Yes I agree - time is an illusion. It was created by our ego to make sure that nothing will stay the same.

I doubt we can get out of the time trap without completely undoing the ego. This is the philosophy in a numbe rof popular spiritual books - especially A COurse In Miracles.

If lifetime were a day,24 hours, how would we approach it?

Crazyheart it could be possible that a "lifetime" is a "day" but these labels do not really capture the essence of "time".  If we were to call a lifetime a day, all that we would be doing is switching the name, perhaps the subdivisions would be the same as well just with different names.  This numerical system can be beneficial for communication and planning purposes, but society seems to have led people to believe that "time" has control over them.  Constant war/competitive metaphor is used in describing time, (race against time, beating time, fighting time) creating a situation in which people are always feeling "behind the clock".  As JamesK said, the idea of time is largely constructed by the ego, and this idea of a battle against time strengthens the ego even further.

JamesK I agree with what you have said.  However, (and you may have been implying this with your response) the collective ego can only be undone through personal self-actualization, and the diminishment of our own ego.  When we let go of our own ego, we let go of the illusion of time.  We are free, we have always been free; the only thing that tells us we aren't is our own ego. 

So free yourself (everyone) ;) :)

Josh

I think time (as we tend to think of it) is an illusion.  There is only the present moment.

I think the understanding that time is an illusion would really help reconcile some people's beliefs or non-beliefs in God.

I.e. creating the heavens and the earth in several days ;)

Metaphor, or philosophical truth?

As-salaamu alaikum

-Omni

The concept of time is a human creation. Actually, we live in a timeless universe. But we have divided the sequence of the unfolding of the universe into segments called "time," which is fine if we use it to orientate ourselves, but not so good for us if we believe it to be absolutely true.

And people say I don't have time.

Time is there, you just haven't decided what is important, and what is not.

Whether IT took 7 days, or 5 billion years to create the universe, what difference does it make, and what can you do about it anyway?

Go with the flow.

IT

Russ

Our bodies are always ticking away like "sands in the hourglass" to our eventual physical demise.

I for one would not create this "illusion"

Time found me from the moment I was born and will not relent until I physically die.

I have to say, all these interesting thoughts on time deserve a look indeed.

I hope what I'm about to say will not come accross as a dictation in any way, but just a means to share what my take on time is.

I don't believe time is an illusion, or brilliant minds would not try to explain this thing called time.

For the most part time has been explained through science & it seems to hold some level of consistancy & validity.

Time in my opinion, is a creation of God to accomidate a goal in which we as his creation have a consept of the value of it.

It isn't a creation by humans, but is definately a huge factor in the human condition.

Mainly for our benefit as we seem to live under the confines of time here, & it  would seem that time is only of value in our condition of life here.

Time hold great value in our world I would think, so for it to be an illusion, kind of tells me that some may find it not as valuable as it is.

I would also stress the point that if time was of no value, or if time was an illusion, why does it seem that the "world" in genral & the whole movement towards occupying as much time as one has for things that have little or no value at all?

I don't know, I just believe this is something to ponder while on this discussion.

Bolt

A man is talking to God.  He asks, "God, how long is a million years?"  God smiles benignly and says, "To me, it's about a minute."

The man thinks about this, then asks another question.  "God, how much is a million dollars?"  God smiles benignly again and says, "To me it's a penny."

Sensing an opportunity, the man asks, "God, may I have a penny?"

There is a pause.  Then God says,  "Just a minute..."

Har Har

IT

Russ

That is funny! great humer there.  This place can use more of that.

Bolt

Bolt, I see how you may have interpreted "time is an illusion" to mean "time has no value", but I do not believe that is what was truly being said.  "Time" however merely seems to be a concept which has been created by the human mind (ofcourse the human mind and therefore the concept of time are all of 'God')

But by "time is an illusion", we point to the fact that all we ever experience is this very moment.   The past and the future have only been thought of from the present moment.  The moment is so near that it cannot be pinned down by a pointing finger, before it arrives it is gone - yet it is never "gone" it is always present (as are we).  If all things are of God's creation, must not all things have value?  It is this vision of God being somewhere in the future as a distant goal that seperates us from God, because God is ever present.  This moment IS God. 

