I'm surprised to hear that because I have read many a criticism about Christianity here... 

But I would also have to say that it's not that surprising... Religion tends to be exclusivist  (my way or the high way) by nature.  I don't know of any religion (atheism included) that doesn't do that.

I think it depends on whether the posting is from a literalist, or a metaphorist (?)

One says, the Bible came down from God, on a CD, in WordPerfect version 0.0000000001.

The second says, ahh interesting, let's have a cup of tea and discuss this.

The first are boring and closed minded, the second are fun to debate.  The first are the my way or the highway, the second are the welcoming ones.

The first are going to heaven, the second are dammed UCCers 

IT

Russ

Hi crazyheart:

What, Christians smugly self-righteous? Whatever gave you that idea?

Canadian Christians apologize for being Christian.

Perhaps this is why Christians tell all "others" that they are going to 'elle with the joke Eire? Then doesn't such an Eire provoke a character of pure emotional content?

It's got to make you wonder about having conversations with people ... that have a sense of Eumerus ... a metaphor, or just anacronism? (anna; like "k" and old symbol for reflection ... crone; something to do with time ... possibly having enough time to think about your emotional content?) ... :-) ID's convertable with proper experience ... a transient character ... like smucked on a page!

Wondercafe has taught me you can say whatever you want to say as long as you add, IMHO, LOL!

Honestly, I was, still am sometimes what you have described Crazyheart. Wondercafe has challenged me and that's why I am here. Sometimes I feel as if I've taken a course in Religious Studies in University from some very wise professors and other times I feel like I'm back in grade school and learning to read for the first time.

I understand those quoting scriptures, because sometimes I do it.  I'm beginning to understand some of the more outlandish ideas proposed here, not with acceptance always (although some make sense) but at least now I try to understand and will sometimes debate others thinking the same as others may debate mine..

I have noticed that any fundy's that do dare to enter Wondercafe rarely stay and that there is a lack of patience for them to adjust to others ideas. So in a reverse kind of way, sometimes I witness some exclusivity to keep those that are "fundy" from reaping the benefits that Wondercafe has to offer. (disclaimer, IMHO, "hate" is never Godly and those that spew it at others should be stopped, whether it's here or anywhere)

This is a Christian site, and if agnostics, athiests, fundy's,liberals,other faiths etc.... choose to enter with respectful debate, then somedays it's actually glorious. But too many times i think we've all witnessed threads starting out with great subjects and ideas, only to turn into overheated ridiculous shouting matches.

Crazyheart, if a Christian didn't think that Christianity was, as you put it, "the best" - then would that person still be a Christian?  If they actually thought that another path was superior, then wouldn't they already be on it?

I am not talking about "the best". But I am talking about the smugness that we hold our religion when others are finding there way to God on another path.

Well, when those on other paths morally deserve eternal torture...how is one likely to view those people?

That belief is the minority view here, as I understand it, but the attitude may be held as a separate vestigial belief of its own.

The dictionary defines SMUG as "irritatingly pleased with oneself."

The dictionary defines DEVOUT as "devoted to religious feelings."

I pray that I am devout and also that I am not smug. 

As for feeling that Christianity is better than other religions, I do.  Can God, or the divine, be found in many ways?  Can a relationship with God be fostered in many ways?  Yes, I believe that.  Can our closest point of contact and communion with God  come through a relationship with Jesus Christ?  Yes, I believe that very strongly.  This comes from one who left the Christian faith of his childhood and returned some years later after a great deal of study and reflection of my faith and others.

Of course my friend Amy, a practicing Buddhist, believes differently from me.  The same likely goes for our Wonder Cafe friend Omnissiah.  I'm sure they believe very strongly that their path to the divine is the strongest connection.  But I don't consider them smug for holding that belief.

God bless,

CH...isn't it kind of smugly superior to expect Christians to behave less smugly (i.e., better) than non-Christians?

I am not asking anyone to be smug or less smug. i am asking if posters see it happening?

I think it happens among all groups, frankly, and that any prevalence among Christians here is due to your demographic concentration.

What--we Christians smug?  How dare you?   Despite the lofty spiritual perch on which I reside, God has given me grace to be humble.  I  don't think I'm half as good as I really am!

