Waterfall

In these days of so much information and learning, your question is an important one. You are right in all points. But we can not learn everything. More important, Christians should learn and understand all things that are of God and from God. But, we can not learn everything.

Some things we need to know first, then other things. The first things we need to know as sure as we exist and are real. I think these are known, even before we know our personal self. These things are of a reality, infinite and eternal, which proceeds from the mouth of God as the Word of God. Christ as the Word, is neither the person walking about amongst us nor the scriptures themselves. The Word is Christ existing infinite and eternal, giving giving to us personally alongside us calling us (i.e. the Paraclete) spiritual significance, meaning and purpose to all things we can know.

Consider that we look at things but have extremely poor eyesight. We 'put on' glasses and we see what we could not see before. In regards to the spiritual things referenced in John 3, we look to see, listen to hear, and we grasp to understand and know them. But, by and large, in this life, we do not see, hear or understand. For this reason, the Torah or the scriptures for that matter, are hidden from us even though we may profess to read, understand and know.

When we "put on" Christ, we see, hear and understand what was not seen, heard or understood. This applies to our reading of Torah or of anything else that is of God and from God --- including our self and others.

The first thing is to be Christian by existing as Christian. All other things will be given to us, through Torah, and through all kinds of other spiritually insightful texts. But, it is in seeing, hearing and understanding Christ that we can separate the wheat from the chaff.

We need to know how to and actually put on Christ (till formed spiritually) first. Then God's gifts are ours for the having... including Torah abn scripture.

Well this is how I understand what we should make of things....

Aldo, it just seems to me that we have so many denominations within Christianity that differ with how they interpret the New Testament, yet when I seek out an explaination from the Torah, things seem to become more clear. I often wonder if we should first take our questions to this other source in order to fully understand Jesus' meaning which is often an extension on what he himself spoke on. When we rely on our own interpretations it seems like a recipe for disaster. Christianity seems to be full of "shortcuts" yet the way of Jesus seems to be more intense than we allow. We rest on our laurels and count on "cheap grace" and fail to understand that we are to be as Holy as God. This is harder than most understandings of Christianity, yet Jesus wants this for us too.

The Torah is so imbedded into the Christian story, and that story would be so much richer with that lens. Who knows exactly why the exclusion later? Politics?

But that's the way it's been across history.

Paul tells us, "All scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching,for reproof, for correction, and for training in rightousness,that the man of God, may be complete, equipped for every good work" 2 Tim. 3:16-17

He was of course referring to the Torah while he was writing to the gentiles.

Hi waterfall-- Do you know of any Christain church or christain denomintions . That don't " use the Old Testment to teach?Yes I believe The Old Testment should be studyed an understood. by christains.  To me The Bible is GODS word  all of it.  God Bless ..airclean33

I agree we would be so much richer with that lens.

Hi waterfall

I feel the Old Testament is very important ---it is from this that we gain our foundation of who we are in Christ who is yet to come -----God explains much to us in the Old Testament ----There it shows us just how mere men we used to put on God's super on their natural abilities ------Jesus died on the cross so we could have The Holy Spirit reside in us which gives us all the abilities of doing what Jesus did on this earth -----The Old Testament shows us God means what He says ----obedience is key in the Old Testament as if you disobeyed you could lose your life ----God shows much mercy in the Old Testament  to those who did disobey Him  ---Cain is one of those people ---who killed his brother and then God talks to Cain and curses the ground he walks on  --- then He says this to Cain in Genesis 4 v 15 shown below  ---He protects him ----showing His Mercy ----There was no law against murder so Cain committed no sin in God's eyes --God shows His displeasure of Cain's actions but still protects Him from harm -----

¹⁵ So the Lord said to him, “Not so! Anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” The Lord gave Cain a sign so that anyone meeting him would not kill him.

So there is much to learn in the Old Testament that will give insight to us in the New Testament for instsnce it shows that God actually speaks to us and directs us -----The Holy Spirit is this Person in the New Testament ----

Noah and the Ark ---what wood to use ---how many windows ---doors ---Length ---width ---etc ----

Abraham was directed to leave his family and to go where God directed him ----

The New Testament directing ----God speaks to a disciple Ananias and tells him a street name to which he is directed to go to ---

Believing what God does  is in the Old Testament gives way to believe what the Holy Spirit can do the New Testament  ----

These are just my thoughts on this ---

Peace and all the best in 2014 -----

... those who have studied the Torah have found reason for differntiation just as much....
If God/Christ is within you, that is the most direct, immediate and intimate engagement... everything else is removed and distant... including words written and spoken
Christ pointed to himself not to any writing, the writing was to re-enforce the reality
while utilizing scripture, the instruction was: follow me.... simple instruction when Christ is in you

Good point. I believe the Tanakh consists of 24 books and the protestant old testament consists of 39. Catholics have 46 books and Eastern Orthodox have 51. The Torah consists of the first five books of Moses. Interpretations can vary and the books may be in a different order from what I understand. There is also the Oral Torah which uses the Talmud that includes the Mishna and the Gemara.

