If you need rules in order to live decently among other people, leave now.

Love that, Mike

Clothes must be worn at ALL times (sorry, Witch).

I wouldn't have any rules as such - but I would invite those interested to take part in a six month's trial period.

As Crazyheart suggests, it's not east to live in harmony with others if one doesn't have a positive sense of self-worth and regard.

Six months would be long enough to appreciate that "the disturbance one causes around one, is in direct proportion to the disturbance within one".

Live with respect for all creation.

This means taking care of not just your neighbours but also the environment which surrounds you. It means making choices that are good for all of creation.

How about living in harmony even if we disagree

It still gets back to self-worth IMO.

Self-worth leads to one not feeling threatened by another's opinions - so there is more  opportunity for openness to the other's point of view.

An ethos I have seen practised in villages in several parts of the world is a community responsibility to the misfits: the disabled, the cantankerous, the lazy or inept... it's all part and parcel of the village life... what it MEANS to live int the village. You look after the souls who need help; you draw them into roles that give them a share of meaning and they obtain identities through it.

I can't imagine anything worse or more toxic that a gated community... or one that was strait-jacketed with rules and norms and expectations. Regulation, once entered into, can quickly run amok.

All rules are open to negotiation, and people come before rules. 

My village, My Sign

The UU first principle: We covenant to affirm and promote the inherent worth and dignity of every person.

With that in place, we'd then have a respectful discussion to decide what people think the other rules should be and create a village covenant. Which is, in essence, what my fellowship has done: started with the UU principles and purposes and then used them as basis for a congregational covenant.

Mendalla

Might I suggest that fairly early on the group decide on what would be the maximum number of people (or family groups) for the group to function as a village.  Too large - and people might lose the feeling of ownership and responsibility, and of having their voice heard.  They might allow an elite to take control of the decision making. 

I would suggest that about 500 hundred individuals, or maybe 50 - 60 family groups, would make an ideal village.  Once it reaches the maximum they should start thinking about splitting.  Once it reaches about 600 it might be time to split into two associated villages of 300 each  (with visits between the two villages and the outside world to counter inbreeding).   

When these two villages each reach 600, they might  split - this time into three with 200 from each group forming a new village of 400, leaving 400 in each of the other villages.  

These figure might have to vary somewhat - if most of the individuals are children under the age of ten they might have to wait until the number of adults reached a certain number before splitting.

In thre early 80s, the Brethern churches in Vancouver had a practice of creating daughter congregations when they outgrew their worship space.  When they had the opportunity to move into the chapel/church at UBC, the daughter congregation stayed behind and the main part moved.

Whilst I applaud the optimism and noble thinking expressed here - most communities, in reality, don't work well.

Folks bring their personal  baggage with them - and if that personal baggage has resulted in a lack of self-worth, it's a recipe for conflict.

The church community I belong to works better than most communities I've been associated with.

I've wondered about this, why  is it so?

The answer I've come up with - they like themselves!

Through meeting them, I've come to believe that most folks have at best a lukewarm self-regard - and this is the root cause of conflict and discord.

So, my tip based on personal experience, find a village or community where there is a lot of positive self-regard operating - and stay clear of "difficult" people.

That way, like me, you may find over time that they play their part in helping you feel comfortable in your own skin.

I'm less "difficult" now than I've been in the past - for others, and also myself. 

Will we be hanging out at the airport with love beads?

Don't forget the idealism of the 60's, eventually it produced one of the most materialistic generations ever.

Sing it Sister!  You are welcome in my village any time.

When I was young - oh so many years ago - I was what I was labeled "a nonconformist" and subsequently punished by those who desired conformity.  So in order to avoid the punishment I conformed to their demands - yet I was never comfortable.  I made truly bad decisions based on their world view.

Worse I didn't really like their world and frankly didn't want to become "that" person.  So, again to avoid punishment, I withdrew into myself and continued to make really bad decisions based on unhappiness.

At the lowest point in my life I stumbled into a community, a community made up of a diverse collection of people including some very vocal nonconformists.  I didn't agree with them all, and they didn't all agree with me; but what they did do was say it was alright to be me.  In fact, it was better than alright it was essential.

I've never looked back and what I discovered as my self confidence grew, my happiness grew, the people around me grew as well.  I discovered the inter-connections that bind us.  At times this frightens me - whew what a responsibility - and when that fear rises I still withdraw, find that quiet place and recharge but the periods of recharge are shorter now; the dark tea times of my soul brighter.

Each of us possesses the seeds to grow a bountiful garden of life.  It is the community that provides the soil for those seeds to grow.  What I have discovered is that in every community there is light and what I remind myself on those dark days is that every garden needs a little manure ....

LB - laughter is to life, what water is to the garden

Every garden is unique with a multitude of choices of soils, plants and themes. Finding your garden theme is as easy as seeing what brings a smile to your face.

     Teresa Watkins

I still say we all have to wear clothes at ALL times.

Interesting that there are some very remote villages in Ecuador, forgotten tribes almost.

