Oh yes, Rishi. I think the Devil is a metaphor for the ungodliness in us, and Christ a metaphor for the godliness in us.

When we abuse our godly power of creativeness in a selfish, egocentric, ethoncentric or even anthropocentric manner, then we act ungodly.

When we use our godly power of creativeness in the full awarenss of our godliness, in unitive love for all of creation, and for the benefit of all of creation, then we act in a godly manner.

The potential for godliness and ungodliness is there, in all of us. Which way we act is largely a matter of awareness. That's why it is so important to attain an experiential awarenss of our unity with God.

But even mystics, prophets, and saints can and do act ungodly at times, and sinners godly. If we strive for the unitive awarenss, and act directly from the untive love which this awarenss engenders, then we can't go too wrong.

"God, create in me a pure heart, and give me a new and certain spirit." This is one of my favourite prayers.

No one else has any sympathy for the Devil topic?

None what so ever.

Bolt

I guess that's what I get for quoting Mick Jagger....

But seriously, Bolt, do you, as a conservative Christian, think that when the Bible speaks of Satan that it can be metaphorical?  Even if you believe in a literal entity, a being, called Satan, couldn't it also be a metaphor, such as, for example, when Jesus says to Peter:

"Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men." (Mark 8:33)

Very good point rishi.

I believe satan exists & is a real threat to those who are not spiritual in the Christ sense.

I don't mean to be so short with my previous answer as not to have sympathy for satan but as I see him, he is not very sympathetic to anyone.

He deserves no sympathy, & my responce is in no way to give the impression that you feel that he does.

We all know that Peter is not satan, at least I would hope not.

Jesus was responding to Peter in such a way to say that satan is he who serves himself, & his deception, this service to the carnal world.

For one to take on this character, is not in service to the things of God but the things of the flesh.

This was an attitude of influence by satan. The rebuke was intended for satan because of the inflluence he had on Peter for accepting & uttering that attitude.

Peter lacked the understanding of this, he caught on though.

Bolt

I think we did the devil in awhile back.

Jesus did the devil in,,, not "we".

Only by Jesus' authority do we have a hope to defeat him on our own behalf.

Bolt

I meant here on this forum. Look in the archives.

Interesting. So you did in a thread in which satan was referanced?

Would you be so kind as to paste a link?

Some may find satan to be a interesting fellow so I would think referance to him would pop up from time to time.

Bolt

I'm always curious when a new poster starts a topic, that has been done in the past, he is reminded that it has already been done.

This kind of response strikes me as one of ownership such as all of "us" have already done this so get on with something new for me/us.

What about all the new posters since that topic was over? What about all the new users who are just reading? Most people don't have time to be sitting around all day in front of the computer searching the multitude of archives.

Just a point that I have seen forever on here. It sounds so exclusive.

The choice is yours to read or not read a redundant post for you.

Be Blessed,

IB

Here is one of the threads posted by me. The Devil- April 23/09. Just type it into the search box.

In "A New Earth" by Eckhart Tolle, he explains how the word "sin", when traced back to its origins, means "To miss the meaning of life"

In Donald Miller's "Blue Like Jazz" he states that essentially what "the devil" wants is for us (humans) to be wasting time.

these two seem to go hand in hand, as all there is is the moment, and through the ego we create seperation from the moment, from our true selves, and from God if you will.

While on the topic, in my opinion heaven is essentially the same as nirvana, but coming from a different cultural context, and to live in hell is to live a life separated from god, or your true self.  Why this creates such "hell" is most likely because it is impossible to seperate ones self from all that there is.  If all there has been, all there is and all there ever will be is one, ofcourse it will be hell trying to create two.

On a similar note, I often wonder if life without separation is possible.  It seems to be a natural part of human existence, the key is to be aware of your mind/ego/devil that is creating the suffering, and be above and beyond it. 

What do you think?

Josh

Hi Josh,

Did you just drop out of heaven yesterday to make that post?  Hope you stick around.

Rishi

haha, it could very well be "heaven" that led me to this website.  Things usually seem to come into my life at the perfect moment, life is great!  I hope to stick around it is nice to have a place to talk about real things when there is alot of fake things going on elsewhere.

Josh

What do I think?

