crazyheart's picture

crazyheart

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Shepherd

I have never lived on a farm so I don't know sheep. can you relate to the metaphors about Jesus being a shepherd to the sheep? Just wondering.

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Dcn. Jae's picture

Dcn. Jae

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crazyheart wrote:

I have never lived on a farm so I don't know sheep. can you relate to the metaphors about Jesus being a shepherd to the sheep? Just wondering.

 

 

 

Olivet_Sarah's picture

Olivet_Sarah

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I can relate to it on the intellectual level that I know what it refers to; on that gut/tug the heartstrings level though, as a fairly suburban/urban girl of this era, I have to admit that the imagery of an unconditionally loving friend, or even yes, parent, guide ... probably hits me closer to home.

crazyheart's picture

crazyheart

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OLIVET, that is how I feel too and I wonder what strangers to our worshipping tradition feel.

I read somewhere that the church is overly fond of sheep.  especially the UCCAN.

jon71's picture

jon71

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I much prefer the metaphor of GOD as our father and we HIS children. Being a dad that one I can really relate to.

naman's picture

naman

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crazyheart wrote:

I have never lived on a farm so I don't know sheep. can you relate to the metaphors about Jesus being a shepherd to the sheep? Just wondering.

 

But you have been a guide to school children on a field trip. Pretty much the same as a shepherd herding his sheep.

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onewman

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I have lived in Israel, and there the Palestinian children tend the sheep in the old fashioned way, I don't know if these kids were really "good shepherds", but I noticed a few things, for example: They throw lots of rocks! At first I thought they were throwing them at the sheep, and I was about to say something, but they throw rocks into the bushes on the opposite side of the sheep that they want them to travel. So they scare them in the "right" direction. Like I said, that might not be a "good" shepherding technique. They also burn the quickly sun dried sheep manure in their camp fires. Interesting symbiotics, but maybe off topic.

gecko46's picture

gecko46

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Sheep are very difficult to herd as they tend to scatter/wander in all directions, have minds of their own (don't think they are very bright), and are victims of wolves, bears, wild dogs and other predators.

 

Think the image of Jesus with sheep is meant as a symbol of Jesus the protector of all.

Jesus holding the lamb is for me a symbol of gentleness and acceptance. 

 

Lamb of God is one of the titles given to Jesus in the New Testament.  Jesus becomes the ultimate sacrifice (in keeping with Hebrew tradition) to atone for the sins of man.

 

Jesus then, is both shepherd to his flock, humankind, as helper and protectior, but also the sacrificial lamb.

unsafe's picture

unsafe

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gecko46---   Amen to your words.

 

   Great Posting ---You hit the nail on the head .

 

 and Many Blessings 

chansen's picture

chansen

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I think it was Hitchens who said that the shepherd doesn't look after sheep because he likes sheep - he looks after sheep so he can fleece them and slaughter them.

 

I'm quite content to not refer to myself as a sheep.

Arminius's picture

Arminius

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This goes back to the ancient Hebraic tradition of nomadic or semi-nomadic herding, where sheep were grazed in unfenced wilderness. The lives of the ancient Hebrews depended on taking good care of their flocks, and good shepherds were highly esteemed.

GRR's picture

GRR

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chansen wrote:

I think it was Hitchens who said that the shepherd doesn't look after sheep because he likes sheep - he looks after sheep so he can fleece them and slaughter them.

Which, while demonstrating that as a journalist Hitchens can put together clever sound bites, it also demonstrates he doesn't know much about farmers. In my experience, those who make their living from farming of any kind have a tremendous respect for the land, livestock, and the environment.

 

.....

 

Actually hansen, I think you've "pulled a Geo".  Thinking on this a little more, I do think there's an application to faith. The people I describe above are, for the most part, family farmers. There are definitely factory farms that would fit Hitchens' derisive quip. Just as there are formulaic churches. hmmmmm, thanks for the germ of another idea.

David

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chansen

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GoldenRule wrote:

chansen wrote:

I think it was Hitchens who said that the shepherd doesn't look after sheep because he likes sheep - he looks after sheep so he can fleece them and slaughter them.

Which, while demonstrating that as a journalist Hitchens can put together clever sound bites, it also demonstrates he doesn't know much about farmers. In my experience, those who make their living from farming of any kind have a tremendous respect for the land, livestock, and the environment.

Farmers may respect the animals they tend to, but they don't look to them for emotional attachment.  The sheep are there for their wool and their meat.  At the end of the day, they are a commodity.  This is consistent with my paraphrasing of Hitchens above.

