That totally sucks dude. You should be able to pray where you want (being aware of your safety) without being interupted. Could you not use some paper towel to wash you feet? That might take care of the feet in the sink issue. You do have a right to practice your religion however you wish without prosecution.

As a Christian, I would be pissed if somebody told me I couldn't read my bible in public, or pray before I eat in a restaurant. Me being me however, I would just continue to do what I do. It would most likely cause a scene, but hey, so be it. I have a pretty short fuse when people tell me what to do.

You could also make the claim that if this atheist says you are displaying your religion in a way that is offensive to him, that his accusation is offensive to you. Why should his atheism have more importance than your religion? It shouldn't.

I usually fight fire with fire. Hence my screen name.

It's not like you're spreading your religion so it shouldn't be a big deal to anyone. If it's this one particular atheist who's being an asshole, it's probably not because he's an atheist; it's because he's an idiot. I don't think you should have to go all the way to the gym just to wash your feet too. Cf's idea is a good substitution for that imo.

Omni, have you ever tried washing in the water fountain. THEN, they would have something to complain about.

Wow, even this short it has been an interesting thread already.

The_Omnissiah wrote:

> ... "asshole atheist" ... "intolerant
> dick" ... "ignorant, 'red-neck' people" ...

You know, for a thread that is complaining about a lack of tolerance, its content seems somewhat ironic.

Consumingfire wrote:

> You do have a right to practice your
> religion however you wish without
> prosecution.

Funny, I hear this argument a lot from religious people, that we have to respect people's religious beliefs.  That people have the right to believe what they want, and to follow those beliefs.
 
Let's leave the law, Charter of Rights, etc. out of it for a minute.  Do these arguments not mean that we should sit back and just say "Oh, well" when, say, some religious fanatics blow up an abortion clinic, or fly planes into buildings, or detonate car bombs and belt-bombs in public places?  Are we supposed to just go "Ho, hum, another religious believer out practicing his religion.  Clean up on aisle 4!!!"  After all, they had the right to practice their religion however they wished, right?

Consuming fire then wrote: 
> As a Christian ... I have a pretty short
> fuse when people tell me what to do. 
 

Hmmm.  Isn't that what Christianity is, doing what others (Jesus, God, the Pope, characters from the Bible, church leaders, etc.) tell you to do?

killer_rabbit79 wrote:

> If it's this one particular atheist who's
> being an asshole, it's probably not because
> he's an atheist; it's because he's an idiot.

Yep, lots of tolerance being displayed in this thread complaining about a lack of tolerance.

Unfortunately, he did say it because he was an atheist.  Not saying all atheists are bad, but he said it and claimed in on the grounds of his atheism that religious expression like that offended him.  And by the way...pretty much everyone up here is an ignorant redneck of sorts.  It's the truth, not ironic one bit.

The only problem with your arguement here is that those people aren't practicing their religion.  Protesting against abortion, that is a form of christian expression of religion.  Blowing on up is not.  A Muslim who blows himself up is going to hell.  And is not emulating the Qur'an or the example of the Prophet (P.B.U.H).  Btw fatwas have been issued reaffirming and compunding the fact that suicide bombing is unacceptable.   And these things have very little to do with religion in the first place (the suicide bombings).  Religion is just being abused and contorted to help it along it's path.  The real cause is that after years of imperialism, and now modern real or precieved american imperialism, these people are fighting back with the only thing they know is effective. 

Another fun fact is that Suicide bombing is less than 25 years old and was initiated by the tamil tigers (a hindu terrorist group).

Isn't obeying the law just doing what the lawman is telling you to do?

Again Killer_rabbit is here to keep me from insulting atheists.  Thank you killer rabbit.  He is and idiot, but he is also and atheist.  And it was his own reason for his complaint.  I just don't think it's fair that people can see muslims blowing themselves up and blame it on the faith, and i can't  blame an atheist's complaint (based on his 'faith') on the atheist's 'faith'.

I Understand that not all atheists are assholes!!!!  I really do, I know a fair few!  I'm just saying that this is one case where the reason he was being an ass was because he was an atheist.  Just like if an evangelical christian was annoying someone with their preaching or w/e.  That person would be perfectly justified in saying that person's faith was the cause of their....to use the term..."assholeishness"

Assalaam Alaiykum

-Omni

Does being an atheist give you religious rights? It is not a religion,  is it?

Technically it is a religion which is ironic because it's a religion against religion.  Anywho, you could argue for a while on the exact definition of atheism...but you raise an interesting point.  Does the a-religiousness of a person trump the religiousness of another?

No idea.

Just from experiance I'd have to say...yes...:(

Assalaam Alaiykum

-Omni

Omni - I am sorry for your troubles.  It must be difficult to practice your religion in the face of such ignorance and intolerance.  You have a right to have the time and space for your prayers without hassle.  Maybe some Christians should follow your example.

About footwashing - would it be possible for you to keep a small basin in your locker and use it in the bathroom to wash your feet, and surely the staff could provide you with a corner that is not being used somewhere for your prayers - in the library, in an unused classroom, a nook or cranny, the waiting room in the nurse's office - anywhere you could face East and say your prayers. 

And this person who is offended by your saying your prayers is probably also offended by a good many other things that shouldn't bother him at all.  Let's hope that the teachers and principal and school board come to realize that your right to pray is just as important as his right not to pray.  