An explanation for the Talmud:

http://www.torah.org/learning/basics/primer/torah/gemarah.html

I want to make clear that I am not an expert on any of the above in fact it is my understanding that everyone should have a good rabbi to explain things (we have that in Christ). There are many on this site that know more than I. I'm here to learn along with the rest of you. Everyones input is appreciated.

Hi Aldo -- If  you read Luke 24:-45

	Luk 24:45	Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures,
	Luk 24:46	and said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead,

Aldo if what you just post was how or what Christ was teaching. Why would He say this?  God Bless--airclean33

It would be nice to have Stevie G drop by

Oh that would be wonderful! I always appreciate his insights on Judaism.

The answer to the question posted is Yes.  The short and simple answer is that Jesus was a Jew.  Jesus did not set out to create a new religion: he was an agitater within his community, thus becoming a rebel, an outsider, a leader of many while he lived, and then, in his memory, his followers became leaders and established Christianity.

Jesus was a Jew, according to written accounts in the NT and the Nag Hammadi, as there is no evidence whatsoever that Jesus wrote anything.

The creation of the septuagint Bible that Xians use includes the Torah - which Xians can identify as the first five books of the OT.  And the remainder of the OT is the Tanakh.

So really, this question is irrelevant.  The Torah and Judaism is completely the foundation of Xianity.  

I hear what you're saying Redhead, but have we substituted a washed down version of what Jesus requires from us by regarding the New Testament as a "replacement theology" that ignores the law?  In Mathew 5:20, Jesus tells us "Unless your rightousness EXCEEDS that of the Scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven". Taking up the cross in self sacrifice would exceed all of that, but we instead seem to think that because Jesus did it we don't have to. Why is that? It is done, we are forgiven. Is there still not work to be done?

I'm curious, what do you believe "follow me" means and how do you know how to follow Him? That "simple" instructiion never struck me as all that simple.

Matthew 5:20      ----is all about the Scribes and the Pharisees following the letter of the law ----this will not make you righteous ----you cannot enter the Kingdom of God through the law -----Only through Jesus by Faith will you become righteous and therefore have access to God's Kingdom -----These groups focused on outward things not inward things ---they lost their focus spiritually and Jesus was saying you need to become more focused on the right way ---on spiritual matters which will exceed what the Scribes and Pharisees focus on -----then and only then will you enter God's Kingdom ----

This is what I get from this scripture ----The Bible is a Spiritual Book ----it is all about the way to God's Kingdom Through His Son by Faith ------

Peace

I agree, but does Faith also require an obligation to do anything?  We are still asked to keep His commandments. Loving one another is the fulfilling of the law.

I don't think the scribes and pharisees of Jesus time were limited to the past do you?  

God gave the commandments to show us sin waterfall -----the law was designed to bring us to Jesus -----No one can keep the law ---Jesus came to fulfill the law --He is the only one who was able to keep the laws -----He came to free the Jews from the law -----Faith requires action -----

The Scribes and the Pharisees were Hypocrites

I think it would be interesting to learn the Torah through the eyes Jesus understood it. The lens through which he was taught and brought up in it. It wasn't monolithic either, even then. There were diffent schools of thought operating. The scribes and Pharisees spoken about in the Bible were those who were from a particular school of thought that was dominant in the time and place that was spoken of- but not all scribes and Pharisees. I read an article somewhere, from a Jewish perspective, about how Pharisees have gotten a universally bad rep because of the title alone. My understanding is that those were titles not points of view, and the Bible speaks of a particular behaviour, not universal to all scribes and pharisees- just those in the story. Kind of like a pastor from one denomination of Christianity holds a different point of view/ practice than one from another denomination even though the title is the same. Or, similarily to a lawyer only viewing the law from one rigidly established legal point of view (and not open to new precedents). So the same that was said about those scribes and Pharisees could be said about any professional who holds a rigid, authoritarian, unmovable and often hypocritical viewpoint.

Agreed Kimmio and the Apostle Paul was a self professed Pharisee. I wonder if Jesus would have us understand his teachings from Paul or the Torah?

