Alarming  stats. So, a couple of questions

• Why bother trying to keep the United Church Alive? or
• Is this not the perfect time to renew our efforts in Emerging Spirit Campaign ( Wonder cafe being a part of this initiative)?

Are these numbers normalized for total population?

ie. the population has grown over the decades shown, but the numbers appears to be raw population numbers. If the data are not normalized then the downward trends are actually much, much steeper.

LL&P (statistically)

Spock

Horse and buggy disappeared.

The 78 record disappeared.

The VHS cassette disappeared.

.All disappeared when they no longer served a function.

If the same happens for the UCC, or any other branch, it too will disappear.

IT

Russ

and so be it - if we can't serve a useful function, why should we continue?

However, that said, I don't think we're useless - but some of our old ways need to be set aside.  Emerging Spirit is a well-timed program for working through this.

Yes, Emerging Spirit may be well-timed, but to have a long-term effect the effort needs to continue into the future. Emerging Spirit is scheduled to end this year and I don't see anything else on the horizon. Shouldn't the leaders of the church be alarmed by numbers like this? It should be alarming to anyone who believes that the United Church has healthy, mature approach to religion and would like to see that continue. I, for one, think the United Church's theology and values are essential in a world torn apart by less-moderate religious expressions. What a loss for Canada and the world!

No, the data are not normalized. In a second slide show I am working on, I have done that, and - as you say - as a percentage of Canadian population, the decline is much steeper.

However, what I don't have the data for is the question, As a percentage of Canadians who are members of Christian churches? Or, as a percentage of Canadians who attend church on any given Sunday?

That is, my suspicion is that the data is not just about us. There is a broader social change taking place. And this data is a reflection of that broader change; and not simply, "The United Church has a problem that no other church - or other volunteer service agency - is experiencing."

The data is still scary for those of us who care about "organized" religion.

David E.

The United Church doesn't need propping up.  If it's time to die, that's it!  Soooooo, have one big 'going out of business sale'.  Pews being sold CHEAP!  Sell all the property. Recycle the hymn books and other paper products.   Send one half of the proceeds to established missions and the other half for one giant, nationwide pizza party (vegetarian, vegan and low-carb pizzas available).  Release one million smily faced balloons and go out with a shout.  Hold you head high, and make a bee line for a conservative Anglican church or, failing that, a Baptist or Presbyterian church. 

It sounds like the grassroots,the individual charges(churches),need to make sure they are reaching out to the community. We need to make sure the church is relevant to the peoplein the area. The United Church of Canada can then catch the wave of expressionfor the love of God and carry forth the work begun by Jesus. He saw the wrongs and the marginalized,the oppressed,and he took charge. He went out to the community to seek what they needed. We need to make the message on Sunday be true and have it mean something to all in the community.God only wants us to spread the news of to go and fix what is wrong and unfair in the world.

Lets go!!!

Yes, David, "organized" religion seems to be on the decline. On the "unorganized" level, however, spirituality seems to be on the increase.

Natural scientists are pretty much regarded as the leading brains, the "prophets" of modern society. Elaine Howard Eckland, a research sociologist at New York State University, conducted a survey among the 1600 or so North American research scientists and found out that about two thirds of them believe in some form of divinity.

Why don't they support organized religion?

Perhaps we neeed to move beyond the supernatural Creator God to a fully natural God, and beyond God the Creator to God the Creating: God as the ceaseless creativity at the heart of the universe.

If we evolve toward a spiritual human culture, then we evolve beyond organized religion into a spiritual civilization. This may be better and greater than organized religion.

I'm with you on the hope for science and spirituality converging.

However, I am less hopeful about the possibility of a "spiritual civilization." Humans are too prone to spiritual pride, self-justification, self-righteousness - and just plain old greed, for "spirituality" to exist without some organized form of story-telling and constant remembering of the common good to restain our individual hubris.

Ideals / aspirations / hopes / dreams need bodies. And specifically they need bodies that remember our faultiness. And bodies need money and structures - i.e., "organ"-ization.

David E.

The only problem with this suggestion is that conservative churches, Baptists, Presbyterians, Anglicans, etc. are all facing the same pressures.

The United Church actually has many thriving, growing, "successful" congregations - many more than "conservatives." It's just that we don't notice our "successes" because there are so many real problems that catch our attention (and need our attention).