No one should be forced to practice a relgion that he doesn't believe, but at the same time no one should be prevented from practicing his religion.  (And no - blowing up buildings or people is not practicing any religion that I know of.)

Thank you for your comments :)

I have a place to pray, but I just think it would less of a hastle, and would take up less class time, If I could just wash and then do my prayer right outside the class,  less moving around, less time wasted, and honestly kids shouldn't generally be out of class at the time so I don't think i'd be bothering anyone.  Oh well.

A small basin is a good idea, I never thought about it...Thanks for the idea, I'm going to look into that :)

Fun fact: Qibla (direction to mecca aka the direction we pray to) where I am is actualy 5.1 degrees east of north.  Not directly east.  This is calculated by the shortest distrance in a straight line around the world or something.  I'm not 100% sure. 

Your right, he is offended by things he ought not be offended by.  He really is just trying to stir up trouble and be an ass I think...

I agree no one should be forced into a religion.  Thats why in the qur'an is states that there is no compulsion in religion.  But I don't think that my praying is forcing anyone to convert.  Heck, if they are worried about being swayed to the darkside (lol) then maybe they should just not look/give in muahahahah! lol...

Assalaam Alaiykum

-Omni

Omni, I find it sad that you are facing this hardship.

Many, many years ago, when I was a young college student I remember encountering a young man praying in a stairwell.  This was back in the dark ages, and I was a fresh to the city rural girl who had never encountered a Muslim. 

I got up the courage to ask him why he prayed on the landing.  He explained about having to face a certain direction.  Being a curious cat, I asked if there was not somewhere other than the stairwell (which to me seemed rather depressing).  He pointed to the window and said that he liked the way the sun hit the floor.  I was struck by both his devotion and the quiet strength of his faith.  That memory is still with me after all this time.

Your complainer, in closing his mind to other's experiences, is only blinding himself.

Oh, and FYI

Universal Declaration of Human Rights Article 18

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Government of Canada Human Rights Program

LB

All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree. All these aspirations are directed toward ennobling man's life, lifting it from the sphere of mere physical existence and leading the individual towards freedom.     Albert Einstein

 My dad was with the Scot's Guards in his young years and spent time in Cyprus and Egypt.  He remembers the call to prayer ringing out over the cities very distinctly.  He is about as WASP as they get, and a Catholic to boot. but admits once he got used to it he found it quite stirring.

People all want the same thing: to worship in their own way, to live and love and have families in peace and safety. 

It's actually not a religion, it's one belief that can be a part of a religion (eg. Taoism) but it is not a religion itself. It is not a system of beliefs and it is not organized, meaning it can't be a religion. Atheists and theists don't have to be religious.

Anyway, about the point ch brings up, if you wouldn't get religious rights for being an atheist, you would get them for being a Taoist or Buddhist or some other atheistic religion. The non-religious (which includes atheists, agnostics and theists) should have the right to not be forced to pray (eg in a Catholic school), which could technically be considered a religious right (as in freedom to practice any religion or no religion), but that would not specifically be geared toward atheists.

Dude, I'm an atheist. And I think you completely misinterpretted my post. I was trying to say that if the guy was being an asshole, it was because he's an idiot, not specifically because of his atheism. There are lots of idiots of many different creeds. Some are atheists, like this guy, but many atheists are cool of course (I'm specifically talking about me here )

np bro. Sounds like the guy's just in the angry stage of atheism. I've been there. Maybe in a few years he'll calm down and get more tolerant. However, if he's as much of an idiot as you make him out to be then he might not be fortunate enough to have that happen to him.

A  and Omnissiah

Interesting reading.  While reading your posts,  I had this thought:

Atheists who have no space for people's religions haven't learned about morality, compassion, empathy et al. and indeed, atheists in their baby state may not understand what they are saying when they sputter some Stalinism like praying in public is a lynchable practice. 

At the end of his life, Joseph Campbell an atheist exCatholic - Catholic disliking -  mega scholar, mentor, shaman, researcher, allowed a Catholic priest to attend his bedside.  Campbells' wife was shocked that Campbell crossed himself with the Priest as they talked together.  Later, she questioned Campbell about this and he said that these were the symbols of the Priest  and that they were as important and meaningful as masks or any tokens of religion.  They make up our stories and tell us about who we are.  It did not stop him from being an atheist to be part of the Priest's ritual, nor did it make him a hypocrite or a liar. 

Omni, I do understand why you're annoyed.  Who wouldn't?  We all want to be able to do what we want to do, and we all take offense when someone tries to prevent that, especially when we believe that what we are doing, or trying to do, isn't hurting anyone.

But your labelling, sterotyping and generalizing seems, to me, to be no better than the actions and thinking that you are complaining about.  What I'm getting from your post is that since the guy doesn't like what you do, he must be an asshole (or, as Killer said, an idiot).  What I'm getting from your post is that a rural, less-educated populace needs to be branded as being a bunch of ignorant red-necks.

As an atheist who is trying hard to understand why and how religion and religious belief captivate and motivate so many, I am so often being told how they make people more compassionate, understanding, forgiving, tolerant, open-minded.  I'm not seeing any of that in your posts or in the posts of others supporting your position here.  Maybe this boy from a less-educated, less-worldy part of the country is genuinely afraid of the "Muslim threat" that the media has broadcast to him.  Maybe him seeing you do your ablutions makes him afraid.  Maybe you should have compassion and pity on this person who is, obviously, close-minded.  Maybe you should be understanding of where he is coming from, how he got to that point in his thinking, and try to walk a bit in his shoes, try to consider his environment, his upbringing, his socio-economic class, and a bunch of other factors.  Maybe you should try turning the other cheek, as they say.