Perhaps Paul sets a new precedent in interpreting the law, as have other Christians after him. Paul was one person among billions. I don't think he had the last word.

The simple instruction was: follow. The specifics are what is challenging.

But they are discetnable and doable...Unloke the 'earthy' instructions in the Torah, Christian instructions come within, when its said and done.

Christ could have, but did not leave a rule book....

I consider myself a progressive Christian, I also find a lot of informative value in what I've been reading from Reform Judaism sources, and I believe that branches of Islam will one day catch up- there are progressive groups emerging. I think they're moving in the same spirit. If loving God and neighbour encompasses it all, I believe we have to be open to progress that unites, rather than stagnating in rigid unchanging points of view. So, Paul was progressive for his time. We can be for our time- in the same spirit- but with evolving understanding.

How do you know what to follow if Christianity is lawless?

Speaking for myself, not Aldo, it's not lawless. But the laws we make from the commandments to love God and love neighbour (which is like unto loving God) and even loving our enemies, are a matter of conscience. There's enough human history behind us, and enough information available to us, to see what happens when we don't do that. Humanity has made a mess things.

Regardless of where they went spiritually, Jesus and Paul (who was a student under Gamaliel, a leading rabbi of the time) both started out as observant Jews and were shaped by that upbringing. I cannot see how it is possible to understand where they were coming from or where they ultimately went without looking at the Torah and other Jewish writings of their time. Jesus famous comment about not coming to abolish the Law and prophets but to fulfill them (Matthew 5:17-20) pretty much clinches it.

It would be like trying to understand Hellenistic Greek philosophy without first looking at Plato and Aristotle, who were the teachers and seminal influences for pretty much all of the Hellenistic philosophers.

Mendalla

Actually there were about 613 laws and if you broke one law you broke them all ---so if you only once didn't love your neighbour then you broke all the laws God made according to scripture ----

This is one area that the Jewish Bible differs from the Christians.

A Jew would pray and ask for forgiveness and repent and then change their behaviour. No blood sacrifice needed. Contrary to popular belief not all sacrifices required blood. If you couldn't afford an animal offering you could bring flour or something else. It was only an external symbol of an internal change.

Christianity tells us that blood must be offered in order to be forgiven and that we are so sinful that we cannot fix this condition ourselves and that we needed Jesus sacrifice on the cross to do it..

There was certainly blood sacrifice in the Old Testament. It wasn't invented by Christians.

In more pragmatic terms, though, maybe if Jesus hadn't died how he did, the word would not have gotten around so far, and for so long, about how he lived. And had he not died how he did- there would not be the same lessons learned (i.e. if he was just one nice guy who lived a nice life who never challenged the status quo and died of old age- we probably wouldn't know about him). In that sense, history shows us how it was necessary.

I didn't say there wasn't but it wasn't the only form of sacrifice. It wasn't a necessity for forgiveness according to the jewish faith. forgiveness could be obtained through prayer and repentance.

Jewish sacrifices:

http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation2.html

There's the verse from Bob Marley, that comes to mind, "How long will they kill our prophets while we stand aside and look? Some say it's just a part of it, we've got to fulfill the book." But God (Life and living it) desires mercy, not sacrifice. For us to be merciful to one another, not vengeful. Giving life to others, not taking it away. If we all lived like that, forgiving, giving fair opportunity, not exploiting, not warring with others, not pillaging the land, in the global village we live in, the world would become a much better place, I believe.

waterfall    your link   Jewish sacrifices:http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation2.html

Both using Leviticus 17  -----

Check this one out -----

https://bible.org/seriespage/preciousness-blood-leviticus-17

The Preciousness of Blood (Leviticus 17)

For those who think that the Protestant old testament and the Jewish Tanakh are the same, it seems it's all in the interpretation.  Here are two examples.

Christians believe in the Trinity, Jews do not. Christianity seems to have concluded this from reading their Bible and the Jews have concluded that there is nothing to support a Trinity.

The Jewish Bible talks about a Messiah that is still coming. Christianity is waiting for the second coming of the Messiah.

The Jewish Bible teaches that the Jewish people will be sought out by the nations of the world to be their spiritual teachers. This will promote peace and restoration. When this happens a special King will appear (fully human) after the world reaches this Utopia or Zenith.

Christianity believes in the second coming and that destruction will come first before the Messiah returns to bring peace.

