I hope Pinga and Pilgrims find this thread.

Hi Crazyheart - good idea starting this over again - I wanted to contribute to the other thread but got a bit overwhelmed.

I think I agree - it all depends on the testimony itself, and it's purpose. I am perfectly comfortable discussing my experience and relationship with the Holy, because it is mine and I am familiar with it; and I am comfortable with other people sharing in a discussion context - people's experience of the Divine absolutely intrigues me. But if it's a salespitch 'my God is better than your God', or if it's a competition, 'I'm closer to Him than you', I very quickly find myself tuning out uncomfortably. If it's something we can share, like 'Oh yes, isn't He great?', or differ on in a civil adult discussion, though, that I'm fine with.

I'm currently participating in a four-session 'What in the World do we believe?' at my church, which is basically to familiarize ourselves with our faith and church in preparation for membership, and while my theology is not identical to that of *everyone* in the group, we are quite comfortable discussing it because there is no judgement or competition, and while we have different perspectives at the end of the day we respect each other and each other's relationship with God, even if it's not exactly the same as our own.

I wasn't part of the other thread, so I don't know if I am making points previously made.  My apologies, if I am.

I grew up in a church in which some people thought sharing their socalled "testimony" was important.  For two reasons, I think it was a negative thing.

• I suspect that many of those giving testimonies embellished how bad they had been.  There seemed to be a mentality that one was a "better" Christian if one had recovered from a worse past -- the bigger my sins, the greater my salvation, ergo God loves me more than you  : b
• testimonies were often what you could call "Christian porn".  The person giving their testimony were given licence to talk about sex, drugs and anything else.  Though most appeared contrite, many talked about their past lifestyle with a glint in their eye, as though they expected you to envy them.  As someone with a squeaky clean upbringing, stories about women didn't really draw me closer to God.  It just made me wonder if I was missing out on something.

I don't see the point of testimonies.

thanks for sharing that, Jeffery.  I think those are very valuable points.

Were you ever asked or did you ever give a personal testimony at that church?  I wonder how a testimony from someone with a "squeeky clean upbringing" would be received when the group is used to hearing from people with rougher pasts.

and thanks to you, too, Blackbelt.  I hadn't thought really about WHO those testimonies were speaking to.

I think there are multiple forms of testimony, and maybe the flavour is different based on the denomination, faith, individual and locale.

The faith in action that I was referring to was how faith plays out in our life.  It was a 3-min time in worship to share how your faith is lived out.

In the time, I spoke to why I spend time volunteering in church structures, as well as my personal faith challenge  regarding spending so much time in organziational aspects of our church....

I also used the time to speak to my  challenges of living my faith in the workplace.  The little highs, combined with the massive lows of injustice using concrete examples.

So, it was a personal faith statement of not what I believe, but, how my faith influences my behaviour.

I also did a faith journey many years ago with others that was very powerful.  We were a small group which had been together for approx 4 weekend sessions.   We did our faith journey however we chose...i did mine using music...and how my faith had changed from childhood to current.....and it was tough to do..but, the relationships that formed from doing it were amazing.   Again, mine was full of doubt and challenge...and I shared stuff with those folks that I have not shared with many in my life.  An example from there was discussing the loss of the twins....and having folks say "god did this"...and how that drove me into a deeper understanding of faith and my ability to articulate it.

I have been asked to share regarding my journey as a gay person of faith. I have also shared about coming from another faith perspective and on topics like mental illness and addiction. 

I have never heard testimony  that was based on how low or bad someone was and/or how better they are now than others.... I know there are certainly many places where they do "saved a wretch like me" style testimony, but I have not heard one personally.

I went to a baptism by immersion at a LakeHouse where testimony was given by 12 or so young adults from 16 and up.

To a one they "found Jesus" at 3 or 4 years and when they started hanging out with kids who had not "found Jesus"( in high school), they found that they were so much better than these kids. I took offence when I heard this because I knew some of the kids they hung out with. They were fine young adults even if they hadn't "found Jesus" in the same context.