My comments in this thread stemmed from that fact that I was just surprised with the venomous nature of the comments and opinions concerning this one person based on his actions.  He has his beliefs, his fears, his impressions, and he acted on them.  Don't we all do that?  Isn't this going to be a better place if we all try to understand one another, try to find a common or at least level ground, rather than so quickly condemning anyone else who doesn't think, act, or behave like we think they should?  Then shouldn't that apply as equally to us as to those around us?

That's all.  As I continue to try to understand the religious and religion, I am consistently finding contradiction between what I am being told it is all about, and how many of those practicing it actually conduct themselves.  And instead of clarifying things, it just adds to the mystery for me.

Killer wrote:

> Dude, I'm an atheist. ... if the guy was being an

> asshole, it was because he's an idiot, not specifically

> because of his atheism.

Killer, I am aware of your atheism.  However, my point was merely that neither Omni's original post nor those following it seemed to be displaying much in the way of tolerance.  The guy's an idiot?  Just because of how he thinks, how he feels, what he believes?  Shouldn't we try to understand his motivation for complaining about Omni's actions before we condemn him for making the complaint?  Shouldn't we try to understand why he thinks / feels the way he does?  If he grew up in an environment of intolerance, if who he has become was molded in an environment where such an outcome would be almost impossible to avoid, why would we condemn him for that?

So, sorry for speaking up, but what I saw was a thread complaining about intolerance and a lack of understanding by demonstrating equal intolerance and an equal lack.  Seemed weird to me, that's all.

Hi MRD, welcome! I think you have some valid points but do you also believe that everyone should  have a safe place to vent? Better here than in this guys face wouldn't you agree? After the anger dies down by speaking here, Omni will be more equipped to stand up for himself in a less destructive way and be more effective to actualize his rights.

Sometimes Wondercafe is a place to just let off steam because Christians are always a work in progress. We're not perfect but God loves us warts and all.

Where or where to begin.

1) Well, as Omni pointed out, your logic is quite flawed. A person has a right to practice their religion. A  person does not have the right to destroy property, blow up anything or murder people. So your "Christian blowing up an abortion clinic" is an appeal to emotion, quite possibly an appeal to ridicule.

2) I would suggest that if a Christian wants to blow up an abortion clinic or murder a doctor who performs abortions that they consult their Bible as Commandment 6 is against murder. I a person has a propensity to commit violent and evil acts, I would suggest that it is because their heart and mind are not in right satnding with each other. Religion does not breed evil, people breed evil. Many atheists have also commited evil acts.  A Christian should instead pray for women who have abortions and doctors who perform them.

3) I follow Jesus Christ my Lord and Saviour. As I believe He is God the Son and died for my sins, I love Him and follow Him with all of my heart, soul, mind and strength. His glorious resurrection is an attestation for me that He, and only He is worthy of glory, honour and praise.

4) I do not follow a priest or pope (I am not Catholic), as I believe there is only one mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus Christ. If my pastor taught something that I believed went against scripture, I would most definately question him on it, and I believe that he would expect to be questioned.  As it stands, my church believes that our final authority on all matters is God's word. Therefore, if somebody told me that I could not read my Bible in public (which I do) or pray before we eat in a restaurant (which we do), yes, I would challange them.

Your arguments are a tired and sorry attempt at trying to discredit religion by creating strawman arguments.

MRD. It's hard to leave out what the law of the land says in your argument because as a Christian, I am to respect the law of the land (as is anybody). It is illegal to murder or to steal or to destroy property.

Just a question by the way. If atheism is not an organized religion, would not Dwakins red A align you with a specific group of people as a symbol of what you believe? Is not the Out Campaign organizing a group of people with specific beliefs?

As the Out Campaign site says:

"It is time to let our voices be heard regarding the intrusion of religion in our schools and politics. Atheists along with millions of others are tired of being bullied by those who would force their own religious agenda down the throats of our children and our respective governments. We need to KEEP OUT the supernatural from our moral principles and public policies."

That does not seem very tolerant.  Could not the atheists in this case be accused of forcing their views down the throats of our children?

"Religion does not breed evil, people breed evil."

Without people, there would be no religion, so you can't seperate what religion or any ideological doctrine  "makes" people do from scripture (or whatever passes for scripture)

 "As it stands, my church believes that our final authority on all matters is God's word. Therefore, if somebody told me that I could not read my Bible in public (which I do) or pray before we eat in a restaurant (which we do), yes, I would challange them."

What if the waiter told you God told him to ask you to put it away?

I totally agree. Without people, there would be no religion. I have had enough of religion I tell you. Small r religion sucks. Good thing that Jesus is not religion.

I would pray about it,  turn to 2 Timothy 3:16 and continue reading.

Hi Omni,

I see from your profiile that you are under 18 so i am assuming that you are talkinga bout highschool here, not university.

Canadian high schools are secular institutions by law and that may be causing some of the issues. 

I would firstly ask for a meeting with the VP in chrage of student affairs or whatever the title.

I would discuss options with this person. 

Are there others in the school who would like a place to pray?  That might be an issue for the school and the Board.  But perhaps an unsued classroom or meeting room could be set aside as a non denominational meditaion room.  Maybe.

