I don't findi it unreasonable to suppose that parables were written to illustrate points of wisdom.

I also don't find it unreasonable to suppose that the author may have intentionally used one parable to illustrate many such points, each of which must be dug out with study and dilligence.

I also don't don't find it unreasonable to suppose that the reader may find points which were not originally intended by the author, but are no less valid.

Many parables invite us into reconsidering our interpretations of events and situations in the world around us, and in turn, reflecting on our place in the world.

It's much like the Bible.

Those that have not received the Holy Spirit will not understand it the way it was meant to be.

The disciples had Jesus and He explained. The same today as the Holy Spirit is Jesus inside those, who received His Spirit,  interpreting for us.

The Bible states this in 1 Cor 2: 13+14

And we speak about these things, not with words taught us by human wisdom but with words taught us by the Spirit. And so we explain spiritual truths to spiritual people.  A person who does not have the Spirit does not accept the truths that come from the Spirit of God. That person thinks they are foolish and cannot understand them, because they can only be judged to be true by the Spirit

Well it's very fortunate that I have recieved the Holy Spirit. Now maybe we can dispense with the fallacy that I am not capable of understanding the Bible that some here would like to have people believe.

But I remember a few years back when you responded to someone, it may even have been me but I don't think it was, and you had said that you had received the Holy Spirit many times?

You say that you don't need Jesus for your faith and you have the Holy Spirit to help you understand scripture, but again the bible is in direct contradiction to those statements.

In John 14:26 it quotes Jesus as saying::

But the Helper will teach you everything and will cause you to remember all that I told you. This Helper is the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name.

The Holy Spirit is only received once and takes up residence with the believer.

Not sure what response you're referring to.... but even if that was the case, would there be a problem with that? Christians talk about "recieving" the Holy Spirit on many occasions all the time.

Do you think God is incapable of such a thing?

Well that's assuming that God's Holy Spirit doesn't help one understand what parts of the Bible to take literally and what parts to take figuratively.

You see if you had God's Holy Spirt, you'd be able to see beyond the words to what God actually wants you to understand from those scriptures.

Really? Then why do Christians seem to always be asking for the Holy Spirit to come among them? Why are they constantly telling other Christians that they need to have the Holy Spirit?

Where specifically in the Bible does it say that the Holy Spirit only indwells onece? And why don't more Christians seem to believe that?

I'm sure glad I don't have any of those difficulties, what with the Holy Spirit being in me.

Yes, I see that all the time but not from any "Born Again" Christians.

Some may be confusing the "Filling" of the Holy Spirit with the "Receiving/taking residence inside.

The two are different.

The Holy Spirit lives inside me and I continually have a spiritual battle with Him but things work out just fine when I relent and go with Him.

I also receive the filling of Him but that is just a power thing when you cry out in sincerity and His energy overwhelms you.

I can show you scripture that describes what I feel and have if you want. Just say the word.

Actually, I found a page that saves me a lot of typing if you are interested.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Spirit-filled.html

Sounds mind-numbing.  "Only our obedience to God's command...?"

While you're being obedient to a figment of your imagination...I'm feeling peckish.  God wants you to get me a donut.

A donut??  HOLEY!!!

The problem with our reading of parables is we think they are moral tales - in the gospels the editors often miss the point by adding editorial comments - the parable is a particular genre - reversals etc of expectations - cannot be read iiterally.  An example is the story of seeds be thrown out - the farmers who listened would say this is a bad farmer yet it is about the kingdom of God - thus a challenge to conventional thinking - to cause one to create an open space where new and unexpected insight can slide in.

Crossan has a great book on parables as well Brendan Scott does good work -

Yes, Pan, that is what I think.

Ahh, the occult tradition lives! :3  Occult just means "hidden", btw.

In the olden days, knowledge that was considered dangerous was often transmitted in code, so as not to alert the authorities (who still aren't very big on letting us be our own selves and are rightly afraid of people's power) and/or so that the unitiated wouldn't be 'damaged' by the information (a little knowledge is a dangerous thing).

Also, there are different ways to transmit information -- poetry does things that TV cannot and vice versa, ferinstance.

Ah! Poetry. The ultimate in transmitable things!  :)

I wonder how we could transmit love without anyone knowing about it?