They were managing very nicely with their simple way of life - fishing from unpolluted rivers - until oil was discovered in their region.  Now with ongoing outside influences and disturbances, village life, values and allegiances have changed.  Some people want the revenues and modernization oil development will bring them, others want to continue their former livestyle away from the world.  Villages are divided, friends and family members turned against each other.

Is the village model doomed?

"WELCOME TO OUR GHETTO- All entering and planning on staying should be community advocates. Here in our ghetto, we understand we do not all have to agree, collectively or privately. We do, however, agree to stay in community. We believe in the dignity, uniqueness, and worth of each individual . Though, as individuals and as a community, there are rules, we do not tell people how to behave.  We believe that everybody is responsible for his or her own decisions, and also for dealing with the consequences of those decisions, whether they were intended or not. Littering may result in you standing with your food stuff litter as bears come to eat said food litter. Enjoy your stay."

Do you think there would be any perfect villages or ghettos?

Rule 1. Opinions are NOT facts. Beliefs are NOT facts.

That should solve most problems by nipping the bud.

Witch,

My first counselling session we went through "opinions ARE NOT facts, beliefs ARE NOT facts, feelings ARE NOT facts (i.e. just because you feel insulted does not mean you were, just because you "heard" that you are dumb, unless they used those words that is not what they said - it is your feelings doing the listening sometimes)

Crazyheart, there could be perfect villages or ghettos- as long as they are ghost towns and no human beings lived there. Perfect humans do not exist. Pefect societies, towns, villages... can't as long as we are present

Tyson - wear clothes all the time?   I've heard that in some nunneries the nuns wore robes to shower.  I've heard that in the Victorian age some women never entirely disrobed at any one time - when bathing, they draped themselves, uncovered and washed one limb or body part at a time, washing down as far as possible, up as far as possible, and then reaching under their robes to wash possible.

Could we strip in our own bathrooms?

And what about sleeping in the nude?

\

Does your rule apply to infants and toddlers, or just those who have reached sexual maturity, or somewhere in between?

I'll repeat this till I'm blue in the face (er, figuratively not literally) - like yourself and your life will be so much more rewarding for yourself and others.

It has to be the first necessary step.

Life is too short to waste time on projections of your own inner turmoil.

I've grown fond of my Wondercafe community (village) and it saddens me at times to see some poor souls lost in the hostile world of their own projections.

Life is a journey. You've paid for the  full fare - don't  get off at the first stop.

In the example I used of the Indigenous people of Ecuador, the people of the northern villages were getting along quite nicely before the outside world intruded.  The people seemed to like themselves and each other.  There were inherited traditions, customs and values that everyone seemed to respect.  People helped and cared for each other, the children learned from their elders.  But once the outside world discovered them, and sought to alter their world, everything changed.

How then do we preserve the values and integrity of Crazyheart's new village?

How then do we peserve the values and integrity of the new village?

We could build walls around it, protect it from the outside world by limited contact and only through preapproved channels and people.  Then it becomes a prison, not a village. 

Or, we could make it a welcoming place where people could come and go as they please.  New people could join if they choose to live among us.  Others could leave of their own free will whenever they wished, and be welcomed back with no questions asked if they wished to return. 

The values and integrity would remain.  They might change as people changed, matured, moved in and out, learned more, developed or embraced new ideas, but they will remain part of the continuum.  

The village wouldn't be isolated.  It would be near other places where people live and work.  Perhaps some of the villagers would leave in the morning to work among others, perhaps the young people would join others in high school, and certainly in university.  People would take trips to town for shopping, dentist, doctor and services that the small village couldn't provide.  The village would be alive and vital and people would be there because they wanted to be.  And they wouldn't want too much, to drastic, change.

Dang. Those are things I didn't think of. I guess all the time is a bit overboard. the usual exceptions would apply, then. Perhaps the new village could have a nudist colony for those who wish to "strut their stuff".

Yes, there are external forces operating as well as internal. This is a common scenario to indigenous people the world over.

Once change occurs, it's not feasible to turn back. If the cultures differ widely - and they often do - it just seems a recipe for turmoil.

There are no easy answers - but tolerance, mutual respect and goodwill can make a beginning.

I also think that if the "dominant" culture has as it's leaders people who like themselves - then they are more likely to show compassion and empathy in their attempts to form a successful outcome.

And this is why, despite my personal desire, isolationism doesn't work.  It certainly doesn't work once a village has a population of two.  You can build walls and fences, hide behind gates and mountains, but there is always somebody who wants to peer over, either from one side or the other.

No longer can a village ignore the outside world.  It exists and has the means to enter.  The best one can do to protect itself is through education, knowledge about oneself and the other.  Discover the mutual ground among the differences.  Build the confidence in the attributes that foster a healthy environment of mutual cooperation.  Recognize and hold onto the cultures that provide joy and growth to each member of the community.  Encourage strengths and minimize weaknesses.

My favourite sports' (an oxymoron btw) analogy is not, despite my cultural background, hockey but rowing.  In team rowing no one individual can be stronger than the other or the boat will just go in circles.  Living in a community is the same, whether work or home, everyone has to pull together to move forward.