But , you could look at how your particular school handles the issues of Christmas concerts to see how tightly they conform to the rules.

I would then suggest you perhaps talk to your religious leader and ask for some guidance.

what are the "rules" in totallity.?

Are there exceptions?

IE, what do muslims do who for instance drive the subways or city buses.?

What would a muslim pilot do?

What would a muslim soldier do?

What woudl a muslim surgeon do?

In these few examples i can see where stopping my actions would not be consistent with my job.  Hence there must be some leeway here.

What would you do if you were writing an exam.  I am pretty sure you wouldn't want to lose 5 - 15 mintues of exam time and pretty sure the teachers wouldn't let you run out to the bathroom/prayer room either.  The chance of cheating being so great there.

So perhaps the compromise is to use a small basin ( buy a collapable type people carry for dogs) to wash , or maybe skip the washing, or maybe just sprinkly water as a compromise, or maybe wet a paper towel...........

Maybe the next compromise is to modify the time for yourself when needed.  Do your praying during class breaks, in the soon to arrive meditaion room, set up a let arrival with the next class teacher.

If in fact there is no room for leaway in time and or washing practice, i would ask for the time required and give in on the cleaning in the sink issue.  Use a basin/plastic bag to hold the water.

Actually, CF, my arguments are an honest attempt by me to understand something that completely baffles me.  I have come here, to WonderCafe, in an attempt to better my understanding of what motivates religious people to believe what they believe, and to act as they act.  Because I don't understand it. 

My mother has, in recent years, become incredibly devout in her religious convictions and actions, so much so that I no longer recognize her, nor can I relate to her.  She does not have the education or inate ability to follow arguments of science or logic, so I cannot debate religion with her, nor glean an iota of understanding when all she can do is fall back on things like "It's in the Bible", "God / Jesus says so", "You have to respect the religious beliefs of others", etc.  That does nothing to help me understand.

I thought, during my initial lurking through the forums, that the people here demonstrated a level of clarity, intelligence, insight, capacity for logic, and so on, and I honestly hoped I'd finally be able to get some answers here, rather than the usual rhetoric.  If my questions and arguments seem tired and sorry, and if they seem to be trying to discredit religion, then I apologize.  They are honest questions by someone who is curious, and who does not understand, where you are all coming from, and who frankly sees a lot of contradiction between what is done and what is said.

As for your last post:

> A  person does not have the right to

> destroy property, blow up anything

> or murder people.

Really?  Is it that cut and dried?  Again, sorry for using tired arguments, but what about soldiers in war time, what about capital punishments, what about the bomb squad detonating someone's brief-case they accidentally left at the train station, what about the city tearing down someone's house because they deem it structurally unsafe?  These are all counter-examples to that statement.  So everything needs to be tempered, perhaps even the right to practice one's religion, with exceptions, with nods to other considerations, etc.

> I follow Jesus Christ my Lord and Saviour.

>  As I believe He is God the Son and died for

> my sins, I love Him and follow Him with all

> of my heart, soul, mind and strength. His

> glorious resurrection is an attestation for me
> that He, and only He is worthy of glory, honour

> and praise.

OK, I accept your position on this.  And it's a perfect chance for me to tackle the reason I am here at WonderCafe.  Heck, if I can be made to understand, then I wouldn't need to keep asking such tired and sorry questions.  So, I ask, with honest intentions, in order to better my understanding:

Why do you believe this?

What logic or reasoning led you to these conclusions?

If your position was not based on logic or reason, where else in your life do you arrive at similarly strong conclusions and positions without applying logic or reason?  If no where else, then why does religion hold this special place, among all other topics or areas of interest?

Hi MRD,

You mention your mother becoming more devote as she ages and you dn't understand it.

You mention not being able to discuss science with her.

But she is only talking about faith.  And faith is not scientifically provable.  It is faith.

If your mother is getting comfort and peace with her beliefs are you harmed?  Does it matter if you agree or disagree?  Does she agree with all the life choices you have made?

I would cut your mom some slack.  Perhaps to better understand where she might be coming from , turn your scientific ideals towards some indepth theological books.

Take a sampling of conservative, perhaps NT Wright, and liberal, perhaps Borg and study them through.  Maybe if you put the onus on yourself to try to learn what she believes rather than the onus on her to explain it to you, you might enhance your understanding of your mother.

For me, i believe that there is a God, who loves us, wants us to be in a relationship and will be with me always.  I have read enough to be comfortable with this belief.  I am fairly intellegent and yet, i also couldn't really debate you point on point for why i have these beliefs.  It is enough for me that i have them.

Perhaps your mom is like me.

SO educate your self.  If this was nuclear physics we were talking about, you wouldn't expect me to explain it to you so you could totally understand it woudl you?  You would listen to me, take my reading suggestions and learn for yourself.

Um, if I might just reflect on what's happening here--the fellow in question has done a great deal more than 'think, feel and believe'--he is causing a disruption, in an ungentlemanly fashion.  We might take a moment to reflect on  where he's coming from, but he might also take a moment to brush up on some social skills.  (If I were 'Bahai chick' I'd be mighty cautious.)

If I were Omni, I'd be asking myself (and other Muslims) how the situation might be resolved.  What do folks do, who are working in offices?  Does Allah offer any creative solutions to such a situation?  What if there was no water available to a person at all--then what?  These days, we use towelettes--antibacterial and all, they're cheap and easily available and Allah might let you by with that.

