Hi Xango: It all depends on how we define "consciousness."

If consciousness is the "IT Awareness" of being inseparably united with the cosmic totality, then consciousness is an innate property of the universe, and is indeed forever, because cosmic energy, in one form or another, is forever.

In Cosmic Consciousness,

Arminius

That seems to be the big question these days - is consciousness a product of and therefore dependent upon purely physical processes, or does consciousness exist in relationship with and  yet somehow independent of the physical world as we understand it?

There seems to be some evidence that consciousness in and of itself exerts force on the physical world:  for example, subatomic particles do not actually exist as particles until the observer interacts with them, and brain plasticity seems to indicate that the mind - consciousness - can act on the physical brain.

In our universe, the natural state of things is to always go from order to disorder, and yet somehow, complex, conscious life has emerged.  The way I interpret this is that there must be in the universe some force of Consciousness that is drawing the universe into ever increasing levels of complexity and higher levels of consciousness.  That's what I understand to be "God".   So I would say, yes, it exists independent of the physical world, and, yes, it continues after death.

Consciousness and quantum mechanics are fields that have been uduly seized by those who don't fully understand them (as much as either field can be understood).  Take for instance, the observer effect.  It does not actually have to be a conscious human observer.  Even an electron can act as an observer.

As to disorder and complexity, while it is true that on a cosmic scale things tend toward increased entropy, in various localities a decrease in entropy (ie complexity) can be seen.  Stars can be formed from gas clouds.  Molecules in primordial soup arrange themselves to form the building blocks of life.  If we look at examples of nature acting just as nature does and assign it some kind of universal consciousness to explain complexity, or the weirdness of QM, all we're really doing is putting a mystical-sounding patina on the concept of the supernatural God, reaching in and messing around with creation.

The difficulty with the mind/body dualism is that it is essentially a god of the gaps argument.  It's not even a particularly good one, as it ignores some of the most basic neurological science we have.  The mind has never been shown to be localized in someone's foot, or elbow.  If parts of the physical brain are damaged, drastic personality changes can occur.  Clearly the physical brain and the mind/consciousness are deeply related.  I don't think that precludes the idea of the soul, or of consciousness lasting beyond physical death, but it does make it harder to look at it dualistically.

Well, I'll absolutely own up not understanding physics, but, in a new book on quantum mechanics I just read, the author described the unconscious observer - say, an instrument of some sort - as entering into the same quantum state as the subatomic particle until a conscious observer interacts with the entire system.   His whole point was that it does indeed appear to be consciousness that impacts the existence of the particle, and not unconscious observation. 

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No it isn't.  It's understanding God as manifested and working through the natural order.  I'm no scientist, but my understanding is that there is witin science no naturalistic explanation for why life strives towards ever increasing complexity.  It's just my personal interpretation, anyway - just sharing it for what it's worth.

I don't think personality and consciousness are the same thing.  Consciousness is deeper than personality.

If consciousness survives the death of the physical body, there must be some element of dualism - some way in which consciousness encompasses and yet transcends the brain, right? 

Is consciousness like light a duality ... sometimes like this and sometimes like that? Odd perspective ... unless you could imagine the view from the significant other's shoes?

Is this like physical and metaphysical charteristics combined? Consider that persona is described by WEBSTER as a character exhibited by something ... even unseen idioms?

Is the world truly just a stage in the infinite story that we tend to think we have a grip of .. when the evidence is that we couldn't stand the whole truth? Would it just incinerate a mortal mind? The Furies above in all their grand sum, seem to have a sense of humours ... bet' noir ... ID's all a dark enigma, joke, puzzle to a' muse the infinitely confined ... Pan Aura Ramah!

And when the bits are recovered: "What did you see my child?" after all a pure Love is quite blind if you think about ID!

Prodigal Roues flowering in the shadow with wee bits of light in the cosmos ... the alternate portion ... pure awareness? It's across the medium, that mean lien in space!

I appreciate the comments. I think consciousness is pretty mysterious. It's something that we all share, but it seems connected to our individual selves, but not necessarily our bodies. Yet we all experience it in the same way and it seems bigger than our individual minds/personalities. It can watch what I'm thinking and feeling, but isn't the same as those thoughts and feelings. I wouldn't call it God though, as it seems limited and connected to "me." It's hard to observe, because it's the observer. Maybe this is why a basic understanding of quantum theory helps us make some sense of what's going on?

Buddhism and Hinduism in particular seem to have devoted a lot of thought to the question of consciousness. Is there a Christian understanding of it?

 Conciousness seems to exist on several levels. Even plants display an elemenrary awareness and trees can show 'distress'. Animals of course display a much higher level of consciousness. Human beings are not only self aware but can also display empathy and compassion for others. There is an ancient bagan notion that was taken up to a certain extent in early Christianity that what makes us different from and more than the animals is that we contain a spark of the divine. The mystics teach us that to search for God we must search within ourselves for that spark.

