The reality of pain and suffering is one of the basic foundation principles.  There is suffering and pain.  Someone has to say that.  It is not polite conversation, it is serious conversation: there is pain and a constant sense of anxiety. 

Anxiety becomes neurosis.  Since we feel a sense of freakishness and unwholesomeness continuously in ordinary life, we may begin to feel we have been cheated. 

If we are theists, we get angry at God.  If we are non-theists we blame karma.  In either case we feel we have been cheated by someone somewhere.  So we begin to feel resentful and doubtful and find that sitting on our meditation cushion is painful. 

Your Buddy on the Path - Poguru

As a non-theist, I enjoy being told that my suffering is due to ignorance and that I'm blaming karma. You're amazing. There is nothing more enlightening than the Christian-Buddhist hybrid crap you're regurgitating.

chansen, explain where you're seeing Christian theology in this? I'm seeing what looks to be pretty 'normal' (albeit Westernized) buddhism.

Poguru sprinkles in a little of everything, but here it's mostly Buddhism, granted.

As Bette suggests, he's actually spouting fairly orthodox buddhism albeit from his modern new age perspective. Karma is the correct term for the accumulated detritus of our lives that binds us to the world of suffering. It is a non-theistic idea at heart. There is no God causing us to suffer, only our "grasping" or "desire" that binds us to an ephemeral, changing world.

Now, I'll concede that I've never heard it explained as ignorance before. I learned that "grasping" or "desire" is the cause of suffering and that it is ignorance of that fact that prevents us from advancing to the cessation of suffering.

I'm not a Buddhist per se, but I do see the wisdom of the Buddha's teaching.

Mendalla

Hi Chansen Old Buddy,

I can tell from the tone of your post that you are suffering.  Your anger shows through the words you use.  Thank you for confirmation of the founding principle. 

Why are you suffering?  You don't have to suffer but you continue to do so through ignorance of the causes of suffering. 

Meditate on the causes of suffering and your ignorance will evaporate and you will be well on your way down the Path that leads to the cessation of suffering.

Your Buddy on the Path - Poguru 

Chansen is suffering like all emotional beings that in the midst of their ignorance (emotion state) they realize that speck enough to know thy're stupid ...

Have joy in where you are Chasen, when you step across the line in that crook'd path, and look at the backside, you'll know better. That's the empiric, the lesson of life as experienced before you become nothing but a pure state of mind ... a mere thought?

Get over it that'll pass in the real world, but in the abstract it gas no bottom tuit! Sort of like psyche, mostly imaginary, but then if you don't believe ... will "chi" leave you all alone so then you'll really be in the dark!

Psyche is part of the necessary myth or you can Luce it permanantly ... Charlie Brown ... like an ochre daemon ... just mumbles in the background ... the adulterized form ...

Honour your father and mother or they will drift from your soul, and you will have no power to think about what you dunne wrong ... thus nothing learned nothing gained ... is that a Pa'n or just suffering? Build a big fire in the netherlands and it is your butte roasting !

The mental gods have a sense of plasma (connections, research that word) runs cell to cell like light ... weird energy? Neuromythology; the search for something in that reciprocal out-there mode ... inversion is deceptive unless you learn to read everything inside out and backwards ... quantum like ...

You don't expect mystery to be revealed clearly do yah ... when it is something you didn't wish to know in the first place ... when you were just a smear thing ... thr descent of brae'HS ... could be horse-hit, or just Taurus ...

Like word plae, maas'n with psyche ... just to see what comes up ...

Dear Chansen Old Buddy,

Your misery is plain to see even for a dunce like me.  You may wish to try meditating on impermanence.  Plainly, you are experiencing anxiety over the condition of your son.  In that regard, you may take some comfort from the teachings of the Bagavad Gita wherein Krsna explains to Arjuna that everyone is endowed with an immortal spirit that can not be harmed in any fashion. 

When the truth of this realization comes upon you much of your anxiety will dissapate and you will no longer feel the need to lash out at others in the midst of your agony because your ignorance will have been dispelled.  In fact, once you have made that realization, a great compassion for those who have not yet achieved that realization will arise within you.

I admit that you and I are suffering.  However, we are told that there is a way to experience the cessation of suffering.  The only way to find out if that Path will lead to the cessation of suffering is to follow the Path.