We use testimonials in my UU church as part of Canvass (annual pledge drive), The stories tend to be "why I am a UU" or "how this church (more so than UU'ism as a faith) got me through my hard times". Certainly, the nature of UU'ism tends to militate against "I was a wretch but God made me whole" type testimony, although I wouldn't say it's totally absent. Occasionally, we'll have testimony at other times or in small group ministry, but the Canvass testimonials tend to be the major ones.

Mendalla

why would you take offence? and not be nuturing instead? being a young adult means they have growing up to do, do you think it is no diffrent in the christian community.

some think as soon as one becomes Christian , poof  there mature in all ways

Generally I don't like testimonials.  I remember one time I was taking a course (I think it was in communication).  An in class assignment was given.  Take a few minutes to write a one page letter thanking someone who had been influential in your life, and then read it to the group.  Several of us did so.  I thanked a Sunday School teacher from my youth. 

Then it was John's turn to read his one page.  Well he didn't have time to write what he wanted to say, so he began his testimonial.  In what was supposed to be a short letter, in this case to his wife, he began with what a wonderful woman she was to have stuck by him, you see he hadn't had a good Christian up-bringing although his family went to church and took him to Sunday School.  And in his marriage he sinned.  He committed adultery.  He felt guilty.  His daughter was born with a deformity.  He felt God was punishing him.  His guilt drove him to dispair - he ended up in a psycho ward - then he saw God.  On and on he went into far more detail than anybody needed to know.  In my opinion an experienced facilitator would have stopped him after five minutes.  But he went on and on - over 20 minutes until class time was over.  No one else had a chance to talk. 

At least twice more over the next year or so in study groups with him, I had the misfortune to listen to this testimony.  Any excuse and he would give it - almost word for word the same.   No one has been as bad a sinner as he.  No one has sunk as low as he has.  No one has been forgiven as much.  Or that is the impression he gives. 

If that is what testimony is, then I don't like it.

On the other hand, last year people from session in my congregation were asked to talk to the group of teens and adults who were taking classes with a view towards confirmation.  Each of us spoke for a few minutes telling what our faith meant to us and how we tried to live out our faith.  I enjoyed giving my 'testimony' and listening to the others and the young people displayed their interest when they were given an opportunity to ask questions. 

I think the above sentence is a good place to start the discussion.

Over my lifetime, I've witnessed many personal testimonies.

My first experience was long ago, as an impressionable teen-ager, in the era of the Billy Graham crusades. As I recall, it was a bit like watching a popular movie of that time, Psycho. Testimonies then were a terrifying sight that kept you fascinated and glued to the spot. They usually revolved around someone who lead a life of sin, suffered because of it, and then "found" God and were "saved" and now led a Godly life. They were now so pleased at getting a passport to Heaven and an eternal life (who really wants to die?) that they felt compelled to spread the good news and save as many souls as they could.

Over the years, I heard many more moderate testimonies. These were given by people who said that God had come into their lives - and since that time - their lives were motivated simply by the idea of "what would Jesus do?" If they mentioned what was wrong about their life before God, it concerned an emptiness rather than sin.

Until recently, my experience of personal testimony was one of observer, rather than experiencing a life changing moment of faith myself.

Nobody could have been more surprised than I, when I had a spiritual/religious experience. It has truly been life changing. The end result was a shift in perception of how I saw reality. I saw that we are all connected, part of a marvellous whole. Most of our lives are an illusion of separation -living through our own ego.

One marked change is that I no longer welcome conflict - because it doesn't matter who is "right" or who is "wrong" - the end result of conflict is separation and alienation. Also, now that I've  experienced a sense of unity I actually care more about God, nature and mankind.

Now, with such a life changing shift in perception, is it any wonder that I wish to share this good news?

It so happens, that I find it difficult to speak publically about this, so instead I speak to small groups and write( always my preferred medium).

I might add that I don't feel in any way superior because of this experience, just blessed. Besides, I believe this experience is open to all. A beginning place is to embrace our emotions - particularly the painful ones. Once you're in the business of distracting and distancing yourself from your pain, you're distancing yourself from you. Watch how you act when your emotions come into play, do you distance yourself by being embarrassed, change the subject, etc.?

