I think onesidedly doctrinal spirituality has been the downfall of Christianity.

 

To me, "fishing on the 'other' side" is a metaphor for dabbling in experiential spirituality, also known as mystical spirituality.

 

 I think mystical is a misnomer because there is nothing mysterious about mystical experience. Mystical experience merely is experiencing reality as it really is, not as we think it is.

 

To experience the unconceptualized reality, all we have to do is refrain from thinking and just experience. Then we experience the unity which underlies all diversity, and the unitive love that keeps the separate, disparate and desperate parts of the universe galvanized into one inseparable whole, a.k.a. God.

 

Elementary, eh?

Hi GeoFee,

 

In answer to the OP question I think it is probably a bit of both.  It will be tough to determine which holds sway denominationally.

 

My experience with the Church as an institution is that it loves cliche and all things surface level.

 

My hope, born out of my knowledge of Church as an organism is that there is a desire for substance and depth.  Although there is a greater love for technical answers rather than adaptive ones.

 

 

Pretty difficult to find an individual who is undivided either in terms of standards or allegiances.  Especially difficult to find an individual who is undivided while facing a bar that is high.  Those who manage to attain a unity tend to be pathological or great at setting bars notoriously low.

 

So, even agreeing with the premise that folk are undivided with respect to allegiance how does one deal with that?

 

Can we shame folk into a more unified allegiance?  Ought we even try?

 

Can we inspire folk into a more unified allegiance?  What would that look like?

 

Do we accept that folk will be constantly divided and seek to find ways to make that work for all involved?

 

I'm not perfect, seems pointless to expect others to be.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

We are all so eager to receive the fish, not so eager to serve it. In other words God's love is not just something we recieve, it should also compel us to respond. One cannot live by the cross alone.

 

IMHO

 

 

Hi waterfall,

 

 

I think we are happy to sit in the boat and let the fish just jump in.  It happens right?

 

Sure it happens.  The only problem with this method of fishing is that it sucks and anyone relying on it might see a nice fish drop in their lap but most would die of starvation first.

 

What really makes us uncomfortable is the notion that if we want fish in the boat we are going to have to sweat and strain to drag them in.

 

Until the United Church can stop patting itself on the back pointing to all of its historic firsts and start producing something now that attracts we are going to be watching more fish swim by pursuing more exciting ventures than just leaping into our boat for no reason.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

That's what happens when you sit on a boat and row facing backward. The left side becomes the right side.  ;)

Well said, John.  Your words highlighted the verb I missed, fishing, but as a person with a fairly radical theology who also worked at being evangelical, I agree that too many in the UCCanada avoided fishing, and tended to avoid maintaining the integrity of the boat (comprehensive stewardship: Christian Edcuation, faith development, engaging members and non-members in real decision-making and work/mission as well as the financial and volunteer stewardship parts).  It was, and is, almost as though most are sleep-walking and get cranky with anybody who tries to wake them up.

One of my friends who read the "Fishing On the Other Side" document concluded that it seemed the UCC was attempting to re-arrange the deck chairs on the Titanic.

I've done a quick look over the document but will be doing an in-depth read for Tuesday.  Required reading for our next Presybtery meeting, followed by discussion.

 

It goes beyond that to proposing a flexible structure that will be continuously reshaped to meet the ongoing needs and interests of communities of faith.  There will no longer be firm or hard lines dividing up responsibilities.  It even allows for congregations to soften their boundaries as they are encouraged to negotiate fluid relationships with other congregations and other kinds of communities of faith, such as Naked Faith here in Calgary or the Bissell Centre in Edmonton in working towards various goals.  The reality that those congregations who are not into negotiating and exploring new territory will likely feel either cut adrift or able to hide in their own corners.

 

The challenge will be givig more specific shape to the denominational level which could no longer be called General Council as its function would be radically different.  It will probably be much more dispersed than currently exists with staff scattered across the country and located in offices rangng from home offices to store fronts and offices in various churches.  There will be a need for improved IT communication.

Hi gecko46,

 

 

Your friend is not likely the first to come to that conclusion.

 

I mean the clearest reason why we have nobody coming into the Church is the way that the denomination is organized.

 

It is plain as the nose on anyone's face, just listen to these testimonies from folk who decided to become a part of the United Church because the way we structure our courts was the most attractive thing about us.

 

 

And listen to these gushing testimonials from folk who have been avoiding the Church and involvement in it because of our original parts model.

 

 

So yeah with testimonials like those everybody get ready to rearrange deck chairs.

 

 

One thing you will find is that it proposes more holes than solutions to problems.  Apparently they are hoping that the holes will get plugged by future discussion.