Have courage and remember that this is one of those times when faith can carry you through those times when you don't know for sure.  When you do know for certain then you can rejoice that your faith was not misplaced.

Give it a try.  What have you got to lose?

I, myself, was born with a genetic heart condition called hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.  This debilitating condition has caused me years of pain and suffering.  It also subjects me to the rather ominous condition called Sudden Death Syndrome.  I will admit that, in the past, it has caused me a great deal of anxiety.  I have found some relief from that anxiety by studying the great works of religion, both theist and non-theist. I offer this comment with the prayer that you too will achieve some measure of peace.

Your Buddy on the Path - Poguru

Poguru,

After reading your  reply to Chansen, I feel compelled to say something to you......

Life is more, far more, than  seeing "a cessation of suffering".

Life is to be lived - not avoided.

Life is about connection, not detachment.

Having sat across a table from Chansen,  his present suffering is well justified. If you had seen the love in his eyes when he was with his son, as I have done, you would know the simple truth, - suffering is the other side of the coin of love.

Yes, if you bury your life-force in books and learning, you may well avoid the suffering that love invariably leads to.

(But, let's be honest here, it doesn't really work, does it?)

It doesn't work, because you are in reality living a life based on fear, rather than the joy and fulfillment that love can bring.

I know this personally.

Five years on, I'm still struggling with this following the death of my much loved husband.

I haven't stopped loving. Once love is awakened in you, it is a force that becomes part of you.

But, to a degree, I feel "stuck". I miss the special relationship that only a significant other can give. There is a feeling of emptiness in my heart because, through the love my husband and I shared, I know that a valuable part of my life is missing.

Yet I still balk at opening myself up to such a relationship because fear still has the upper hand.......

I'm sorry that you have to live with a life threatening illness. To a degree it's understandable that you wish to avoid the suffering that that entails. I hope you manage to value love and joy - a sense of connection, rather than just  an avoidance of suffering in your life.

Dear PP Old Buddy,

Thank you for your recent post. 

As you correctly noticed, life is more than just avoiding suffering.  One wants to avoid suffering and experience happiness.  Recognizing the nature of suffering is just the first step.  The ultimate goal is never ending blissful consciousness - SAT - CHIT - ANANDA. 

This can be achieved, we are assured, in the wisdom of the ancient masters (Christ included), by following the path.  Does that path lead to the cessation of suffering and the experience of blissful consciousness for an eternity?  The only way to find out for yourself is to walk the path.

If Chansen knew beyond any doubt that his son's existence was not in jeopardy owing to the fact that he is, in his true essence, an inviolable spirit temporarily inhabiting a fleshy body for the purpose of gathering valuable experience, do you not think that would relive him of some of the anxiety and anguish he feels?

Would Chansen look upon his son's distress as well as his own differently if he knew that he was just the latest incarnation in a series of incarnations working out karma?

Certainly, in my case, I have found that these kind of ideas have brought me a great deal of relief from the anxiety that I, personally, have experienced.  In fact, the more I learn about these things the less anxious I become.  I do not think of this as burying my life force in books and learning but rather immersing myself in correct knowledge.  Nor is it a passive activity.  I meditate on a regular basis and try to incorporate what I have found into my daily existence and my interactions with others.  Having access to the wisdom of the ages as presented through the world's religions has been wonderful!   I owe a lot to those great souls that went before me and left to me the wonderful gift of their amassed wisdom.  I am truly grateful. 

Consider the words of Śankarâchârya:

"For beings a human birth is hard to win, then manhood and holiness, then excellence in the path of wise law; hardest of all to win is wisdom. Discernment between Self and not-Self, true judgment, nearness to the Self of the Eternal and Freedom are not gained without a myriad of right acts in a hundred births. This triad that is won by the bright one's favor is hard to gain: humanity, aspiration, and rest in the great spirit. After gaining at last a human birth, hard to win, then manhood and knowledge of the teaching, if one strives not after Freedom he is a fool."

The purpose of this thread was to awaken people to the fact that we are all miserable, yourself included, by your own admission.  The second is to examine the causes of that misery.  The third is to make people aware that they don't have suffer.  And the fourth is ennuciate the path or means to achieve the cessation of suffering and the consequent arising of never ending, blissful consciousness.

