qwerty's picture

qwerty

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What Does This Mean?

Not, "What is the meaning of this?" but rather "What does this mean?" The pictures are innocuous enough but I had a hard time loking at them. I felt a sort of revulsion mixed with curiosity ... hope cheek by jowl with despair.

What does this mean?

 

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/04/06/magazine/06-pieter-hugo-rw...

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Jim Kenney's picture

Jim Kenney

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Dramatic images.

Life is stronger than death; real life requires letting go of those things that take away from life (guilt, anger, hate, fear) and holding on to those things that add to life.

 

One thing missing from our Truth and Reconciliation process is genuine remorse and confession and asking for pardon by leaders and others.

revjohn's picture

revjohn

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Hi qwerty,

 

qwerty wrote:

What does this mean?

 

That you have been scandalized by grace.

 

I read the stories and I cannot imagine getting that close to anyone who has harmed me that way.  I simply would not trust myself to not give in to my hurt and my pain and seek to even scores.

 

The images still evoke the nightmares which still terrorize both the perpetrator and the victim.

 

Still, there they are.  Not staring daggers, not communicating victory in anyway, not looking like anyone is ready to flee to the hills.  Broken individuals who have now made peace with one another to the degree that they will be seen in the presence of the other.

 

I expect we need there to be much more anguish and punishment.  We are so dialed into justice (or what we mistake for it) that we have no time for mercy and the humility so evident in both individuals provides a stench we cannot tolerate.

 

Grace has come to this jungle which once ran red with blood.

 

And it overwhelms us.

 

How can such evil be forgiven?

 

Something must be wrong eh?

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

Kimmio's picture

Kimmio

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Thank you for this article. Why did you feel despair, qwerty, I'm wondering? I think these are beautiful examples of how deep forgiveness can go. I think of how much I hold onto small stuff unawares at times- how many go to physchotherapy because of their leftover issues with their parents, etc. - over relatively minor things often (like "he favoured my brother and I didn't get as much attention, stuff___. My mother was too critical, etc." small potatoes.)- in our entitled culture (I guess that's where I despair, at how entitled we are and are blind to it). Whereas, these people have endured devestating violence and are able to forgive enough to reform new bonds in community even with the perpetrators directly. It's amazing, really. These are the seeds of real peace. Imagine if all nations thought like this, too.

Beloved's picture

Beloved

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I found some of the pictures also hard to look at.   Most people would not be able to be in the same room, building, town, as someone who had hurt them so badly, let alone be next to them or touch them or be photographed with them.

 

Not only did they forgive, some of them allowed the persons to enter into their lives - as in many of those seeking forgiveness offered their help and service to those they have hurt.

 

I wondered if there was any kind of a cultural difference involved that I was not aware of?

 

I got a sense that those who had harmed and sought forgiveness were genuine in their sorrow for what they had done.

 

 

qwerty's picture

qwerty

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Well Kimmio, I did say I saw hope ... but it was cheek by jowl with despair.  I know that if it is true (and not public relations) and the forgiveness is true etc ... then this is a sign of great hope. On the other hand these people lived as neighbours once before and then they killed their neighbours. Are they better friends now than they were before? Are the pictures posed for maximum effect? Can we really believe it? Is it a public relations exercise. After all if one "confesses" they let you out of jail. From whence does the desire to forgive spring? That's the big job isn't it.  "I killed your mother. Sorry." ... that's easy. Forgiveness is hard. Is the forgiveness coming because that is what the community (officially or unofficially) wants and expects? Is forgiveness any less real if it does not come from the victim's own idea.

 

I have to say that I think Rev John has it pretty well right in his comments.  I still haven't "really" looked at these pictures.  I find them disturbing.  I don't see much there besides pain and disaster. I see people living in a vacuum.  I feel a silence. I don't see anticipation for life, I see waiting for it to be over. I feel heartsick for the people. Maybe the people are so drained they do not have the energy to be or remain angry? After all what could the rest of their lives be after the events of  1994? What can you lose after you've lost everything?