 

If people want to think of themselves as sheep being led, I'm not in a position to disagree with them.

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Arminius

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The meaning of the metaphor of the Good Shepherd is not of sheep being led to slaughter but being taken good care of.

 

In German, one of the names for pastor is "Seelsorger" wich, literally translated, means "Carertaker of souls." In modern terms, this would be a psychologist. Being a good psychologist for his or her congregation is, in my opinion, the primary prerequisite for any pastor. Many modern pastors have a degree in psychology and function as counseling psychologists for their congregants.

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blackbelt

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chansen wrote:

GoldenRule wrote:

chansen wrote:

I think it was Hitchens who said that the shepherd doesn't look after sheep because he likes sheep - he looks after sheep so he can fleece them and slaughter them.

Which, while demonstrating that as a journalist Hitchens can put together clever sound bites, it also demonstrates he doesn't know much about farmers. In my experience, those who make their living from farming of any kind have a tremendous respect for the land, livestock, and the environment.

Farmers may respect the animals they tend to, but they don't look to them for emotional attachment.  The sheep are there for their wool and their meat.  At the end of the day, they are a commodity.  This is consistent with my paraphrasing of Hitchens above.

 

If people want to think of themselves as sheep being led, I'm not in a position to disagree with them.

the parable is in the nature of the sheep, not the cause of  outcome that sinful man imposes on the sheep.

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chansen

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Well, in that case, you can celebrate that the analogy works on many levels.

Neo's picture

Neo

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I personally think that the whole sheep and goats metaphor is completely mixed up. The sheeple follow blindly with very little initiative to think for themselves, whereas the goats are the ones who climb the mountain on their own accord and vision more of God. Perhaps it's because of the sheep's inability to think for themselves that they need a shepherd.

 

And the sacrificial Lamb of God reference was most definitely, imo, a product of the fact that Christ walked this Earth when the Sun was moving out of the constellations of Aries the Ram. I'm don't know why orthodox religions refused to see this. It seems so obvious.

 

 

 

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Neo wrote:

I personally think that the whole sheep and goats metaphor is completely mixed up. The sheeple follow blindly with very little initiative to think for themselves, whereas the goats are the ones who climb the mountain on their own accord and vision more of God. Perhaps it's because of the sheep's inability to think for themselves that they need a shepherd.

the analogy is that the sheep are blind when it comes to the Spiritual realm of things. A Blind man trying to cross a busy Rd and a good Samaritan , takes him by the arm and safly guides him to the other side.

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

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GRR

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Arminius wrote:

This goes back to the ancient Hebraic tradition of nomadic or semi-nomadic herding, where sheep were grazed in unfenced wilderness. The lives of the ancient Hebrews depended on taking good care of their flocks, and good shepherds were highly esteeemed.

I think that, for me, this comes closer to what I've always understood as the intent.

 

That said, I think that we have to accept that two thousand years later even the best attempt to put ourselves in the "audience" of the writers is an approximation seen through our own cultural filters. Which is fancy way of saying that this too is most meaningful when accepted as metaphor.

David

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GRR

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chansen wrote:

Farmers may respect the animals they tend to, but they don't look to them for emotional attachment.  The sheep are there for their wool and their meat.  At the end of the day, they are a commodity.  This is consistent with my paraphrasing of Hitchens above.

 

In a utilitarian worldview that's probably accurate.

But there's a huge spectrum of meaning between the two extremes - emotional attachment and commodity - that you're trying to reduce the discussion to.

 

 

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chansen

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If anything, I'm saying that the metaphor of Jesus as a shepherd is accurate and can be applied in ways other than you may want to discuss.  Principally, that many followers of Jesus do so mindlessly, and that many churches have a history of fleecing their flock.

Neo's picture

Neo

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chansen wrote:

If anything, I'm saying that the metaphor of Jesus as a shepherd is accurate and can be applied in ways other than you may want to discuss.  Principally, that many followers of Jesus do so mindlessly, and that many churches have a history of fleecing their flock.

Witch's picture

Witch

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The idea of a kind shepherd, who loves his sheep and cares for them their whole lives, as told in the Bible, is obvioulsy made up by a city dweller who never spent any time around sheep, or shepherds.

 

Do you know what shepherds have for their supper? Mutton stew.

GRR's picture

GRR

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chansen wrote:

If anything, I'm saying that the metaphor of Jesus as a shepherd is accurate and can be applied in ways other than you may want to discuss.  Principally, that many followers of Jesus do so mindlessly, and that many churches have a history of fleecing their flock.