This is a feel good message.  If you are down and out, feeling miserable - rejoice for a way exists for you to escape that situation.

You say life is about connection not detachment.  If you mean connection in the sense that you are attached to something or someone, then I would disagree with you.  The more attachments you have the less freedom you experience.  This is because your attachments limit the range and scope of your responses. 

To he who has achieved enlightenment, more shall be added unto him; to he who has not, even that which he has shall be taken from him.

You say that love invariably leads to suffering.  I disagree with that statement as well.  There is nothing in love that leads to attachment or desire.  If you feel anguish because you have lost a loved one, then consider the nature of what it is you are calling love.  Perhaps the anguish you feel is because of the loss of the attachment you had.  Has your love for your husband changed since his death?  Obviously not.  So love is not the source of your misery.

It pleases me that you feel sorry for the fact that I have had to live with a life threatening painful medical condition.  The reason I am pleased is because your sorryiness is the the first step in acquiring compassion.  Compassion stems from the ability to put yourself in the others person's shoes.  Well done!

Your Buddy on the Path - Poguru

You're a fucking nutcase.

Edit: I realize the above may have been too blunt. What I should have said, is that trying to sell parents of fragile children on the concept of eternal spirits making the possible passing in this life more acceptable, based on wishful thinking and repeated bong hits, ranks up there with the worst theology you can find, and that those trying to sell others on this concept are fucking nutcases.

Dear Chansen Old Buddy,

You angry with your lot in life.  Your anger and frustration has unbalanced you and caused you to lash out.  I understand that and forgive you. 

My prayer for you is that you achieve a measure of peace.

Your Buddy on the Path - Poguru

I guess it's my turn to be condescending - if your ultimate goal is "SAT- CHIT- ANANDA" -  you poor bugger, !

(That's just words -seems to me it would be impossible to EXPERIENCE " never ending blissful consciousness" -if (1) you're human and (2) if you didn't have anything to contrast it too, how would you know it was blissful consciousness?)

Er, no. A description of you as a "fucking nutcase" seems to suggest otherwise.....

I meditate on a regular basis  -and find it helpful, too.......

But -

Please re-read what you have written here. It seems rather impersonal to me and, as such (my turn to be condescending here) I think you may be missing out  on so much. Other folks are to like and even dislike at times - and especially to love - not merely to "interact" with.

 [quote=Poguru]

The purpose of this thread was to awaken people to the fact that we are all miserable, yourself included, by your own admission.  The second is to examine the causes of that misery.  The third is to make people aware that they don't have suffer.  And the fourth is ennuciate the path or means to achieve the cessation of suffering and the consequent arising of never ending, blissful consciousness.

 This is a feel good message.  If you are down and out, feeling miserable - rejoice for a way exists for you to escape that situation.

 [quote=Poguru]

Hey, Poguru, old buddy - it's a bit of a stretch to interpret what I said as being "down and out, feeling miserable".

What I meant to imply was that I miss the  full life I enjoyed with my husband - but, pleased to say, there are many happy and contented moments that I'm still able to enjoy.

What I'm missing is the intimacy of being part of a couple. I suspect the reason has to do more with fear of experiencing the grief that any relationship necessarily entails.

(Either boy loses girl, or vice versa - or boy loses boy, or girl loses girl, etc etc).

You may not give this much thought, but at my age, I certainly do.........

Your post ending totally floored me.. Your condescension in saying "Well done" for me being on the first step in acquiring compassion because "compassion stems from the ability to put yourself in the other person's shoes" -was a definite WTF??? moment for me.

Howzabout putting yourself in Chansen's shoes, instead of trying to force his feet into your shoes?

Ironic as it may sound, I do have compassion for you.

I suspect you, like me (and many others) finds it difficult for love to override fear.......

Upon further reflection, you're still a fucking nutcase.

Don't other people see the idiocy of these sorts of beliefs? Don't you see how fucking terrible it is to tell someone that their kid's life isn't that important, because hey, he or she is some eternal spirit? I can not denounce this thinking too strongly, and this is from a believer who could be described as someone with a liberal set of beliefs, to say the least.

People like to criticize me for not differentiating between liberal and conservative Christianity. Well, here is someone who could never be described as a Baptist or evangelical or any sort of conservative Christian, saying the most boneheaded thing possible about the life of a child.