But the question of individual congregational success is a diversion from the real issue of how to structurally / systematically / organ-izationally respond to the changes that have / and are / happening in North American sociaety?

David E.

I couldn't agree more. The challenge for an institution like the United Church is to figure out out to get going into a God-called future from what has been a long history of also being God-called ministry. It is not easy to simply abandon buildings and the many, many folks still active in our churches who are looking to those congregations to provide support to them now that they are in their old age. They have given sacrificially to the church, how would you respond to their needs?

But the function they failed to serve was simply a method of action. Their purpose continued on in a more efficient manner.

The same with the church. We need more technology today that aligns with peoples modern themes.

The problem I see with the dying churches is that they are also trying to change the message.

People need the Lord and the Holy Spirit is out there drawing everyone to God. Some will respond and some won't but for those who do we need places for them to connect.

We need to put life and joy back into the worship of our One true God who never changes.

That is the confidence we can have. His message and love don't change with the times or wind!

The churches that are dying are trying to change the message to suit the people when the people are really trying to find the truth, When they get fed watered down Christianity, it doesn't last. Kinda like Chinese food. It's real tasty and pretty but you're hungry again before the day is out.

I have seen people walk out of a great sermon that was totally in the Word saying "Wow that really hit home. I needed to hear that. My soul is full. I'm going to change a few things beginning with me."

Be Blessed,

IB

IB

I guess that is what I was trying to say. The message is still there, but the delivery just isn't working anymore.  And it goes well beyond "Emerging Church" to I really don't know what?

IT

Russ

It's funny that you say that because the one thing I see is that the message isn't there anymore in the dying Liberal churches. It's a variant but so feelgood that it has lost it's flavour.

Almost like washing your greasy hands with hot water but no soap. Hands still don't feel quite clean!!

Be Blessed,

IB

I was not saying abandon the buildings, but respond to the needs of the  community,including those in the congregation. We need to feed the soul,to feel like the church,the person in the pulpit is understanding those in the church need to hear that Jesus went out to help others,and we need to help others as well. By remaining to the social justice part of the united Church we can do Jesus' work,feed our souls,and attract those people who want to make the church active in the world. Also,younger people wanrt to make a difference and by actively performing acts of kindness, making people aware of the injustices in theworld and responding to them we can show how the church understands the chance for change. We should be a social justice ministry and feed our hunger to help,by saying so on Sunday morning to show us what we can do. And to remind us of what Jesus did to further his social justice ministry.

davidewart,

Things end, but there are no endings. There is the tale and there are the tellers of the tale. We are all tellers in the tale.

I think we'll be surprised at how the UCC will be in 100 years. I think the next 100 years will continue to bring amazing things into the world.

Everything can be said to be in 'competition' because everything has effects on everything else. So, Churches don't exist by themselves, they exist in relation to the world outside them. I think the kind of Church that encourages non-responsibility for their own beliefs (which means accepting and knowing how, on a deep level, they 'create' their beliefs) is going the way of the Avro Arrow. Coming up is something more robust and deep.

I look to places like the USA for the future.

Perhaps that is what your G_d wants. Perhaps, has always wanted. Perhaps, each time, each civilization, the message is the same, but your G_d couched it to that particular civilization, that time.

Now it may be something along the lines of:

"Ok. You've understood my message. Now you don't need those crosses, those churches, those Bibles..."

"Wherever you gather, it will be in My name."

"Experience Me unmitigated."

"Agape one another forever."

Standing in the rain,

Inannawhimsey

Looking at the data, one thing stands out for me. The decline in numbers of congregations has been modest compared with the decline in numbers attending services, or even general membership.  As far as I'm concerned, that's part of the problem and even exacerbates it.  As congregations get smaller, they have a choice: place increasingly larger burdens on the few that are left and produce burnout, causing even those faithful few to drop away faster, OR join with another congregation and combine forces and talents to maintain vitality, and the ability to offer something to potential new members.