Berzerk .... LOL ....waaaaaayyy too funny!

Why does it make me feel so uncomfortable???

Thanks  .... that brightens my day

Hugs

Rita

One of the central beliefs of any faith group is the belief that they are right.  You can't be surprised when a number of them feel rather smug about themselves.  After all, they've found the "correct" religion.  That they were usually born into the "correct" religion by chance should reduce their smugness by at least 50%, but this reduction factor is rarely applied.

Crazyheart,

I think there is more than an element of truth in what you say.

Why else concentrate exclusively on what is "wrong" with the other?

I'm doing a course on Christianity and Islam.

I decided to do this course because my father, who was a teacher, once said to me, "Don't criticise anything you don't at least attempt to understand - if you do, your education has been wasted."

The course has provided me with a valuable lesson. It might surprise some of you to hear that these two religions have much in common.

I sometimes wonder, as I read through yet another vitriolic thread in the Religion and faith forum, what would I make of all this if I were from outer space? (Being from Oz, I understand the concept of distance. )

There are some posters that seem to understand the God of love. One is Omni - a young man that displays a wisdom  and grace beyond his years. He just happens to be a follower of Islam.

God is like an underground river - and all the religions that have been, are, and will be are like wells tapping into that mysterious, awe-inspiring source.

Some will seek to destroy  the other's wells, believing that they alone are entitled to the life giving water.

Some are content to maintain their well and drink the precious water - and simply ignore the presence of the other wells.

Some see every well as culturally induced - and thus form the view that all the wells have the same aim and value.

Which "some" best describes you?

well aint that a breath of fresh air, glad to see that you think you might be worng

best thing you ever said

well God may have given you Grace, but I have a direct Line , 911 eat your heart out

Thank you, Pilgrims.

I wonder how many teachers left or considered leaving the teaching profession because of their inability to get through to you?

manny i hope , because according to your faith, your right, like the rest of em, but then you threw the 'they Think they are " part into the equasion. so now your not sure if your beliefs are right or wrong

dam boy your confused son

*blinks*

Blackbelt, you are weapons-grade stupid.

hamson, your a big ham, and quite dum, you cant even agrue well,. if i was there  person i woudl probally slap that dubmness off your face

Look, can I just break this down for you for a second?

I wrote: "One of the central beliefs of any faith group is the belief that they are right.  You can't be surprised when a number of them feel rather smug about themselves."

No where in that, am I making any claim about the potential that I'm right or wrong.  I'm only commenting on how faith groups feel about their positions.  See?

Even if you try to stretch it to say that I belong to a faith group, and I get the feeling we've lived through that train wreck of a thread before, your reply to me still doesn't make any sense.

Let's calm down.

if you think your beliefe is not a faith that you stand on, your shorly freken very dumb

no I dont see, your the one who paints  with a wide brush, and you dont even see it, your more brainless than i thought

it does because you do beloing to a faith grp, admit it or not you have a belief base,so i really dont care what you think , your just to stupit to get it

PS: with all your dum ass , smart ass remarkes you keep posting just shows the kind of person you are, an asshole, but I tell you , Im a rough around the edgnes kind of Christian, sooner or latter I would smak that smart ass grin off your face

you really are a jerk

I'm not sure that I would use the word 'smug' to describe all Christians.  I think I know what some of you are hinting at though.  Maybe you are talking about the Christians who are so sure they have there theology straight that they feel compelled to try to shove it down the throats of the people they meet as they go about there day. It is quite unfortunate, I think.  The vast majority of people who call themselves Christians NEVER talk about it in any meaningful way (in my long experience anyway).  They go to church, they go to church meetings, they go to church organised group activities - but they don't talk about what they are doing or why.

Some of the 'I know it all" group desperately need the security they get from having a firm grasp of a theory that they think will pay off in a trip to some place called Heaven - up in the air somewhere.  When I'm accosted by one I haven't got the heart to try to convice them they may have it wrong.

It's not just the edges - there probably isn't a single facet of you that is polished.

I don't challenge you on this forum because you believe - I challenge you because you post utter crap.  In this case, you're sure I'm saying something I am not, and you're getting fighting-mad over it.