I've no problem with moving metaphors around at all hansen. But you're mixing yours above by trying to make "Jesus" and "churches" one and the same. That's not applying the metaphor differently, that's a dodge.

GRR's picture

GRR

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Witch wrote:

The idea of a kind shepherd, who loves his sheep and cares for them their whole lives, as told in the Bible, is obvioulsy made up by a city dweller who never spent any time around sheep, or shepherds.

 

Do you know what shepherds have for their supper? Mutton stew.

Kinda like those who oppose hunting because every deer is "Bambi", isn't it?

waterfall's picture

waterfall

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Personally I like the analogy of Jesus being the good shepherd.

 

Perhaps we don't like the idea that we need protection, or we're gullible, or dare I say it, "not quite as smart" as Jesus (God).? Our arrogance tends to show when we feel safe.

 

Psalm 23  sums it up beautifully and I believe this was written by a former shepherd.

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waterfall

Yes, I agree. We can call these stories metaphor, midrash or whatever, as we choose. Yet I can relate very literally because I was living alone in a big city as a teenager. Today we see 1000's of homeless teens living on the streets, drugs,prostitution etc. I came from a tiny country village and farm.  I was greener than green,dumber than dumb .  I didn't know anything except that I would follow Jesus and Jesus proved to be a very good shepherd in all honesty and simplicity. I'm still following ........ We loved our farm animals like they were family because they were .

 

Here are a few quotes picked here and there from the net. Some of these I had never heard before. I did read about hireling shepherds who were only in it for the profit. They sold sheep that didn't belong to them;  they were thieves. These would be the shepherds Jesus is speaking about in part. I also read that the shepherds on occasion had to throw rocks at a certain location if a sheep was going astray to stop the others from following. The sheep would turn back. Interesting.....

 

Quotes:

A good shepherd would sometimes have to discipline his sheep. Because fields of grass were sometimes hard to find, the sheep were prone to wander looking for grazing opportunities.

Therefore, the shepherd had to keep constant watch over his flock. One rebellious sheep could lead the other sheep astray. So the shepherd would break the legs of the wayward sheep to prevent it from straying away from the flock and leading other sheep astray.

After this disciplining process, the shepherd would then carry the sheep on his own back to teach the sheep that, even though the sheep needed discipline from the shepherd, the shepherd still loved the sheep deeply. Being carried on the back of the shepherd, the sheep developed a more intimate relationship with the shepherd.

 
 
 
 

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber; but he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the gatekeeper opens; the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers." {John 10:1-5 RSV}

 

In the East, shepherds brought their flocks into one central sheepfold every evening where half-a-dozen flocks gathered together and were guarded by a porter or gatekeeper behind locked doors. In the morning the shepherds returned and each called his own sheep. Although the flocks had been mingled together, each flock knew its own shepherd's voice, and each would follow its own shepherd and no other.

 

 

So Jesus again said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before me are thieves and robbers; but the sheep did not heed them. I am the door; if anyone enters by me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly." John 10:6-10 RSV}

 

What does he mean by this figure, "I am the door of the sheep"? This is a picture taken from the middle of the work day of an Eastern shepherd. The shepherd leads his flock out of the sheepfold to the hillsides where they graze through the morning hours, and then in the early afternoon he provides a temporary shelter built of shrubs where they can rest. This is a corral-type structure within which the sheep can lie, protected from wild beasts, and it has an opening across which the shepherd himself lies so that the sheep cannot go in or out without crossing over him. This is what Jesus means in the words, "I am the door; if any one enters by me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

 

"I am the good shepherd. [He is the true shepherd, he is the door of the sheep, and now he is the good shepherd.] The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. He who is a hireling and not a shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hireling and cares nothing for the sheep. I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me, as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep." {John 10:11-15 RSV}

 

The primary characteristic of the good shepherd is that he loves unto death; he is willing to die for the sheep.

 

A Palestinian shepherd of Jesus' time used simple equipment. He had bag he carried his food in. He had a shepherd's rod with a crook on the end of it. He had a sling shot that was well used, and some rocks. He didn't have much. But he had a heart. The shepherd often tended the same flock of sheep for many years. he got to know them. They got to know him.

 

There being little grass, the sheep were bound to wander, and since there were no protecting walls, no barbed wire (it hadn't been invented yet), that shepherd had to be with those sheep. the sheep had constantly to be watched.