One other thing that occurs to me: this may be a secular society, yes; but the fact that you are invited in, welcomed in, and allowed to leave school classes for time to pray, is won for you by Christians as much as anything.  For some reason Christians are not allowed to pray in school (not in a way that is seen and heard) but we'll fight for your right to do it.  It's 'way more convenient though, the way Christians pray--others can't tell at all, it's on-the-spot, anywhere and everywhere, any time and every time, no special equipment or anything required.  Funny, huh?  Would Allah let you try that?

Weeze

But I still see your arguments as an appeal to emotion. In times of war, a soldier is doing what his government and superiors are asking of him. As I understand it, there still are rules of engagement and guidelines to follow and any breach of these is unacceptable. I do not believe in capitol punishment and as I understand is not in practice in Canada.  If a house is structurally unsafe and is deemed beyond repair, then it should be demolished. These are governmental issues, not  religious ones. Some people may try to make them religious issues.

Yikes...lots to answer for...well, here it goes....

MRD. As to your other question as to why I follow and accept Jesus as my Lord and Saviour.

It's rather a long testimony. The coles notes version goes something like this. Up until I was about 25 years old, I lived my live for myself. Me and only me. I was extemely arrogant, cocky, I abused drugs and alcohol and was into some very dark things (of which I will not go into to detail). I was not seeking after God. The way I was living my life made me feel spiritually filthy and disgusting. 

One day, after trying to fill my life with everything but God, I was made to realize (by who I now recognize as the Holy Spirit) that I was a sinner in need of repentance.  I was headed toward a spiritual death until God pulled me out of that pit when I surrendered my life to Jesus Christ. I tried to hide my deeds in the dark but the Gospel of Jesus exposed me for what I really was, a rotten sinner, spiritually dead and headed toward Hell.

I can't explain the change that took place in me other than to say it was the work of the Holy Spirit. Only He could have cleansed my heart and renew a right spirit within me. The moment I accepted God's gift and surrendered my life to Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit began the renovation.

Why do I believe this? Faith. I believe what I believe because of faith. There is a story which solidifies my belief which I would prefer to keep to myself only to say that it only could have been God getting my attention in a most profound way.

Through the studie of apologetics, I also believe that the Christian faith is logical and one does not have to "commit intellectual suicide" when one becomes a Christian. Apologetics has only bolstered my faith in God's word and in Jesus Christ. But in the end for me, faith wins every time.

Jesus is my Lord and Saviour and I will never sell Him out. 

Yes, I believe he is at that point, but instead of intellect to fall back on, he falls back on ignorance and prejudice.  I have to say, I've always admired an atheist's retreat to intellect.  If there is one thing I can't stand, it's a....not so smart atheist. lol.  I mean, the whole priniciple of atheism is that science and logic determine what exists, and through that there is no God am I correct?

So where do...less intellectually advanced atheists get off?

Sorry if any of this offended you or anything, t'was not my intent.

Assalaam Alaiykum

-Omni

MRD. I hope my answers give you a bit of an insight as to why I believe what I believe. Perhaps it might even give you a bit of an insight as to why your mother believes as well. You do have honest and fair questions and I hope to have answered a few of them.

 Sorry if I come off as abrasive. There is a reason behind my screen name.

I assume your implying that my praying is hurting someone? If not i'm sorry to have misinterpreted.  If so, isn't that a very "your ruining my moral fabric/stability by exposing me to your faith" kinda thing to say?  Very extremist no?  Communist indeed for the fact that it's faith, and fascist because of the "don't 'taint' me" way of thinking.

I can understand where you are coming from here.  You assume that i'm just labelling this rural and less educated people as ignorant rednecks.  Well, I am, because it's true.  Aside from the small majority, pretty much everyone where I live is ignorant to a greater or lesser degree.  I live in a town of just over 4000 people, and I know pretty much EVERYONE.  I know nothing I can say will make you just believe me, but if you knew me, you'd know i'm not lying, and if you lived here, you'd agree with me.

As the popst somewhere inbetween this reply and your original said: "Isn't WC a good place to vent?"  and I am now ready to argue 'sober' ;)    I think if he does fear me, it has turned to hatred, but to all intents and purposes I HAVE turned the other cheek (not that that is a specific rule in islam...).  I have dealt with it.  I've gone to the gym, i've sucked it up and spat.  What I posted here for was to get everyone's take on this.  I don't think it's fair, but I don't want to be seen as whiny or complaining.  I'm just trying to throw it out there, and I'm going to say this now, I don't hate the guy.  He's a door knob but I don't hate him.  Although he surely dislikes me. 

As to your talk about trying to understand where he is coming from, I do understand where he's coming from.  But it doesn't help.  Knowing the cause of the problem doesn't always solve it.  He doesn't like what is different and what is 'strange', his only exposure to Islam has been through the media, and that has led him to hating me.  What I have to say is taht it's his very nature that I won't be able to sit him down, talk things over, explain.  It won't happen, no matter how hard I try, he is just too intolerant.  Thats why I came here to talk about it, because honestly, who else was I going to talk to it about...him?

Hitler had his own beliefs and opinions and he acted upon them.  Does it make it something one should defend?  It's great to understand, and I do understand but like I said above I understand...that it's not going to solve the problem.  Which by the way there isn't really a problem because i'm living with it.  So say he is intolerant, now that I understand him, should I sink to his level to be on common ground?   I think even you can agree that intolerance isn't something we should endorse or let sit without doing anything about or speaking out about.

