well yeah, if it gets mentioned in your church then BLAMMO, your tax exempt status gets taken away...not to mention your pay-per-view :3

Regardless of whether you're deploying an army or an elite squad of SEALs backed up by drones, the use of force in international relations is a social justice issue and should be tackled by churches. It doesn't need to be specifically mentioned in scripture. Welfare programs and international aid aren't, either, but many mainstream churches support them.

Now, I'll concede that using targeted covert ops will likely mean fewer body bags coming home (one of the reasons I think Obama likes using covert ops so much) and lower rates of "collateral damage" (God, I hate that term). They also require fewer troops and smaller amounts of equipment so can be continued even if the Pentagon's belt gets seriously tightened (vs. big ticket programs like the F-35 and shipbuilding that will be heavily scrutinized in any budget debate). That makes them more politically palatable for the Americans (and Canadians, since I can see Harper embracing this doctrine as well).

In the end, though, it's still one country using it's military superiority to enforce its notion of right and wrong and we need to be opposing that.

From the UU side, the UUA has been publicly active in opposing US military operations over the past few years and in encouraging non-violent resolutions to problems. UUs have supported conscientious objectors trying to escape service in the war, organized and joined anti-war protests, and encouraged discussion on peace issues. They are encouraging non-military solutions in places like Iran and North Korea and protesting any suggestion of military action on those fronts. The general UU stand on peace can be found in this statement from 2010:

http://www.uua.org/statements/statements/13394.shtml

Mendalla

i just came across this -- Molleindustria has made another of their games -- they specialize in political statement games.  in this one, you play the role of a robotic drone pilot :3

 :(

Mendalla, just wondering....is UU taking any action of solidarity with other churches and faith groups? I am wondering, because unfortunately, many people don't even know who the UU church is...I mean no offense by that, because I know they do a lot of work on social action and peace...just stating a perception...but if the circle can be drawn as wide as possible...even involving other peace and social action groups outside of the churches, that would be more effective. Is that something you could encourage? If I were you I'd try to get that going...talk to everyone in your social action committee, with your minister, etc. 

I personally think the churches and other faith groups of conscience about this crisis should go "all in" and not worry about the prospect of financial losses at this point ..worry about that later...because the issue is far more important than that...but that's a tough sell.

We work closely with other faith groups on various issues, including the United Church here and the United Church of Christ in the States. On peace issues, we've even worked with Catholics and some more conservative Protestants, but obviously part company with them on women's issues, LGBTQ issues, and so on. Because we are based on principles and our social action is rooted in those principles rather than specific beliefs, it's fairly easy for us to work with others as long as there is some common ground on the issue at hand.

My own fellowship participates in interfaith activities in London including peace demonstrations, a church service during PRIDE, a local alliance for the provision of social services (e.g. a satellite food bank) in our neighbourhood. We've also allied with the Muslims (London has a very large and active Muslim community) against Islamophobia.

Mendalla

Such action does happen - on a very individual basis - in some churches.

However, many churches had special services devoted to the  crime of 9/11. I cannot remember hearing of any special services which put the slaughter in Guatemala, for example, into a Christian perspective. I have never heard of any that dealt with the issue of Canadian mining companies in places like Guatemala and Congo.

When interest is shown, it is generally not allowed to intrude on the regular worship service.

I'm not asking the clergy to crusade. I am suggesting that questions of moral behaviour should be adressed in the context of today, and not of 2000 years ago.

That's not my experience of UCC at my church, but it's a big urban church. We have a group involved in Guatemala. As for modern context in general,  I also attended the Epiphany Conference in Victoria with Marcus Borg speaking essentially about Christian language, and interpreting it in such a way that we learn about it's relevance 2000 years ago, to then get a clearer picture of how to look at it in the context of today.  Elizabeth May also gave another lecture discussing current relevant issues. People from across the country attended the conference.

That's great! I get the feeling that much of the time the UU tackles these issues promptly and head on...not as much red-tape as UCC maybe? Another thing is that many of the sermons themselves talk directly about social justice issues/ environmental issues, and invite guest speakers to speak directly about urgent issues it in their Sunday services (I recall greeenpeace one time I went), much like a iniversity lecture,not just indirectly/ metaphorically. One of the advantages I found to UU...again ,though, depending on what one comes to church for. These days though, I think the pressing issues should probably be discussed more directly.

