Why is having a church so important to you? Any faith will have hidden rules and exclusions.

Really, do yourself a favour, step back, and evaluate - what does religion give you that your community centre and circle of friends can't?

Hi,
You could attend a United Church a few times to see if it's for you, before making any big decisions.
MM

The way to decide if you should join the united church or not is go to some sevices, see what they are like and if they are right for you.

I guess there are various reasons for wanting to join a church. Wanting to expose your kids to a moral compass seems reasonable to me. I guess the question I would ask is - what does the church stand for? By expressing a desire for a moral compass that assumes that the church has a strong set of absolute spiritual values or beliefs, and not a list of "relative" discussion points. Although I think this site is fantastic and attractively organized, I am afraid the church itself seems to be lacking such clarity. I am not attending church presently, but if I was I would want to know that the church is going to add more clarity to my family discussions about the possible existence of a caring God and the spiritual path than it seems the United Church offers. My guess is that this fuzziness is a problem for many and that is why the UC is not attracting new members. I think, going back to the moral compass question and liberalism, that the lack of "absolutes" does work against the church providing the "moral compass" that parents desire for their children and people are wanting for themselves.

I'm glad your liberal ass left the Holy Catholic Church the last thing the Church needs is your liberal crying. WHAAAAA WHAAAAAAAAA. God's appointed church doesn't let gays marry WHAAAA WHAAAAAA I don't like rules WHAAAA WHAAAAAAAA I want to do what I want how I want to and in the end I want to go to heaven WHAAAA WHAAAAAA God's laws? I don't like following them. It's toooooo hard WHAAAAAA WHAAAAAAA I want to find a denomination that let's me act and do whatever I want and no matter what I do they will tell me God says it is ok WHAAAAAA WHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

Well then the United Church is for you.

If you are pro-choice and pro-gay you presumably believe you can deny holy scriptures and religious teaching. In that case, why be religious as all?

I believe we are all children of a loving and powerful creater, that we can build a personal relationship with. This creator is more than willing to consider our terms as we enter this relationship.

I think that's all that's needed to start.

Hi Onthefence,

I'm a young woman who was raised in the United Church. In my family it was imperative that we attend the services every Sunday, and that continued up until the day I left home for University.

As a child I didn't see the point, but did enjoy the social aspect of meeting up with friends every Sunday (often to skip church & go to the park...but I digress).

Now, I no longer attend the services more than a few times a year. But I agree whole-heartedly with the UCC & the direction they are taking. They have always fostered geniune, open discussion & debate, and I have found that outside of the regular services, the community is full of people who are searching for spirtual growth & seeking to better themselves as human beings. This website is another apparition of that goal.

Although I am not an active member on Sundays, my family enjoys a close relationship with our minister in the church. We have had many frank & brain-stretching conversations over glasses of wine; they've provided me with a place to explore ideas openly and honestly. It was those conversations that brought me to this website today - they just don't happen on a daily basis at work!

The day that I have my first child is the day I will return to the formal Sunday services. Like you said, I want to foster an open mind & heart, strong values, and especially "questioning" in my children. And the UCC is a great place to accomplish that.

Bear in mind that the individual churches within UCC are all different, with varying levels of liberality & modernism in the service. You may want to visit a few before you make your decision.

Cheers,
C

Join a church which confesses that Christ Jesus is Lord and that God has resurrected Him from the dead. Any church that puts itself above the wisdom of God has fallen from grace.

Okay, wow. I echo the sentiment that every United Church is different and you should likely hit up a few before deciding anything. The whole thing with the UCC is that the "United" doesn't mean "uniform" - much to the consternation of church growth people at head office, I'm sure. The "United" is rather a sense that there is some wiggle room in our interpretations of the Christian faith and we can remain united in spite of them. Yes, agreement on the essential things (and here I would say some have pushed the bounds), but generosity and patience and grace in the non-essentials. Brian McLaren's "Generous Orthodoxy" is a great book BTW. The UCC is a big umbrella church, and I think that's a spirit worth celebrating, even if it does make it hard to say "this is us, this is what we believe, join us or not". Wait... isn't Canada itself kinda like that?