Perhaps it's a Jeremiah moment in history again. In the times just before the exile to Babylon, Jeremiah foretold that God would withdraw his favour on Israel because the nation had been unfaithful.  But there would come a point when the nation would return and would have another chance.  As a church, we have been unfaithful in transmitting our message to a younger generation. That means we have to do thinkgs differently.  But change, we say, is too hard. The music is too different. The faces we meet might be unfamiliar.  But God doesn't ask us if it's hard or uncomfortable. God asks us to be faithful, and carry out God's message.

Southpaw says churches should close and "make a bee line for a conservative Anglican church ". Sorry, I'm not interested in that option.  Conservative churches hold no value for me.  I'd rather not attend church at all. Unless they were willing to become more liberal (in theology as well as in practice/worship) for the sake of my (and my childrens') generation.

The "problem" with the United Church is NOT that it is "liberal."

The United Church has many "liberal" congregations that are thriving - they are growing and serving.

In fact, on any given Sunday there are way more folks attending "liberal" churches than conservative or evangelical ones.

I think the "problem" has more to do with the wine skin and not the wine.

David E.

Technology isn't the answer. We shouldn't ignore it because things like a properly used video projector can help. But technolgy on its own isn't the answer.

You are suggesting that we have to stick to the good old tried and true message. Here I strongly disagree. Those churches are dying too. Talk (as I have) to those who have left the church and you will find that the underlying message makes no sense to those people. If asked about going to church they will give you a blank look and say "Why would I even consider it? Why would I hand in money every week that simply heats a big building and pays the salary of someone who gives me a 15 minute pep talk."

Emerging Spirit, Borg, etc are on the right track. But they aren't going nearly far enough. Outside the organized church you can find increasing numbers who believe in Jesus and in God but also add - I am spiritual, not religious.

Riderguy says "By remaining [true] to the social justice part of the united Church we can do Jesus' work,feed our souls,and attract those people".

Sorry again, but that's not enough. I can (and have) done a lot of social justice work without the Church being involved. But it's a tough slog, and often there's no light at the end of the tunnel. Without a church providing the spiritual and community support that can help individuals move onwards, there is often a strong tendency to simply give up.  Jesus said "I have come so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete".  The message Jesus preached wasn't limited to social justice. It was also about social (and spiritual) health. The church can play a big role in filling that prescription today, in a way that WalMart, the NHL, political parties or TV cannot.

JamesK said " Outside the organized church you can find increasing numbers who believe in Jesus and in God but also add - I am spiritual, not religious."  I've talked to some of the same kind of people (including my own daughter), and have found that their approach to churches is like finding the right greeting card. They have to find just the right message.  But that's unlikely to happen as any individual in any social organization isn't going to agree with everything the organization does or the way it does it. The inability to work with others and find mutual compromises is perhaps a related issue. In our increasingly fractured and individualistic society, why compromise when you can live in your own world? Yet there seems to be something that these people (including my daughter) are often missing; a certain lack of wholeness, a lack of personal meaning and a lack of confidence in the role they have to play in their larger community.

spiritbear

"Sorry again, but that's not enough. I can (and have) done a lot of social justice work without the Church being involved."

Exactly!  I can do just as much by joining the Kiwanis Club and I don't have to get up early Sunday moring! 

IT

Russ

I agree SpiritBear.

IBelieve - Look at the latest stats. It isn't just the liberal churches that are declining. It's basically all of them other than the Mormons.

I believe we are looking at a snapshot of a monumental change in the way people in the West approach religion. It's perhaps too early to say what it will become, but I think the people who are raising open-minded if challenging conversations about the process (Emerging Spirit, emerging church, people like Arimunis and Gretta Vosper, etc.) are on the right track. We need to be humble and listen.

Dateline: June 10, 2015.  In an attempt to stem the downward membership trend in the United Church, the 90th anniversary committee has approved the ordination of self-declared teenagers, self-declared pets; especially parrots who can be trained to pronounce benedictions and perform weddings.  Recognizing some clergy are merely parrots reflection the status quo under the threat of a section 363 review, it's not much of a jump.  Membership coupons are widely distributed opening membership to anyone with a pulse and with the promise a free toaster oven.  Ordination has been streamlined by offering mail order ordinations to anyone with a $50 donation.  For $100, the recipient may order an  Honourary Doctor of Divinity from any of the United Church theological colleges.  Sell them a 'Start Your Own Ministry' kit.  Cash or credit card only.  Mail orders allow six weeks delivery.  Get you pit bull ordained and buy him/her a free Doctorate so they can be the Rev. Dr. Rex, D.D.  Of course, he/she will always answer that life is treating him "ruff".  Help your church grow with a weekly FREE wine and cheese -  Canadian wines only.  (This contribution is for satire purposes only.   Anyone who takes this seriously needs to lighten up, it's Friday!)