I guess you will just have to tell the writers of Jesus that they are wrong because they aren't Jesus.  Or it wasn't fair for J R R Tolkien to write aboot dwarves, elves, and hobbits, because he wasn't one himself.  Or the various writers who can write aboot the alternate sex without actually being that sex themselves.  Or whites writing from the point of view of black people, because they aren't one themselves.

Tell me how you do with that :3

You sound serious!

My post was a play on words and meant to be taken as a fun pun but also serious about spreading love.

Brother BornFree,

Boring, sure, dull at times, sure; all of my words are 'in your head'; what you (and your Holy Ghost) do with the meaning that you have created and the purpose you put behind them (and the future purpose) is all up to you.  What are you going to do with your power?  :3  Give till it hurts...and then give some more!

I'm not sure I really understand where you are going with that?

Are you mad at me??

Sorry! I thought you were a Born Again Christian.

Please forgive me if I insulted you.

Was not my intent.

I do shoot back at a few on here who attack me but to me it is still all in fun.

My reading of Luke is that we (Luke's readers) are being told the secrets of the kingdom - being treated like the disciples - but the crowd was left more in the dark. So I think Luke is trying to write clearly, rather than leaving his readers to find hidden nuggets. Of course Luke did not write for 21st century Canadians!

Actually in Luke I think we are treated better than the disciples, because the narrator often points out things the disciples did not understand (as in the next chapter, Luke 9:43b-45).

The parables are not hidden messages - straigthforward reversal stories among other literary tropes -  They are not a secret message about the kingdom at all.  The best way to read them is to take off the editorial comments of the writers who soften the parables.

Take this one - a woman loses a coin ( a days wages) finds it and then throws a party worth more than the coin - does that make sense? Those who heard would be challenged to rethink the conventional wisdom of the day - the very hearing of the parable and the open space it creates is like the kingdom of God - not conventional understandings at all.

If you read the accompanying verses it makes more sense. Also the history behing ten silver coins is that Palestinian women received ten silver coins as a wedding gift.

Besides their monetary value, these coins held sentimental value like that of a wedding ring, and to lose one would be extremely distressing. Just as a woman would rejoice at finding her lost coin or ring, so the angels would rejoice over a repentant sinner.

Each individual is precious to God. He grieves over every loss and rejoices whenever one of his children is found and brought into the kingdom.

The complete verse is in Luke 15:8-10    "Or suppose a woman has ten silver coins and loses one. Does she not light a lamp, sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? And when she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost coin.' In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

THe point that Pan is making is that to get the parable itself you ned to avoid the editorial verses added by the evangelist.  Of course that would depend on how you view the Gospels, since if you don't think the editorials were added but came from Jesus then there would be no need to ignore them.

So Gord,

Show me in this verse the editorial verses that were added by another. And show me some proof other than what anyone connected to the Jesus Seminar and their voting with marbles on what they thought Jesus said or didn't.

Luke 15:8-10    "Or suppose a woman has ten silver coins and loses one. Does she not light a lamp, sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? And when she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost coin.' In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

Aside from the sentimenatal value, what makes you think that the party came anywhere close to the value of a Silver coin.?

Plus I would rather spend $60.00 on some groceries and have a dinner party for ten of my friends than spend the same amount on a single meal at a nice restaurant.

The 30 pieces of silver today would be worth around $950 today. According to the Professional Coin Grading Service, “The value of 30 of these coins was significant at the time. Such a sum likely would have purchased a small farm. Quite a bribe for the time…” On average, a Small farm goes for around $240,000 in our country today . . . which would consist of the farmhouse for the farmer and the family, barns, equipment, along with 120 acres on which to plant and harvest crops. To put it in terms most people can understand, $240,000 would buy:

• A 2007 Chevrolet Trailblazer for you and eight of your closest friends,

• a down payment on Luxury home, or

• outright buy a brand new home in most of the USA . . . in cash.

That girl could throw quite a party for 240,000 divided by 30 = $8.000 dollars. I know I could.

Pan,

I need some clarification here.

Are the parables about the Kingdom of God, or not?

Do you mean, yes, they are - and they're not a secret. Or no, they aren't about the Kingdom of God at all?

No, never mad.

I try to encourage here.

And trying to help with your role in what you think is true and not true in this thread.