As a member of the UCC family I am all ways amazed at the difference that each church has. Yes the beliefs are are all the same, but the minister and the congregation really makes the difference. You need to attend a number of churches in your area and check them out. you will find a congregation that will suit your family and needs. Remember, Church is what you make of it. I am a male that is 40 years of age and did not attend church from the age of 16 to 35 but I came back to the church I grew up in and it was like i never left. It felt really good.Get involved and it becomes an extended family. there are people to lean on.

When you are ready to "join", you will. For now, I think you should go church shopping just like you would for anything else important. Until you feel that this might be the family you are looking for. Then start to attend regularly and get involved. Ask and God will take care of the rest.

Onthefence,

Hi.

You wrote:

"I believe we are all accepted by God no matter what choices we make in life."

I agree that as a starting point all of us are accepted by God. I also believe that the choices we make do not have the power to separate us from God's love. I don't believe that God accepts everything we do. If we choose to reject God I think the choice is respected but the consequences of that choice are pretty grim. I believe that God is content to accept us as we are but that God is not content to let us remain as we are.

You also wrote:

"Is it as liberal as it seems or is there hidden rules and exclusions like the catholic church."

My experience with the United Church is that both sides of the theological spectrum (left/liberal or right/conservative) can and do like to set up rules which exclude. You would probably have to visit a few congregations in your area and explore the atmosphere to see how you feel you would fit in.

We have a pretty good share of moderate folk who are flexible and would be liberal on some issues and conservative on others.

John

Please,don'tj oin the United Church of Canada. My mother was a minister there and even at the "Pastoral" level she found utter hypocricy. A church built on Half truths on top of half truths on top of half truths and so on....sort of a whatever feels good, gets you to church, helps you feel vindicated for what you know is wrong, or even what the Bible says is wrong. Take the Bible at face value!! Join a strong Bible believing church. Some great to churches to consider? Alliance, Baptist, Pentecostal, Vineyard, Evangelical Free, Evangelical Missionary, Church on the Rock, Ministers Fellowship International,(actually a fraternity of Pastors but with good Bible based doctrine), Christian Feloowship Assembly, Assemblies of God, where do you live, I'll get you in touch with someone right away who can help you with your problems, you'll experience the love of Jesus , and recieve Bible based advice that will change your life. It changed my Mother's life, and mine too!!! May God bless You Richly

onthefence

I was raised in the the United Church, literally. My parents were the custodians of our congregation for over 20 years and my Mother was very involed in the UCW and the Church School. We always attended services and other than the brief period when I was living in remote Northern Ontario I have always attended a United Church and foud in the UCofC all of the qualities that you desire.

Your profile indicates that you are in Ontario, and I fully agree with some of the other advice that has been given here. If possible you should attend several congregations in your area as each congregation has its own personality and style. When you find one in which you feel at home you will know you have found your church home.

I attend a congregation in the core of Toronto and not only will you find the congregation welcoming and supportive of your stated goals, but also very active in supporting the needs of the community which we serve. I don't think you will find any exclusions or hidden rules but a very welcoming home.

I am going to talk without reading what other people have written. I was rasied in the UC, but always questioned and always wondered what else was out there. I have taken it upon myself to look into a variety of other religions and to talk to a number of wonderful people who helped answer a lot of the questions i had. I was recently confirmed into the UC and i am happy with the choice I made, I guess what I am trying to say is that having a religion is not nearly as important as having a faith. If you have faith then even if you decide the UC isnt for you your kids will probably grow up with fine morals. If you want a religion find something that makes you happy. You dont have to agree with everything that they say (I actually believe that you shouldnt agree with them on everything) what you have to find is an openness that you are comfertable with. Are you able to ask questions and recieve honset heartfelt answers? Are your kids larning in Sunday School as well as having fun? Find what is important to you and make sure you dont settle for anything less. Good luck on your journey!