LB - stroke, stroke

A thousand times I'd told them: the key to racing is to come off the water regretting nothing.

     Brad Alan Lewis, Wanted: Rowing Coach

So now are we beginning to see God's dilemma with creation?

If there is a god, his biggest dilemma is probably what to do about his fan club.

Chansen, try and answer CH's question, it's really very hard. What would be your answer to her question?

As I look back at my opening post, I wonder, if we can not survive as a society without rules and regulations.

This seems very close to communes and I don't think that they work very well. For awhile maybe and then rules get in the way.

Rules are not the issue: how and why the rules are made is the issue.  My children's story a couple of months ago was about some children who got tired of rules and tried to start a club that had no rules.  It lasted about a week.  Rules help to name mutual expectations.  When their purpose is to facilitate mutual relationships and the life of the community, they are very helpful.  When their purpose is to allow some members to dictate expectations of other members in the interests of the ones doing the dictating, they can become a problem.

Natural systems operate on a few basic principles, and the success of individuals in those systems depends in part on how well they respond to those principles.  If we give space to individuals to continually shape, as necessary, the expectations of a community in keeping with basic principles, the community should endure and possess great resilience.  Resilience is far more important than perfection.

Jim Kenney - I've tried that in my youth class.  I've brought in a game that I am quite sure they are not familiar with and put it in the middle of the table with the instruction sheet removed.    I announce:  "instead of the usual class today, I thought you might enjoy a game."   Positive responses.  "Go ahead and get started.  I'm just going to put these books away."    So I turn to the shelf. 

The kids look at each other.  Someone opens the box.  They search for the instuctions.  I leave the room.  After a few minutes I return.   "Why aren't you playing?"  "We can't find the rules."   "Oh, well.  Just go ahead without the rules."  Sometimes somebody will actually pick up a card, or roll the dice.  They might try to relate it to a game they already know.  But before long they either start making up their own rules and trying to get everybody to agree with them, or, more likely, they give up. 

Some time ago, I decided to rent out rooms to students attending the nearby university.  These students would be living in my home, sharing the common areas - bathrooms, kitchen, livingroom, with me.  When they came to see the room I handed them a list of rules - one page.  Everything from no smoking or drinking in the house, no over-night guests, quiet after 10:00 pm, etc and so on.   Some were not interested, and went elsewhere.  Others were pleased to find a place where they could concentrate on their studies.  Once ot twice I had to speak to someone about ignoring the rules - but usually it worked very well.  So well that as time went by we relaxed the rules.  If we were all enjoying a hockey game there was no reason to turn it down or off at 10:00 pm.  If we were sharing a pizza, I did not object to a glass of wine or a bottle of beer.    If someone received a phone call at 1:00 am and I got up to answer the phone and called them, I didn't get upset, but if it happened frequently I asked them to tell their friends not to call that late.    A small group - usually strangers to one another when we started out each September - but we got along, keeping rules reasonable, to a minimum, flexible, and agreed to in advance.  A village might do the same.

1st Rule:

"NO POLITICIANS!" :3

ahhh but 'politics' is the art/science of finding a way for a community to live together well.  a true politician is good at that.  Seems like this thread is full of them.  I wish our government leaders were. 

And this is why my personal motto is "Adapt or Die"

Rigid systems are doomed to failure.  There must be a fluidness and openness to recognize when those systems are failing.  Take the best, what really works, and build on that.  Too often the desire to hold onto the failing system, either for ego or out of fear, creates more and more rules to prop it up but, because of the inherent flaw, it will still collapse.

Birthstone - but politicians are people too!

LB

My doctrine is not a doctrine but just a vision. I have not given you any set rules, I have not given you a system.

     Buddha

LBmuskoka,

"Rigid systems are doomed to failure.  There must be a fluidness and openness to recognize when those systems are failing.  Take the best, what really works, and build on that.  Too often the desire to hold onto the failing system, either for ego or out of fear, creates more and more rules to prop it up but, because of the inherent flaw, it will still collapse."

This is so much part of our struggle in the church.  Well said!.

(I must learn how to do the quote thing!)

About my preferred rules in this hypothetical village?

"Don't be a dick" seems like a good start.  Other than that, you can make any rule you want, but people will disobey them.  I don't think a good village is based on rules, but on mutual respect, caring, patience and beating the children.  OK, not that last part.

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What do you have against guys named Richard?

I notice that noone has mentioned churches, temples or mosques.

Open air religious services, no guessing, talking about what the other folks do... it breeds compassion, knowledge, understanding, responsibility, accountability....

Actually, don't be a hypocrite seems like a better starting point.

CF, I'm well aware you don't like me, but let's not drag the other thread over to this one.

You're correct. I will remove my post.  

Edited to add: It seems I cannot delete the post. Please disregard it, with my apologies to CH.

I am in favor of the Church of AWESOME. In it, we would sing hymns like this oldie but goldie.

Interesting, no rules. My own home wouldn't even function without some rules.