================================================

In harmony with the above, you might be interested in what I hust wrote in another forum where I write:

PART OF A SERIES in dealing with evil--the problem of pain and suffering:
Ellis (a bright and open agnostic) and fellow egos in cyber space: My ego would like to know how you are doing. If you do not have an ego, please say so. How would we know you are telling the truth?

QUESTIONS ABOUT THE EGO
=========================
What is the ego?
Freud: http://psychology.about.com/od/eindex/g/def_ego.htm
Adler: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/hstein/wie-hs.htm
================================================================
MY EGO REALLY ENJOYED THE FOLLOWING ESSAY AND VIDEOS
====================================================
http://hubpages.com/hub/How-to-back-down-gracefully-in-an-argument
Scroll down near the bottom. There you will find a short you tube video on "How to Get rid of the egoism." A brilliant explanation of the ego's function. The first of a series.
============================================
Meanwhile, think about:
Do you have a sensitive, a bland, or a tough ego? Is there such a thing as ego-bashing? Or ego abuse? Does having a sensitive ego prevent you from taking part in forums like this? Do not be afraid to be anonymous. Is there such a program as: EGOS ANONYMOUS? If not, would it be a good idea?

What are your questions?

Hi RevKing:

I think that the concept of ourselves as separate individuals is at the root of egocentricity. Believing ourselves to be separate individuals, we use our creative and intellectual powers to serve the basic instincts of the separate individuals that we believe we are.

To get away from that, we have to get away from the illusion of separateness, and experience and believe ourselves to be at-one with God. Then we go from being ego-centric to being world-centric.

This, of course, pre-supposes that we regard God as the all-inclussive, cosmic totality, and ourselves as an inseparable part thereof. Unfortunately, many Christians regard at-one-ment with God as Satanism--and the worst possible sin!

This, however, is so only because they believe in the supernatural God. The paradigm shift from the separate supernatural God to the all-inclusive natural God is the challenge of the 21st century.

Arminius

And so we come full circle once again.  Care for the human, as well as the non-human.  The appreciation that this is the only place we have to live on, and we better start taking care of it.  That idea that when you buy, think "do I really need it?" and think beyond the Price Rollback garbage!

IT

Russ

Rev. LG King

I just want to acknowledge your post. Its late and I'll reply tomorrow. 

Two topics I can't get my head around : ego is one and free will is the other ....no matter how hard I bang my head.....lol. Ego and all of its perceptions. We can't live without it!

We're too old to fight now but my husband and I used to get into arguments in our younger days. I'll never forget it. I'd run around shouting : "I'm a person. I'm a person.....I'm a person just like you are " .....and his reply is engraved in my mind : " I don't know if you are or not "......

Oh my Lord.....I've spent lots of time building up my ego....not trying to get rid of it....! This sounds funny I know.....I decided I'd better "become a person", I can't do that without the ego....laugh.....I'm nuts....

:-)

stardust

I am firmly convinced that everyone, except me of course, who spends time on WC, is nuts.  I am simply deranged.

IT

Russ

Hi stardust:

Don't forget that women became lawful persons only about one hundred years ago. It is understandable (but not acceptable) that some of us men prefer to live in the past.

In some Swiss Cantons, women got the right to vote in civic elections as recently as the early seventies. And Switzerland is supposed to be one of the cradles of demoracy!

As I said before, in my definition of "ego," the ego is the illusion of separateness: the illusion of ourselves as separate individuals.

We are unique persons, all right, who must satisfy the basic needs of the biological individual that we are, but we are not separate from the greater whole which is God! We are inseparably united with God! We are inseparable albeit individually unique parts of God!

In cosmic creation, the energetic singularity named God multiplied, diversified, and "uniquefied" ITself while remaining an indivisible singularity. Every one of us is a unique and inseparable part of the indivisible and self-creative singularity which is God.

RussP

Little hope for me. I'm mentally deranged whether I'm here or elsewhere.

Except with very close family or friends two topics that are off limits in society at large or the work place  are religion and politics. In person I avoid these subjects...so I'm having a hey day, a ball...on the net ....freedom of  expression along with first class entertainment....wow!

On top of that we have quite a few  intelligent people posting. My sleeping brain is getting a workout...........................:-)

Arminius: your quote:As I said before, in my definition of "ego," the ego is the illusion of separateness: the illusion of ourselves as separate individuals.

Good definition. I see myself as a part of the whole; no problem there.

When I think of the term "no ego" I may be taking it to the extreme. I think about the countless little ordinary people all over the world working behind the scenes in God's kingdom here on earth. No pomp, no splendour, no fan fare, no speaking out, quiet and hidden from the world. These have melted into God and the ego is dissolved; something like that. God is in large measure a hidden God....so we may say they are hidden in Christ.

Stardust,

Indicating that people really do want to dialogue on, " The philosophy of religion..."There are now over 600,000 clicks on the one I started, using my wife's surname, Turner,  at Scienceagogo.com--a science forum with a philosophy section. Here is the link:

http://www.scienceagogo.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showthreaded&Number...

Thanks Rev. King

I've been a bit busy. I  have a lot of catching up to do. That link you gave me above  didn't work too well with my large print ( way off the page) so I went to the index. That's a great forum

.

Here's the better link:

ALL GOOD RELIGION IS BASED ON HAVING A RATIONAL FAITH. IT REQUIRES US TO LEARN THE ART OF LIVING, DEDICATED TO SERVING THE HIGHEST GOOD

With the above in mind, here is a quick note about one who, as a  philosopher,  teacher and writer inspired many, including me, to serve the highest good.

William James Durant, was the Massachusetts's-born son of Canadian (Quebec) parents who must have inspired him to have a thirst for knowledge and wisdom, which would led him to have an artful and spiritual kind of life grounded in knowledge and wisdom--one worth living.

Durant spent most of his long life, as a student, teacher, writer and activist, popularizing the study of history, religion and philosophy. He did give his students knowledge and information to help them have a better standard of living, But he did more than this. He helped them practice the art of living; he inspired them to be curious, to want to learn and have a deep thirst to know more and more about how to live.

In his great book, The Story of Philosophy he writes, "All science begins with philosophy and ends as art." And, IMHO, the most important and basic art of all is the art of living itself.

It seems to me that all normal children are born natural philosophers. Motivated by an unconscious drive, from birth, we know how to demand food. And soon we learn to walk and talk, without even being aware of how we did it.

If as children, we were fortunate enough that, when we reached the conscious stage, we had parents wise enough to inspire us to keep on  learning, to keep on having a healthy and deep curiosity, but now on a conscious level. This is the kind of wise parenting which will help children, not just learn things, but help them develop a genuine thirst for all kinds of knowledge, not only in the years of their youth, but all the years of their lives.

This, too, is the kind of preparation for living which is bound to inspire children, not just to know, but, remain natural philosophers, to want to listen, to question and to know so that they learn all the science and technologies necessary to make all art possible. What is more, we want our philosophies, sciences and arts to be of moral and ethical service to the highest good--GOD.

ABOUT DURANT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Durant

Thanks Rev. King

Hoping to make the link live....lol

http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Durant

It worked! Thanks!