That's what I think, Josh! Welcome to the wondercafe family!

Thankyou!

Welcome Joshua. Nice to have you on board.

Thanks , you're all very welcoming.

Why does the devil have to be a metaphor?  What purpose would that serve?

Well it doesn't have to be... but one advantage of using it as a metaphor is that it helps us understand complicated things we do (like evil things) in a deeper way.

That's a good question.  "the Devil" does not necessarily HAVE to be anything.  But it seems that most people have this image of a red demon-looking creature surrounded by flames in a burning pit somewhere 'down there', and this can often make people question "where did that whole idea come from?" and "isn't that a little bit ridiculous?"

A reason for the devil to be a metaphor is because it is something we cannot understand.  All words and all labels must therefore be metaphors because they merely imply something, but do not fully capture a meaning. 

When the devil is seen as an objective being to be met sometime in the future if a person does not "follow the rules", this causes people to live a life in fear, not love, ironically making them live a life in "hell". 

When the devil is seen as a seperate person or creature, people end up looking outside of themselves to witness the devil, and end up pointing fingers at everyone except for themselves, overlooking the devil within them. 

"Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?"

-Jesus

We use metaphor to talk about things which we cannot understand.  We do not know the devil, but we can experience the devil through ourselves as we can experience God.

Hope to have helped,

Josh

You said it!

Josh

Mohammed—whose name be praised—instructed his followers to teach by way of analogy.

Metaphorical speech or "flowery language" is an ancient Mid-Eastern tradition, and is still considered good form in most Mid-Eastern cultures. Literal-minded Westerners who take the Bible literally seem to forget that it originates from a region and culture where metaphorical speech was and still is the preferred way of teaching.

What a wonderful post. Beautifully explained.

I often feel that God is the All, and 'evil' is the no-thing. It is what exists in our separation from God. Whether it be due to worldy obsessions, projected fears,

This is not to say of course that there aren't bad situations that arise, but those situations arise out of a distancing from God. Unfortunately, those situations often affect the innocent, they are like victims in a drive-by shooting.

Incidentally, one of my favourite Nag Hammadi Quotes is from Thomas~ "You see the sliver in your friend's eye, but you don't see the timber in your own eye. When you take the timber out of your own eye, then you will see well enough to remove the sliver from your friend's eye."

Elena, welcome to Wondercafe! I agree with your profile statement about sin "as missing the mark". Like you, I see God in terms of feeling connected. When we're unaware of God's presence we feel disconnected from all that is around us.

Well I seem to be the odd man out for the most part because I believe in the theology of an old testement lucifer/satan, & a new testament lucifer/satan.

To try to make a long story short, in old testament writings, many who were touched by God had changed thier names.

I find this interesting in a way.

It describes lucifer as once a creation of beauty, a wonerdous creation with abilities & talents.

But when this abilty got the best of him & saw it as an advantage to try to obtain Absolute Power.

For the mere thrown of God is Absolute, & for it to be corruped, would mean disaster.

For me, this is an important parrallel within the realm of life as it is here on earth.

Now unto God he is a mere hinderance to all that enlightens. his name is satan & that is the name he is given & as you see me spell satan is all I know as to call him, but some may call him by a different name.

The thing is, He was once named, lucifer, but now he is named satan.

Why?

Why were old testament men of valour names changed?

Perhaps  under an enlighened state there became a different role one has to play as either an agent of enlightenment, or an agent of deception?

At least it seems to show itself in this way, to me thus far.

Bolt

can i just say here how HAPPY i am to see you post something like this, bolt??  i have honestly found your posts SO MUCH MORE respectful lately, and it is a pleasure to read them.

i just wanted to say that.

back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

That is a very lovely & thoughtful thing to say Sigh, Thanks.

Bolt

I wonder, in order for something to be "sinful", it has to be seperate from the world, and in what sense is that 'true'?

If it is a matter of absolute truth, some state of existence lying outside of myself, then something can be "sinful", I think.

But if it is a matter of my perception, my choice, then I am involved in the "sinfulness" of the object.

Or something like that.

Just a Self-writing poem,

Inannawhimsey

Awesome!

The thing is, isn't this what sin & deception is supposed to show us? The opposed nature of God & what is considered "good"? & acceptable under an "Absolute Power".