If this is the sort of person faith turns people into, it's not only me who isn't interested.  Some of the things you think I'm saying, are things I'm actually saying.  Some clearly are not.  For whatever reason, you're not equipped to either descern between the two, or debate the topic.  I think you're an excellent example of what lack of intellectual curiousity can do to a person.  What you are willing to accept on faith is staggering, and what you are willing to reject despite evidence is equally so.  I don't know if there are parts of you that are legitimately impaired, or if you simply rejoice in being irrational, but I'm glad you're not arguing for my side.

this is what you seem to not get through that thick head of yours Internet tough guy, we understand you don't believe in God, that is very OK with us, but instead of intelligent arguments from you , all we get is smart ass remakes, do you think the Christians here have to feelings, do you think your rude comments do not hurt them and in turn they still try and be civil with you , are you that much of a low life?, do you not have any self respect as a gentlemen?, no you do not.

thats why this rough Christian would give you a good smack in the face, its the only way to get through to jerks like you

Who is the "Internet tough guy" in this scenario?  For all your talk of being a "Christian", only one of us here is threatening physical violence, and that's you.  That doesn't surprise me, as you can surely dig up some biblical justification for striking me.  What you'll need next, is some divine help to find me.  If you want, you can get that divine help in the form of an old thread where people posted their locations to google maps.  As I recall, my position is exact, right down to the house.

Just don't come on Sunday.  We're holding a bible burning on Sunday, so I'll be too busy tending the fire to be leaning out of the way of your awesome smacks.

you are definitely  dum, I highly dough you would make fun of Christians continuously in real life, here behind the keyboard its easy for you tough guy to get a laugh out of your degrading remarks, in real life someone would finally get tired of your remakes and knock out a few of your teeth

Blackbelt, calm down and think about this. Is there not a smugness that makes you rant at chansen because you feel that you are right. There is no room for compromise or discussion. ( And you do know that I like many of your posts).

its not about whos right and whos wrong, its about his degreading remarks

Every now and then, blackbelt, the shoe fits.

i dont wear shoes when i kick , I like the snap, has a wonderfull sound

Is this like the threats of everlasting torture, where I'm supposed to be scared?  Is it like that, but instead of the devil with a red-hot pitch fork, it's your smelly feet that are causing me to tremble?

Hay - crazheart-- I like both of them. Both should go to there corners for five min.Then come out and shake hands.

now why would one as you be scared behind a keyboard?

I'm not.  I'm mildly amused.  One of the safest places in the world to be, is in the firing line of your arguments.  And, probably, your feet.

Ok feet then . but if you guys take off any more clothes .I'm out of here

of course your not, i already know, guys like you all steam, no action

A degree in engineering is one of the more intellectually demanding academic programs in a university--short of some PhD programs.   As an engineer, Chansen must be very bright.    But he is also an island with no inviting landing dock.  So it is hard to elicit concessions from him of the form, "if you could just make sense of this absurd Christian doctrine, or this biblical claim., then I might..." or "if I could have this kind of convincing spiritual experience, I'd probably reconsider..."   In other words, there is no evident theoretical path that might induce Chansen to reconsider his atheism.  At least this alerts me to the limited potential of intellectual dialogue with Chansen.   But his recent posts have clarified why he is here and he is entitled to post here for his own reasons.   

Crazyheart - I've given your question some thought.  Yes, I have found some Christians on this site to be smug about themselves and their beliefs.  I've found some atheists quite smug as well in their certainty that all religion is wrong and that their way is better. 

But I've also found that some are very humble.  And, perhaps more important, I've found that some have allowed their beliefs and/or understanding to learn and grow as they listen to other points of view and take part in discussions. 

I don't consider myself smug although I think that might be a hard things for something to judge about themselves.  I don't consider my relegion better than others, or right for everybody.  It is right for me.  I was born into Christianity, I was raised in a Christian home, and attended a Christian church.  I've been involved; I've made my Christian religion central in my life.  But I've met Buddhists who felt the same about their religion - it was central to their lives.  I dare say that would be true about all faith groups. 

I have met atheists who were absolutely sure that they were right and that everybody else was wrong.  And I've met those who say that it is right for them - that based on what is important to them they cannot believe in God and that they believe their lives to be complete without a spiritual element.

