How many churches are in your community?

A RC Cathedral with over 1500 families

A United Church with 300 families

A small Anglican, Pentecostal, Presbyterian Church of America and many Catholic Churche in the outlying communities.

Within 50 kilometers there are 4 United Churches and all but one are rural.

CH - I think many communities share a similar problem of having too many churches for the numbers that they draw. In my city (pop'n about 120K), there are 14 United Churches. One closed last year. My congregation is currently negotiating an amalgamation, but it's taking a long time to get answers to simple questions (like what is the status of ordered staff after amalgamation). You'd think head office in Toronto would have this information, since amalgamations are becoming more numerous, but it's taking a lot time to get the word out to the hinterland. 

I must say that I am amazed by the preference of many congregations to close rather than join. That other churches, even of the same denomination, are somehow the "enemy".  It amounts to a lack of responsibility of one generation in carrying the word on to the next.  Or is it fear? Or just plain lack of creativity? Lack of vision? Is the familiar really that comfortable?  If it is, why aren't those who prize it coming more regularly?  Is it because they just want the church to "be there", but not have any other role to play other than preserving architectural heritage for the community?  Well, churches can no longer afford to be museum curators. If communities want 150 year-old churches preserved, then the community will have to step up to the plate. Meanwhile, the church has a mission with people to pursue.

Within reasonable walking distance:

3 United

3 Anglican

3 Catholic

2 Baptist

1 Salvation Army

1 Wesleyan

1 Lutheran

I might be missing some but I think that's it.

We've had at least one UCC merger in London within recent years (Wesley-Knox, where some of you heard Marcus Borg, merged with Centennial). I think that if a church can no longer sustain its space, or is spending so much money, time and energy on doing so that it cannot fulfill its mission as a church, then merging with a neighbouring church is probably a legitimate route to go. After all, in the words of a children's hymn that I still quote at times: "The church is not a building, the church is not a steeple, the church is not a resting place, the church is a people." If a church is so absorbed in dealing with property and financial issues that it loses this focus, and merging helps put the focus back on the people and on God, then it's a valid solution.

In UU'ism, we rarely have the option. Only in very large cities are there multiple congregations and even then they may not be close enough together to make a merger feasible. If a UU church shrinks to the point of being unsustainable, then it's back to meeting in people's homes or rented spaces, usually with lay leadership (since it's unlikely that a church in these straits could afford professional clergy).

Mendalla

Within a 20 minute drive...

3 separate United Churches (1 congregation with 5-10 average and a high of 20... 1 congregation of 10-20 and another 25-35)

 plus one amalgamated UCC with 30-40, still maintaining two buildings and using each seasonally

plus another  seasonal UCC with 20 or so per week (for a UCC total of 6 buildings)

Others:

One Roman Catholic

One Anglican

Two non-denominational. one very conservative and the other very liberal

One Pentecostal

(each of these denominations maintains about the same number of people, just divided between less buildings)

IMO, the UCC has too many in my area. Yet, having worshipped with them and provided pastoral care for them I understand the pain, turmoil, mourning, angst, fear.... It is akin to a death to them. Yet, they too know they are barely hanging on and cannot for much longer, but will not go until the coffers are empty.

      Question: Is it too many churches or what is being preached and all the ritualistic ceremonies that take place ?Church should be a place of learning- teaching the gospel using God's book to inspire people to read the Bible.Give people suggestions on what books like a good concordance to help them understand scripture .Churches aren't the problem we humans are the problem . 

    How many ministers have a personal relationship with God and by that I mean a born again (spiritual) relationship just look at priests etc abusing children why would any person trust the one preaching when they can't control their own urges. Churches are failing because humans are just being that, humans the is no God involvement of any kind  Example: The church needs money to operate God's word is very clear  Philippians 4:19 And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus.       2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;   

    Where is the church in it's faith that God will look after the churches needs so if the church has no faith in being looked after how can a minister preach faith to it's people.     

In my town there is:

• An anglican/grace united church (which is confusing because of the occational conflict of interest)
• A roman catholic church
• a pentacostal church
• a baptist church
• a jahova's whitness place thingy (it's on the edge of town...they don't bother us lol)
• a "Community Fellowship" centre (don't really know what that is)
• in the Phone Book there is a Baha'i group phone number, so it might be the above centre's purpose.

