Could you be more specific?

no probably not.

And I do love it when people try to claim that the Genesis passages have anything to do with Jesus of Nazareth, the one we call Christ.  Highly amusing.

ANd I know I have asked you thins before.  But when quoting passages could you please cite book, chapter, and verse so that peopl.e can look them up in context. (although you have done so at least half the time for a change)

grd, stick around this thread.

look up

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

john 8:58 and read the verse in context.

 (be patient with this thread)

ponder this

16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

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and read about this question he asks

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David himself calls him 'Lord.' How then can he be his son?" The large crowd listened to him with delight.

mark 12:37

(see if it cross ref's too with M,M,L,J (as in the sayings are in another gospel, read both if it does (as with all))

ps , googling for explanations may not be the best approach.

I assume you remember that we approach teh Gospel accounts from VERY different points of view with VERY different assumptions about how they were writtenéwhat they contain.

You need to go back and properly attribute to the authors of those portions of your post you took from other people's writing.

I'm sure you wouldn't want to be accused of theft of intellectual property.

Grd.

ill just post the first part for now.

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²³And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

 ²⁴I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

 ²⁵Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

 ²⁶I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

 ²⁷They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

 ²⁸Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

 ²⁹And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

 ³⁰As he spake these words, many believed on him.

 ³¹Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

 ³²And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

 ³³They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

 ³⁴Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

 ³⁵And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

 ³⁶If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

 ³⁷I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

 ³⁸I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

 ³⁹They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

 ⁴⁰But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

 ⁴¹Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

 ⁴²Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

 ⁴³Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

 ⁴⁴Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 ⁴⁵And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

 ⁴⁶Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

 ⁴⁷He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 ⁴⁸Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

 ⁴⁹Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.

 ⁵⁰And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

 ⁵¹Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

 ⁵²Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

 ⁵³Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

 ⁵⁴Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

 ⁵⁵Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

 ⁵⁶Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

 ⁵⁷Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

 ⁵⁸Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

 ⁵⁹Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

i used bible gateway for the NIV, ill stick to KJV then, its public domain i believe. do you know how that works? since this is just a personal talk on a forum. maybe start a thread on the issue.

well lets just approach it as though it is written. as it is written.

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(dont rush , we will get to Moses)

I finally decided to look in.  Hello to all.  I think I'll stick around for a while.

We've spent the last several months planning and organizing for a 9 week trip to Greece.  I do hope  to visit many of the "Pauline" locations though probably not all of them.  We leave on March 14 and return on May 23.  This is not a tour.  My wife and I are going it alone with our back packs.

Someone said to me that we would be tired when we got home.  Hell, I'm going to be tired when I get off the plane in Athens.

Shalom

Mate

Do you know how it was written Stephen? How much do you know about the authors of the works and their intended audiences? Have you studied word etymologies? Have you taken into account such things as societal norms and cultural forces? Have you compared and of the scriptures you're quoting with other writings of the same time period? 

I'm talking about the parts you copied from the article "10 Things Noah's Ark Teaches Us About Jesus" etc.

You did not write that. Copying it without attribution is stealing.

I see some mention of the gospels.

They are but the subjective interpretations of man's experience of one Jesus of Nazareth.  Of course they are not biographical stories.

Just read and heard "Borg" I think that the Gospel of Thomas may even predate the other four though there is still much debate about that..

In addition I must add that my stand against fundamentalism has only hardened.  A local church "pastor?" told his congregation not to go to an evangelical meeting that was being held here on the island.  What rather dubious nonsense.

Shalom

Mate

Mate

You lucky bugger.  Hope you and your wife have a great time.

We are thinking of going on a cruise to Turkey this fall and the Minister is talking about a pilgrimage to the Holy Land next spring, complete with time at a dig.

Sorry, off topic.

IT

Russ

ten things Jesus teachs us about noah source from paste.

(are your about that stealing statement. i havent heard that before, regarding a site such as this, and , do you know if it is intended to be copyrighted in the first place, are you qualified in this area?)

http://www.biblestudyplanet.com/s36.htm

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yes , we know the circular arguments regarding the gospels and times and authors.

thats could be another thread.

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is everyone on the same page regarding.

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

AS a published author, I do have some knowledge in this area, yes. Any original work someone writes is copyright the moment it is written. Copyright is a default position, not something one has to declare. The responsibility is on you to properly attribute, and to remain within "fair use".

Are you trying to tell me you had no idea that plagerizing someone els's work was wrong? Did you never go to school? Write an essay? Do research?

I find it difficult to believe that you wouldn't know it was stealing.

Stephen

The arguments about the Gospels are hardly circular.  If one chooses to accept them as history so be it.  That most certainly is not how Biblical scholars see it.

Shalom

Mate

erased

Perhaps that is the way the scholars you read see things. You certainly cannot say that all Biblical scholars see things that way. You tread dangerous waters by making sweeping statements like the one you did above.

According to you and your scholars. According to other people's beliefs (such as mine) and the scholars they read, the Gospels are biographies of Jesus Christ.

Congratulations.

Agreed, not all scholars see it that way, in fact I would say most do not

Tyson

Among the scholars I have read and studied uner some of them are recognized as among the premier Jesus scholars in the world.  Crossan, Borg.

Their views and interpretations are the only thing that makes sense to me.  They remove religious faith from the realm of fairy tale and fantasy.  This leaves me with not having to park my brain at the front door of the church.  I was raised in a very fundamentalist church and found it "evil"

Shalom

Mate

Agreed, and Mine, I would also like to point out that the Gospels do have a objective source to them

balckbelt

Now I can agree with that.  The ojective source being one Jesus of Nazareth.