Are you suggesting that worship services should be social action meetings? Because I don't think even most UUs see it that way. We will do services focussed on specfic issues (we had some Falun Gong members speak at a service last year, for instance), but a service is not the best forum for it because it's not the point of worship.  Worship is about broader, more fundamental values that inform our social action. It's about providing a context for the social action by celebrating and promoting the values (in the UU case, our principles) that underlie the social justice and other activities of the church. Planning and carrying out social action will generally be dealt in other meetings and gatherings.

For instance, on February 26, I'm doing a service about Water as one of the four fundamental elements. It's not a science lesson, obviously, but looking at the spiritual ideas and images that can or have been drawn from water (I've done the same for Air, and will do Earth and Fire in time). I'm not going to issue a clarion call for action on the many environmental issues around water, but I will show how the spiritual approach to water that I'm presenting informs and encourages personal and collective environmental responsibility around water. If that then leads to further discussion and action within the congregation, so be it, but that's not part or even the point of the service. Rather it's part of the response to the values being upheld and celebrated in the service.

If I wanted direct social action without the spiritual exploration and worship, I wouldn't go to a church. There are groups for that.

All IMHO, of course.

Mendalla

To add, I remember UU's Earth Day service I went to...a mix of various scriptural reference, and then a seperate discussion by one of the former founders of greenpeace discussing the issues head on. It was more heavily weighted to the direct discussion though, in that experience at least, Which sometimes is necessary while you've got everyone's attention in one place. Right now, very much so I think.

Being congregational, with really only two levels of governance (congregations and national bodies like UUA and CUC), I guess there is less red tape. Congregations are directly represented at the national meetings, not indirectly through a presbytery or conference. Congregations are quite free to choose and tackle whatever issues inspire and interest them locally. CUC and UUA will provide guidance and can issue statements on issues of general concern like that peace statement. Given that democracy is one of our principles, though, such statements ultimately need to pass at the national assemblies (which the UUA peace statement did, and CUC frequently does the same with various social responsibility issues in Canada) where congregational representatives can vote on them.  Therefore the statements of bodies like CUC generally tend to set out the accepted consensus position, not a definite plan that all must follow. Each congregation still needs to decide whether and how to implement the statement's position locally.

Mendalla

One area we've tackled in services a couple times is food through bringing in staff from the USC Canada's food grains program. The Unitarian Service Committee is separate from the CUC and not governed by it, but is widely supported by UUs in Canada and was founded by Unitarians (it predates the merger with Universalism, hence the Unitarian, rather than UU).

Mendalla

Mendalla,

Here's some nonsense for you on water. Here in NB and again with a friend in Pennsylvania where Fracking is a big issue because of the potential damage to water resource.

The funny part is there are means of rectifying this issue and making the effluent watr's cleaner than the source water ... for costs that are not that high. The problem is that anything that interfere's with profit is not considered positive in the ecco nomic issue ... and we couldn't have a negative thought ... would reek of the dark prophet ... god bless the myth O'Logical form ... depth of thinking? Zeta potential is the factor we fool around with to heal water ... has great potential in the realm of Herme's ... the well-whetted seal of a mind deep 6'D ... unavailable to the industrial soul as iron-ick-ly hammered out ...

I've been approached by a minor group that wishes to use the technology ... but excuse my negativity ... when I worked in the field it was amazing the population that denied it was even applicable though I proved it time and time again ... I was told I was crazy ... so there I sit as classified out of my Box ... it is shocking ... excuse the thinking devil ...

from a file I titled myth o'logical -tree that's lost ... cut down bi monothiest emotions?

Zae Tae Factor …

Choqan, or just ζ dah 6’th let Eire …

Providing 620⁰ or two rung Circus …

Parsed deuces, or entities in de Dan’s …

Of the slippery alpha bit out of ION’η seize Ur, ferret ick-lye speaking …

Hermes Seal as Hermetic, waters overhead ET’aL!

Primary force under foot …

To dampen the pas ION’s …

The way they’re often over heated!

Alum ι dumb’s grand in the coagulation …

As energetic beginnings of the triad of 4’c!