Meh, people aren't perfect, you should know that.  The problem is that the bad apple's stink flys far from the patch.  (The bad actions of one will easily overpower the good actions of many especially in the eyes of the media, which is a lot os people's only exposure to issues like this).

Assalaam Alaiykum

-Omni

It sounds like you want to understand the person more than you want to fix the problem, and I can't think of any excuse as why anyone should be entitled to their intolerance.  Perhaps he needs to be exposed to more information, and varying opinions, and his intolerance won't let him do that, so how do we fix the problem?

No, it's ok, and actually appreciated.  Religious people need atheists and detractors to keep them in line and remind them what their own religion actually stands for.  And as a little side-note I was once an atheistic agnostic, and I can understand where your coming from.  See, I understaaaand!! lol :)

Assalaam Alaiykum

-Omni

Thank you, that was intent actually :)  And i'm ready for serious discussion now.

Assalaam Alaiykum

-Omni

Omni, I am sorry this thread has been hijacked the way it has, but the ensuing discussion is exactly why I came to Wonder Cafe, so if you don't mind, I will continue to perpetuate the discussion...

Lastpointe wrote: 

When children are left alone, the they are taught by media, or the views of school teachers, or books , life issues, like it or not kids will be taught by external events , a parent has a right to teach them there religion as an opposite view, even with these religious teachings to kids, conviction whether God is a tooth fairy or real comes about only by God.

In Canada kids study world religions, atheism included , they also study evolution , as a parent I taught my kids about Christianity, kids are well rounded in schools today, out of all these teachings they made there choice, i am thankful it was Jesus.

Hey, Omni, thanks for taking the time to wade through the volume of comments.

First, you did indeed mis-interpret me.  No, I wasn't saying your actions were hurting anyone.  I don't think they were.   I was just saying that I can understand your frustration at someone trying to prevent you from performing your harmless acts.

> It sounds like you want to understand the person

> more than you want to fix the problem, and I can't

> think of any excuse as why anyone should be

> entitled to their intolerance. 

Well, I think you need to understand the person in order to understand the problem, and then maybe you can fix it.  His intolerance stems from somewhere - his family, his society, his education or lack thereof, whatever.  Understanding why he is intolerant, and from where it stems, might help you educate him or, if it's a lost cause, begin to change some of the things to prevent generating future versions of him and his level of intolerance.

> Perhaps he needs to be exposed to more

> information, and varying opinions, and his

> intolerance won't let him do that, so how do

> we fix the problem?

You may have to acknowledge that he is a lost cause, and address instead the forces and influences that got him to that close-minded level of intolerance in the first place, for future good effect.

You'd be correct in that assumption.

Indeed.

I'm thinking of this, a meeting will materialize eventually.

As far as I know no.  Not too sure though, i'm sure there would be some to take advantage of the opportunity if given the chance, but none who are motivated by absolutes of faith.

Hmm, we don't have christmas concerts lol.

I don't know any except for a fellow Muslim who is kinda a internet pen pal in Pakistan... I'll look into it, there are some nice Calgary-ans I could talk to.

Yes, there are rules.

Yes, there are exceptions.

The Qur'an states that the 5 obligitory prayers are allowed to be put off if one is travelling and it isn't feasable to stop to pray, or if one is sick to the point of not being able to pray, or if they are under immediate threat during the time when the prayer would normally be done.

Finish his flight and pray as soon as he could afterwards.

If in battle, they would hold off until the battle was over.  If just deployed, or at camp, or something like that, half the army would pray while the other half covered them, then they would switch.

Either finish his operation, or have another take over for him until he was done.  Who knows, a little prayer to calm oneself down might help with the surgery!

A Muslim should not, as a rule, strive harder than is possible for him/herself.  If a Prayer is totally unfeasible, then one would put it off, but in class that I would pray in, instruction is already finished and we are just getting a head start on homework.  

Nope, you'd finish the exam then pray.  It probably wouldn't hurt to do a non-obligatory prayer beforhand too as a way of calming one's self.

What i've come up with is that a basin with a cloth would probably be best.  What say you?

I do one prayer (Zuhr) during my spare (just after lunch, before my chem class), and the next prayer (Asr) near the end of last period (during chem class). Now officially i'm supposed to go to the gym to wash and then either the gym or the student services room to pray.  But in my last class the chem teacher has offered to let me use the empty bio lab.  I'm allowed to wash my feet there because there is a lot worse things that have been thrown down the sink and feet are none of anyone's concern lol.  I.E. no one uses them for purposes of self-sanitation.

I agree, a basin/waterpouch and cloth is what I think i'll go with.

Thank you for you comments :)

Assalaam Alaiykum

-Omni

I like to say it people do not have the right to do all those things without justifiable cause.  If your at war, your at war because you were attacked/were being oppressed.   If you using capital punishment it is because the person in question has been deemed either too dangerous to live, or to have gone so far past the pale that his continued existance represents a threat of re-offending. Which is close but not exactly the same as the above.

If someone blows up a suitcase, it is because they think it might have the ability to harm innocents.  If someone blows up a hospital it is because they don't have any other way that they can see, or want to use, to get a message across to people.  As you can see the fore is justified, and latter is...rather extreme.

A city destroying an unsafe building is because it represents a threat to safety. 

I understand where your going with tempering everything, and I kinda agree.  What i'm saying is that is Praying such a huge threat to safety like your examples?