Back in the 1950's the Jesuit priest and paleontologist Pere Tielhard DeChardin wrote a book in which he attempted to reconcile evolution and theology. It is called "The Phenomenon of Man". He posits that intelligence and consciousness are tied to the complexity of the entity starting with elementary particles and on up. For example, an atom would have more consciousness than its component protons, neutrons and electrons. At the atomic and molecular level the degree of consciousness is still too small to detect. He also suggests certain critical ‘quantum jumps’ like when a very complex hydrocarbon molecule becomes a living cell. To cut to the chase, he suggests an "Omega Point" when humanity is so linked that the planet itself becomes a living organism of a higher order. The comparison is made to a beehive. The individual bees display a low order of intelligence and consciousness but when we consider that of the hive as a whole it is orders of magnitude above that of its components. The hive itself behaves as an intelligent and conscious entity. Is this the fate of humanity? Is it possible that the internet itself might be the very sort of linkage by which such a quantum leap might be facilitated? Are we approaching Tielhard's Omega Point?

Hi JRT:

I think we are reaching Teilhard's Omega point inasmuch as we are becoming aware of being synthesis. The awareness of non-duality as the actual state of being.

I think of consciousness not as something biological or physiological, but as the basic is-ness of being: the state of synthesis. It is not so much the Omega point but the sum of Alpha and Omega: Ø, or GØD.

We humans are trying to apprehend reality as analytically thinking organisms, via logic. We, as a species, are closer than ever to the analytical realization that reality actually is in a state of synthesis, and that the underlying cosmic intelligence is an intelligence of synthesis. The Cosmic Consciousness that mystics talk about is the cosmic synthesis that they feel and experience.

This type of talk in the 'cafe always impresses me. It's so much more productive then arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

I like the "Omega Point" concept JRT. As Arminius implies, it's a lot like the panentheistic or the unitheism view of RevLindsayKing  that although we are all part and parcel of something bigger and something more aware than we are as individuals, we also possess the potential to raise our awareness towards that something. Whether we call that something God, the Heavenly Wo/Man, or some sort of Planetary or Solar Unified Whole, it doesn't really matter, It just Is.

The Tibetan says that this thing we call Consciousness is a result of the union of Spirit at one end of the spectrum and Matter at the other end. He sees these two ends as polar opposites, with Soul or Consciousness as the intermediate between the two. Let me quote from "A Treatise on Cosmic Fire":

These are, I think, great thoughts, and lofty as they may be, we should reach for the sky and imagine ourselves larger and more aware than we think we are.

"Having pervaded this entire universe with a fragment of Myself, I remain" - Krishna, speaking in terms of the Transcendent Logos

Infinite Syntax:

Humbling for the sense of strangeness in denial of infinite as just a concept?

Then who would heaven be for if we don't like an immortal expansiveness? De-lightful enigma of unbounded diversity!

Would a Pious soul entertain that or say don't go there in a sense of agoraphobia ... openess to a significant other?

Go wah wit' yah!

Are dogs conscious of themselves?  Could they live/survive without it?  Is our level of consciousness simply more complex due to the greater complexity of our brains?

There's been some interesting discoveries on "Mirror Neurons".........maybe Google that.

Consciousness is a sh#tload of electrical impulses.  Now, eat your tofu, do your yoga...and move on. :)

Might want to look at trans cranial magentic stimulation studies done in the past 30 years. You can actually physically induce 'religous consciousness' by applying an EM field to the temporal regions of the brain.

Who needs god? Just put on a wired football helmet and press the green button. 

If God is infinite desire ... and it is in a foot Ba'aL helmet:

perhaps I've heard everything?

Is that close to heaven, a stimulated field upon the brane ...

Are we there yet?

Then some do not get a clue regarding field theory, string mechanics and louping everything together ... they just destroy all aspects of thinking entities as if this would allow them control. They don't know the halve Ovid because they claim in metaphor: "Not to see the Light!"

Neither soul or it's driving force is present ... pure thermodynamic logic ... the stuff of deism ... God can be reasoned with ... have you ever dealt with a fired la Dei? Then perhaps you don't believe in Love either!

It's really not all that deep. consciousness is simply what you get from the dictionary. But the occult has taken it and applied it to a spiritual doctrine. They say it is ones infinitive thoughts released and existing in the cosmos. They could not know that. because they are only scientist and occultist. First know that it's impossible for the universe to control our fate in any way. the universe is not god. it is a creation of god's. The bible states that in the last days mankind will worship the creation more than the creator which is abominable sin at its worst. It is only being done because most fear the doctrine of god because god has promised Judgement will come upon the earth.