 

You have heard how the sheep in the Highlands of Scotland are rescued when they wander off and become stranded? The vegetation on those high places is pretty spare. And yet, down on maybe a little cliff down below on a ledge down about ten or twelve feet is a little ledge that is grassy. It hasn't been eaten because sheep don't go down there. And some of them will smell that lush grass and they will go down on that ledge, jumping ten, twelve feet, landing on all fours like a cat and they will eat that lush grass. Well now, there's no way they're going to get back up by themselves. Soon their bleating is heard as they try unsuccessfully to return to higher ground.

 

The shepherd does not rush right over to rescue them. He just lets that sheep stay down there on that ledge below. There's no way he can relieve it until all the grass is eaten and until the sheep begins to get hungry and thirsty. There's no water there. Finally the sheep gets so weak that he can't even stand up. At that point, when he's at the bottom of the barrel, the shepherd will come and will lower himself down over that ledge and rescue that sheep. And he knows that if he comes any sooner that stupid sheep, of which we are sheep, will jump over the ledge to its death.

 

And I think often times that God waits until we are at the bottom of the barrel.

 

Years ago my wife and I went to Palestine. They told us about two Bedouin shepherds. A tourist visiting there saw a terrible thing. Two flocks of sheep came on crossed paths and hundreds of sheep got mixed up together. Even worse, they were not branded. It was hopeless. After some confusion, each shepherd went a distance down the road and turned and called his sheep. Instantly the sheep became polarized as each headed toward the voice of its shepherd. They knew that voice.

 

Sheep  in the mountain going to the shepherd
(noisy but interesting, nobody is driving them)
 
 
stardust's picture

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no post  

InannaWhimsey's picture

InannaWhimsey

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Don't mind me, I have the urge to type.

 

The metaphor for the shepherd and the shepherded, the meaning of it, lies WITHIN THE READER and not within the Bible.  The Bible, itself, is dead and non-acting.

 

It requires a reader for the word usages and the meanings to become active.

 

And, then, and, thus, it becomes the reader's own.  It belongs to the reader.

 

And all phrases like "But this is what is meant," "That was the original intention" etc etc still don't place the creation of the meaning and word usage outside of the reader.

 

So then, when this is talked aboot with different readers, it becomes a sharing of Social Games, where people follow other people's meaning and word usages.

 

A titillating one for me that always comes bubbling up is, when I am presented with Jesus as shephard and the Believer as sheep is that of Jesus as an Old One (a la HP Lovecraft), who is waiting until there are enough Believers...then He will return and enjoy a really tasty snack.  But that is my sense of humour :3

 

You better watch out, you'd better not cry, you'd better not pout

I'm tellin ya why

Jesus Christ is comin, to town!


He knows when you are sleepin

He knows when you're awake

He knows when you've been bad or good

So be good for goodness' sake!

stardust's picture

stardust

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InannaWhimsey : " Jesus as an Old One (a la HP Lovecraft), who is waiting until there are enough Believers...then He will return and enjoy a really tasty snack. "

 

You take the cake.......!!!!!.....Red ribbon for you .....1st Place.........Best in Show ....:-)

 

But...but...but....I'm not crazy about your Santa Claus poem!

 

Jesus Christ came to town....He sure helped me get around ... don't you go puttin' him down!

 

 

 

Neo's picture

Neo

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InannaWhimsey wrote:

Don't mind me, I have the urge to type.

 

The metaphor for the shepherd and the shepherded, the meaning of it, lies WITHIN THE READER and not within the Bible.  The Bible, itself, is dead and non-acting.

 

It requires a reader for the word usages and the meanings to become active.

 

And, then, and, thus, it becomes the reader's own.  It belongs to the reader.

 

And all phrases like "But this is what is meant," "That was the original intention" etc etc still don't place the creation of the meaning and word usage outside of the reader.

 

So then, when this is talked aboot with different readers, it becomes a sharing of Social Games, where people follow other people's meaning and word usages.

 

A titillating one for me that always comes bubbling up is, when I am presented with Jesus as shepherd and the Believer as sheep is that of Jesus as an Old One (a la HP Lovecraft), who is waiting until there are enough Believers...then He will return and enjoy a really tasty snack.  But that is my sense of humour :3

I don't mind at all Inanna. I feel like typing also..

 

To me, the whole "I am the good shepherd" sermon and it's collaborating statement "I am the way and the truth and the life", have a lot of meaning to me. It tells me two things:

1) That there is such a thing as a single voice for Humanity. A single focal point where we become as ONE. Christ loved His enemies as much as He loved those close to Him. It made no difference to Him because He knew the truth behind of the Law of Unity.