ASsalaam Alaiykum

-Omni

CF, thank you for being willing to accept my questions and arguments as an honest attempt to seek knowledge and understanding.  I definitely to not mean to attack or discredit anyone.

And especially, thanks for being will to offer up your answer to my questions.  I appreciate your candor.

> One day ... I was made to realize ... (by who I

> now recognize as the Holy Spirit) that I was a

> sinner in need of repentance. 

OK.  But that's exactly where I get lost.  What is the basis of your decision that it was God or Jesus?  Why couldn't it just have been you coming to your senses?  Or you becoming sick and tired of the status quo, and deciding to pull up your own bootstraps?  Why isn't it enough to say "I don't know what came over me?"  It's the basis of this leap to the conclusion that "Hey, it must have beeen God" that I still do not understand. 

> I can't explain the change that took place in me

> other than to say it was the work of the Holy Spirit.

If you couldn't explain it, did you feel the need to invent an explanation?  Were you uncomfortable not being able to explain the change that had come over you?

> Only He could have cleansed my heart and

> renew a right spirit within me.

How do you know that?

> Why do I believe this? Faith. I believe what I

> believe because of faith.

It all seems so circular to me.  "I have faith in what I believe because I have faith." 

My mother tried to explain her faith by an example.  She said "You have faith that your wife won't cheat on you, don't you?  My faith in God is like that."  And I said "Yes, I do.  But I do not have that faith blindly.  I have that faith based on the experience I have built up over the years interacting with other people.  I have that faith because her beviour shows me just how much she loves me and respects me.  I have that faith because her behaviour contains none of the indicators (which I sadly did not recognize until after the fact) that my first wife, who did cheat on my, showed.  I have taken my experience and my observations, and I have looked at the historical events and correlated them to the behaviours I have experienced and observed, and I have assigned a relatively high probability to the expectation that my current wife is unlikely to cheat on me.  And that is based on where we are now, and what has gone on to date.  That could change over time.  I could do something stupid that I could envision would affect her feelings for me.  She could fall in love with someone at work, and I would start to detect changes in her behaviour.  So over time I might start to adjust my probability assessment based on some new information.  But my faith in her not cheating on my is a reasoned and logically arrived at expectation of the relative probability of her not cheating on me.  I do not embrace the belief blindly."

My Mom was unable to provide any similar explanation for the reasoning behind her faith in God.  Yet that's the kind of explanation I am looking for. 

CF, I mean no disrespect, but to answer "Why do you believe in Jesus?" with "Well, because Jeesus saved me from a life of sin." really doesn't help me much.  Explaining how you arrived at an expectation of the truth of something by first assuming the truth of that something seems rather circular.  And I understand if that's the only explanation people can give me.  But it still leaves me mystified, and my fundamental questions unanswered.

I'd agree.

I think that a water basin or something and a cloth would work well. And I am asking myself how this can be resolved, and am dealing with the current situation. 

Yes, and christians visiting Israel is due to in at least some small part of jews, and christians visiting Turky is in some small part thanks to Muslims.  What I have to say is that it was people of the respective faiths that started asking for the right to pray, not christians. Sure some of them said "it's a righteous cause, i'll support  it"  and fought it but they can't take all the credit.  Not trying to degrade the good things christians have done in the past.

Also, yes, Christian prayers are more 'convienent'.  Muslims can pray like that too, it's called a Dua'a, or personal prayer.   But it cannot be substituted for an obligitory prayer.   The 5 Obligitory prayers and any optional prayers of that type (salat), involve x number of ra'ka and are more complex than the just saying the lord's prayer and then INRI.  I don't mean to degrade the faith of christians.  Salat is more of a form of worship.  You are prostrating yourself as a sign of devotion to Allah, the creator of all as commanded in the Qur'an.  Dua'a are more of just like christians do, talking to god, asking for forgiveness, or help in the moment.  Thanking God, et cetera. 

In salat, one proclaims the glory of Allah, and asks for forgiveness and sends blessings upon the prophets and the Ummah (the brotherhood of Islam) and reafirms their status as Muslim by reciting the Shahada (La ilaha ill allah muhammad-ar rasoolulallah, or I testify there is no god but Allah, and Muhammed was his messanger).

Assalaam Alaiykum (peace be unto you)

-Omni

Well thats fair, and I'm glad you are willing to admit there are intolerant atheists, just like I admit there are intolerant Muslims et cetera.  I know some people who would never even dream there is such a thing as a bad atheist (atheisto*cough*). :)

Assalaam Alaiykum

-Omni

Haha good :)  I didn't think that you were that radical :)

I agree, to fix the problem you have to know the root of the problem, the problem is that the root of this is unfixable for me at this time (I can't well go to his house and blame his parents, because they just don't care what their kids do...or think...

And I can't talk it over with him as I stated before because he would just reject everything I have to say, he's that kind of person, I know him.

However, I will in my life, always try to spread tolerance and understanding about Islam, and religion in general.  I have done a lot so far, being the only Muslim in my community, and for hundreds of miles.

I guess I kinda answered this with my above reply :) 

 Assalaam Alaiykum

-Omni

P.S.  I don't mind you hijacking the thread, tangents are the spice of life!

MRD,

when I suggested that you do some deep theological reading, you dismiss it as years and years of opinions and not much else.

i think if you sincerely tried doing some indepth reading you would not feel the same.  That is a simplistic view of a very complex subject area. 