If the primary 6 is balanced …

The point of the 7’th Eris as Lameth …

Le fugal sense of an expansive point of intellect; Ba Th’Chi Ba …

Some data and information absorbed as mire psyche …

Cloud’n the waters of hermeneutic observation …

As’ whetted entity, prior to learning …

About decision-maqon (space) that will allow …

4-Vast reactions from the emotional’s Ide …

Making up the fore winds according to Number’s 2 …

De deuce in the Pentateuch, of the third hand theme …

Levite a’cuss of mire theory of turbidity …

Permutations of dissonance, extended into larger dimensions …

In the mind related to fate-ι-sues!

Dark but otherwise clear on purpose they don’t understand …

Butte wha Tae ‘elle phoqah IT …

Confuse the issue …

And inept toon will RIP’eL out …

Alexis as genre of the book on highered wad’s …

Leaving nothing but dry gulch …

For geist cows; spooky cattle …

Alien beasts of bier’n!

That’s bairn in Celtic myth of child of emotions …

Against, or versus, child of intelligence that …

Should’ve known better if they din’T …

Wish the knight disturbed as resting Law’ duff the realm …

As heh ruled the vacant Zea!

Can mortal find God anywhere?

Only if he Karries the need to look for ET …

As upstanding Cos!

Alternate to empty th’aught processing sic Eros …

Dream, of puddled mind in imaginary fields, Irrational Nos.

Surrounding the old man in the Mont-aignist perspective …

As heh looked intuit …

With spectacular, sensationalism of blown brae’Nz out …

In mental-emotional storm!

Brae’n-like perturbations of chance …

‘V encountering Mariah …

Anne awesome wind in the realm of the void …

As delightful in the dark, to Muses …

As the wee intruder was buried there in a Zea of Semites …

Them’s embers of sum thing Yetij calm …

But presently obscured in the unconscious Ide …

Or the totally denied fraction …

Of sum other sects of the soul as laid down under the mortal hoer Zoan, we’ve yea Tu Zea as frothy rime!

Graeme,

I think we've derailed your thread and I'm sorry for that. Kimmio and I have clearly had different experiences vis a vis churches and social action than you have. I do, in fact, agree that there are churches, perhaps many or most of them, where worship and internal activity becomes the focus and the social justice implications of their beliefs seem to be set aside. I'm not sure it's always deliberate or a matter of avoiding confrontation with power (though it may well be in some cases). In shrinking, aging congregations, it may be part of the defensive "ostrich head in the sand" mindset that sets in as they scramble to see how they can deal with internal issues. Certainly, even my very social justice oriented UU fellowship has seen it's social responsibility activities sidelined by internal politics and busy-ness at times.

How to get churches to recognize and act on the social justice implications of their faith is a whole conversation that many churches are having but, again, that very conversation often distracts from actually doing anything. People like you who challenge churches on this front are part of the solution IF the churches are willing to listen. Too bad many won't.

Mendalla

WB and Mendalla,

I am not sure if this is helpful to either of you...but I may have mentioned I took a university course last year about arts and social change. One of the projects my instructor was quite involved in was this one in China. Community members, elders, city governance, engineers, scientists and artists were all brought together to make it happen. It serves as a symbol as well as a prototype for functional water purification. Possible contacts for church or work?

http://www.keepersofthewaters.org/lwg.cfm

http://greenmuseum.org/content/artist_index/artist_id-62.html

Hi Kimmio:

Yes, it could be red-tape, but I think the UCC is also handicapped by traditionalism and the unquestioning belief in ancient doctrines that no longer serve us very well. The "Zeitgeist" or "spirit of our time" goes away from rigidly structured, hierchial and bureaucratic spiritual institutions toward free-flowing, leaderless, fully democratic, non-bureaucratic and creative spiritual movements. 

At the same time, and incongruous in view of what I just said, the UCC appears to be overly intellectual and relies too little on intuition and religious or mystical experience. "Too intellectual to trust their intuitions, yet not intellectual enough to distrust blind belief in doctrines," I sometimes say. I know this is unkind and not entirely true, but I exaggerate to make a point.

You and I admire the UCC crest. The most prominent feature of the crest is its shape, the vesica pisces, the fish bladder, the pointed oval aligned vertically. This is not only a feminine spirtual symbol, it is an ancient spiritual symbol that pre-dates Christianity and is a mystical vision common to many religions. In the Islamic world it is called Baraka, which is Arabic for "Grace."