"Please forgive me if I insulted you" says that you care, and that is a good thing :3

All I ask is, especially when you wrote "Sorry!  I thought you were a Born Again Christian." to be aware of how your thoughts and your feelings and what you think of as true and not true change.  I'd be especially aware of how you are going to act differently with me, if at all, due to YOUR feelings and thoughts and what you deem to be true and not true.

I am of the tribe of humanity and see way too many religious folks (and others) giving in to tribalism, that of "I am saved and you are not" or "I have the one true faith and you do not" (where Jesus, whatever, becomes a Way to Win) and that is something that I think that Jesus was trying to teach people to be aware of that and that it is possible to get beyond it.  We are all of the same tribe and sink or swim with each other, no matter our skin colour, our gender, what we like, dislike, who we sleep with, what we are disgusted by, what makes us laugh, what makes us cry, etc etc; no one is an island, universe is full of grace.
 

And when I write my posts, I often seem to 'consult' something else...now whether that is a part of me, the Holy Ghost, the Ground of Being, I do not know.

Oh, and in answer to your pun:   writers should be drawn and quoted :3

Yes they are about the kingdom of God but not secret messages about the kingdom.  One theory is the very hearing of them is an experience of the kingdom.  The parables open one to the experience of God.

As Gord and others have said one has to read them without the editorial comments from the gospel writers. The one that ch opens with are the editorial comments.

Another example is the mustard bush - look at it without the editorial comments and it becomes clear... mustard bushes are weeds yet here they provide shade for birds - try to imagine a bird sitting on  bush and you will laugh - then think of the cedars as signs of royality... at least two things happen - it is funny and it makes fun of royal images - roman-  conventional wisdom and images are reversed - the hearer is now open for the kingdom of God to slide into ones consciousnsess.  They are not moral tales.

Again if the good Samaritan was a moral tale it would have been a Jew taking care of the man... In the kingdom the one who is least expected to help - in fact the enemy - is the source of care... does that not transform expectations?  The editorial comments soften the parable of who is my neigbour? That is a preaching point but the radical point is the enemy is also of God and a source of God's presence.  Hearing it demands a paradigmn change.

The coin BF is about the silliness of spending more on the party than one could afford.   Or findaing a hidden coin in the field buying it and never going back for the treasurer... first to find a treasure and never telling the owner of the field it is there is to cheat the owner and then never coming back is silly.   It reverses all moral tales of the time - in the very hearing one is made open to the kingdom of God to slide in.

Big surprise - not to worry about today - let go of all conventional ideas - the widow would have been seen as less than honorable, the person buying the field less than honorable - yet the kingdom of God is like - a reversal of honor shame cultural givens.  A challenge to how the world is organized in its nice moralistic tight viewpoints of good and bad.

I think the parables are a nice way to point out our mistakes and then when we finally figure it out, we can give ourselves a pat on the back.

I think it is time to post some parables for discussion. Anyone want to start a new thread?

Jesus answers that question in Matthew 10 v 13-15 Amplified Bible

¹⁰Then the disciples came to Him and said, Why do You speak to them in parables?

    ¹¹And He replied to them, To you it has been given to know the secrets and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

    ¹²For whoever has [spiritual knowledge], to him will more be given and he will ^[a]be furnished richly so that he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

    ¹³This is the reason that I speak to them in parables: because ^[b]having the power of seeing, they do not see; and ^[c]having the power of hearing, they do not hear, nor do they grasp and understand.

    ¹⁴In them indeed is ^[d]the process of fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah, which says: You shall indeed hear and hear but never grasp and understand; and you shall indeed look and look but never see and perceive.

    ¹⁵For this nation's heart has grown gross (fat and dull), and their ears heavy and difficult of hearing, and their eyes they have tightly closed, lest they see and perceive with their eyes, and hear and comprehend the sense with their ears, and grasp and understand with their heart, and turn and I should heal them 

This says to me that if you are not Born Again of  The Spirit you can seen but you won't see or understand or perceive because you are not of Spirit but of the flesh and your perception is dull --heavy and closed to the things of the Spirit.

This is just my view--Blessings    

1 Corinthians 2:6-16  answers that.

I believe some parables are comments on the society of the time and people's attitudes about that society.  For example, the parable about the three servants given responsibility for large amounts of money at one level reflects the reality of the brutality and self-centredness of the extremely wealthy of that time.