 

They probably will because it appears to be an overwhelming consensus that we are just so fabulous that the only thing keeping folk from walking in through our door are our processes.

 

Nobody appears willing to consider that the biggest problem keeping folk from walking in through our doors is that we are so pathetic at walking out through them to invite people in.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

- Hi waterfall. --Then they must try when in a boat  to learn the rules. You have a port and a starboard . It never changes no matter which way you face. GODS way is like that . When you understand the way . You don't get mixed up. Rev John said the the U.C.C trys or lives on be the first. Yet  GODS way it would be better in that you were last. Because you were helping others to be first. --God Bless --airclean33

Hi Rev John-- You posted--

Nobody appears willing to consider that the biggest problem keeping folk from walking in through our doors is that we are so pathetic at walking out through them to invite people in.

_________________________________

Airclean--I think you hit somthing here John. I don't know if you ment this . But  in Peters fishing trip he was having some problems.  Jesus showed him how to catch fish  he told them to put down there nets on the other side.God brings the fish, Jesus is the fisher of men. We must learn to follow His direction, from the bible and from the Holy Spirit. God Bless -airclean33

More lenses for GeoFee

Deep pragmatism

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some more things I think aboot:  how does the ucc test its ideas?  how does the ucc throw out ideas that aren't working & what time scales and other costs?  what is the BS of the ucc (and what are the various subcultures and BS within it?)

Well I  have fished for bass and other species of fish and I can tell you truly I have never witnessed a fish jump in the boat. Maybe someone was fishing those Asian carp. As for being fishers of men has anyone considered that you might be using the wrong bait? Those 72 virgins are starting to look pretty good.

John identified the real challenge to the UCC -- local congregations fail to market themselves well out of a perverted sense of propriety which, to me, is a disguise for laziness, self-centeredness and/or lack of sense of value in their church for others.

 

I enjoyed the frst video:  A. B. M.  The commens underneath included a reminder that the marketing needs to be well done.  It is too easy to market to oneself -- it is harder to learn enough about others to understand how to market t tthem.

Douglas Hall, in "The End Of Christendom And The Future Of Christianity", wrote:

 

"Concretely speaking, Christians must learn how to distinguish the Christian message from the operative assumptions, values, and pursuits of our host society, and more particularly those segments of our society with which, as so-called mainstream churches, we have been identified."

 

"Insofar as we are committed to a genuine renewal in the churches that we represent, there are no shortcuts: we must begin with basics. We have two or three generations of people in and around the churches now who are, most them, not only unfamiliar with the fundamental teachings of the Christian traditions but ignorant even of the scriptures."

                                       (Trinity Press International, 1997)

 

Following the logic of Hall's assertion, may we take it that our "nets come up empty" because we are on the wrong side of things. What seemed to have been efficient and effective in a day now past, will not serve us in our day. This compels us, if we are in earnest, to reconsider and reprioritize; which I understand we are now working at.

 

For me, it follows that we must clearly identify those elements of our experience which have served to distract us from that which is necessary, if we are to bring forward results commensurate with our hopes. For example, is the western liberal democratic ethos congruent or consistent with the ethos given in the prophets and the gospel of Jesus Christ?

 

Are we each and all free to interpret and express the gospel just as we see fit? Is there no common thread binding us each and all to a purpose transcending the values of the marketplace? If this is so, what are we to make of what we are given in the Acts of the apostles?

 

I find myself in a predicament. Am I too remain silent so as to spare my companions the opportunity for thinking critically of the many ways in which we have turned aside from that way which leads to life in abundance, where our "nets will be taken in full to overflowing"?

 

Or, am I too speak plainly that which has been entrusted to me by the source and substance of my being in the world?

 

Discerning my way forward, I think of Ezekiel called to stand in his watchtower.

 

George

 

I am reminded that our youth leader was chastised and forced to quit running the open program she had developed for home school parents as a drop-in, in order to focus on the youth in the church.

 

Head bang on the table.....

 

hmmm, that was the same folks who didn't like the food bank knitting group hanging out at a table at the saturday morning cafe and basically made them leave.  (sigh, the knitting group was a wonderful woman who worked with folks who were developmentally challenged and their knitting went to sales at the food bank -- seriously).  I even offered to pay for their coffee.... or set up an extra table for them.

 

sigh....double head bang on the table.

 

note: haven't been to church for about a year, other than for occasional visit.

 

the head banging was getting to painful

It's called narcissism if you describe an individual. Its also something that the "me" generation or baby boomers excel at.