(not to sound like a dictation either, but it is easier to convey the message speaking in such a way ;) )

:D

Josh

Hey, for you to look at time the way you do is a valid one.I'm not belittleing your outlook & perception.

It is a good thing to explore what the mind has to offer as far as questioning the relationship between all things & God.

 I'll admit that I am under an "assumption" when I see someone look at time as being illusion if they refer to it as having a function other that in which it's creation dictates.

The word Illusion just kind of rubs me that way, I guess.  I'm conditioned to see an illusion as something that is a example of seeing something that isn't really there. Or making something that is there, to somehow appear that it isn't.

Is there value in that? I guess that is an indevidual opinion. Maybe in some instances there is value to that. I guess it depends on the motivation of one who chooses to support the illusion,  & what the illusion is.

What the point in all I'm saying is, at least with my experience, God has went through great lengths to establish truth in this world, so for Him to create time with a function to be an illusion, instead of it being what it's genral consensus is, kind of defeats the purpose of the function of truth.

Pehaps if you can establish a motivation as to why God would create time to be an illusion instead of what it's genral consensus is. I could have a better or more accurate understanding as to why you see it that way.

Bolt

Hi waterfall:

It all depends who the "I" is.

If we identify ourselves the eternal energy which we undoubtely are, then we are forever!

I am eternal energy.

Eternally yours,

Arminius

I feel like my wits are not acute enough to understand "Time" at the moment. The only thing that comes to mind (which I read recently) is that the essential nature of time is change. Without change, there is no time, and vice versa. So, by this definition, I don't think we can say we live in a "timeless" universe.

I can't speculate on the relationship between God and Time. I suspect it is beyond my human comprehension.

You are defiately not alone!

It took two great minds together to form an understanding of gravity.

Gravity is something we come accrosss every day & is plain to see it's effects in every turn of our lives. but to have understanding of the theory of it. & for this theory to be proven & established, it took two great minds to accomplish this.

One mind's function was to create a formula to offer the explanation to the theory, the other mind was the one of great understanding of measuring this formula in order to prove this formula to be accurate.

I am of coarse talking about Einstien, & Eddington.

Two great & beautiful minds seperated by great division of culture as the two countries of origin were at war, & the scientific community suffered great division as a result.

But great minds prevailed, & the outcome was one in which turned the scientific world into what it is today. This new understanding of gravity opened doors to so much more, so much more.

Bolt

Well Bolt, I do not think you are trying to belittle me :) I appreciate the fact that we can discuss a topic and listen to eachothers individual opinions. 

I often use quotation marks when using labels such as "God" etc. because I feel they do not fully capture what is implied, and it seems like a lot of misconception has occurred from speaking of such truth in such an objective way.  I mean I am not trying to belittle anyones beliefs :)

Why God would create time as illusion is a valid question to ask.  In another topic, posted by Rishi, we discussed how "the devil" is essentially metaphorical for the ego.  It is what creates seperation from God, it leads us away from our conscience.  Earlier on in this topic somebody stated that the concept of time was created by the ego.  Perhaps (in biblical terms) time is incorporated more so with the Devil.  God is the eternal, and God is in the present, because the present is all that there is (the present is essentially God in a way).  Therefore, to be 'tricked' by the mind or ego into believing that there is other than the present moment, is to be illuded. 

Several people seem to think that it is being suggested that time is non-existent.  Time does exist, we can acknowledge that "time" is passing by watching the rotting of an apple.  However, what I am saying is that time is always unfolding in the present moment.  As the apple was rotting, each moment of its deterioration was in the present.

Also, if we state that "God" is All, that must imply that God has created the devil.  As without darkness there cannot be light, without suffering (caused by the devil/ego) there cannot be true joy.  That could be a possible reason that God would have created Time.  I can see how the word "illusion" may rub you the wrong way, i recall you saying that "I am God" burns you up as well :P, but what am really trying to say is that, time DOES exist, though it is always in the present, it always IS the present - past and future are illusions. 

Imagine when you were just a child, those memories may seem distant, though when they were happening, they were happening in the present.  Looking at that example, you can see how all things occur in the present :)

Josh

Yeah Josh, you are a thinker & that is very cool.

I don't believe for a second that you wish to discout God in anything.