If I were not Christian, I am quite sure that I would join the Unitarians.

My degree and the relative difficulty of getting it really has nothing to do with the discussion.  If you're trying to refute blackbelt's charge that I'm "quite dum", do you really think that's necessary?

As for saying my mind is not open to religion because I won't give conditions under which I would be open to faith, are those examples really what you want me to say?  I mean, you could propose any number of hypotheticals.  For example, if North Korea weren't run by a crazy communist dictator, would I want to visit?  Sure, I guess.  Same with religion.  If it were somehow less crazy and demonstrably not invented and God wasn't the same bipolar ass of a deity that can be found in the bible, then sure, maybe it would be great to meet him.  But the hypotheticals necessary for that to happen are huge, and they haven't yet come to pass, nor do I expect them to.

Hi Berserk:

Are you trying to say that chansen is a smug atheist?

We shall see whether the smug atheists on this site can outsmug the smug Christians.

Now that is a great question! I AM superior to smug Christians who expect those who behave less smugly, as I do...and...WAIT! Self description, please! Some might feel superior by  calling themselves  something that speaks of a tendency of being smug. S.M.U.G. Some Might  Use 'Genius' ...

Cheers (Loftily imparted)

I greatly admire everyone who can have their day brightened -- uncomfortably. I'd wish you comfort--but it might ruin yer day. (Lessee, I have a choice here, Hobson! Come here!)

That's the first time I've seen smugness quantfied. Excellent!

I think I'll go for a smugness trim. Just a little, off the sides... 

...central beliefs of any faith group is the belief that they are right.  You can't be surprised when a number of them feel rather smug about themselves.

We start out by a logical observation which is not addressd in the incorrect conclusion.

well aint that a breath of fresh air, glad to see that you think you might be worng

To which a response 

I wonder how many teachers left or considered leaving the teaching profession because of their inability to get through to you?

Brought I confess, visions of my High School teachers dispondent over a wasted life, leaping, one by one, off a cliff...

Made me chuckle,,,

But louder at the response

manny i hope , because according to your faith, your right, like the rest of em, but then you threw the 'they Think they are " part into the equasion. so now your not sure if your beliefs are right or wrong

Eight errors, so far. Eight! Leading to:

dam boy your confused son.

Only four here. ( 5 words, 4 errors)

I blinked when I read them

*blinks*

Blackbelt, you are weapons-grade stupid.

Not a lofty response, but memorable.

but this is the kicker, the extracted highlight of my favorite time-waster-of-the-evening

(Ta DA!!!!)  :

hamson, your a big ham, and quite dum.

Oh boy. And, Blackbelt, your statment following that would have you banned from any website I had control over.

Yeah, weapons grade.

"I Came not to being peace, but a sword"

No slap, but you should watch out for skewers...   

The Happy Genius Bible shop has a special on bibles specially made for changing colours while burning, intermittent sparkling, and gives off orders of frankensense and myrr. Cheaper by the dozen.

...As the Cafe of Weird Wonders ...uh....ponders through the night...........

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Y'know, it's semantic nonsense, but quantum mechanics fits right in, currently - SOooo:

Athiests believe in nothing?

Proof of existance of God: Zero. Nada. Zilch.

Before the existence of time there was not 'nothing' because the very idea of nothing implies its opposite - little pellets of pure 'existance' which in turn implies its opposite so they embrace and destroy each other. This goes on for a forever or two...(Yes, I said that) in perfect, opposite harmony. Which implies it's opposite. You see where I'm going.  

The Law of Opposites seems to explain everything...Why did She make that law?

Revered God? Or Cosmic Stumbler? What with plagues and the book of Job and all -- do we understand Her as lacking a sense of humour? Or having a sense of play? Like throwing asteroids at floating balls of mud?  

Can't be bothered with such as that, other than word-play. It's the increasing complexity of all things and to what will this lead in my life-time that interests me. (I have absolutrly no idea about what world my grandchildren will know. No idea at all. The possibilities are endless, and I*'ll happily slide into the 'many worlds' idea...(With Voltaire-ic doubt)

Hey, if I ever meet you, I'll slap you also -- on the back as we go for a beer...