 

However not all baby boomers and many in generation x are not just interested in their own needs, many  understand that they are a part of something greater then themselves. But all generations have their fair share of them.   The narcissist believe they have the answers, they are more likely to be ignorant, foolish and believe that they know what to do. THus they are more likely to tsake on leadership roles, especially religious ones. 

 

Can the church address this. People who have doubts, and see complexity are less likely to take leadership roles, and when they do, they lead in a soft way.

 

I do ask why did we hand the keys to the local church to the narcissist.  It is a combination of structure, psychology, sociology and psychology.  How do we infuse gospel knowledge in our choses of leaders. Well for one we hold them accountable, yet the document seems to eliminate (presbytery) the small amount we have for congregations and it;s lay leaders, while lessen the little accountability that general council has.   

 

It also does little to help communities like mine (downtown Ottawa) have any access to our churches which are held by outsiders, who exclude locals, Because almost no one calls them to account and tells them it is consider wrong to do what they do. ANd when locals do point that out the response of these church is to call locals sin filled and unworthy (or to say that  that there are no UCC Christians in the neighbourhood) or to say that the highest values of our church is they can do what they want and if you changellge them you are challenging our highest values. 

 

Burger King had thefamous ad that became a famous sologan in a presidential election "WHere's the beef"  While I say to "fishing" WHere's  the accountablilty"

 

I could also add in another message "Where's The theology" 

 

Deep fishing like for the word "nephesh" in Hebrew ... a linguistic tradition damned by King Jaimes ...

Not a fish at all bu just a dissonance in the pond creating imagination that is indeterminate or otherwise out there as intellect is in an emotional stste of mind ...

Something that just isn't to those that saved their mind, put it on the shelf or otherwise burried it as a God given talent ... and thus the mediation on unconceived of kohl'd ... like energy chilled in a Black Hole ... an inconceivable point like bo-suns ... alternate cases and ankh St ... and there it hung ... like accroutemont from Avalon ... which increased in averice of the conception of being had ... in a state of control, without fully understanding the morells ofthe controllee, or the controller who happened to be a large accountant ... called Pede or petr in his doling out of Q'loose ...

Such gives angels and demons a rest from a balanced state of thinkig with care all the time ...

As such ass NDE's it is funnyto the Heiseinburg Groups that are out of here watching ... as obviously (derived from obtuse) you can't see to change anything from within ... the power is just too corrupt and full of chits ...

http://centerchurch.com/

Who thinks about catching fish when the boat is underwater and you're drowning?

Head Bangs ... is this like cosmological bumps ... or Jesus upsetting the table in a head fêtè ... feast of yom kippur?

 

Such things always happen in de Shadow ... and thus we don't know much ... as the occult is out of bounds of eiM in Kirk ... with this Poch behind eiM simulationg Sheol donn in another time, place and light of de situ Asian ... dreaded hoard from the east who developed word symbols for those that hate Semite ation ... or mental simulation ... sometime stimulating ... often not in those that choose not to know ...

 

Thus the anon-sense of devoid states or autonomous functions of things that aren't ... like po'Mice oles ... in de night Skye ... a place for rattan about in the night ... quietly ... in due gorse ... a bo chi state ... as El Mos Pyre ...

 

He may come out red faced ... especially if something caught there as passion fruit ... human fallacy or just fallout of the previously heaven's date ... not a figure Eire in sight as thei went on indead arcane state ... without Light!

 

Theis tiff that humans are in error about is overwhelming ... like that  imagination at the end of the Gospel of Johann ... the truth is indes welling ... lattent effects of no-time, or 9-months? Just to prove the effect of denial of sense ...

 

It goes round as cranked non-sense ...

DOS-Y's teim? Where in lyes de Nus! Few people have seem de Nus as they deny IT ... as transparant actions ...

 

Watch Politicians, CEOs and bishop pricks and define where they disappear to ... with their cunning ... is this wee-silly? Perhaps just atas manian dervish ...

Did Jesus cros the Gae Lilly Anna flower ..

 

Perhaps 2-lotus to see below the heights of avari-shin of religious desires to be beta anne the lesser evils who sit there in loch up ... in a state of thunk ... pas tae thinking state ...

 

Just E mote Kahn ... alien bellboy with wadis all round eM de aD ringer? Sounds to me like a monk buddy or buddha-St mon-khe! The singularity Key in G when the cussed thing was un-loched ... and Ur sectant abilities were oude ...

Oh...............(((((Pinga))))).............such painful realities exist in congregations.  Lots of lip service paid to 'welcoming', 'caring' and 'hope filled' and  lots of denial and manipulation in the effort to not make any changes.