God guides me through the suffering rather than avoid it. I can't imagine relying on my own strength when I would be at my most vulnerable.

I think it's human nature to adopt the explanation which blunts the pain a little, even if only artificially

Hi PP Old Buddy,

You said:   "seems to me it would be impossible to EXPERIENCE " never ending blissful consciousness"

As J. Bach put it: "Argue for your limitations and sure enough you have them".  Just because you think it is impossible to experience never ending, blissful consciousness does not mean that it is unattainable.  In fact, one of the main purposes for teaching the tenets of Buddhism is to disavow people of the mistaken notion that they don't have what it takes to achieve enlightenment.  I have great faith in your abilities, more so than you have in yourself, it appears. 

You can contrast your own miserable existence with that of others who have achieved enlightenment such as Jesus or the Buddha.  That gives you a goal to shoot for and it will assist in helping you to get over the mistaken notion that enlightenment is impossible for you.

Your uncivil chatacterization of me as a nut case is most uncharitiable.  However, I forgive you for it.

 You said: "Other folks are to like and even dislike at times".  Liking and disliking are both forms of attachment.  In the first case you develop and attachment to the person you like.  In the second case you develop an attachment to the aversion for the person you dislike.  Both are attachments and are driven by desire.  The first by a desire to be attached to the person you like and the second by a desire to remain averse to the person you dislike.  Both of these are hinderence.to achieving enlightenment.

You said: "What I meant to imply was that I miss the full life I enjoyed with my husband - but, pleased to say, there are many happy and contented moments that I'm still able to enjoy.

What I'm missing is the intimacy of being part of a couple. I suspect the reason has to do more with fear of experiencing the grief that any relationship necessarily entails."

I understand perfectly.  You are attached to the fleshy pleasures you previously experienced and, now that you don't have them anymore, you experience the misery associated with their lack.  This shows two things.  First, that you are miserable and fearful and second, that you have attachments which generate your misery.

You said: "Howzabout putting yourself in Chansen's shoes, instead of trying to force his feet into your shoes?"  Your comment is again uncharitiable, however, I forgive you.  Do you imagine that Chansen is the only person in the world who is suffering or has suffered?  I provided you with a single example of the nature of my own suffering but I could have just as easily chosen other examples beyond what I have revealed. Is my suffering any worse than Chasen's or yours?  How would you make that determination?

In any event, it is beside the point.  The point is that we are all suffering.  You, yourself, have admitted to suffering.  Who is not suffering?

This is called the "Truth of Suffering".

Your Buddy on the Path - Poguru

Well, at least you don't seem detached from me - well done!

(I didn't call you a "fucking nutcase" - I was quoting Chansen, btw!)

Hi PP Old Buddy,

As Buddhists, we are required to cultivate Bodhicitta or the desire to attain enlightenment for the benefit of all sentient beings.  I think of you as one of those sentient beings.

Your Buddy on the Path - Poguru

Oh possum, your arrogance astounds me......

That said, I wish you a Happy New year, I really do.....

Dear Chansen Old Buddy,

Your anger and misery is causing you to lash out at me.  This anger is not good for you.  It generates all kinds of negative physical reactions within your body, which if extended over time, will cause you great pain in the form of stomach ulcers, high blood pressure and a host of other negative consequences.  Your anger is damaging to yourself and to those around you.  It causes you to attempt to harm others physically, mentally, emotionally, verbally and in writing.  Hence your characterization of me as a nutcase. 

However, I forgive you.

Also I did not tell you your son's life was unimportant.  You made that statement up out of your rage and misery which has unbalanced you.  In fact, your response has been quite over the top.  All I have been doing with this post is pointing out that everyone is suffering. 

You characterize these Buddhist teachings as idocy but that is because you have not studied them in depth.  Again this is a sign that you are unbalanced.  Surely, you must entertain the study before you can determine if it is idocy or not.

You also resort to the use of profanity as if that will lend weight to your position.  Rather than lending wieght to your statements, they lend weight to the contention that you are emotionally unbalanced and suffering..

My comments pertain not only to children but all people, yourself included.  They are not boneheaded as you characterized them but carefully thought out conclusions drawn from acute observation.  Perhaps if you actually studied them you might adopt a different more charitable attitude towards them. 