Are we all reading the same old testament???

waterfall

if you want to believe what is written in other beliefs ---that is up to you   ---but to mix other beliefs with the Holy Bible only confuses ----you need to believe one or the other ---this is what God says about mixing ----

http://www.openbible.info/topics/other_religions

17 Bible Verses aboutOther Religions

It's interesting isn't it? A Jewish interpretation and a Christian interpretation.

By other beliefs are you referring to the Jewish faith that Jesus himself used to teach us?

These videos and the child singer Abie ( now grown up) make me think about Jesus.

First let me say that in my church and in any other UCC I have been connected with we do read the Hebrew scriptures, Torah, history, wisdom, prophets.  In fact, in the New (or Core) Curriculum which came out in the '60s  one entire year in a three year cycle was devoted to 'God and His World' - the stories of Genesis; the Exodus; the commandments; the judges and kings - and the prophets.  With the lectionary we regularly read from the Hebrew scriptures, study and discuss them, use them in worship. 

Becoming familiar with, reading, seeking knowledge and understanding of the scriptures is very important to me, and others I know.  I consider it foundational to understanding the more recent scriptures.

It's not knowledge one would necessarily pick up on through Sunday sermons about the New Testament though, unless deliberately connected and explained. I know someone who attends UCC from time to time, but this person's theology is explained through what they hear from Joyce Meyer. Nice person, very nice, but I don't agree with their theology. So what they might get from the sermons might be different. Generally, though, the church I attend does a very good job of teaching while preaching sermons.

waterfall    your quote  

By other beliefs are you referring to the Jewish faith that Jesus himself used to teach us?

The Bible accroding to God is God's word ----the Jewish people do not believe in Jesus ---The Bible does ----up to you to believe what you want ----but you can't believe both -----so you need to chose one or the other ---and God warns about other religions ---

First of all the discussion is about Christians knowing the Torah/Tenakh. If I am damned to hell for asking questions, then I prefer a judge that shows mercy and rightousness.

Christians will always see Jesus in the Old Testament. Jews do not. They didn't read Jesus into the scriptures 30 or even 100 years before Christ was born, and they don't do it now either. In fact they say we Christians have mined certain passages to fit with Jesus being the Messiah without reading the whole chapter or book.

I would say that God is in control and there is a reason for everything.

That's wonderful Seeler. Did you find you were able to understand Jesus' teachings and parables better because of studying the Hebrew Bible?

Knowing the lectionary often used offers selections from Older Testament, Psalm, Epistle and Gospel I have to say I have been surprised.Actually, shocked is more truthful. It seems that sermon writing folks prefer to draw from the Newer Testament. It also seems that when they do there is not much bridging of the gaps between Older and Newer. This morning as I approached the Holy Family fleeing to Egypt, it was important to me to draw on what Matthew did- the Hebrew history.

It meant talking of the significance of Egypt in their culture, stories and history. It meant talking about the Moses stories. Because, this is the lens of the storytellers, listeners, authors. .. It is how Matthew goes from old covenant to new. This is how he adds on and does not merely move on, negate or usurp.

Sure folks in my congregation had heard of the events (all of their lives)but there was, I am told, something new and refreshing. .. so much to feel and think upon. .. and the kicker is that it is because of the old.

How did you bridge the Old Testament with the Jewish people coming and going out of Egypt and Jesus coming and going out of Egypt in the new testament. Mathew only used part of the text when he references Hosea doesn't he? Is Mathew using Midrash or an analogy with this explanation or do you feel the events in Hosea match with Mathews? Or is this another case of Christians reading Jesus into every old testament scripture?

This is hard for me to say, Waterfall.  As far back as I can remember, I have always heard or read from both parts of the Bible and I don't know what it would be like to hear Jesus teachings or parables without having a background for them - even though I don' always analysis them against that background.   It is probably only in the last 20 years or so that I can relate the stories of David crying for his son Absalom, Hosea comparing God's love for Ephraim to a father's love for his children, to Jesus parable of the Prodigal son - all being about the same thing - God's love for us.  Absalom raised and army against his father; Ephraim strayed from following their God, the Prodigal son 'wasted his substance in riotious living' - yet in each cast the love remained steadfast, yearning to welcome them back.

Clearly set down and clearly revealed... the mind of Christ is written in our hearts and on our minds... not in the 'rule' books... within is the law of God being the mind of Christ. There was a real good reason not to leave behind a 'rule book'. The 'rule book' would tempt people to use it in place of Christ. There is no other rules/laws other than Christ present to us here and now in our hearts and on our minds ---- not in the rule book.

Christianity is not lawless ... it is governed by the mind of Christ, which is not to be confused with texts of any sort...