Kimmio's picture

Kimmio

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I saw the pain in their faces, too.

Pinga's picture

Pinga

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qwerty wrote:

 I know that if it is true (and not public relations)

One of my fears.

 

qwerty wrote:

and the forgiveness is true etc ... then this is a sign of great hope. On the other hand these people lived as neighbours once before and then they killed their neighbours. Are they better friends now than they were before? Are the pictures posed for maximum effect? Can we really believe it? Is it a public relations exercise.

 

How do you have trust, or do you live in despair knowing they could do it to you again. Do you forgive, because there is no option, but to let the person in power be forgiven, so you get the house, the hope, the photo.

qwerty wrote:
After all if one "confesses" they let you out of jail.

Yeah, that one jumped out at me.

 

qwerty wrote:

From whence does the desire to forgive spring? That's the big job isn't it.  "I killed your mother. Sorry." ... that's easy. Forgiveness is hard. Is the forgiveness coming because that is what the community (officially or unofficially) wants and expects? Is forgiveness any less real if it does not come from the victim's own idea.

 

I have to say that I think Rev John has it pretty well right in his comments.  I still haven't "really" looked at these pictures.  I find them disturbing.  I don't see much there besides pain and disaster. I see people living in a vacuum.  I feel a silence. I don't see anticipation for life, I see waiting for it to be over. I feel heartsick for the people. Maybe the people are so drained they do not have the energy to be or remain angry? After all what could the rest of their lives be after the events of  1994? What can you lose after you've lost everything?

 

I don't know...similair thoughts and concerns though.  Thanks for naming it.

Kimmio's picture

Kimmio

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I want it to be true.

stardust's picture

stardust

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My mind goes somewhat  blank. I can't deal too well emotionally with Rwanda and the horrendous stories that have come from there, Gen. Delaire....sp...?  He has been spreaking up recently on other perceived or possible  genocides in the present time.

 

I'm thinking about what poverty and desperation can do to some people i.e. the victims in their acceptance of these beasts. I consider myself to be a forgiving person but there are exceptions regarding how far I'm willing to go. 

Kimmio's picture

Kimmio

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I don't think I could, personally. I can't even imagine being in a situation to have that choice before me. That's why, if this is true, it's amazing. I am thinking now of the Amish family who forgave the murders of schoolchildren in their community and welcomed the murderers parents into the community. Other stories of deep forgiveness where there was no ultimatum attached. I also think about whole nations and their inability to forgive leading to more wars popping up down the road because the hatred is so deep rooted and was never reconcilled. I don't think that does the world any good.

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stardust

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Women paved the way  for reconciliation.

 

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/04/05/rwanda-women-paved-way-reconciliation/unDRUAxjGSMr13eYcK85OM/story.html

 

Edit: Trying to make the link live:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/04/05/rwanda-women-paved-way-rec...

 

 

 

 

 

 

WaterBuoy's picture

WaterBuoy

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Imagine people that can repeat attrocities day after day without a thought over it!

 

Such are those untouched by the pure emotion of sending people off to a hell where they wouldn't know any better ... alas a shadow of a pious judgement that goes round and round in the teleological system that seeks ends to god ...

 

Kinda makes you wonder about the d'ontological style where you just let it all be without any sense of becoming anything different ... too much like change to improve on the crap we're in right? That's un-thinkable Molly Brown ... and thus perhaps the browned off nature of the unconscious psyche ... sort of numbed to brutal actions. Statistics say that 85-95% or more don't wish to know of this stuff ... like authority alwasy knows best and is never corrupt ... infallible? Some kind of Cosmological trick! Tends to make me humble to the point of believing in underlying forces that are balances as de duce ... Caduces as paired off? Such is the dream of Elisha in a monotheistic dimension ... to see both sides one has to shy away from polity, extremes! Some wobbling may be required once supported on the thin fabric ... not a Ka-bull (Kat-aurus act in catharsis) just a thread of a clue for mortals to figure upon ... they really don't see the complexity in LOGOS! God is bigger than any faith ... all encompassing ... something mortals miss as it it easier to forget and deny than learn profound things ...

dreamerman's picture

dreamerman

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Here is another idea that popped into my mind. Did Judas do the honorable thing by commiting suicide? Was he so overcome with remorse and guilt that he could not live with himself? Now to get back to those who were responsible for the Rawanda atrocities and engaged in some of the most vile acts would suicide be an act of repentance? I know it won't bring back loved ones who were killed but at least they could never do it again.