Hilary, that is a good point and another reason that the "testimonial faith" is not necessarily a good one.  As I alluded to above, it promotes this idea that only those who have overcame some "significant" sin have had a true conversion experience.  If you follow this to its obvious conclusion, people like me cannot "really" be saved.  The front pews will always be occupied by the recovered philanderers and bikers.

This was a tension at the church I grew up in.  One could see a division between the squeaky-cleaners (second or third generation church leaders or their wives and daugthers (our church was very strict about gender divisions)), who tended to be uncomfortable with testimonies, and those rising from rock bottom, who reveled in them.  Funny, the post-rock-bottomers (people now in their late 50s and 60s) have, almost to a couple, have all divorced their post-conversion spouses in the last 15 years.

Should my Baptist pastor ever ask me to give a testimony in church, I'm going to have to start by saying that God gave me new life when I was baptized as an infant in the United Church.

Ouch, I don't think he would like that one at all. It's not exactly the Baptist point of view.

Then I'd go on to say how God kept me in His grace and continues to refresh and strengthen my faith as I heed His call to read His Word, take part in communion, and seek forgiveness of sins. I don't know how well any of that would go over either.

Maybe I should just be happy that he hasn't asked me... yet.

It is interesting, as I read this item..as the kind of thing that we have been doing is no where near some of the comments made above re testimonies they have seen/heard.

I went to wikipedia, which I know is not a source..and found the following:

In the Religious Society of Friends, the word testimony is used to refer to the ways in which Friends testify or bear witness to their beliefs in their everyday lives. In this context, the word testimony refers not to the underlying belief, but the committed action which arises out of their beliefs, which testifies to their beliefs. Common areas which modern Friends are said to testify are testimony towards peace, testimony to simplicity, testimony to truth and integrity, testimony to equality.

It seems that the "faith in action" testimony which  referred to speaks to that...and, i think, in looking at it...i was sharing the struggle that i have with my faith as it pertains to some of those items....

I think personal testimonies can be a valuable way for members of the congregation to share/participate in worship services. Like any other part of worship, it can be done well or badly, so some planning/preparation will surely make a difference.

In most cases I think personal testimonies should be short and should refer to recent experiences of God in the life of that person. They should be as clear and simple as possible, not dressed up in special language or theology. They should encourage others. They should fit in with the rest of the service. They are not mini-sermons! (Of course, some individuals have powerful testimonies that justify going beyond this. Some could even be used as sermons.)

Testimonies of people who have recently come to faith can encourage long-time members whose faith may be stale and encourage potential members who don't yet understand that faith makes a difference. Those are important testimonies, but I see them as a special category. In principle we should testify to God's blessings throughout our lives.

I consider testimonies shared in a small group to be rather different, though some of them might also be useful for sharing with the entire congregation (possibly after some editing, in cooperation with whoever is leading the worship).

I write as someone who is not comfortable giving a personal testimony, except perhaps in a small group. I have been inspired by some testimonies and (unfortunately) bored by others. But I hope I can always admire the appreciate the effort someone has taken to stand up and share some of their personal life story with a mixture of friends and strangers. And honestly I think I should be willing to do the same. Maybe, one day?

I used to know a woman who regularly attended "camp meeting" to listen to all the gossip and how evil some folks thought they were.  Her reason for going was to collect the dirt and she loved it expecially knowing the background of the individuals and then folowi them for some time later.  Very revealing.

I have to agree with  Jeffery and seeler.  The real testimony is to be found in ones life not in their words.  Actions do speak louder then words.  One great church father once said "evangelise yes, but with words only if necessary.

jThe longest "testimony" I ever heard was a two hour sermon.  That was ridiculous.  Along with that went the constant harangue of "have to repent and be saved."  Talk about precing to the converted.  I left that church.

Yes, I;ve heard the comment after the death of a child that God must have wanted it that way.  Bunkum! .  That is akin to saying hurricane Katrina was sent to chastise the American people.  What does that say about God?