 

My take is that mainline Christianity would be thriving if they didn't make it too uncomfortable and unpleasant for people to keep attending and trying.  It is a failing that makes a mark throughout society.  I doubt there are many congregations who want to hear from you (and they obviously didn't want to hear from me).

 

I can look around this small town and see lots of people who have walked away from church and do wonderful sevice elsewhere - charity fundraising - volunteering etc.  Much of this could have originated from a congregation - but it wasn't seen as useful to the 'private club' mentality there.

Do we have a failure church as the fallacy of under dogma?

 

Thus the subtle's ide of things common folk weren't to know about success theology ... and how they were being screwed by hierso gamma ... the dark shaft ...

 

This is sometime purple, UV, or sometimes even portrayed as a one-ID, 1-horned, flying peep-ole heater in the Rueben ... the ruse contained in biblical myth ... about gods and deposed thinking demons ... supposedly demotic ... route word of demo-crazi going down the tubes due to desires of the rich and powerful ... sometime rendered as Roman Judi'n ... simply apall'n ... or a Pauline Lyre ... requiring a simple Lear to look thro' that dark pool ...  

Is the cathartic church in a wash as it was put down by universalism on the confinement of conceptualism on a broad scale like psyche is subtly perverted by fears and anger without the mediated passions ... calm-passion?

 

Reality requires real men go to Mars ... or war (in martyr-dumb) whatever will consume small resources the best ... and thus god destroys the world ... but high believers don't accept such things in a mortal state ...

 

Thus the unending travails of "c" or as the Cryrillic states ... Zea! Where the deus put de dikes ... and de Zeas can be dammed ... or kahn'd out there as a perversion of inn ... and thus all things are inversional and the ass must be looked upon with a foreward view ... though chi may still go if given the freedom to do so ... which isn't likely by those possessing the fallicy of the dis possessed ... that is considerable in itscomplexity as it cuts the simple into  two pools of mental sic -Ness ...

 

Whch can be avoided if you don't believe in either thinking or caring minds and only medi-ochre mediums ... why Semites love Desiderata the Eired form of abba'd whetting ... of well laid parts ... sects as outstanding voids of intelligence?

 

Isn't it wonderful that stoics don't understand satyr? Then there are those that are not true to the form ... sort of long Eired wouffes ... taels at the end of the weaving and warping of God's wisdom? that's Anne otha' dimension sometime known as an outside aura ... invertable ha-Lo?

Hi Jim Kenney,

 

 

That is a symptom.  The problem goes to the root of our Christian faith which is essentially bearing witness.

 

Most Christians are afraid to.  They don't know what to say or they don't know how to act.

 

They sense that there should be some consistency between word and action they simply are not prepared to take what was taught at Sunday School into the public square.

 

So they form a passive faith.

 

Of course most of the damage done to the evangelical cause has been by folk who are no less equipped to take what they learned at Sunday School into the public square.

 

They form an offensive faith.

 

The passive faith leave the doors open, so long as somebody is around to watch the place otherwise anybody just wandering in would rob them blind.

 

The offensive faith are so intent on telling everyone how they are going to hell they completely and utterly fail to convey any news that can qualify as good.

 

One group is waiting to welcome folk who are not coming while the other group is out making sure that nobody will want to come.

 

Talk about lose-lose.

 

The good news is that there are more possibilities open to Christians than being passive or offensive.  They are more balanced, which is harder work and why Christians in these categories are so heavily outnumbered by Christians in these two polarities.

 

Prevailing cultures in society and congregations make balance extremely difficult.  It isn't impossible though it certainly feels like beating your head against a wall.

 

Giving up and walking away just leaves the evangelical field to the passive and the offensive.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

Great post revjohn, the last two paragraphs before your signature resonate as well.

 

Pondering my response, I find that I type, then backspace and remove.  How to move from the personal story to the overall concept and still carry the essence of the challenge.  I am a story person.  

 

What if walking away is walking to something else?  Walking to new ways of community?  

An example is choosing to build wondercafe2 rather than stay mired in the closing of wondercafe.

Another might be choosing to participate in projects or missions associated with the church but not mired in the challenges of congregational life.

 

How do we find places for people to land, to offer the hope of positive of "what can be" or "how we can live differently" to a folk that have way too many battered foreheads.

Hi Pinga...

 

You have your finger on a key concern which well expresses what we might expect when turning to fish on the other side. Our primary concern has been with our own well being, our own benefit. So much so that initiative expressed as concern for the vulnerable other is considered threatening to our neat and ordered lives.

 

Many of us pound our heads against the obdurate walls of resistance. Listening on a quiet evening, does it not sound like the beating of a living drum across the land, announcing that the time for radical change is now available to our decision and determination?