To onthefence (since it was her question, of course),
What is the church? If you see the United Church as a whole, it seems you can definetely relate to the morals and the direction it is taking. As for people saying that the United Church lacks clarity (as SteveJohn put it), well what is the church? We are many people, and many people like you, searching for answers, setting ourselves morals and guidelines through scriptures and the teachings of Jesus. We are searchers. There is no one leader of the United Church who has all the answers, and is going to spell it out for you. I see our church as a gathering of people searching together for these answers to life and how to live it out. Just think metaphorically for a bit. If we are the gathering I speak of, all interconnected to eachother to search for these answers, would any of us fall off cliffs? or be trapped by some sort of obstruction? or drown in the crossing of a river? Together, we can stand strong against the obstacles that may even at times plague us. Now don't get me wrong. We are not The Blob, coming to consume everything in the world. I offer no pressure for you to join the United Church. I pray there isn't anybody from our church saying "if you don't join, you will burn in hell." Things may only seem hazy if you think you are going to get one straight-forward answer, which will never be the case, with any religion for that matter. Take it as you like it. How could we possibly give you one absolute answer to all your questions? As sylviac put it:

"Any church that puts itself above the wisdom of God has fallen from grace."

Who are we, as mere humans to presume that what we say has absolute truth? Maybe that's my main reason for not liking the Catholic Church because of their Pope. He is no closer to God than any of us. But that's off topic. Another quote (because I love quoting), cindee said:

"Bear in mind that the individual churches within UCC are all different, with varying levels of liberality & modernism in the service. You may want to visit a few before you make your decision."

I absolutely agree. Because we are a gathering of people, and it takes time for communication, and some might just not listen to the rest, please do not judge the whole United Church on one congregation you may have visited. But that is the best way to figure out if the UCC is for you. Have a visit. Mingle after the service, stay for coffee or tea. Maybe even talk to the pastor if you have any major concerns. I hope you find happiness wherever you go.

I can't tell you what to do so I'll just tell you what happened to me...

I went through a lot of troublesome life experiences within a short period of time. Deep in the back of my mind, I knew I needed to find 'religion' as I had never been raised in it. Because of that, anything was possible for me... islam, Christianity, judaism... etc.

So, I talked to a lot of people. I read a lot of websites of different faiths. I even did those little relgion selecter quizzes you find online. I slowly narrowed it down to two: Quakerism and the United Church.

I slowly started visiting the United Church. I was very uncertain so it took me quite some time to warm up to it. Eventually, I just felt so welcomed and loved by people who were basically strangers to me that there was no looking back.

Even now, if I visit another U.Church in a different part of the country, I am welcomed with open arms. In my view, there is no better way to experience Christ!

PS I like the open mindedness of the church best! No ideals shoved down your throat... everyone experiences the love of God differently.

I wish you luck on your journey!

On the Fence,

First of all, thank you for asking some of us to share our experiences of church with you, and sorry you deal with people's ADVICE about what you should/shouldn't do, since that's not what you asked for.

I was raised in the United Church as well, and I have to admit I've never had a regular church experience with any other denomination. That's not to say that I've never worshipped anywhere else, because I have and have had beautiful experiences doing so. However, my grandfather (who is a United Church minister) once encouraged me to learn everything there was to know about our church before considering leaving it for another faith (I was particularly interested in unitarianism and Bahai in high school) to make that decision with any integrity.

Here I am, 15 years later, and a candidate for ordination in the United Church next year. I agree with the other UCC folk who have responded to your question that you can and will find a wide wide variety of experience, theological understanding, and sense of mission in the church. One of the things our congregations are being encouraged to do is to put as much information as possible on this site so that seekers of church community can learn by researching a little the wide variety of congregations who belong to (what I feel is our great) United Church. This is one of the things I love about the UCC. I was having a discussion with a classmate about WonderCafe and Emerging Spirit (the division of the church who came up with the idea to do WonderCafe). She was panicked because congregations had yet been "taught" what they were supposed to do differently to prepare for new people to visit us after we issued the invitation. That's the great thing! Nothing! We're just being who we are in all our wonderous diversity and struggling on the road of discipleship together, and turning outwards and saying you're welcome to join us.

We're not trying to be something we're not, which means that we are fallible, inconsistent, and wonderously diverse. I celebrate that about us. Where one congregation's position might challenge me, I also may have great admiration for the way I see them doing God's mission in the world.

Thanks for asking us to share the experiences we've had. I hope you find your way into a congregation that just loves you, and who you can love back as well!

Blessings on your journey.

Carmen.