This whole bit aboutmaking folks feel down and utterly dirty is harmful and not in the least helpful.  We all know we are not perfeft and we have no need to wallow in our self pity with "weeping and knashing of teeth."

Shalom

Mate

mate: agreed..   What is interesting though, is sometimes it is someone's else testimony or commentary which can drive someone to say "heh, I hadn't thought of it that way", or "hmmm...no...."...and then into their own self-exploration / study etc.

Question: 

Is there any group that doesn't see testimony as something where one is wallowing. 

Truly, that is not how I have ever experienced it in the United Church of Canada, so I am suprised by the  comemntary on the thread.

Pinga, in all the years I have attended the United Church, I can't rememeber ever hearing a personal testimony by a person from the congregation. Is this new?

I don't know.

I did personal testimony has to be over 10 years ago in small group.

As part of our confirmation  class, we often do some form of testimony and the mentors sometimes do them too.

Definitely do that kind of stuff when working with you.

Again, I use testimony lightly, due to the heavy images it carries from other denominations.  My sense is the United Church flavour have always been more like the friends information that I pulled in.

Pinga

My experience has been that if one sees that a Christian has something to offer they will ask.  This then leaves me an opening where I am answering the question and not just making a statement to many who have no interest in my statement and who may be turned off by such as we have noted in posts above.

Shalom

Mate

Mate, I'm not following -- are you saying that there isn't a place for testimony in a service -- as each member of the pew hasn't asked, or are you meaning in normal conversation with folks that you would wait to be asked?

Pinga

In many churches that approach would drive folks away.  It is acceptable in many churches but I certainly would not be present.  If folks want to have that sort of thing then they can go to that kind of church.  For me personally I've found a more satisfactory relationship with the Divine in my approach. 

If we want to evangelise then let us do so by our actions.  You would be surprised at how many will notice and want to know what you are experiencing.  Those who don't want to know won't as and won't listen if presented willy nilly to them.

In short it may be and acceptable in some places and has no role in others.

This whole issue raises the question of what is meant by salvation or being saved.

Shalom

Mate

Pinga

Perhaps you would like to give some thought to this question.  What can one possibly say, in testimony, to a Muslam who already knows they are on the right path as they are?

My view is as stated elsewhere.  Each faith is a response to the persons experience of the Divine.  The particular faith is simply and expression of that faith "trust".  Thus I am a Christian pluralist which some say I cannot be.  I will continue my trust.

This reminds me of a story Rabbi Daum told.   After being asked if he would quote the whole of the Torah he replied "Thou shalt love the Lord they God with all your heart mind and sould.  This is the whole of the Torah and all the rest is simply commentary."

Shalom

Mate

mate? I am unsure what you are referring to in your first post, as I don't recollect mentioning in any of my posts the idea that testimony refers to being saved?

Re your second post -- again i am confused.. I asked you for clarity, and I think you are suggesting that I am suggesting evangelizing to a Muslim to take away from their faith.  I would hope that a person of faith would share with me how they live out their actions..and I know people from other faith groups who have done so..not to convert, but to share wisdom and compare experiences. 

My sense is this all loops us back to an earlier post which is...the varying understanding of "testimony" and so, how that can lead to presumptions of actions.

Pinga

Those extras were simply things that crossed my mind as a result of "testimony".

Shalom

Mate

ok, that is fair....coz they were addressed at me, i thought you were thinking i felt that way....

I would love to hear testimony from a person of another faith, or..i wonder..i think an atheist/humanist? could give testimony, yes?

I took one of our contractors who was from India to Niagara Falls...on the way home, he talked about his volunteerism,and, through that, we got into how his faith leads him to action....i totally agree..it was a wonderful discussion ....and was a faith-in-action testimony from two different faith groups

Testimony, as far as I can tell, doesn't imply the perfect answer, or a knowledge which is greater than those around, or even an answer ....rather it is about personal story.

Pinga

Good points.  I recently attended a Sikh worship service.  Their desire for justice and compassion is every bit as much Christian as anything else.

Shalom

Mate