Would not sin & corruption have the same effect in heaven as it is on earth?

Great riff BTW.

Bolt

Hi Elena: Welcome to wondercafe!

Yes, I too see sin as the absence of godliness or God-connectedness in our lives.

All this the world well knows, yet none knows well

To shun the heavens leads men to this hell.

-Shakespeare

If God is sheer unadulterated love ... could such unlimited desires be painful to the surroundings?

Would a th'ought bedevil a passion fantasy? It is something perhaps that should be given some pondering and not taken as clear thought for that could be pathe' logical to man, a apinful way out of the balance!

If we live in a world of free Love with thought oppressed ... would that name our pains? Then what's in such a name as to refer to another post ... everything? It has to make Luci Fur boil, swell with a new idea on how to balance the scales ... you see love gets too much attention form Belle's perspective, an old word for the devil that the Arabs embraced ... infin-dell a brae'n wave on how to escape the hell God created without a thought. But you couldn't tell Amon such a thought could you? As quated above the Arabs discovered a fine way the flowery language of the story to circumvent the Macedonian (and Roman hammering)  wah! Black-out from whine, women, song and all such adictions without Theo in balence? Attica in ancient Greek tradition ... heh-Ur space .. projected recess of the mind ... a rest 've Lite Eumerus! Exploding plasma ... if oppressed---Freud/Jung (youthful chill). It's all in th' w'rd (court) of imaginary fields ... like electomagnetics you can't see but know they are there by roue of habeas corpus ... what surround s'eM's a mystery!

Hi Bolt, I prefer the name Beelzebub for satan. I also think the names bogeyman, grim reaper and serpant work nicely.

I thought the devil gave up trying to steal souls after he lost that fiddle made of gold down in Georgia.

Is that the way you see it?

Bolt

Maybe things that only exist in thought are separate from the world?

yes, I think so. Very painful, especially if the surroundings don't want to cooperate with that.

I have such a tricky time sometimes navigating how one, as a Christian reads the Older Testaments of the Bible? Do we read it for ourselves or do we let others tell us what is in it or what things mean? I know what our past was, is it still our present? Where does one find Lucifer in the Hebrew Scriptures? What do Jews believe of Lucifer?

It is a mistranslation of a word meaning star or lightbearer. There is no Lucifer in Judaism and no fallen angel, devil, Satan.... Lucifer is Latin. Ezekiel talks about what will happen to the King of Tyre. Isaiah is about the King of Babylon not some fallen angel from heaven.

Translated as star or light bearer or light bringer what happens to Jesus saying "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from the sky" (Luke 10:18)? What does that do to ones interpretation of Ephesians 2:2 and throwing lightning bolts?

I am sure Jesus and New Testament writers would have known the languages of their lands and their stories and their heritage and their faith...

I simply struggle with how Christians Christianize the Hebrew Scriptures. Lucifer is Christian construct. Augustine was arguing about where the angel revolt happened and how long it lasted. Three instants they decided.

This is God's lament:

O don't you see

You belong to me

How my poor heart aches

Every breath you take.

-Sting, Every Breath You Take

What about the book of Job?  That has got to be one of the earliest Judaic writings that and Genesis 3 where the serpent tricks Eve and Eve will bear a son that will bruise the serpent.

I believe the way lucifer/satan as described in scripture is a reflection  of the way people saw "the character opposition" of God & what is good & acceptable under Absolute Power.

At least this is how they saw this "character", according to how this character is in oposition to what God was trying to convey to us of "His rightiousness"  through God's inspiration & direction by His Spirit.

First this was expressed through the law. & through inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Second, through Christ, & the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Third, through personal revelation by the Holy Spirit.

For revelation to be just that, God must be in it.

Through scripture, it was found acceptable to describe this lucifer/satan, as one with a name.

& described a role in which this character played within the Kingdom of heaven, & how this character was once in common with God but changed after being granted with great authority & influence.

Jesus described the mysteries of the kingdom of God, & promoted them with His thoughts, words, & actions

 Why is it, that we must see & comprehend what is evil to know what is good?

Well this mystery is not to remain a mystery at all, realy.

Not when it becomes clear as to why.