SpiritBear

The people I am talking about that call themselves "Spiritual not Religious" tend to be well over 40 and have spent many years building their philosophy of life (mine has now taken about 45 years). They tend to meet once a week in someone's home for 2 or 3 hours of studying and meditation. The studying might involve books by Tom Harpur or Deepak Chopra. One of the very popular ones is A Course in Miracles. No one stands at the front of the room and says "we can't read from that book", or "that isn't what we believe".

These people typically have a strong confidence in the role they play in their community. Some are deeply involved in their church (organists, head of session, board members) but rely on their weekly group meetings to enhance their belief system.

RussP said "I can do just as much by joining the Kiwanis Club and I don't have to get up early Sunday moring!"

But Russ, what I am arguing is that if church is not worth getting up early on Sunday morning (? so 10:30 is early?), then there's something wrong with church that needs to be changed. If the food isn't filling, then go back to the kitchen, don't just shut the kitchen down. That way you don't get anything to eat, and you'll just be hungrier.

A few thoughts prompted  by the many interesting posts above:

In the Christian nation of the USA, despite all the growth in megachurches, they haven't reached a single percentage point more of the population than they were doing fifty years ago. So beating up on the UCC is a bit undeserving. The Southern Baptist Church in the USA is now shrinking as well, and expects to lose half its membership in the next 20 years. Given how inflated many of their congregations' numbers are, many expect the decline to be much more severe. And no one can accuse them of causing this decline because they were too liberal. Declining congregations outnumber growing congregations, and there is no correlation between declines and liberality.

An article in the current issue of Christianity Today states that a survey of unchurched popele are more attracted to traditional looking church buildings rather than modern shopping mall style churches.

The Emerging Spirit campaign won't change anything if the congregations are not engaging in Emergent church thinking, which is definitely not part of the campaign's goals.

We have often equated church growth with being a sign of God's favour. So what does that say to the Christian churches in places like Iraq or Pakistan, where they are rapidly being driven out?  The love of God is not conditional on how many new bums you put in the pews this year.

The future is emerging, it is a relational process.  It reminds me of an ancient curse which states "May you live in interesting times." Blame won't help us give birth to this new future. To give up on the emerging enterprise and turn to the 'unchanging' Catholic or Anglican churches reveals a lack of Biblical imagination. When God tells the prophet Samuel to anoint the new king of Israel, God sends Samuel to the tribe of Benjamin, the smallest of the twelve tribes. He goes to Bethlehem, the smallest village. He visits the home of Jesse, a simple shepherd. Samuel annoints the eighth and youngest son of Jesse, who was just a little lad. And that is how David became chosen to be king. Is anything impossible for God? And do we think it is all up to us?

Oh yeah, when the UCC turns 100, I'll be celebrating my official retirement. It will be quite the party. I'll be sure to invite you all.

Trends, shmends.

(Now I'm not dissing your Powerpoint presentation, Davidewart. Your presentation was very good.)  But I believe there is no way to predict trends.

We think that something will continue the way it always has. But that's not always the case. Consider the post-war legacy of the late 1940's and early 1950's. At that time, those people believed that the U.S. and U.S.S.R. would nuke each other into oblivion by the 21st century. Would any of them have believed that the Cold War would be over by the 1990's? Would any of them have believed that Germany would be reunified? Such beliefs would have been against all trends and statistics at the time.

In 1967, researchers were just discovering how bad tobacco smoke was. Just about everyone smoked in those days. Do you think people in 1967 would ever have believed that smoke-free malls, smoke-free office buildings, and smoke-free trans-atlantic flights would ever be the trend of the future? Believing that certainly went against all trends at the time.

 My point is this: I believe in God. I believe in humanity. I believe in community.

I believe there will be a place for me, always. Perhaps it will not always be called the United Church of Canada. After all, the amalgamation in 1925 must have been difficult for a lot of people. Perhaps a lot of them figured that the UCCan wouldn't last 10 years, since there were three denominations coming together, and that constitutes a lot of differences. I'm sure many of them balked at what their churches were doing, and they were unsure about the future.