 

From space the Earth looks as one. This is the same for the kingdom of nature we call human beings, the thinkers. Humanity is one. And thinking in such a larger framework like this requires both love and humility. Love because it is the force in nature that unites and brings together. Humility because many of our attachments regarding existing beliefs about the Universe in general may have to be placed on the table. Service and Love to our fellow humans are the keynotes to our survival.

 

2) The single "Good Shepherd" of the flock doesn't mean that any religions sects who follow the words of this Master has any more "hold" on Him than others. This is, I believe, one those things that Christianity will have to gave way to in the future. The Christ is not here for them, He is here for all of us. It is arrogant and self serving to think otherwise. This is why He says, and in no uncertain terms, that "I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd."

 

Of course, Biblical scholars site the above quote with the children of Israel since Isaiah once referred to these children as sheep. Therefore these must be the other sheep referred to here. Or are they? Maybe it is simply that the children of Israel are also, like everyone else in the world, part and parcel of the one flock we call Humanity. There could many, many, many different "sheep pens" in this world. Much of this is hinted at, for instance, with the many similarities between the life of Jesus and the life of Krishna and all the of other sons of men who knew themselves to be Sons of God.

Anyways, so that's my part in the social game for now,

Cheers.

p.s. HP Lovecraft? I've been hooked on Stephen King lately, I should look for some of Lovecraft.

 
 

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Neo

Great post as usual to InannaWhimsey .  I agree.

John Wilson's picture

John Wilson

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chansen wrote:

I think it was Hitchens who said that the shepherd doesn't look after sheep because he likes sheep - he looks after sheep so he can fleece them and slaughter them.

 

I'm quite content to not refer to myself as a sheep.

 

...but you say "Bah" often...

InannaWhimsey's picture

InannaWhimsey

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Hey Neo,

 

good show, there.  WC is proof positive that together, we are more than our parts.  Lots and lots of connexions provided to build our words around, no?

Diana's picture

Diana

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Neo - I love how you bring a whole new way of looking at Christ, and life.  I appreciate your posts!!

 

I don't like the sheep metaphor.  I am not a sheep.  I'll be the kid who sits sulking in the corner in this social game.   As much as  I really do like all the powerful and positive analogies people have posted here, I can't stop thinking about how sheep have no choices, no minds of their own, really, and have to be guided - or driven - through their day by the shepherd or they end up lost.  I understand that back in the day there were only so many metaphors to pick from....but why this one has so much staying power is beyond me.  It's kind of insulting, imho.

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Panentheism

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To undersdtand one needs to know the social role of shepherds - they were the cowboys of their time - by vocation unclean- not a honorable profession.  Thus it is out of the lesser reality comes care.  It is a rejection of the honor system where position made one honorable thus a challenge to the honor system.  Also the shepherd protected at risk to themselves. 

 

Now sheep - yes we have made sheep mindless thus but that is not the meaning of the metaphor - they are at risk from the elements and wolves etc so protection is the meaning of the metaphor not mindless.

 

Further one needs to know that sheep and goats were very similar and it took skill to see the difference - it as in the tail - one stands up and the other down, so one had to really know the sheep to care for them - again not an easy job.

 

Again knowing social context and history allows us to play with  biblical metaphors and not become fact fundamentalists out of our history and social reality.  We need to get to the depth of the metaphor - for example to be 'fishers of men" is a challenge because fishers were outcast and unclean - one if one was a fisher had to engage in heavy purity rites ( as did shepherds) so that changes the meaning for it is not  a high vocation - it is to hang out at the edges of society to be a fisher or shepherd.

Neo's picture

Neo

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Diana wrote:

Neo - I love how you bring a whole new way of looking at Christ, and life.  I appreciate your posts!!

 

I don't like the sheep metaphor.  I am not a sheep.  I'll be the kid who sits sulking in the corner in this social game.   As much as  I really do like all the powerful and positive analogies people have posted here, I can't stop thinking about how sheep have no choices, no minds of their own, really, and have to be guided - or driven - through their day by the shepherd or they end up lost.  I understand that back in the day there were only so many metaphors to pick from....but why this one has so much staying power is beyond me.  It's kind of insulting, imho.

Thanks Diana. We've had many great posts between us over the years.

**********

If you're not a sheep then maybe you're a ram, the male aspect of Aries. Following others is the last thing that a "true" Aries ever wants to do.