However. Jesus died giving us a way to be on the right side of judgement. This doctrine is being rejected because in it, is the description of sin. all of the things that we should not do in order to obtain salvation. what most don't know is, Jesus died so that when we faulter in our flesh, If we believe in the gift of grace, ( undeserved favor) that has been given to us from his death on the cross, all we would have to do is call our sin what it is, which is sin, regardless to what type, and just repent. in the name of jesus christ. But the pride of man is the enemy of god. they don't like to repent or apologize for their wickedness.  the wisdom here is. In order to repent for a sin. we must call it what it is. which causes us to be honest about our condition and our need for the teachings of christ. Then we simply release our faith to his sacrifice. understanding that yes, it was all about us. all about you. At that point you are made free. free from the condemnation of that sin. Free to work through that problem of sin by praying and reading the word and worship. until that sin moves from your life. Its a process. Some sins leave quickly. Some are what the bible refers to as strongholds. Demon spirits that enter your mind taking control of your actions, then bringing you into captivity of that specific sin. If you don't want something. you first take a position that it is not good. Well it works this way when you no longer want sin in your life. You begain to launch all out war against it. No more justifing or condoning what you do. And not being or feeling condemned by the fact that you've done it. But calling it out and allowing god to help you with it. Going beyond human pride and with all humility, learning to trust god with your problems. This builds a great relationship with god. which takes us from the coldness of religion. And allow us to draw closer to him that has made us. This higher consciousness teaches that there is no right no wrong its all relative. And that you are god, You decide if its right or wrong. This is wicked. The same people that are teaching this doctrine. if you would for example see their reactions in the case that someone stole their car. or killed there child god forbide. Then all of a sudden they would know what right and wrong is. this doctrine is to discredit the holy scripture,which bible prophecy said these doctrines would come and fool the very elect of god's people. When we humble ourselves and say. Lord I know I make mistakes. I Know I have sin. So let your son jesus christ come into my heart and begain the process of making me new in my ways. teach me humility and love peace and wisdom, cover me with your grace in the name of jesus. This prayer puts us outside of the wicked pride of man. Therefore beware of the new-aged doctrine of higher consciousness. We only need repentance in the name of jesus christ and the precious holy spirit to come to our best in this life and the life after. And if you should fall after you have accepted christ. The bible says repent quickly and your sins will be as far from you as the east is from the west. Then move on. Therefore all we really need to do is, get under the umbrella of grace, which has been given  to us by the sacrifice of christ jesus. And if you could believe that, you will recieve that. The scripture says we are saved by faith we obtain grace. translation: we are saved by daring to believe what we cannot see we obtain undeserved favor. another scripture says. the law(law of moses from the old testament) was made so perfect, no man can live by it. For this reason I give you christ. you can find the complete teaching on this topic in the book of Galatians chapters 2 and 3. when they were questioning if they could simply get circumcised to become pure in the sight of god. Then the knowledge of the law and moses vs grace was given. This is mindblowing. If it were not for the cross, none would be fit to stand before god. sounds to good to be true. sounds to easy. scripture says those that jesus sets free are free indeed. also it says, there is therefore no condemnation in christ Jesus. Many have it twisted. the bible says jesus did not come to judge the world but to save it. God will judge whether we believe in judgement or not. There will be judgement. And many of us can see it or feel it coming. But why fear it when there is a solution that brings peace and happiness, joy and all the things that many of us long for. The book of James. We cannot rewrite the order of god.We conclude that there are millions of galaxies, then boast because we can name a few stars. where is the intelligence in that.There is none.Just pride and disobedience 

How could we not see the need for god. We can list all of mans failures in our society, then we blame god, God kept our will in tact. Yet we keep choosing wickedness then blaming him. Raping babies, Greedy governments oppressing the masses, stealing, murder, creating chemicals and terrible substances that pollute our air and water as well as our destroying our ozone. then we blame god. the bible speaks against destruction, yet man destroys almost everything they touch and they justify it. Then we curse god, It's wicked foolishness. He is god and the earth is his house. and he has house rules. Mankind is breaking every one of them. So we should be thanking him for his mercy, for giving us a way out. We should be thanking god for Jesus. We should be thanking him for grace. Really. Be blessed.  I Love you.... Peace

Athiesto. You'll be alright. If your athiest, why would my position bother you. Maybe your into the occult or possibly satanist. There are lots of so called athiest that can't stand to hear about jesus. But its ok for you to believe that your consciousness is floating around in the cosmos. God be with you. I'm just gonna love you. God loves you. Can all things be truth? can all men be the natural father to the same child? We do come from a truth. And no, Its not an ape.Apes still exist as such. why fight with the air? God is love, His house is the planet in which we live. His word the holy scriptures are his house rules. what are we really fighting about? The pride of mankind is surely the enemy of god....I love you..Find peace

So because he's an atheist that means he's probably an occultist or a satanist? You're an idiot.