Maybe the united church is for you or maybe you should stay where you are.All churches have their positives and negatives.Does it really make any difference in your relationship to God? The fact of the matter is alot of people who are liberal keep going to the catholic church.They use condoms, divorce , are gay, beak sin after sin every second day like most of us but they keep going and there is a seat for them. Maybe christains should be more like the moslum faith. Moslums recogonize that people are on different paths but they are all leading in the same direction.I may disagree with the goings on at my church or some of its fath issues but that doesnt mean that I should leave. Do we want everyone thinking the same way in a church. I think not. Diversity yet respect for each other and agreement on love of God is what is essentially important.

If you can, visit several United Churches before you make any decision. United Churches are really very "congregational" - while they are part of the big denomination they have a life and a personality of their own. United Churches are not cookie-cutter uniform. Go to the U C website www.united-church.ca and look for Song of Faith - the latest statement of faith. I think you will find few "rules" in United Churches but again each congregation has some freedom to create its own rules and still be in the family.

No. The united church has lost it's way. They turn a blind eye to God. All they want is their donation plates to fill up, and they'll compromise all of their principals in order for that to happen.

onthefence, you don't like rules? perhaps you like chaos.

greg What is your definition of love. So many kinds of love like I love my dog, I love my car, What is the real deep meaning of love?

greg just to clarify my asking you the question of what is love. When Jesus asked the young men to sell all he had and give to the poor. He couldnt do it. Does this not mean his possession were more important to him than the love of Christ?

Actually - It says the rich young ruler went away "very sad" in the gospel according to Luke. It doesn't say he went away sad and couldn't do it. He may well have, he may not have. We just plain don't know.

I've been everywhere in terms of faith communities and the United Church is the place to be. Make yourself at home!

I agree that the United Church is the place to be!

I don't agree with everything, but it is the most open, accepting church that I know of. Those who cast stones (and the United Church gets alot thrown its way) obviously don't feel its for them, but many have never even been involved. They are outsiders looking in! So to them, I say, "stop the judgement!" God Almighty is our judge and our hope!

And concerning the diversity within the Church, that is also good, as there is a place for everyone. It depends on the particular community and it body of believers (and searchers), how conservative the congregation is. I have visited a lot of churches and I have never heard a "fire and brimestone" sermon even from the most conservative/evangelical United Church.

I suggest that you visit more than one United Church in the community and visit each one more than once and I guarantee you will find your place!

Peace

I think you should join. We went church shopping and our first one was a United Church. We loved it and are continuing to go. We even had our daughter baptized in it.

i was raised catholic myself, and i left because of the refusal of the pope to allow women to become priests. i also was frustrated with the decisions regarding homosexuals and same sex marriage by the catholic church. once i had daughters, i just didn't feel right taking them to a place that told them they were inferior to others simply because they didn't have a penis.

i joined the united church about 5 years ago now, and i've never been more satisfied in my spiritual life and with my relationship with god. i truly feel that this is the place that god has called me to be. and my kids are so happy to go to this church as well, which is GREAT... i always HATED going to church as a child.

I agree with MusicGirl. Id' add: Don't sign on the dotted line until you get a handle on the minister and the congregation. If you are progressive/liberal - or traditional/conservative for that matter - then listen - REALLY listen - to the sermons/prayers and see if their take is the same as yours. Does the congregation sound on board? Keep in mind, too many parking lot meetings take place after Official Board, and those are the gatherings which tell the real story. Church-shop as they say. Drive the extra distance if you have too. Make it worth your while ... Jesus didn't stop and erect a building.

Justasking......thanks for the lead in
- REALLY listen - to the sermons/prayers and see if their take is the same as yours.

Justasking; At our church all the sermons are printed and then posted on our web site www.bhuc.ca
You'll have to input the URL as I don't know how to make the linc with the underlined. And you are very welcome to "shop" our church. Also our coffee time and discussions in our Fireside Room predates Wondercafe.