**********

The importance of this shepherd analogy is also tied with the fact that at the time of Jesus the vernal equinox of the Earth was passing over from the constellation of Aries, the sign of the Ram. And it was moving towards the constellation of Pisces, this sign of the fish. Which accounts for why the fish is such a big symbol in Christianity. Note also that the opposite sign to Pisces is Virgo, the Virgin.

Astrology is like the elephant in the church pew. Everyone knows that it's there but nobody talks about it, hoping it'll just go away. Well, it can't go away because all of Christianity's holy days and many of its concepts are based either directly or indirectly on astrology. Whether  ones agrees with it's practice or not, astrology was most definitely believed by the writers of the Bible. The symbols of the Zodiac are older than the writing of Genesis.

The Good Shepherd was also symbolized as the sacrificial lamb. At the time of Jesus, sacrificing the blood of lambs and bulls (a carry-over from the Age of Taurus) was common practice. The church decided that they should change this and moved the sacrifice from an animal to a real person. Hence the concept that Jesus died for our sins and no animals were hurt in the process.

All of this is related to the fact at the time the Age of Aries was passing away and the Age of Pisces was coming into play. The end of the Age of Aries was a time when the two Zodiacs, the seasonal "tropical" zodiac aligned up with the constellational "sidereal" zodiac.

See http://livingmoonastrology.wordpress.com/astrological-genesis/the-two-zodiacs/

 

It was a time that only occurs once every 26,000 years. This is why the "wise men" knew that a saviour was to be born at this time. They had seen His "star".

Anyways, I could go on about astrology and the bible but there is so much on the internet that anyone could find. I have to go and work in the yard now. The nice days are running short and I have a lot to do.

 

Cheers

 
 

stardust's picture

stardust

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Neo : quote from the link:

"The Earth isn’t a perfect sphere but it has rather the shape of a mandarin, flat at the top and bottom (polar regions) and bulgy at the Equator."

 

Great link Neo! So the earth is flat after all ............!!!!!! The bible is full of numerology too, eh?

Neo's picture

Neo

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The Earth isn't a perfect sphere because it's rotating on its axis and the centrifugal force therefore creates the bulge at the equator. {smile}
 

Panentheism's picture

Panentheism

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Neo while you illustrations are interesting and may mean something to you - it is to misuse the texts as astrology - it is true it was part of the world view of some it has no empirical influence.

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Jadespring

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Panentheism wrote:

Neo while you illustrations are interesting and may mean something to you - it is to misuse the texts as astrology - it is true it was part of the world view of some it has no empirical influence.

 

 I don't take from Neo's post that he's suggesting to use the 'texts as astrology'.   I think he's just pointing out and rightly by much of my knowledge of history how 'astrology' and astrological concepts were much a part of daily life, especially in the Mediterranean and surrounding area at that time and quite likely exerted influence on symbols and metphorical usage.   Commonly shared worldviews bleed into metaphors that general society uses.  It happens now so I don't think that it should be surprising or even controversial that it happened then.   Part of trying to dig deep into and understand metaphors and symbols of the past is to try to get into the head and worldview/model of those in the past.   It's hard to do because worldviews and modeling aren't so easy to discern.   

 

Hypothetically if we had a time machine and could bring someone from the past into our time they'd have a problem understanding a lot of our language metaphors and symbols as well.  Actually the same thing even happens when someone from another culture tries to learn our language.....  

 

"Did you hear what Joe did the other day at  corporate ?"

 

 "Yeah I know  he's totally out in left field when it comes to understanding the plays."

 

  "I know, sure missed the goal posts on that one." 

 

   "Yeah, ha ha, he didn't even make a first down." 

 

   "Yeah I heard the big cheese went nuclear when Joe did the power point. "

 

   "Yep gave him a red flag."

  

     "Well Joe did try to mickey mouse it.  I heard he tried to get by with cutting and  pasting a bunch of bits and bytes  from a quick surfing session.    

  

     Ah googling fail then.  

 

    Well I guess his job is really on the ropes.   SOS, SOS! Ha ha

 

    Wonder if it was a knock out blow or what?  

 

    I dunno, maybe he'll get with the program.  I think he needs to sit down and re-write his playbook.    Don't know if he's capable though he acts like a bull in a china shop most of the time.  Bit of space cadet if you ask me.      Might have been enough of a wake-up call though.   

 

    ........ 

 

 Now most people reading that would have a general idea of the gist of the meaning in that conversation beyond the literal words or literal meaning just from living in todays culture.  Most of it happens unconsciously and without much thought because the symbolism of the metaphors is just ingrained.  