Regardless, you do not do yourself any honor by reacting in such a fashion and, in fact, are generating negative karma for which you will be required to subsequently atone.

Your Buddy on the Path - Poguru

I'm using profanity because normal words do not convey how much of a fucking nutcase you are. And, I don't want your forgiveness, and I'm not about to offer mine. Most of your beliefs are cute, if incomprehensible. Your beliefs on this matter are disgusting, and while many people would not tell you for fear of offending, that's not a concern I share. Religion has a way of trivializing lives, and your way of trivializing lives is nothing new, but it is disgusting. Your attempt to comfort might work with some people who are desperate to put a positive spin on the potential loss of a child, but it's baseless and stupid, and it deserves nothing less than the strongest possible rebuke.

Hi All,

Just passing on some pastoral advice that I have found helpful over the years.  I don't know what the cost to me was to acquire it (tuition for a couple of courses and then some of my own sweat and tears--no blood that I am aware of) I offer all of it to you for free and you can determine what you find valuable and what you don't.

For caregivers (or care-giver wannabes or helpers or helper wannabes)

1.  Never address anyone you are attending to in familiar terms unless you actually are familiar with that person or have been invited to be familiar with that person.  (Newfoundlanders and Labradorians are the exception to this rule as they call everyone my love or my lover).

2.  Whatever the situation or the complaint it is never about you so keep you personal agenda out of conversation with the person you intend to care for.

3.  Being present with is more important than problem solving.

4.  Shut up and listen and then, when you feel you absolutely have to say something, ask for permission to use the bathroom and go count to 100 before coming back.  When you get back, than the person you are caring for for their patience and shut up and listen some more.  (You can talk when you are asked a question, all answers should be brief and "I don't know" is an acceptable answer).

5.  Shut up and listen.  Seriously, I wasn't kidding with #4

6.  Yes, I should have started with Shut up and listen.  You actually have to introduce yourself though.  Just walking up to someone and sitting down with them and not introducing yourself (particularly if the person you are caring for is a stranger) is creepy.

7.  Yes, shut up is rather strong.  Obviously not strong enough because people don't do it.

For those being cared for (no matter how successfully or unsuccessfully)

1.  You have the right to dismiss your caregiver or caregiver wannabe.

2.  It should be all about you and what you are feeling.  As soon as it isn't feel free to ask your caregiver to leave.

3.  You have the right to set boundaries and others should respect them (save for when respecting those boundaries would result in harm coming to you).

4.  In the event that your caregiver or caregiver wannabe is not helpful to you you have the right to seek out another.

5.  Getting angry with a failed caregiver or caregiver wannabe robs you of your strength and vitality and shifts focus back onto the failure.  It is a reversal of roles that you should not play into.

And yes, if anyone feels any of those points are pointing directly at them then perhaps the best service they can provide for themselves is to sit on their hands, count to 100 and reflect why that is.

I intend to exercise a pastoral approach to anything but technical responses to any of the above points.

Grace and peace to you.

John

John, I'm not looking for pastoral care, and I'm sure as hell not looking to Poguru for that service. That said, your advice to caregivers above is brilliant. I hope that's something I take with me going forward.

John, I'd add a #8 to your advice on how to help people, and that would be: "know your audience" when attempting to hand out advice.


Poguru, I'm not sure what type of response you expected, but a bit of compassion and understanding on your side was in definate order here.

When we talk about suffering, it is important to distinguish between physical pain and mental suffering. The former, as a necessary condition of our biological existence, is unavoidable. The latter, however, is based on what we think. This is the suffering of the mind, the suffering we can get beyond.

The suffering of the mind is what Buddhists talk about when they say we can get beyond suffering.

The suffering of the mind can be overcome when we detach our thinking from the preoccupation with the form or world of forms, and focus on the substance. The form is constantly changing, the substance is forever. The form is physical, the substance spiritual. The form is matter, the substance is energy. The form is relative and illusory, the substance is absolutely true.

We are form as well as substance. Unfortunately, most of us focus only on being form. In deep mediation we can experience being substance. Then the attachment to the form wanes, and with it the mental suffering that comes from being overly attached to the form. 

The only suffering is the suffering of the mind.

-Lao Tsu

Dear Chasen Old Buddy,

You use profanity because you do not have any cogent arguements to present and feel that if you charge your words with emotionally laden connotation that they will be taken as a sign of sincerity.  If you had any faith in your position, you would not have to resort to denegrating comments and the use of profanity. 