You have an enquiering mind & that is essential for the scientific thought, & spiritual revelation

For someone of your age this is quite impressive.

I'm done with the whole declaration of truth as I've done in the past, as I now believe that truth carries it's own merrit & will be revieled within all eventually.

It does take careful though & also spiritual discerment, putting the two together can yeild some great conversation, would you agree?

All I can do here is to converce & perhaps find a common ground as to where this search for truth will indeed take us & how far are we willing to go.

I believe this is a much better witness as it has been in the past in my case anyways.

I can kind of grasp where you are going with your outlook of time but I would just like to say that when referance to time in the bible precedes that which is referenced to God's creation of man.

Now you may look at it from a science standpoint & that is OK, that is what science is about.

You may also see it from a spiritual standpoint, as you seem to be going in that direction as well.

I'm just saying that with regard to how it's referanced in the bible, It starts with the creation of time before the creation of man.

I'm referring to the Light & dark being measured as one day, & it carrying on to another & another, to where it is referanced as 7 days, & so on & so forth.

I honestly believe time is created for our benifit, & there is a reason for the creation of time & the measurement of it.

Like what I referanced with the example of Einstein, & Eddington, first there was the theory, then there was the measuring, & after all was said & measured, it was proven. & from there were all sorts of things Einstien & other great minds have come up with after that breakthrough.

Not to stray off topic here, but I believe there is science in this book referred to as the bible as well as other things that are described in this wonderful life manual that has been given to us.

 You are pretty smart & I don't say that to entice your ego, but conversly as to ensure to you that I don't talk at you but converce with you.

I don't see time as an illusion, but a very important factor in life in the human condition & life in the realm of science to where all things can eventually be revieled, measured, & proven  beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Bolt

Faeren, good joke! Chuckle chuckle...

Time is like...the coolest subject going. I tend to feel that time is pressed upon me and I have no choice but to accept it, and that my true natural condition is a timeless one, like the Q in Star Trek, but on the other hand, you can't have space without time, so time in intertwined into everything, including us. There's nothing out there that isn't affected by time, or so it seems to us. Yet, time doesn't move in expected ways. It seems that time has shape, and density, weird though that may seem.

If one locked onself in a room with no change, time would not stop, you would still get old, and very, very bored. Meditation however, I think can bring things to a standstill. Arminius has experience with that. I think it all flows in time, but it all happens at once too.

Anyway, it's the most mind bendning thing to think about. And the best thing to do when you get feeling like that is to head out into nature for a sabbatical, take the time to slow down and ponder. Get out of the rat race, bring your tent, and watch the sun come up and go down. Watch the hairs on your arm move in the breeze, watch how the trees sway and how the flowers open and close again. Maybe there you will gain some insight. Blessings to you fellow ponderer!

People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion. - Albert Einstein

IT

Russ

: ) 

You are all great.

Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.

   - Douglas Adams

Or I have Thyme in a bottle.

Oops

IT

Russ

One of the deep mysteries of life is the mystery of time.  It is one of those things we take for granted, but it is almost impossible, even for science, to define. It is easy to talk about space, because it stretches all around us.  But somehow time spans everything in the past, the present and the future. We cannot see it or touch it. We can only experience it. We measure it and define it by observing "events". But in trying to define an "event", we end up talking about time again.

Our concept of time measurement is related to movement - the moving hands of a clock or a pendulum, the moving shadow of a sundial, the motion of sand through an hourglass, the burning down of a candle.  Even the international standard for time measurement is based on movement - the rate of vibration of an atomic crystal. 

Does time always flow at the same speed?  That seems like an absurd question!  The obvious answer is that it moves "24 hours every day". However there is a real sense in which time flow is subjective.  As many people have discovered, it goes faster as we get older! 

Physics and astronomy also can shed light on the question of the rate of flow of time.  Einstein's theories of Relativity show that the rate of time flow depends upon the condition of the observer. Events simultaneous to one observer, may not be to another. The relative speeds of the observers, or the relative strength of their local gravitational fields can produce large variations in the rate of time flow. In fact, if we could travel at the speed of light or plunge into a black hole, time would literally stand still for us, relative to an outside observer..

So when we look at the universe as a whole, time does not move at a constant rate, in fact the universe is a composite of an almost infinite number of clocks all running at different speeds.