Thats all I know in terms of buildings.  There is also a pentacostal chapel on the reserve.

I know there used to be a significant Jewish group in town but I haven't really heard from/about them in years.  I know the number of Muslims is slowly on the rise :D

And apparently there are a fair few Baha'is in town.

As-salaamu alaikum, ramadan mubarak

-Omni

In this relatively small city there are six UCC.  The two largest and oldest are in city centre just a couple of blocks from each other - the former Presbyterian and the former Methodist.  One is so conservative that it is difficult to know you are in a United church - the other is quite progressive.  The little church on the outskirts of town is also quite progressive - it started up in the 1960s with high hopes but has never really caught on.  The other three are in what was at one time separate villages that have been algamated into the city.  They each have their own distinct character. 

But,

Within a few miles of the city in any direction are found little rural churches.  They all seem to be struggling - many have part time ministers - others share a minister between two or three churches.  None want to give up.  They drive in to town for shopping, work, sports, recreation, and usually are bussed in for school - but they want their neighbourhood churches. 

I don't know what the solution might be.

Without checking the phone book or other reference I can also think of one Presbyterian church in the downtown area and one just outside the city limits, four or five RC, perhaps six or seven Baptist, an equal or greater number of Pentecostal (some of which call themselves non-denominational), a Wesleyan, six Anglican, a Lutheran. 

Then there are the non-Christian:  The Jewish Temple; the Moslem Mosque: the Hindu temple; the UU; the Jehovah's Witness Kingdom Hall.  There are also Buddhists who meet in a home; and a Bahai group.  In fact I would say that there are almost as many groups related to some religious belief as there are secular groups in this city.

I have no idea about my city (too new, never counted) but my old small city had 11 to start with.  It is down to 6 I think, with 2 amalgamations and a closure. 

What I find the biggest stupidest thing about several churches in close proximity (same denom or not) is that sometimes they become competitive.  Who bakes the best pies?  Who sends more to the breakfast program?  Who will be the last church standing? It is that sort of bickering that turns younger people off and says the most that some of them need to go if only to turn people back to what's important.

I never thought of that before, Birthstone but when I think of it, I have heard "Oh, WE don't do it that way." or Does your church do it THAT way, as if they are doing it right and all the other churches are doing it wrong. So sad.

The old Scarborough Presbytery made a valiant effort to explore the concept of a "regional church", but it didn't fly.  I can think of one closure and three amalgamations that have happened in the last few years. 

In all likelihood a regional church wouldn't be what people think it would be.  Some poeple wouldn't go because it was too big (I would likely be one of them).  Unless the amalgamation was done very carefully the end result would have fewer people than the total of the original congregations. 

ANd it has to be noted that studies have shown that if churches get together to stave off bankruptcy rather than out of a sense of mission end up still going under -- plausibly with a steeper slope downward.

I agree, it's not the size of your church that counts it's what you do with it.

I have no problem with small churches, or large churches, I will measure them on the effect they have in their communities.

There are dozens of churches, Catholic, Angluican, Orthodox, Protestant, in walking distance of my place, a few mosques, and a few Budhists temples, Jewish places of worship.

All that I know is that most of them (if not all)  are regional churches or religious institutions serving the greater metropolitian area of Ottawa.  I know not how to measure there effect on the community as I know of only a few people who live in the local community actually attend any of them.

In my community of about 5,000 there are at least twenty different churches of various deniminations, each maintaining their own building.  Several of the churches are along the same block, or facing each other across the street.  Most of them seem to have small, aging congregations.  The exceptions are those with very rigid, almost literal, theology. 

Some of them allow other groups (like yoga classes) to use their building.  Others have locked doors most of the time.  Some of them give to the food bank run by the Salvation Army - others don't.  None of them offer intersting groups for the 'spiritual but not religios' people - or if they do they don't advertise it.  I have heard of Bible Study groups - but when I one attended for a while I was welcomed by the clergy but not the congregation members.  

None of the churches seem to run events such as grief support, money management course, parenting classes or preparing for retirement.  If any churches read and discuss spiritual or theological books they restrict attendance to  'members only'.