       

 

 

 While now in our modern world view astrology is a hobby for some, or a worldview for some, poppycock for some, a new agey 'science' for some or just an interesting bit of history what we wrap up and even label as being 'astrology' was a very common viewpoint and way of looking and explaining the world and how it works.  It was a 'science' of sorts in it's day.    Neo hits on a few specific points about the fish and the ram but there are numerous other examples, not just Christian of religious metaphors and symbols commonally used at the time match up with what was going on in the stars.  For instance if you go back further then that time period during the age of  Leo you find a lot of lion metaphors and symbolic usage.    If you move into other regions where the astrological symbols and 'science' was a bit different you can find the same sort of bleeding into myth and story, religious or otherwise.  (Asia and South America are examples).  

 

Nowadays whatever astrological age we're in doesn't mean much except for those that are interested in astrology whether as a serious subject or just for interests sake though it does bleed a bit into popular culture.  I have the song "It's the Dawning of the Age of Aquarius" running through my mind right now as an example. :)   

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stardust

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Panentheism

Nevertheless it is interesting!

Quotes:

According to Flavius Josephus, the famed Jewish historian, the Jewish temple at Jerusalem had the twelve signs of the zodiac inlaid in its floor. Josephus also stated that the twelve loaves of showbread in the temple was a reference to the zodiac. In modern times, Israel issued stamps with the zodiac signs identified with the twelve tribes of Israel and the astrological symbolism of the temple.
 
Astrology refers to every 2160 years as a new "AGE" which is a different sign of the zodiac that comes into position to influence the Earth. The Bible describes events that will occur according to the signs of the astrological "ages". 
 
 
 
 

Genesis 1:14 "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years:"

 

Genesis 37:9 "And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me."

Judges 5:20 "They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses(transits) fought against Sisera.

Job 38:31-33 "Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth(the Zodiac) in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

Psalms 8:3 "When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;"

Psalms 147:4 "He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names."

Jeremiah 31:35 "Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night..."

Matthew 2:1-2 "...there came wise men(astrologers/magicians)from the east to Jerusalem, Saying, where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him."

Luke 21:25 "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars;..."

I Corinthians 15:41 "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory."

Moses, like Joseph, was well versed in Egyptian astrology. As the adopted son of pharaoh’s daughter he was well educated in all the mystery school wisdom of Egypt. The Hebrew word for Egypt is ‘mitsuri’, the land of mystery. In Acts 7:22 it says, “Moses was trained in all the wisdom of the Egyptians and was powerful in speech and action.” He was the perfect warrior prophet for the Arian age.

Aaron’s breastplate was set with twelve sacred stones each symbolizing a Hebrew tribe, and thus, a zodiac sign. Joshua 4:6 says, “God is remembered by twelve stones in a circle.”

The Age of Aquarius is surely on the rise! Astronomically, the Aries Ingress won’t reach the first stars of Aquarius until around 2376 CE, but the symbols of Aquarius are actually alive in the imaginations of the people.

http://www.divineinspirationastrology.com/html/subhtml/articles/astrology&bible.htm

 

 
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Neo

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Panentheism wrote:

Neo while you illustrations are interesting and may mean something to you - it is to misuse the texts as astrology - it is true it was part of the world view of some it has no empirical influence.

Pan, I honestly don't know what you mean that I'm using the "texts as astrology". The book itself is a testament to how much the writers used the stars in the heavens in their rituals and their inspirations. And this has happened all of the world, in all sorts of religions, both current and defunct. The old Egyptian religion, for instance, built pyramids in an attempt to reconstruct the great constellation of Orion. See http://doernenburg.alien.de/alternativ/orion/ori00_e.php

All I'm saying is that astrology is the elephant in the room as far as organized religions go. Take Easter, for instance. Easter is the most important holy day in the Christian religion. In order to reproduce the fact that Christ was crucified and raised from the dead on the cusp of the Age of Aries, the First Council of Nicaea established the date of Easter as the first Sunday after the full moon of the spring equinox, e.g. when the Sun crosses into the sign of Aries.

 

Now one could, of course, claim that we now know better and that the day had to be established somewhere in the calendar. And this may be so, but the fact remains that astrology is worse kept secret in Christianity. And this is only one obvious example, there are many more subtle examples.

The cross, for instance, is one of the oldest symbols in human history, (and yet for some reason Christians seem to think that it only represents their own religion). For Christians, the cross represents the resurrection of the Christ. But even the cross itself it a "sign" or a symbol extrapolated from the heavens.