I say we should stop trying to predict trends. If we value our faith, then we should serve God. If we value humanity, then we should work together to solve humanity's problems, like hunger, conflict, and poverty. If we value community, then we need to create community. Get involved. I have faith that there will always be others who value the same things I do.

The Mennonite Church in North America has planted hundreds of new congregations over the past decade. They have adopted a missional orientation which goes far beyond their traditional ethnic base. No one ever imagined the Mennonites would be growing instead of shrinking. A change of heart is always possible.

Thanks for the compliment.

I'd only point out though that everyone of the examples you gave changed, because a long term, sustained, effort was made to bring about the change.

I believe the "problem" we have is NOT with our faith, humanity or community. The "problem" is with our structures that are making it very difficult - impossible? - to engage in the long-term, sustained effort that is required to change these trends.

David E.

Frankly, that is what I am hoping this slide show might help bring about - a change of heart.

We need to - quickly, IMHO - start asking better questions about our situation, and develop some urgency to actually develop an approach that will serve the "modern city," to steal a phrase.

David E.

PS: I'll be 80 in 2025, but if I can still move, I expect an invitation to your party James!

Hi David:

In indigenous culture, the concept of organized religion did not exist. Spirituality was so much part of everyday culture that the notion of organizing spiritual practice as something apart from everyday culture would have seemed absurd.

Of course, different tribes or tribal groups had different spiritual narratives. But these were regarded as metaphorical, and the spiritual truths underlying them were regarded as universally true as scientific truths are today.

That's how I envision the spiritual human society of the future: A society were spiritual Truths are as universally accepted as scientific truths, but expressed metaphorically and differently by different cultural groups, and all metaphors of all cultural gruops point to the same divine Truths. Then denominational differences will become insignificant.

An impossible dream? If enough of us dream it, then the dream will become reality. Perhaps the United Church would do well to lead rather than follow the trend, and become the first post-denominational or interdenominational and truly "Unitive" Church.

I was raised Lutheran, but now regard myself as a Zen-Christian. I also dabbled in indigenous spirtuality and Sufism, and am partial to those as well. Although I presently belong to the United Church, I see no conflict in professing myself to those other religions as well. In fact, I regard myself belonging to all religions, or none.

God is beyond denominational differences, and Jesus was neither a Christian nor an orthodox Jew. The movement around Jesus and John the Baptist appears to have been largely mystical, much like indigenous spirituality. Doctrinal religion was not practiced or preached by Jesus, but came later, and definitely was no improvement over the original mystical movement. We would do well to get rid of the absolutist aspects of doctrine, and just regard them as sacred metaphors that are as valid and true as all other sacred metaphors of other religions.

Hi Arminius,

I share a lot of what you say. I think our point of departure is less about the content of spirituality than about the forms it might take in the future. I'm less optimistic than you seem to be that new insights from science and inter-faith sharing will lead to the culture as a whole practicing a shared way of life. Our context is so different than that of indiginous ones, I don't see that as a useful model.

David E.

Harvey Cox says faith cannot remain alive without personal participation in the symbols of faith... using Tillich he suggests that doubt is an essential part of faith and it is essential to have a community of faith and ritual and narrative.

Historically, in premodern groups this was also true, the difference was it was a whole way of life - ritual had its own institutional support  - only it was different from what we need today.

As James and David point out this is not just the UCC that will experience this shift toward postmodern experience - as James points out the southern baptist are experiencing a more significant decline.

The issue is the kind of emergent, progress, postmodern church that will be needed, and it is a deep theological shift that is needed.    It is one about the efficacious activity of God, how we understand incarnation.   There is a spiritual hunger - Whether we know or not, many in our culture have eaten its way through Darwin, Marx, Freud and Einstein and are still hungry.  This, and the fact of seekers, has a profound impact on how we do church.
 

Yes, David, our cultural context is very different from that of our indigenous people, and their model can't really apply to our modern culture. But something similar, perhaps? A post postmodern human culture that is universally aware of the omnipresent divine, and expresses this awareness in all aspects of everyday culture?