The big question that always comes up when you are talking about time is "What about time travel?"  There is no problem travelling into the future!  In fact you are doing it right now at the rate of 24 hours per day!  Every moment of your existence is another step into the unknown future. 

However, what about "real" time travel?  Science tells us that it is not only possible but that a method is available!.  Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity tells us that if you travel at close to the speed of light, the rest of the world will seem to speed up and its time will race past at ten or one hundred or even one thousand times faster than its "normal" rate. This means you can put your own personal time on hold while the world speeds 1000 years into the future. The limitation is not in the theory, but only in the available technology - we just can't go that fast yet!

What do we mean when we talk about "now"?  Before we even finish saying the word it is gone and a new "now" takes its place. What we call "now" is like a dance where the non-existent future dances fleetingly with the never-to-be-recovered past. The present is where we have our being and live out our existence. We can't see into the future, but strangely enough, you cannot even see the present!  Even when you look into a mirror, you do not see yourself as you are "now", but what you see is an image of yourself which is a fraction of a second in the past and no longer exists. This is partly due to the time it takes light to travel from you to the mirror and back, and partly due to the time it takes your brain to process the image.

However, it is possible to see far into the past!  And I don't just mean in old movies.  Whenever you look up into the night sky you can actually see hundreds or thousands of years into the past.  I could take you out on any summer evening, and if the sky is dark enough,  or if you bring a pair of binoculars, I can show you an object called the Andromeda galaxy where the light reaching your eyes is more than 2,000,000 years old.  It left that distant galaxy before the dawn of civilization!

iwonder

Then the question becomes is there only one reality, or many. As each of us make  a decision, are we creating a new future.  Is the present only one of an infinite number of presents created by an infinite number of different pasts?  A new future for every possible different small change in the present. If so, and if we could we travel back in time, which back would we travel to?

IT

Russ

You don't ask simple questions do you! LOL

Because of the way you framed the question, I am sure you know that these are some of the big questions of Physics and Astronomy.   There is the "Many Worlds" interpretation of Quantum Physics which was proposed to solve quantum correlation problems, and to explain the complementary nature of wave-particle duality and other strange quantum phenomena.  

To express this theory in ultra-simplistic terms, it says that every time there are two possible outcomes of a quantum event, the universe splits into TWO universes where BOTH events occur - one in each universe!   This would require an almost infinite number of universes with trillions of them being created every nanosecond. 

It is almost impossible to really prove or disprove such a theory of parallel universes, but to my way of thinking, Occam's razor rules it out - for me anyway.

A much more popular theory is that there are many alternative universes which are popping into existence  from time to time.   Each one would have its own "Big Bang" event, and its own set of physical "laws".  Some would last for a few seconds, others would expand forever.  Some would contain life and others would not.  Again this is almost impossible to prove, but is much more plausible than the "Many Worlds" theory.
 

Re the time travel thing.  As you know from movies like "Back to the Future" travelling back in time creates some terrible paradoxes (like what happens if you murder your grandparents?).  Also there is the question that if time travel is possible, why haven't we seen any travellers from the future yet?

In theory, if you could find a stable wormhole in space, you could not only travel to a distant part of the universe, but would travel backwards in time also.   But the paradoxes would be enormous, so perhaps that rules it out.

One last comment, and this is probably enough science for now!  My favourite Physicist, Richard Feyman, pointed out that an anti-particle travelling forward in time is mathematically indistinguishable from a normal particle travelling BACKWARD in time.  So, for instance, a positron travelling forward in time is indistinguishable from an electron travelling backward in time!
 

iwonder

So you obviously read the last issue of Astronomy magazine re multiverses?

I am not sure why an infinite nyumber of universes is any more or less plausible than this God guy 

IT

Russ

Actually no, I did not read that magazine, but these ideas have neen around for many years and many books written about them.  I understand that the term "multiverse" was first used in 1895 by psychologist William James.

For my limited mind I find none of it very easy to understand.  Whatever Ultimate Reality is, it is not something that is within the grasp of present human knowledge or probably ever will be.

Well, some of the learned types seem to thing we could see the other universes bouncing off ours.  Apparently musses up the cosmic background radiation.

IT

Russ