As usual you misunderstand the nature of forgiveness.  My forgiving you is not for your benefit - it is for mine.  I have no desire to go through life harbouring a deep seated resentment towards you because I understand how debilitating and crippling this can be.  So I let go of the anger and forgive you.  This benefits me.   Try it - see how it works for you.

You think religion tivializes lives but in fact, it provides life with a richness and depth it might not otherwise have had providing you sincerely study them. 

You characterize my attempt to provide some people with comfort in the midst of their misery as baseless and stupid.  I sincerely doubt that very many people would see those actions in such a light.  It is true that many people would rather wallow in their own misery than seek a solution or accept commiseration from those more charitably inclined than yourself

Feel free to cast dispersions on my ideas, utilize profanity to ridcule me and generally castigate me in a public forum.  I assure you that the only person you are injuring is yourself.

I am not discomfitted.

Your Buddy on the Path - Poguru

As an interesting adjunct to this idea that the nature of samsaric existence is suffering can be found in the Christian characterization of Jesus as a "Man of Sorrows".

This is an important clue.

Your Buddy on the Path - Poguru

When I was younger I had a friend who, when presented with words like those on this thread would say "The mind boggles.................."

I really don't have much to add to these words, beyond pointing out that I find some people's belief system puzzling.

A neighbour came to my house, came in, and immediately allowed tears to fall.  She was feeling about as devastated as she had ever felt.  She had just shared time and words with her daughter who frequently tells people that she is 'very spiritually alive".  This daughter (a mid life adult) is 'really into' positive thinking and manages to avoid/deny anything that isn't totally positive.  When her mom told her about the diagnosis she had just received (terminal) the daughter said "Be happy.  Everything is exactly as it is supposed to be".  Then she left without giving her mom a hug.

Somehow I don't think this interpretation of 'detachment is useful!

Well said Arminius.  

As it's been said before, "the further the race progresses and the more the mind develops, the greater seems the capacity for suffering. But when suffering is seen in its true light and dedicated to divinity, it can be used as an instrument whereby we approach nearer to God". To me, these words are in line with the words "suffer the children unto to me", for only as we 'learn from experience' do we begin to approach God awareness.

If you don't believe in the mind ... is this positive thinking ... a sort of denial ...

Mind boggling empiric ... of a dimension when mental suffereing is disallowed ...

Alas suppress it and it'll come out where least expected ... then who believed Freud either as a chilling thinker?

Explains thin(k)s coming out of nowhere ... the netherlands as an icon? I'll bedam'd ...

This is just a plug for the mind ... like Bung! Any old whine 'll do if you listen real well ... tell a story and it'll become myth ... nun will believe in metaphysical cognizance ... too much like thinking ... the donkiesdon't like that kinda Job ...

Hi chansen,

Whether we are in the process of providing pastoral care or not there are some pastoral strategies that grease the skids of conversation.  We may not find them appropriate for every conversation, we should not push them so far away that they are out of reach.

Whatever you find of value, I trust you to make excellent use of when pushed into that service.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi Neo,

That is a very profound point that many fail to comprehend.  One of the most prominent failures in theory of mind is the inability to separate the mind of the self from the mind of the other.  Which leads to the self believing that all others think what they think and believe what they believe.  It fails to provide the other with intrinsic value.

So rather than #8  I'd bump it up to #2 or #3 and drop the others down one respectively.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Suffering and the four noble truths remind me of two related philosophies - A Course In Miracles and Gnosticism (as well as Buddhism).

All believe in effect that we left the Garden of Eden, a reality created by God. We left on our own accord, not expelled by a wrathful God, and have ended up in a reality that God didn't create. And so we are now subject to random effects. Some of us truly suffer. Others have a reasonably good life. But the aim of all of us should still be to get back into that Garden/Kingdom situation where there is no suffering.

A big problem is that the word "suffering" is quite severe. Most of us don't suffer that much but still have day to day problems. Even these would go away if we could change our reality - admittedly very difficult to do.

Poguru - I still think you push the idea of punishment (Karma) left over from a past life too much. This suggests that the Big Guy has a bit of a mean streak, which I can't accept.