Does this "character opposition" to what is good & acceptable in the realm of Absolute Power & Authority have life?

I guess that would depend on how much life we give it, here.

So in other words, whether we give this "character" a name means little or nothing, & it has life whether we give it a name or not, when we endulge in it.

Bolt

ROTFLMAO!!

do you know, i still know all the words to that song off by heart??

i forget my PIN number on a regular basis, have trouble remembering my own phone number most of the time, but i remember all the lyrics to 'the devil went down to georgia'.

my brain is a mysterious little critter.

Sometimes a bit of historical context is helpful:

Before the Babylonian exile, the Jews had no concept of a Satan in the sense that most orthodox Christians today might envision Satan or the Devil. That is the reason that verses such as Isaiah 45:7 and 1 Sam 16:15 attribute both good and evil to YHWH. I have excluded Lucifer because those verses in Isaiah are in obvious reference to an earthly king with an immense ego. During the Babylonian exile they were exposed to and strongly influenced by the Zoroastrian religion. This faith envisioned a constant cosmic battle between a god of good (Ahura-Mazda) and a near divine force of evil (Ahrulman). The Jews were easily able to cast YHWH in the role of the God of good. It let YHWH off the hook for evil. They took the angel ha'shaitan from the mythology of Job and cast him/her/it into the role of Satan as the personification of evil. It was a far more satisfactory explanation for the presence of and problem of evil in the world. So it all depends whether you are looking at pre-exilic scripture or post-exilic. This means that the talking snake in the Genesis mythology was just a common garden variety talking snake (pun intended). It is also worth knowing that the concept of demons or devils along with the notion of hell proceeds out of this same source. The connection with Zoroastrianism extends into the New Testament with the story of the magi (Zoroastrian priests) coming to pay homage to the infant Jesus and also to the person of Simon Magus as found in Acts.

She Devil,

As JRT mentions, in The Hebrew Scriptures, the serpent/snake is a serpent/snake and not the Devil or Satan. I will not say it was a regular garden snake, because I do not think so. Every mythology had a serpent. It was believed that snakes did not grow old and die, they shed their skin. Ah, that may hint at something in the text about life we miss now, might it not? Did you know the Greeks called a snakes skin "old age"? Eternal life is tied to serpents in many cultures mythology.

The Levites, before Yahweh, were sons of the Great Serpent. His Goddess was the moon.

Serpent worship existed in Israel pre-Judaic Yahweh.

In Job, we have what? Jews certainly do not see a Devil or some fallen, disowned angel working independent of God. They see an adversary or an employee of God speaking to God.

Sighsnootles,

But what would that brae-in be without the brain-storm of internal energy that lights IT?

F'armour in the delle! ID'sae deep dimension ... that weal-Tae ... words shattering the silence ... with "Omega'd!" And that was just a misconstrued beginning of someone putting their aL intuit!

Bolt,

Is there anything that bothers a fix'd person than a continuous flow of words when the ide'e likes it simple? It is the void between ID and Ego as desires and knowing ... and the medium of man (th'means) would rather not know anything but their intuition. Man following Roman tradition would like to defeat the creation that surrounds him rather than cultivate IT, the offspring of Ego, data for the next string of intellect. Man curtailed that by burning all the ancient books some 2000 years ago and out went the light as aches and shadow ... a deep desire to know what a Roman considers dangerous ... the thinking side of God to a Roman is Janus, or J'nous where "nous" is an old expression for captive intelligence ... even if we don't know IT, such is in our bones like scrimshaw.

But M'N is not much for co-operation ... he thinks he can run the show on his own ... a mortal in an infinite world? There seems to be a disconnect here like Exodus 20:19 or Isaiah 7:11 that states that someone didn't want to know God ... a two-faced creator that we choose not to know inside the hard round ... a self-destructive means of making room for new ideas in a mortal space! Thus the old saying: "Greater Love ...!" But we don't understand the implications for fear of the edges, fringe, or what's mortally known as the end ... even though the good book says 366 times: "Have no fear!" Then the fours of the church enters as a Swedish word ... sauvage ... that is probably mis translated as salvage of the reusable parts (so-vage) ... the emotional part just got totally overblown by the hot winds of Saint Augustine ... who also thought he was the boss hawg ... only partially true ... but mortals can't get that "aL" together. Th'aL, or the word "aL" in ancient tongues is that above or beyond us a myth. Isn't that Oz-eM statistical word like artistic hanging in space ... an image of an aether nation ... gene-teal, or indigo ... Bleu-win in the Winds?