I hope they all do something useful other than raising funds to maintain their buildings but I don't hear about anything like that.

We too are an "overchurched" community.  About 3300 people (and no rural area to draw from since it is all rocks, trees, and lakes) and we have:

• United
• Anglican
• Roman Catholic
• Full Gospel
• Baptist
• Jehovah Witnesses
• Mormon
• Lutheran (LCC)
• a COmmunity Fellowship (which I think originally splintered off the Baptists)

and none of us are flush with money by any means.  Years ago (when the town was 5000-8000) there was also a Presbyterian and a ELCiC Lutheran congregation).

However of that group I am the only cleric who provides a liberal/progressive  theological perspective.  THere have been some musings about us and teh ANglicans joining but only musings from some (very few) people.

whiel I see lots of churches around me, they all are busy active buildings and congregations.  Many house day cares or nursery schools as well as offer space for the miriad of clubs and groups and activities.

In Toronto, the school board now charges alot for rental of space so we are inundated with requests for evening groups and teams.

Our building is open 8am - 10 pm weeknights.

Certainly some need to amalgamate and it can be very successful too.  Eglinton St Georges in Toronto seems to have done a fabulous job or joining and renovating.

It must be very sad for people to be members of only 20 families.  They will remember the times when everyone attended.  

The answer is "it depends". It depends on what happens. if congregation A closes and the members are dispersed, then the Call to the member of the order of Ministry is ended and they are free to seek another call. Lay staff are terminated.

If the congregation amalgamates, the answer cvan be different again. The existing staff can either apply for new staff positions in the new entity (unwise, IMHO) or seek another call. Lay staff can be amalgamated. 

I serve a congregation wwhere that happened 15 years ago. Congrgations A & B came together and created a new entity(Congregation C). none of the Ordered staff stayed past the first six moths, alythough the Staff Associate stated on for a decade (and it worked well).

I know that in Toronto Conference, when we amalgamated and restructured lay staff were given Notice and Ordered Ministry staff were also given Notice (other than the Executive Secretary whose postion continued)  and were free to reapply for new positions.

This isn't rocket science. Your Executive Secretary should be able to give the best guidance.

Further to David's comment.  IT is my belief that in a true amalgamation the ORder of Ministry folk from teh previous congregations should not stay longer than 1 year after amalgamation.  And it needs to be a clean sweep, otherwise there is always a danger that the clergy will be seen as "our" minister by part of the congregation.  It is also my belief that amalgamation processes need to err on the slower rather than the faster.  In this Presbytery we have a couple of places that moved quickly into becoming 2-point charges (mainly due to finances) and then the relationship started to unravel soon afterward -- largely because we as Presbytery hadn't ensured that they had worked out issues around governance and the role of ministry personnel in their new set up.

I was skimming through all this, when it hit me - hard.  What would Jesus think if he returned at this very moment.  I don't mean in apocolyptic terms...but if he came down and stood in the main street of downtown Anywhere Canada.  He stood in the road and saw seven steeples, all using resources and money that could be used far, far more efficiently to reach out to a hurting world if all the Christians came together.

I know, it's a pipe dream. Church A says you have to be baptized as an infant.  Church B says you must be baptized as an adult by full immersion.  Church C says if you don't believe in the resurrected Christ and become born again you're going to Hell.  Church D believes that many spiritual paths lead to God, but the greatest point of revelation is Jesus Christ.  Church E is just wide open and out there...do what you want, think what you want.  Church A started marrying gays and lesbians, leading Church C to withdraw funding from Church A's Bible camp.  Church E invited a Buddhist to come in and talk about her faith, so Church B won't participate in the annual preacher swap everybody enjoys so much. 

Churches A through E are all 1/4 to 1/2  full and spend a lot of dough to keep the carpets clean and the heat on through these cold Canadian winters.

I am currently between churches and considering all this and it's  turning into a big bag of snakes for me.  I really don't know where my next move will be.

A man on a desert island was rescued after many years.  His rescuers found him on the beach in front of three huts. 

"What's that hut?" asked a rescuer.

"Oh, that's my house," replied the rescued man.

"And that other hut?"  the rescuer asked.

"Oh, that's my church,"  the rescued man said proudly.