 

Ever hopeful, knowing that each time status quo acts as in your example the crucifixion is expressed and resurrection is sure to follow. Bit by bit the river grows, till all at once it overflows.

 

George

Excellent post, John. I agree with all of it, but especially this part, which needs to be repeated:

 

The only part I would add, is that both the passive and aggressive, plus those who are trying to walk a balanced approach, are fighting steeper uphill battles because the faith is not believable. That's not just an obstacle to aggressive evangelicals with their threats of hell - the problem of implausibility affects all who would promote Christianity, or most other faiths for that matter.

 

If it was just a case of taking a gentler approach to a plausible thing to believe, with demonstrable reasons to believe, I think you'd have much more success. Without the social pressure to believe, or at least attend...that is a obstacle that is arguably just as daunting as the negative stereotypes of Christians and Christianity created by the aggressive evangelicals.

 

 

 

Who "equips" people to evangelize in a good way? How would you do it? I mostly hear we should just go out and do it.

Nice to follow the flow..

This is key and begs the question, how has such a state of "impotence" come into play?

 

I think Arminius offers us at least a hint:

The Basis of Union spelled out our reasons and our methods in great detail. Our seminaries prepared persons to promulgate and promote what was spelled out.

 

By increments, congregations were rendered passive in terms of developing personal critical engagement of the text and tradition which informed the Basis of Union. Their primary task was to work and tithe to preserve the institution intact.

 

All of this left personal spiritual discipline in abeyance, bringing us to the place where Christian persons in our Protestant stream are effectively voiceless in the public square.

 

I want to be clear that this is not me advocating for the abdication of responsibility before the challenge of our day, by retreat into private spiritual insight and practice.

 

I have in mind spiritual practice informed by the mandate expressed by Isaiah and adopted by Jesus; spiritual presence manifest as service to the lost, the lonely, the broken and the abused who live in the shadowed lanes of the towns and cities where our church building stand.

 

What might follow our determination to act in ways indicative of our commitment to follow in the way of Jesus? Surely we would become a city built on a hill that cannot be hid.

 

Would all about us not notice our shift in commitment, from self-serving to other serving and ask our reasons? Would we not be able to answer simply that we are only doing what any servant would do?

 

It saddens me to think that the great opportunity now present to our substantial resources will most likely be missed through the failure of critical insight and disciplined resolve.

 

I rejoice to notice that some have taken the decisive step and now set an example for all to see and emulate.

 

George

 

 

 

 

Hi waterfall...

This is a good question.

 

Barbara and I baked fifteen packages of simple cookies. We put them in a basket and brought them to church on Sunday morning. We invited persons to take a package with them when they left. Not to eat, but to give to someone who they knew in the workplace, the university or the neighbourhood. They were encouraged to say whatever they liked if recipients wondered why the cookies were being given.

 

This is a simple exercise to express the hope that what we receive in church we are able to share outside the church. It introduces a first step leading towards sharing the good news we discover in our gathering as a community of faith in a world of doubt and despair. It is concrete and requires only willingness.

 

Each of us has the liberty of daily decision. I encourage persons to work on the cultivation of "bright eyes", "smiling faces", "listening ears", "helping hands". These are the outward signs of an inward disposition for care and concern. That inward disposition is nurtured by study, prayer and companionship in common endeavour.

 

Theologians have complicated the message of good news revealed in the life of Jesus. Layer upon layer of controversy have obscured the reality of a common life lived as a helper to those in need of help.

 

On Friday the story of Jesus will be brought into view. We will notice that the simplicity of love for the unloved is refused and rejected by Religious authorities, who enter into collusion with Political powers to suppress the influence of the common person who makes an effective difference on a personal encounter by personal encounter basis.

 

Each helping deed and encouraging word strengthening a discouraged population in a context of abusive and exploitive power is gospel in spirit and in truth.

 

The heart of evangelism is loving kindness expressed as compassionate presence. This is possible even for a child and grows in competence by daily practice.

 

George

 

Hi Pinga,

 

 

Then it is not technically a walking away from is it?  It is a choice to continue though in a different way.

 

This path is a road less travelled.  Those who choose to turn away rarely look for another way.  They have simply given up and find more excuses not to bother trying than they do possible ways to serve.

 

 

Which is not a walking away from WonderCafe.ca.  It is more faithful to WonderCafe.ca than the closing is.  Wondercafe2 is not an option for those who are sick and tired of WonderCafe.ca it is an option for those who do not want to lose what they value most about WonderCafe.ca

 

 

Which is not a walking away from either.  It is choosing to walk another way.  Though moving from congregational life to volunteer is a sacrifice that will make the final sacrifice of walking away that much easier to stomach.