Arminius's picture

Arminius

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I watched the special on the Rwanda genocide on CBC's The Passionate Eye.

 

Yes, reconciliation has to happen one person at a time.

 

The cause for the Rwanda genocide probably goes right back to the Belgian colonizers, who classified one tribe as superior, hired them as preferred workers and civll servants, and thus started a deep tribal divide and a two-tiered society.

 

Too bad that a focused Truth and Reconciliation effort did not happen after the Second World War in Germany. It would have been good for the perpetrators of the Holocaust, as well as for all German people, to realize that the European Jews weren't subhuman but real flesh, blood and soul people, and face and own up to the horrors of the Holocaust.

 

 

chansen's picture

chansen

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Arm, that post hit me like a ton of bricks. Good point.

 

revjohn's picture

revjohn

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Hi Arminius,

 

Arminius wrote:

Too bad that a focused Truth and Reconciliation effort did not happen after the Second World War in Germany. It would have been good for the perpetrators of the Holocaust, as well as for all German people, to realize that the European Jews weren't subhuman but real flesh, blood and soul people, and face and own up to the horrors of the Holocaust.

 

Beyond that it would have been useful for those of us described as the "Allies" to see that those described as the "Axis" were in many ways people not so different from ourselves.  Remember the fears of a unified Germany just after the Wall came down?

 

Why should we fear Germany?  Some one innocently asks.

 

Two world wars.  Is the fearful and whispered reply.

 

We simply shifted the goal posts between we and they.  Interestingly Canada was hostile towards Jewish immigrants prior to WW2 whereas Germans immigrated quite freely.  After WW2 we still weren't thrilled with Jews, we just used them to justify a mistrust and hatred for Germans.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

 

 

WaterBuoy's picture

WaterBuoy

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Does anybody have any idea how far back the tensions in Germany go and why?

 

How easy it is to ignore the past when out belief is set on the present only ... without any question as to how, when, where and why, not to mention by who and what. In a recent bible study that hovered about the strange tendancy to keep a group of people in the dark about all things, the question of Shadow or keeping people away from sacred things is an interesting parable on the matter of the Shadow knows ... or the theory of hiero gamma ... perhaps BIG JOHN dressed in Black!

 

And Jaqob wrestled with this dark character on the "other side" ... otherside of what? Gabriel was data Eyore icon? Undersstanding these things is not good it is said ... a strange comment considering it is not what you know that kills yah ...

 

Perhaps it was just a flighty unknown persona ... UFO? Are you too amazed at what we are satisfied not knowing given the capacity of the soma provided for us to awaken? What's a soma and is it elastic when stretched? Does it diminish when its authority is threatened by growing siblings? Is it an inde grail sort of thing that'is not like a number but should be considered in quality? Odd thing to say the least ... sort of reminds be of solas-bode, or something near dead or Flatliner ... like La Zaerious contemplation ... out there!

 

 

Jim Kenney's picture

Jim Kenney

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There are stories from time to time of people who have reconciled with the murderers of their family members in Canada and the US.  800,000 people were murdered. A few of the murderers are reconciled, more or less, with the families of their victims.  This is where we discover genuine freedom, freedom from the emotional burden of trauma, being able to see and know what is helpful to one's futru.

 

On the ladder to spiritual liberation, fairness and justice are about mid-way.

WaterBuoy's picture

WaterBuoy

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Central issue between fear and anger and curiosity and Joey on the Myers-Briggs construct ...

 

This is about psychology ... something that we'd rather not studied as it gets too close to home ... hommoe?

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