Dah spicey realm of God and Theo, a duality of a deuce to monotheistic persons, I'm not perfect but a just hybrid pas in through on my wah elsewhere. I'm in other words Je t'aime in Gaelic tongues or J'Thames ... in old tongues just J'aimes, in Africans, slave holder (James, brother of Ye sous?), container of the emotions that he thinks he can control until the day he loses it and finds he made no rheum for Theo ... clear state of soul, or is the sole's calm'n, a given state by creation. Does God have a sense of Eumerus? Eu're supposed to bet' O'nite like the mystery of Lovein enigma we didn't want to know in lew of creating a realm of hate. Just look around us what fixed thought has done ... and God created a stone in the eye of ... da'ven as bet'Sea ... shamayim is an extremely fluid place of fugacity!

You do have to extend yourself to understand the words of God? Love and nothing scares the crap out of an isolated bean more than reading things they don't understand. Is learning, or l'yarning a factor like Mir (Myrr) reflection on the beast (a canon)? Sometime I feel this tickle phloe'n ova meis, like M'Isis thought, some think it image of a breast, some two cheeks up in thy's UN as a mete afore bean ... Jack ...d'Jah Vue ... or as the Heb saes ... a vision of Love's reach like an isthmus (heh's Moes)? Sometimes yah slap one side to wake up the abstact side ... that's creative. Ain''t that the pane of learning clair Ide'e?

Oh what we don't know is humbling in light of those that make claims to ... !

man, waterbuoy... either i'm stoned or you are.

I would like to  be

To answer the question, I see Satan as sort of God in reverse; also a nonformed, non-pin-downable, powerful being who manifests himself in unhealthy, unkind, unwise words, deeds, and actions, in order to sever our relationship from the Divine. As I don't see God as a fully-formed humanlike 'Gandalf in the sky', neither do I see the Devil as a red animalistic type creature with horns and a pitchfork. I sort of see them as a separated Jeckyll and Hyde, two spirits working very very hard within us and within our environment to lead us down two very specific but different paths. We follow both paths at different times to varying degrees, and anyone who says otherwise is giving themselves too much a pat on the back; the nice thing is, God always welcomes us back to his road when we find it again. :)

As usual, I'm edified by JRT's and Stevie's posts and fascinated by this topic. 

To my understanding, a snake was given various symbolic attributes such as seer (oracle at Delphi), carrier of deep knowledge, and proof of rebirth. 

Not the personification of evil. 

I'm wondering if there's a connection between the snake and the Lilith story?  Lilith seems more 'snake like" than Eve.  The monstrous character of  the serpent (shark, snake, monster), known as "Tiamat" and  "Lamia" seemed to become a dumping ground for all kinds of fears about women -- devouring children, whores and temptresses,   (A similar thing happened to the poet Sappho, who started out as a scholar and was a whore by the middle ages). 

Not Satan, though.

I have to agree with Elena, SG,  and JRT.  When I was studying Hebrew it was made clear to me that the snake in Genesis was indeed a snake and had nothing to do with a Satan.

If one reads Job carefully "The Satan" was one of the heavenly cousel given permission by God to test Job, which of course is a very good example of poetry and myth.

I keep thinking if God is all of those omni thingys and knows everything before it happens then why did he create an angel he knew would make such a mess of things?  Why did he need to test Job?  If he already knew these things then he is responsible for his creation good or evil..  The argument of free will is just thrown into to justify the presence of evil in the world.  If God knows everything then he knew before creation that I would commit sin.  As far as I can see the concept of satan is purely a human concept trying to explain evil.

Shalom

Mate

This is what the Bible tells us!

Isaiah 45:5  I am the LORD, and there is no other; besides me there is no god. I arm you, though you do not know me,
Isaiah 45:6  so that they may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is no one besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.
Isaiah 45:7  I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the LORD do all these things.

Mate, I agree with you. The difficulty is that I have a hard time finding anybody who is willing to discuss this.

Shalom.