"And that third hut", the rescuer pressed.  "What's it for?"

The man's smile transformed into an ugly sneer.  "Oh, that place," he snarled.  "That's the church I used to attend."

God bless,

He's probably say, "Are you following my Father?"

And we would say "Yup".

He would say "Good enough!" and go have lunch with the homeless at the kitchen one of the churches runs (and the rest support).

I don't think much of trying to club us all into some kind of amalgamation by suggesting we are wasting resources or guilting us into some kind of change. We have wasted more time and emgerny agonizing over the "rightness" of our ministry. Not my game. Sorry.

Hi Dave:

I grew up as a Lutheran in a Catholic area, but my wife grew up Catholic and we were married in a Catholic church. Later in life I became an atheist and, after a roundabout route that led me through Native spirituality, Sufism, and Zen Buddhism, came back to Christianity as a broadly inclusive Christian.

In our village of 1600, with a surrounding rural area that numbers about the same, there is a Kingdom Hall (JW), a Hope Chapel (Baptist), a Church of Christ (Fundamentalist), a St. James the Less Church (Anglican), a Sacred Heart Church (RC), our small UCC village church and two small rural SDA churches. The Hope Chapel and the Anglican church have closed, the others are one tenth to one quarter full.

Our large Catholic Church alone probably would accommodate all Christians of our area. Our Catholic bishop is very open-minded and might be approachable to using his church as an ecumenical Christian Church, but the local parish priest and congregation are less so.

It looks as if Christianity, like a drug addict, has to hit rock bottom before it comes to ist senses.  

Hi DKS,

How much more food, shelter, comfort and hope could be provided at the local food bank and all around the world,  if all those 1/3rd full churches started doing some real sharing of resources?

Believe me, I'm not an exclusive believer.  Whatever brings you close to God, within or without the Christian dichotomy is jake with me.  I've been baptized in the United Church by sprinkling and in an Association Baptist Churchby full immersion...sprinkled and splashed as it were.  But my question remains a valid one.  Why does my home town have three United Churches all one third full?  And if they joined together, could that union free up resources that could help feed the hungry, care for the sick and give the thirsty a drink of water?  As a dedicated believer and a person committed to Christ's church I know it's an uncomfortable question.  But it's a questions being asked...and it should!

God bless,

P.S.  I want to reiterate I'm not trying to "guilt" anyone into submission.  I have no agenda, but I do see a lot of emptier churches.

It is true that the six United Churches in this city seem to be busy seven days a week.  I imagine it is also true of many of the other denominations.  However, I think that the little churches on the outskits, in the villages, or on the crossroads of rural areas are often only open for a couple of hours on Sunday, and the occasional wedding or funeral. 

Actually of the six UCC in this city I can only see the possibility of one being amalgamated or closed at any time in the near future.  What might be possible though would be for the small churches in surrounding areas to somehow become affiliated with one of the city churches that is most accessible to them.    For instance the struggling X village church is only seven miles from an active city church.  Y village church which is down to part time ministry is ten miles from two large downtown churches, each with two ministers.   Only one city church is presently partnered with a nearby rural church and it seems to be working well.

John 12:1-11. Same thing. Some things never change.

I would be happy to just be able to go to the United Church that is a five minute walk away. I am nostalogic for the idea of the United Church being a community church. A place where I could go and worship and get to know Christians who live in my neighbourhood. It would also be so much easier to get through my week if I ran into people I knew from Church. A month ago I saw and waved to a member of my congregations as I was biking downtown.

His smile of reconigition really lite up my day.

I think if jesus was around today he would be 1) shocked that there was a Christian Church that was seperate from the Jewish community, let alone one that was divided between denominations and inside denominations.

If he was around today althrough he would likely not stick to one place. I would also like to believe he would have a blog on Wondercafe.  And likely spend alot of time on other sites, as well as in churches that was diverse like WC is. I do not think he would feel very comfortable or very welcomed in most churches as he would not fit in, since he was such a different type a guy 2000 years ago.  He would certainly be even more different than even most of us today in Canada. (aramic speaking, coloured skin, ) he was even disabled. (At least the God part, I mean what other God do you know of that made him or her or itself so human that the God would be unable to prevent his own cruicifiction. )