Perhaps this is the perspective of the Big Guy from the alternate side of the infinite ... devil've thing ... like satyrs on the brain ... stormy weather of thought?

Disturbing the emotional calm ... could that go the other way? Ur as Semite, mire icon ...

No wonder you don't believe in God if you have been taught all your life that He is in control and that suffering must be His will.  The fact is that when He blessed Adam and Eve, he turned over control of this planet to them and said to have dominion and multiply.  They in turn handed this world over to Satan when they sinned and did what God said not to do. 

But the fact of the matter is God loves you.  So much so that He gave His only Son to get us back to the blessing state. 

When God learned from Adam and Eve's discovery ... did heh become a thinking god?

There's names for those sorts ... ineffable ... wouldn't touch that with a 10-foot'd pole ... but perhaps with a short plume plucked from aswan'sass ...

Is that an irregular runnon flighty buttes ... role'n barrels ... cheekei with fattai?

I want to scream "For Fuck's Sake" but I am not supposed to swear and someone would think I was taking a jab at someone's cup of sake.

I have no words for how disgusting I find this.

The Buddha, or let's say the Dalai Lama,  would not say to the parent of a dying child, "Quit suffering, your child is an energy". They would know to temper what they believe (which is BTW for themselves) with what that person believes or what would bring harm and what would bring comfort... they have more manners and humanity than THIS!

Want proof?

http://www.consolatio.com/2005/05/the_dalai_lama_.html

This can heal. This is kind and compassionate and gentle.

What I have read here by Poguru is not. It creates suffering.

It IS ignorance.

I know hell-fire-and-brimstone preachers who 100% believe homosexuals burn who know better than say that asked by a parent or at someone's child's deathbed or funeral. Then you have the stupid ones who speak before thinking, the ill mannered ones who offer an opinion not asked for, the ones who are asked and start a conversation and don't know when to sidestep or shuck and jive or step off... then you have the Westboro Baptist group (aka the Phelps clan).

I am not sure which group you fall into, Poguru, but it is not the Dalai Lama approach.

Poguru, I respect Buddhist beliefs. I also know many Buddhists who would themselves find your words, your choices, reprehensibly callous.

I would say the same if it was non-Buddhist and someone said "It ain't so bad, your baby is about to go to heaven" or "God needs another angel"

I just cringed at it.

There are very valid reasons religion sickens people. Those reasons are often provided to them by religious people.

We will be more like the Buddha or the Christ when we realize this. When we practice holy manners... when we practice hospitality... when we practive compassion, humanity, understanding.... when loving others comes FIRST before our own ego, our own beliefs, our own agenda,  and our own shit.

Chansen, my heart breaks for you.
IMO There is NO religion, NO theology, NO science, NO medicine, NO philosophy, NO practice, NO life approach... et al that makes this less painful or that will magically erase your family's suffering.

Sigh.

If it helps, makes no sense to me, either.

Hi Jamesk Old Buddy,

On the contrary, I feel that the "Big Guy", as you call him, is exceedingly merciful.  He has provided a mechanism through reincarnation which gives you a chance to atone and redeem yourself by expunging negative karma and creating good karma. 

Karma is the mechanism of justice but it is tempered with mercy in the mechanism of reincarnation.

This doesn't sound mean to me at all.  Just the opposite in fact.  If you do wrong, you create bad karma.  To expunge that bad karma you must feel true regret, obtain forgiveness and atone.  When you complete those three tasks, you will be able to hold your head up again and feel worthy of God's mercy.  This will create a sense of positive self worth.  Reincarnation is the mechanism that provides you with the opportunity to feel that way.

Your Buddy on the Path - Poguru

Dear SG Old Buddy,

You are being grossly unfair to me.  I forgive you. 

Your Buddy on the Path - Poguru

Someone calls you on being a sanctimonious twit, and you immediately forgive them, as if anyone else here believes they want or care about your forgiveness.

The next time someone brings up Buddhism as a religion no one could possibly have a problem with, your posts will stand as a shining example of why they're wrong.

this is a good larnin' opportunity for Poguru -- through these threads of theirs they can see just how well they grok their subject...

goodonya chansen for putting up with the attempts and for maintaining your humour...i did cringe, myself, at part of this thread so far :3

*breaks out the popcorn*

amygdula,  i barely knew 'im :3