Fairway

Ever think about why you believe in God? What is God to you? Is God, the way you believe him/her, the way you were told when you were a Christian...if so, I don't think you are being fair to yourself or your future children if you just decide to change churches because of the "rules" and what not. If you believe in the God of the Bible then you should very well follow the Bible. The thing with us humans is that we think we can just make up our own God. If you are going to believe in the God of the Bible then do that-the God of the Bible wants you, the believer, to follow his rules (not the rules of the church). Now if those rules do not "fit" with you then you should explore other religions (besides Christianity-you did mention that you were exposed to various other religions, didn't you? Well, there are millions of denominations within Christianity. But then there are also a million different religions out there too. Ever think of paganism? The Craft or Gnosticism? They seem suitable to you and your goals and beliefs from what I have read in your blurb...

I think that here is a united church close to you that will provide exactly what you are looking for. It is a church that will accomodate you as both your faith and your knowledge grows. It is a church where your growth and your questions ar welcomed. My wife came from a devout Catholic family. She perceived some of the same shortcomings there as you have. She feels welcome and her spiritual aspirations are accomodated in the United Church. I am a lifelong member and a lifelong questioner. The United Church is a church that does not seek to limit my seeking.

If you are truly seeking a religious/spiritual home within the Christian faith - go denomination and church shopping. Not all United Churches are the same, and there are some really lovely Anglican congregations. You will know your home when you find it.

Good luck!

Onthefence

If you are still reading this fairly old thread then I would agree with those who suggested that you look around at different United Congregations. If you are looking for a mainstream liberally minded Church for you and your family you likely aren't going to find a better match.

I'm actually not a Christian at all but my wife and children are members of UCC. I attend from time to time for special events and I'm always welcomed.

Those in the thread who were bad mouthing your decision to leave the Catholic Church or bad mouthing the UCC, are likely Evangelicals. They hate UCC because it tolerates diversity and encourages its members to think for themselves. Evangelicals are afraid of free thinkers, it is easier if an old White Guy tells you the "truth" every Sunday. It's easier but its mind numbing.

Good luck to you on your journey.

Holden

The above post is disgusting, hateful, and offensive. Not to mention contrary to the UCC and the whole of Christianity.

And I'm asking that it be deleted.

-- origionally posted by micheals ---

THE GLBT COMMUNITY IS SINFULL AND DOES NOT DESERVE THE RIGHT TO HAVE CHILDREN NOR THE RIGHT TO GET 'MARRIED'!! SO THERE YOU HAVE IT THIS IS THE THRUTH!!
____________________________

for heavens sake, QUIT YELLING AT ME!!! turn off the caps lock, okay?? sheesh.

now, i do not interpret the bible as a condemnation of homosexuality whatsoever. so, for me, the truth is that yes, the glbt community has the same rights as i do, as a heterosexual, to get married and have children. i am a UCC member, and a true christian.

that is my truth.

Another Fundy on a soapbox obsessed with Gay sex... What're the odds?

hey, we haven't had one in a long time.

well, not since blackbelt came back, anyways...

^ but at least blackbelt knows not to shout, and though we disagree with him, blackbelt does try to back up his arguments, unlike this guy.

Lord Tunderin Jesus! Where'd that come from, bye?

Yes blackbelt is at least a worthy adversary most times. I've not seen anything from this person worth debating.

I will give it the ol' college try though.

Incidently, does aanyone know where that phrse "college try" comes from? I suspect it has to do with rugby but I've not been able to come up with anything definative.

I think you're right, witch, about the rugby reference.

Onthefence--just curious what you think of the replies. There must be a lot of food for thought.

And who is 'hey' who had that early, brain-fart post. That was just weird. And as a former RC (and I guess still a sentimental one), I don't think he was accurately reflecting Catholic doctrine.

One more thing (hey, 3 in a row!):

If anyone uses a Mac, I can probably write an Applescript that will turn michaelsconber's posts into lower case.

I can just hear the folks at Apple Canada: 'How come the sudden increase in sales among UCC members?'.

like mac users aren't religious enough already lol

big wink back at you :-)

--- origionally posted by smote ---

Lord Tunderin Jesus! Where'd that come from, bye?
_______________________

aye don't aknow, capt'n... it jest came owtta nowhere, fired at us, an dissapprd....
ay've ne'er seen ana'ng leek it.

I' be a dark ship, I' be.

She's saile these waters a'fore though. We seen her risin' outta the mists, clean as yer sister, and dark as the admiral's cold heart.

It be a black day indeed fer a sail-by postin' from that ghost ship, ye mark my words...