 

The four cardinal points in our year mark out seasons of spring, summer, autumn and winter. These four are the original signs of the Zodiac since they are the "signs" of change in our year. Each of these seasons contain three signs each. Thus the Zodiac is made up twelve signs in total, being comprised of three major crosses: the Cardinal Cross, the Fixed Cross, and the Mutable Cross. These three crosses are known, respectively, as the Cross of the Risen Christ, the Cross of the Crucified Christ, and the Cross of the Hidden Christ. Note also while that 3 times 4 equals 12, 3 plus 4 equals 7, the number of "spiritual perfection".

Now I know that for many this all sounds esoteric and deep, but that's the mystery and the beauty of the Bible. The symbolism is there and the signs, no pun intended, are there for anyone to interpret.

One more note, the cross represents the four corners of the earth, the four winds, etc. The image of God, as described by Ezekiel and St. John was borne by four creatures with four faces: "Before the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits ...In the center, around the throne, four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle." See Revelation 4.

 

If one uses the eagle to represent the higher nature of Scorpio, as is so often done in astrology, then these creatures are obviously representations of the fixed cross in the heavens, e.g. Leo the Lion, Taurus the Bull, Aquarius the Man, and Scorpio the Scorpion/Eagle.

 

 

 

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lastpointe

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 I do not think the shepherd and sheep metaphore is to imply we follow mindlessly.

 

It is about the relationship that develops between the two .

 

the shepherd, lives alone for the purpose of caring for his flock.  The flock wouldn't survive without the wits and skill and bravery of the shepherd.

 

The sheep are on a continuous journey of hunting for food.  The hunt for food /nourishment is assisted by the shepherd.  It is he who steers the flock towards better grazing while protecting.

 

The sheep don't follow blindly, they follow out of trust.

 

 we are the flock.  The mass of humanity who are searching for ....... whatever.  WE might choose to go another way and when we get into trouble we can call for help

Jesus is the shepherd, the one that guides us and shows us where what we are looking for is.  We know his voice and believe he will guide us properly.  

 

 

 

 

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Diana

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lastpointe wrote:

.The sheep don't follow blindly, they follow out of trust.

  we are the flock.  The mass of humanity who are searching for ....... whatever.  WE might choose to go another way and when we get into trouble we can call for help

Jesus is the shepherd, the one that guides us and shows us where what we are looking for is.  We know his voice and believe he will guide us properly.  

 

 

This, I like!

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John Wilson

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InannaWhimsey wrote:

Don't mind me, I have the urge to type.

 

 

Well mind me!  have the duty of replying.

 

InannaWhimsey wrote:

 

 

The metaphor for the shepherd and the shepherded, the meaning of it, lies WITHIN THE READER and not within the Bible.  The Bible, itself, is dead and non-acting.

 

It requires a reader for the word usages and the meanings to become active.

 

And, then, and, thus, it becomes the reader's own.  It belongs to the reader.

 

And all phrases like "But this is what is meant," "That was the original intention" etc etc still don't place the creation of the meaning and word usage outside of the reader.

 

So then, when this is talked aboot with different readers, it becomes a sharing of Social Games, where people follow other people's meaning and word usages.

 

 

Drat. Not a single  thing to argue about.

There are probably a thousand different levels of Bible study/knowledge

A thousand levels of acceptance.

 

A thousand flavours.

Mine is shared, probably by few. This cannopt bother me because we all , as you say, own the bible individually.

My entire theology is summed up in the sentence

 

Jesus entire mission was to awaken people to his proclamation that the Kingdom of God was at hand, which results in a more abundent life.

(The more I study the clearer this seems to me.).

 

 

InannaWhimsey wrote:

 

A titillating one for me that always comes bubbling up is, when I am presented with Jesus as shephard and the Believer as sheep is that of Jesus as an Old One (a la HP Lovecraft), who is waiting until there are enough Believers...then He will return and enjoy a really tasty snack.  But that is my sense of humour :3

 

 

James Cameron ("Avatar") says he is producing Lovecraft! Word is it will made your head explode. That and two more films about Pandora. The guy really works.

 

 

[quote=InannaWhimsey]

 

 

You better watch out, you'd better not cry, you'd better not pout

 

And you wont when you figure it out

I'm tellin ya why

And I don't lie

Jesus Christ is comin, to town!

Now at this, dont frown:

 

Stop worrying about guilt and about sin

The 'Town' of Jesus lies completely within.



He knew that you are sleepin

He tried to get you awake

He knows that when you've been  good

It reduces pain and ache

 

 Happy Genius, Master (yet still humble) poet..

 

 

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