My point regarding myself was not that I don't feel well read on the subject , but more that as a lay person of limited theological knowledge I can't take on the big minds in the area.

hey i do alot of reading on science too and would similarily say that I don't have the scientific credentials to take on big minds.

as to your mom.

she has a tumor that she is praying about.  You feel she is wasting her time i guess and now that nothing has changed you think she feels that she is still a sinner.  I know I am parphrasing here.

It is sad to me that your mom feels something she has done has created her cancer.  that she has a "sin" over her.  Perhaps that is just your take on it.

I would suggest that you ask for a pastoral visit from her minister.  Let them have the discussion of God, grace, and let someone with some knowledge help her.  that is what a good minister will do.  Ease her burden and support her on her life journey.

Lastpointe:

I will indeed look into reading some of the deep theological works you suggested.  You're right, I dismissed it too readily, based on preconceived notions. 

And now you're going to make me get much more candid that I'd ever intended here.  But hey, if CF can do it, so can I.  :-)  I apologize in advance if anyone takes offense, but I am just being honest, stating how I see things here.  I admit I could be wrong, and if I am, I sure wish someone would point out how and why with a convincing argument or explanation.

Regarding my mother, my concern was that she would have faith in God to deal with a medical issue.  In the end, she had the (non cancerous, it turns out) tumor removed by doctors.  But I was concerned at the time by her incredible disappointment that it hadn't shrunk through prayer, making me wonder where / when else she might turn to prayer (where there is no evidence of its efficacy) and put off proper medical care. 

Second, I was aghast at the level of denial she showed, that instead of saying "Hmmm, maybe prayers don't work after all." she immediately dismissed the possibility that the lack of a result could not be because prayer doesn't work, but instead determined it must be that she had not properly attoned for the sins in her life and therefore her God (whom she puts so much faioth in) had intentionally foresaken her.  What a terrible way to live, to imagine that He to whom you have devoted your entire being does not find you worthy.  Maybe she's right in her conclusion - maybe prayer does work, maybe there is a God, maybe he thinks she's got more atonement to do - but she arrived at that conclusion without applying any reason or logic, she out of hand dismissed the possibility that the lack of result might possibly be because prayer doesn't work.

So she's now going to let her religious convictions rule how she lives, and use her religious convictions to provide a pat explanation for everything?  Really?  To me, she's living in complete denial, and any peace or bliss she feels must be the same peace and bliss that someone who is drunk or delusional enjoys.  Sure, she's "happy".  But it is sad to me how closed-minded she has become (though she would tell you that becoming religious has made her so much more open-minded), and how she as forsaken the wonder of mystery that is life, to reduce it all to God's will and destiny.

As you can see, my mother is the ultimate reason I am here, and why I am wrestling with trying to understand what drives her.  And since she cannot explain it in any logical, reasoned way, I have to turn to others who maybe can.  I have been an atheist for almost 35 years, I can remember the day as a child that I decided that I could no longer swallow the even minimal level of religious rhetoric my mother had forced upon me.  But I was content to live anonymously atheistic and respect (even though I couldn't understand) the religious beliefs of others.  But after her mother died, my mother changed, like a light switch had been flicked, and I no longer recognized her. And then I could no longer could I sit back and just wander through life as an anonymous atheist.  It made me look into myself, and I discovered just how happy and content I was in my atheism.  How at peace I was, without even realizing it. 

You know, I'd been envious at first of the peace and happiness my mother seemed to have found in religion.  But the more intense she became, the more worried I became.  She believes every single word of the Bible is fact.  She believes we need the Bible to know what's right and wrong.  But when I point out the odd distasteful story in the Bible, she's quick to say "Oh, that story is from the Old Testament.  We don't believe that one."  And so, wait a minute, you're able to decide about what parts of the Bible are good and bad?  Then why do you need the Bible to tell you what's good and bad?

And then I realized why she's so happy.  She's delusional.  There's no other explanation.  She believes as fact things that she has no reason to belief as fact.  Plain and simple, that would be the basic definition of a delusion.  And with this realization I went back and examined pretty candidly my reasons for being an atheist, something I'd never really done before.  And lo and behold, I realized that I am the one truly at peace with this being my one and only go around, and not having to worry about working towards a reward or fearing punishment in the afterlife, and with being able to enjoy life and nature and everything else through the eyes or reason and logic.  I don't waste my time in prayer, or uttering Hail Mary's, or re-reading the same book over and over and over again.  I take life as it is - I enjoy it - I find wonder in it - I explore logic and reason and science to try to understand better the world around me - I'm a happy, peaseful, content guy these days.

But at the same time, all of this has made me wonder all the more, really wonder, what drives people in this day and age to hang onto and accept and embrace religious beliefs.  No one has ever been able to explain to me what they base their belief on, nor to explain why religion is anything more than just another superstition.  But we have abandoned almost all superstition as we have become more knowledgable, more enlightened as to the universe around us.  Why is this one hanging on?  Is there more to it? 

And I guess I am hoping that if someone can at least help me understand why the religious are religious, then perhaps I'll be able to once again look upon my mother and see the person I once knew.  Does that all make me a bad son, a bad person, whatever?  I don't know.  Nor is there much I can do about it.  I am trying to learn and understand in the best ways I know how. 

And I'm hoping you guys here at WonderCafe can help, because no where else have I been able to get anywhere near to the answers I am seeking.