 

 

Change the culture of the congregation.  Yes it is hard but seriously Church was never meant to be limited to an hour on Sunday morning.  That is an institutional norm and it isn't a particularly healthy one when you sit down and look at it particularly because the culture surrounding the Church is no longer structured to protect that one hour on Sunday morning.

 

Time changed and the Church was too threatened to see what opportunities the changes opened up to them.  The Church adopted a fortress mentality and the Church has suffered tremendously because of it.

 

Inside the fortress rank is priviledge.  Sadly it is not a priviledge which gets shared.  In any other fortress under attack casualties necessitate promotion.

 

The Church is not under attack so our tired old officers just get older and more tired.

 

Worse yet, our officers are rarely challenged with anything life-threatening so they couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.  They have no ingenuity or creativity because they spend all of their time fleeing from the world on their doorstep.  Unless they spend all their time vilifying it, then they look like the stereotypica crank on the porch hollering at everyone to stay off their lawn.

 

Churches should be places where permission is given and failure is excused.  And yet, they are so not such places.

 

They can be, with effort.

 

It is easier not to bother.

 

So we fail to attract those who aren't part and we force those who are a part apart.

 

Church is organic.  We should let stuff happen.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi all...

 

This is the level of conversation which I hope will characterize our "moving forward" into the opportunity now opening to our imaginations and endeavours.

 

It takes a bit of determination to work around the tangenital offerings and that serves well to strengthen patience and persistence.

May it be so in the Cafe!

 

George

 

 

Hi chansen,

 

 

I'd agree with you.  Except for the part that it is not believeable if only because of the fact I believe it.  And I am not alone.  There are others who believe as well.  How any of us prove ourselves thoughtful enough to be listened to is probably a discussion best had elsewhere.

 

That said, there are some who are more or less credible than others.

 

Of course I've outgrown Sunday school which regretably reduced Christianity to moralism with an order of literalism on the side.  What is truly sad is that most others within the Christian faith will not be exposed to anything other than moralism with a pinch of literalism.

 

Once upon a time, way back in simpler days, it was a three year period of instruction from a mentor before you would be permitted to join the Church.  The Church in this era has bent over backwards thinking that making membership an actual effort would harm the Church.

 

Looking back, by removing the effort and making it effortless we have done more damage.  We have not taught anyone to question nor have we taught anyone to wrestle with answers or discover new questions to wrestle with.

 

In the Church time stopped and many are reluctant to keep up with the time that streams around us.

 

And here is another flaw.  We have reduced Christianity to what must be believed and ignored the greater truth that what is believed must be lived.

 

Insisting that others believe such and such isn't going to work.  Showing others what I believe might not always work, it at least stands a better chance of succeeding.  And when it does and people ask me why I believe what I do then I have premission to share what I believe.

 

Few make that investment.  We see that here at WonderCafe.ca every now and then.  Somebody shows up to tell us how wrong we all are because they love us so much.  They love us so much they never listen to what questions we ask.  They love us so much they never actually have a conversation with us, they simply make pronouncements.  They love us so much they refuse to use our usernames.  They love us so much they do nothing but ridicule us.

 

I bet that if they laid all of that loving activity against 1 Corinthians 13 they would fail to notice that it doesn't match up in the slightest.

 

And because they don't let their stated beliefs guide their actions we refuse to listen to them.

 

Of course, if we are lazy we don't bother pointing out to them how their actions reflect other beliefs than the ones they state.  We simply attack the stated belief as if they are telling us the truth about what they believe.

 

 

Being kinder and gentler have to mean something though and this is why the passives fail.  They are kinder and gentler so long as others give them what they want.  Which is a comfortable place which doesn't change or challenge.

 

That might be a Church.

 

It isn't Christianity.

 

And stereotypes pose two problems.

 

The problem for those who resemble them is that they are rarely given the opportunity to prove how they are not stereotypes.

 

The problem for those who hold them is that they rarely invest any time or energy in seeing whether or not the stereotype is true or universally applicable.

 

On one side it is the individual handcuffed by an inability to adapt to the world around it.

 

On the other side it is people too happy and content with broad brush strokes who live happily lazy lives that never change or acknowledge challenge.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi waterfall,

 

 

The Holy Spirit equips.  Though all are called to engage in the act of evangelism.

 

Some are gifted for this mission.  Others are not gifted for it.  The lack of gift simply means there is less responsibility to succeed there is no less call to engage.

 

And with the assistance of the Holy Spirit we would be teaching one another and demonstrating to one another what the good news looks like when it is shared.