Culture is a co-creative effort by all of us, in co-creation with God. If we intentionally create a spiritual human culture, then it will become a reality.

That does not mean that different cultural groups cannot retain their unique wisdom traditions, religious narratives and teachings. It only removes the absolutist aspects from the various religious trajectories and regards them as sacred art.

Yes, Pan, there is a spiritual hunger out there that science cannot fulfil simply because it is not the job of science to give ultimate answers.

Religion satisfies that hunger, but the old "sabbath saws" don't cut it any more. Whether the new saws cut any better remains to be seen.

David

I agree that our structures (I'm Presbyterian) are like anchors that make it almost impossible to change. And I also agree that the "problem" isn't with the humanity and the community parts of the church.

But, assuming by "faith" you refer to the foundation of what is preached, I can't agree. I think that is the core of all of our problems. (I'm including "me" in the "our" because I help write the sermons for my wife - lay preacher). I believe those sermons should be able to draw from sources way beyond the Bible. Yet I have been taken to task for attempting to do just that. We gave up being a supply minister for one church for exactly that reason - rigid people.

PS - I enjoyed your slides. Good job!

JamesK- those who are unwilling to change, will die. Those who are willing to evolve, will survive. If the dominant voice of a community stifles change, innovation, novelty, evolution, then the progressive element of that community will have to chose to either die with the community, or leave it.

When sailors wanted to know the state of their sailing ship, they looked at the rats on board. If the healthy rats were jumping ship, that was the early warning that the boat was about to sink. We've had the early warning for a few decades now.

Well Ok, actually I do believe that "content" also has to evolve - to keep up with times. And by content I mean foundational ideas. I'd be toast in a congregation that wouldn't consider new information that has arisen in the past 2000 years.

David E.

RevJM said " Those who are willing to evolve, will survive.". While I agree with this in general, there are some caveats.  I think the UCC has evolved tremendously in its theology in regards to homosexuality, women, contraception, abortion, evolution and so on. Where there has been much less evolution is in other areas of the church, worship being a big one. Here, a refusal to either evolve or even to strike some kind of balance between what different generations find meaningful has effectively barred most of my generation (60 and under) from the church (with a few exceptions of course). 

So there is a self-perception in the UCC that because it has evolved on some fronts it can serve as a spiritual home for younger generations. The truth is that those generations are looking for more than that and won't give churches the time of day because their experience, validated over a span of 50 years, is that the church never changes (I'm not talking theological points here), at least in their lifetime. 

The question for me is - have we gone beyond the point of no return? I.e. if major changes in our form and practice had started in the early 90's (over and beyond the theological advances that did occur), a revival might have been possible, but now so few people see mainline churches offering anything of value that reform will no longer satisfy those outside the church and only alienate those inside.  I've been prepared to spend years investing time, energy and money into moving my congregation forward. Most of the rest of the population is willing to spend 20 minutes. I am now starting to wonder if it's worth continuing to prod people to act as if they had a future.

I would say that if the congregation isn't ready to start changing today, you should change without them. Start a house church. Start an alternative worship. Don't ask for permission. The time for planning is past. The future has already arrived. The time for action is now.

Right on!

THE LAST SEVEN WORDS OF THE CHURCH:  "WE NEVER DID IT THAT WAY BEFORE!"

Southpaw wrote "THE LAST SEVEN WORDS OF THE CHURCH:  "WE NEVER DID IT THAT WAY BEFORE!"

Amen. Which is why they stoned Stephen for preaching. Which is why Philip got demoted for baptizing the Samaritans and that Ethiopian Eunuch. Which is why Peter took witnesses along when he baptized Cornelius. Which is why it took Peter's epiphany at Cornelius' house before the other apostles allowed Paul to start preaching.

When we say "We never did it that way before", it shows we lack a biblical imagination or a true appreciation of what God is capable of.

In Acts 15 they held a Council meeting in Jerusalem to decide whether or not these new Gentile converts would have to be circumcised before they could be accepted into the household of God. Do you think the Holy Spirit would have been sitting there holding her breath waiting for the outcome of the vote? Do you think she would be limited by them? Or was she daring them to follow her lead?

It's God who does the new thing, the next thing, and we are invited to follow God's lead. God is doing amazing things in the world right now. Do we dare NOT follow?