No, we're OK with hearing about Jesus. Just as long as you don't actually believe that what happened in the Bible is historical fact. It's kind of not accepted to be historical by scholars.

Creepy...

No shit Sherlock. Evolutionary biologists don't believe we evolved from apes. The theory says that we evolved from a common ancestor that we share with the apes. They didn't exist way back then either. Take a course before you decide you know what you're talking about.

We could ask you the same question.

All I see here is thoughts stated as fact but not supported by logic or evidence. Maybe you should give us an actual reason to believe that what you say is true.

Ton tons provide a pretty good shelter if you gut them first. They're a poor source of intelligent discussion though.

LL&P

Spock

This might help to explain:

-- Lowest, or slowest in vibration: EARTH PLANE = Physical

-- First Astral or Psychic Plane = Underworld/ or Psychic Plane

-- Second Astral, Psychic Plane = Separation - Emotion - Desire

-- First Mental Plane = Paradise - Rest

-- Second Mental Plane = Understanding

-- Third Mental Plane = Intuition

-- First Spiritual Plane = Love and Intuition

-- Second Spiritual Plane = Love, Wisdom and Power (3 in 1)

-- Doorway to the Infinite Intelligence = Divine or Christ Consciousness - no limit

-------------

Your body and your brain are instruments which you use just as your mind is also an instrument that you use. You recognize that these are instruments, yet they are one -- Spirit, Soul and Body: Spirit, Mind and Brain. One is the complement of the other. Spirit the first cause, the three as the Trinity in man. Life organizes the tissue structures, life organizes the atoms and uses the cells of the organs and complete body for its own self-expression. We will one day leave the physical body and we will carry with us our experiences gained in the physical plane, the brain and the nervous system we leave behind. But there is an interpenetrating Substance in which exists the ethereal brain cells, which are invisible to you at present but will go with your ethereal body.

There are definite planes of consciousness vibrating at different rates of vibration which have been created for our universal experience by the Infinite. You will react to things external to yourselves just as you are reacting to them now, when you leave the physical body. These reactions are all registered in your mind. You take your mind with you, it is part of the Soul structure which lives after the so-called death. Then you will remember your loved ones and no doubt you will make every effort to help them. How many of our loved ones now are trying to make us perceive the higher truths?

from "Spiritual and Mental Healing" by Murdo MacDonald-Bayne

goldie, I see a lot of scientific terms in those paragraphs there, but none of the information you've provided is actually scientifically accepted. This MacDonald-Bayne guy seems to just be writing about his untested and unsupported speculations about how the universe works and is just randomly throwing scientific words in to make it sound intelligent. However, it's quite obvious this guy has no scientific training. Don't take this guy seriously, he doesn't know what he's talking about.

a) Have any of the things he has said in this exerpt been empirically tested? If not then his words hold no authority. He is just making stuff up as he goes and doesn't care enough to make sure he is right. If he doesn't care enough to test his hypotheses then he's not worth listening to.

b) Is he up-to-date on scientific theories? Quite obviously he isn't. The latest news from the neuroscience front is that dualism is false and that the mind is quite literally the culmination of all of the brain's physical processes. The evidence is undeniable. Case studies of brain-damaged people, MRI and fMRI examinations, PET examinations, lesionary/electro-stimulus experiments, etc. have all been used to demonstrate that the mind is physical: the electrochemical interactions between firing neurons.

c) Do we listen to everything someone says just because they were able to get a publishing deal on their book? No. When we read other peoples' work, we have to be critical thinkers. We should try our best to test the theories of other people for ourselves. Blind faith has never done any good for anyone (except the person behind the curtain who is asking for the faith).

Just thought this should be said.

Ah, critical thinking about science ... observation a cool vision!

What does it take to warm a cool vision ... some faint desire ... motivation from a mystical other dimension?

Some people get stuck on the Ptolemies ... the extremes ... frozen clear thoughts or burning passions ... is there a medium ... a means to the end of this nonsense ... a realm of hate for the other's words ... a resource that everyone could learn from if we listened carefully and filtered? In ontological sense we build walls ... sects a vision of variability in creation ... divining the sole mind of pure passion ... Love. Just an afterthought to the Primal ID! Some just can't get beyond ID for IT that's myth in the form of a story with buried truths ... things that can't be told to a firm man that canot and will not change ... lesson for the spiritual beast ... the mind of God in initiation ... inside Dan's in rare space ... ether of th' O? Either wah a hollow space in the beginning ... hungry to know if you can find the gate ... in an ugly beast ... humpy like a Ka millen ... just a grinding what has to be passed through that fine veil/vale/brea'n in the watery spot ... with th'ephtha'de la Deis!

Dais in nah giggle, that's the de viled in the stoic attempting to escape!