 

 

Get to know the people you are placing in the evangelical cross-hairs.  Evangelism isn't a quota system, you don't get spiritual merit points for calls made or deals closed.  It is sharing the good news.

 

Sharing isn't forcing something down somebodies throat.

 

Sharing isn't threats of damnation.

 

Sharing isn't fingers of accusation.

 

Not that some don't try.

 

 

Well, there is some truth to that.  There is a story of a woman criticizing Billy Graham and his evangelizing.  He asked her how she evangelizes and she replied that she didn't.  Billy remarks that he likes his way of doing evangelism better than her way of not doing it.

 

So on one level doing something evangelical is better than doing nothing evangelical.

 

And if it was only the good news being shared I be okay with something being better than nothing.  Sadly it isn't just the good news that evangelicals share.  It is their news.

 

If you have good news to share and the folk you are with know that you genuinely care about them and are invested in them.  They will listen.

 

Will they be convinced?  Perhaps not.

 

Whose job is it to convince them?

 

Same one who equips.  The Holy Spirit.

 

When we try to do that work we end up blowing it badly.

 

We lead the horse to water (so to speak).  We don't force its head under until it drinks or grows gills.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi GeoFee,

 

 

Impotent is an interesting term. 

 

It points to an inability within Christians to make other Christians.  It is a simple mechanical failure?  Do we all shoot blanks?

 

What if the real problem is atrophy.

 

Muscles not used are eventually deemed surplus and the body reduces them in its own way.  Some have suggested the body actually eats/consumes its own muscles.  A macabre thought is it not?

 

In simplest terms how do you pick up a ball that is too heavy?  Find somebody else who can lift it or try lifting it every day until you succeed.  Every failure to lift hurts and that pain is what makes us stronger.

 

Body builders know this.  Athletes know this.  Carpenters know this.

 

What if you don't like pain and wish to avoid it?  Are there no steroids that produce super evangelists?

 

None that I am aware of so, if you don't like pain and wish to avoid it?  You don't engage in evangelism.  And every time you choose not to you make it that much more difficult to choose to evangelize the next time and the less practice you have the more likely you won't be good at it.

 

Success is something you need to work toward.

 

Failure is a breeze to accomplish.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi John...
.
Yes, atrophy seems fitting in a way that impotence does not. The life in us, by Grace, is adequate to the opportunity.
.
As you well indicate, much depends on initiative and patient persistence.
.
And, as one who walked this way before us suggested: " So run that you may obtain."
.
Have much appreciated your clarity well leavened with wit.
.
George
.

I have been cleaning up my computer files from many years ago and came across this. I don't recall how it got on my computer, but thought I'd share it. These aren't my words and I don't know who wrote them originally.

 

"And They Called Themselves Fishermen"

 

A group existed who called themselves fishermen.There were many fish in the waters around.  In truth, the whole area was surrounded by streams and lakes filled with fish.  And the fish were hungry.

 

It came to pass that week after week, month after month, and year after year, those who called themselves fishermen met in meetings; they talked about their call to fish, the abundance of fish, and how they might go about fishing.  They carefully analyzed what fishing meant, urged fishing as an occupation, and declared that fishing is always to be the primary task of fishermen.

 

These same fishermen built large, beautiful buildings for fishing headquarters. Their plea was that everyone should be a fisherman and that every fisherman should fish. In addition to meeting regularly, they organised a board to send fishermen to other places where there were many fish. The board was formed by those who had the great vision and courage to speak about fishing, to define fishing, and to promote the idea of fishing in faraway streams and lakes where fish of different colors swam.

 

Furthermore, the board hired staff and appointed committees and held many meetings to issue statements on fishing, to agree on what new streams should be thought about.  Large, elaborate and expensive training centers were built with the original and primary purpose of teaching fishermen how to fish.

 

Over the years, courses were offered on the needs of fish, the nature of fish, the psychological reactions of fish, the backgrounds of fish, and how to approach and feed fish. Those who taught had doctorates in 'fishiology'.  Further, the fishermen built large printing houses to publish fishing guides.  Presses were kept busy day and night to produce materials solely devoted to fishing methods and equipment.  An expert speakers bureau was also provided to schedule special speakers on the subject of fishing.

 

Notwithstanding all this activity, it was noted that the fishermen themselves did not fish; they pleaded for fishing. The teachers of fishiology did not fish. They explained fishing. The expert speakers did not fish, they preached about fishing.