Shalom

Mate

I love how william lane craig debates Borg :

in fact progressives Like Crossan , Borg, Shelby are of a smaller camp

well that is because, you listen to the subjective views of men like, Borg, there is a objective suorce

actually, I was referring to the Spirit that Raised Jesus

I've tried rading Lane Craig.  No thanks.  He could well be the author of a book entitled "Magic and Make Believe". 

As for that group being in a minoriety some could only wish.  I have thousands of names in my list.  At least they use their heads and the brains that God has seen fit to give them.  Not really interested in my scholars are beter then yours.  I go for the ones that make sense of reality.  I dont need "Magic and Make Believe".

Shalom

Mate

scholars? mybe these some of these 'scholars' read everything but the Story of Jesus in M,M,L,J and believe everything but the story of Jesus. you can be a 'scholar' all you want , without belief and faith, you miss the greatest lessons of all.

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anyway , back to the thread

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is anyone on the same page regarding

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

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gord?

Got it, I was merely pointing out that there are also scholars that are not of Borgs  point of view

According to the theology of John's prologue that makes perfect sense.  Was taht Jesus' self-understanding?  Neither of us can possibly know for sure.  Personally I don't think it was.  Mind you I find the Scriptural argument for much of Trinitarian theology as the church has developped it (using Greek philosophical constructs) less than convincing.

Yes, because the Jesus Seminar is such a scholarly group. Let's cast colored beads to vote on what Jesus said.

The scholars I read such as Dr. Norman Geisler and Ravi Zacharias are the only views interpretations that make sense to me. But unlike you, I do not make claims that all scholars interpret things the way they do. It's unscholarly to make such a claim. You need to identify that your beliefs and interpretations are yours and the conclusions of your scholars and refrain from making blanket statements. You misrepresent the beliefs and conslusions of all scholars if you do not do so.

Just because you found the fundamentalist church your were raised in evil does not mean that all "fundamentalist" churches are. So your hard stand against "fundamentalism" is egostitcal puffery at best.

OOOOHHHHH. I see. So those of us who do not agree with you and your scholars do not use our heads and brains. Such bullshit and intolerance. Your time away from WC really hasn't changed you much, has it. Mate?

This is the thing,

for me people like Borg, Crossan, Sponge do not have an objective source , so there studies of scripture are at best subjectively intellectualized , which is completely understandable

But then you clearly say as much when you write such a crap statement like, "At least they use their heads and the brains that God has seen fit to give them."

I would also like to see him prove that the suppernatural is " "Magic and Make Believe". That is just a comment rooted in slef understanding

Yep. The "Magic and make believe" line is the default position for those who do not use the brain that God gave them.

Of course not all biographies are all true, and some reveal truth by being outlandishly untrue. When it comes to the gospels, I think it's fair to say that some things in them can be stated as historical facts, others not. I see no problem with saying that the crucifixion of Jesus is historic fact. That the resurrection took place,on the other hand, is rather a faith statement.

so how then would one Know the truth on whether the Resurrection is a Historical physical fact or spiritual myth

i wanted this thread to cover the "I AM" statements of Christ and how his divinity is throughtout the Bible.

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we are still on the first one adddressed really....

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"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

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maybe you guys could start a thread? expressing all the doubts and arguments in relation to the validity of everything? over and over again. maybe it would be good as a thread so teh issue doesnt continuessly derail many aspects of Christianity we talk about.

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lets let this thread be from a standpoint to growing in the Messiahs message.

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please?

what do you mean by truth?

it is my opinion that there are Some things we can never know in terms of historical or scientific fact

erased

gord,

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

[Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

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try to get more in touch with your spiritual side.

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JOHN 8:38 NKJ
38 "I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father."

JOHN 8:26-28 NKJ
26 "I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him."
27 They did not understand that He spoke to them of the Father.
28 Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.

JOHN 12:49-50 NKJ
49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
50 "And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."

JOHN 14:10 NKJ
10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

stephenb please stop making assumptions about people based on what they post.  You don't like it when others do that about you.

I'm speaking about the Truth of the physical resurrection from the dead of Christ

JOHN 8:38 NKJ
38 "I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father."

JOHN 8:26-28 NKJ
26 "I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him."
27 They did not understand that He spoke to them of the Father.
28 Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.

JOHN 12:49-50 NKJ
49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
50 "And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."

JOHN 14:10 NKJ
10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

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i guess we have to ask a question what is our acceptance of the Christian Bible as Christians

i am reflecting on how you seem to approach things  from a earthly logical understanding in a strive to obtain much 'knowledge' and seemingly not a spiritual approach in my opinion.

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Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

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And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

SB

people here only wish to discuss, cant you please stop with all the scripture postings and just simply talk with people, you got band from this site because of that once, so please don't get band again and interact with people

⁹And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 ¹⁰And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.

 ¹¹And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

 ¹²That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

 ¹³And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

 ¹⁴The sower soweth the word.

(see Mark Chapter 4)

sure blackbelt, lets speak of the thread topic, did you read it yet?

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okay ,

what does this mean to you in context of the Chapter it is written.

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Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Others can answer that one better than I can brother. They are more learned than I. However, as best I understand it, there are just not enough independent witnesses to validate the resurrection as a genuine historic event. There are enough outside sources that note the crucifixion. Now don't get me wrong, I believe in the resurrection. It's a point of my theology that truthfully I would be willing to die for, but I can no longer argue that it's history.