 

However, after one stirring address on "The Necessity of Fishing", one young man left the meeting and went fishing.  The next day he reported that he had caught two outstanding fish.  He was honored for his excellent catch and scheduled to visit all the big meetings possible to tell how he had done it.  In fact he quit his fishing in order to have time to tell about his experience to other fishermen.  He was also placed on the Fishermen's General Board as a person having considerable experience.

 

Now many of the fishermen made sacrifices and put up with all kinds of difficulties. Few were well paid for their service on the boards and training centers.  Some lived near the water and bore the smell of dead fish.  They received the ridicule of some that made fun of their fishermen's clubs and the fact that they claimed to be fishermen, yet never fished.  They had doubts about those who felt it was of little use to attend and talk about fishing.  After all, were they not following the one who said:  "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men". (Matt 4:19)

 

It came about that one day someone made the outlandish suggestion that those who did not fish were not actually fishermen--no matter how much they claimed to be.  Someone actually asked "Is a person a fisherman if year after year he never catches (or even tries to catch) a fish?  If he is not fishing, can he be following?"

 

Those who called themselves fishermen, and their boards and committees and training centers and speakers, were all very hurt by that question.

 

What is your excuse for not fishing?

 

 

 

 

Thanks kaythecurler....

 

Your find puts the matter into pretty clear focus, challenging me, and hopefully others, to ask some hard questions.

 

George

kaythecurler

That's cute.

Thank you , Kay. Isn't it amazing what lurks in our computers and in the the things we are deleting and shredding?

 

Why should anyone evangelize ?

Why would you evangelize ?

another lens

 

 

is the UCC fragile, robust, or antifragile?

 

 

IW,

Those guys (guise as masques of God in wisdom) are some of my favourtite current writers.

 

The concept of just going out to do (as you're told by the non-fishing, fishermen of course/ad mini strations) without a line a'thought or care is common. Last week I was told to do again without thought. Why did creation provide the substantial person with brae-in? Theis become ghosts and haunt the hart hurded ... coral bastions? --- Lewis' ba Carole as repeated by Van Gothe? Enough to creat hunchbacks as people pull their heads down ... no not praying ... ducking the crap they through as boon a'rang catings ... it all comes back atcha like back fire! Theosis of Black Bodean Reflectors ...

 

Thus I remain a dissonant character in our church (against all odds) as the anon-thinking (auto nomous) faction would like to drive me out into the storm so they could remain calm about whats going on in the larger dimension (that's out-there or myth to the insiders' Tory). I have to be careful of how I state my thoughts though so it doesn't appear to come out as knowledge ... you know how the piously biblical feel about knowledge! Is this rationale?

 

Thus the fabled triad (dyad) has roots and supports Shadow-like people in many shades ... varience or spectres of things denied by the other's ID? Do you ever get the feeling; we're like in a fable wherewith we belive we control an infinite dimension from limited abilities and the integral possessée is beyond us as allegorical to myth?

 

At base line many personae get confused about possession and being possessed ... that is the opposing chaos to the emotional chaos ... the state of anonomous ... or not knowing nut'n! Such is common here ... I bathe in IT ... and yet cannot know ... Law Laid down by Æropagiti-cuss ... the curse of the House of Lords in Anglo-Saxon dimensions that believe they are the foundation of demo-crazi ... which is extracted from le mot called demote shin ... or highland fallacy!

 

John Milton preached against this ... why the House of Lords tried to silence him giving way to tracts and pamphilet 'ere'NG! Things you must read into as history to understand the p'st in Levite mentallity. When you look about at this crazi world one things sticks ... Uriel!

 

It was said: "When in Rome do as the Romans do" act a bit odd? Gives a masque to hide behind gently ... don't be extreme or it could change into fascism ... such is the face of god as JaNus* ... having wings like a scallop sheul ... and thus takes flight in the pool of insanity ... the world of presence if you haven't observed the darkness 'ere ...

• *j'Nus is sometime writ as ij'Hues ... and thus the land of H'oose ... and the place is just dripping with X-perts on what isn't really known ... itstuff that's beyond us ... something to learn ... or other Y's be thunk over ... allows that thilling çinque'n feeling when falling in love or as leep ... leep or side all ...

Gutte rationale for remaining in the basket ... fete of yom kippur! We can be desalt formula ... and Nate Eris is ... like out of that dirty superfluous floe ... from which we get Na Thon-ism ... or the myth of the ill charioteer!

Is that moving thought of just Y's dumb in flight from the emotional's ID?

Hello Lookin Up,

It's part of the great commission of Jesus, that his disciples should spread the message of the gospel to all the nations. Mathew 28:16-20.

An article that I came across today that seeks to define your problem (and that faced by many if not all Christian churches).

 

Why Would a Young Person Today be Religious?

 

Mendalla