Thus, the vesica pisces or Baraka symbolizes the feminine principles of spirituality and divine Grace. Moreover, being a universal spiritual symbol, it symbolizes the universality of spirtuality. Last but not least, being a mystical symbol, it emphasizes mystical, spiritual or religious experience as an essential element of faith.

That's why I said I'll pray for the UCC crest to come true.

The UU comes closer to my ideal of a universal spiritual movement than the UCC. If there were a UU church in our area, I'd be UU. Short of that, I'll remain UCC (with UU ideals)

Oh, Mendalla, you didn't derail us at all. what you said was quite pertinent.

Understand that I am not advocating we mix social action with services. I don't have to. We already do that. Church parades for the military, for example, have always been a practice - and nice things are invariably said about the military. I have often heard prayers for OUR soldiers in the regular service. I remember 9/11 being integrated into the music and prayers of my church in a regular service. We often take positions in a regular service - though usually careful not to offend the status quo.

But I'm not talking about preaching social service or even advocating it.

The origin of my notion came from a quite remarkable clergyman, Rev. Jim Schaffner. When I asked if I could form a current events group at the church, he was agreeable, but hoped that the events would be discussed in a Christian context.

I was at first jarred by that. Then the truth dawned on me. In all my years of doing current events for the news media, I had always framed my views in a Christian context. I realized that in my most agnostic years, my few had always been shaped by Christian faith. And I realized that was Jesus was talking about what we do now - not just about abstract rules for good behaviour in an ancient past.

I see no need - and much danger - in having the service leader preach current events - or advocate any specific cause. What I am thinking of is a service that connects to the present day, that encourages thought and discussion of how we are living now, and to consider it in a Christian context.

Social action should be left to voluntary groups.

In a world of news media that are largely propaganda agencies, there is very little place for serious thought and discussion about how we behave in relation to other countries or even to other groups. The church service seems to me to be an obvious place for it.

A simple case seems to be the meanings of forgiveness in our society - now. The meanings of love they neighbour.

I am not thinking our clergy should tell people what to think. They should make them aware that there are matters Christians should deal with in the context of their faith -  just as Jim Schaffner reminded me.

You are going to lead a current affairs group? I hope you are diplomatic with them than you been with me, or that could be quite the group.

it should be interesting -- i hear there is going to be a session on how to deal with a Bedouin rape monster *waggles eyebrows*

Diplomacy is essential.  A local capable UCC pastor insisted that the U. S. flag no longer be displayed on the church platform during Memorial Weekend and the 4th of July weekend.  So elderly grandmas with sons in the armed services wore teashirts to the Sunday services emblazoned with American flags!   That said, I think Graeme's idea of church current affairs groups is excellent.  Pastors often don't allude to remote global violence and injustice simply because they get their information from sporadic glances at CNN or an equivalent network and are only selectively informed on global issues   What I don't see in Graeme's posts is an articulate expression of the opposing viewpoint (e. g. the Israeli rationale for denying Palestinians their version of a homeland).  A key principle of effective debating is the efffort to state the opponent's position more succinctly and articulately than the opponent himself can articulate.  It is human nature to dismiss the other side as unwilling to come to terms with your true rationale.  Once this claim is defanged , a profound impact is often made.     

Graeme,

Pass a greeting on to Jim for me ...

WB, out on the Moors ...

Will do. I have not been in touch for a while - but I believe he is now back home in Nova Scotia.

Berserk - I have written on the Israeli viewpoint -and I have given a sympathetic reason for it.I don't think it's a reason we should accept. But I h ave explained it. I'm sorry you didn't see it. But I can't spend my days scrambling to find things you didn't read.

By the way, it is a trifle glib to refer to an "Israeli" viewpoint. In fact, there are sharp divisions within Israel, and within the Jewish world at large.

also by the way, shouldn't you write a critique of Jesus for failing to provide alternate views concerning murder, greed, etc.

One of the most striking experiences during my revent tour of Israel was the Israeli passion for survival generated by the Holocaust and the "Palestinian Arab threat."  This we had to spend a morning in their vast Holocaust Museum.  Indeed our guide informed us that for outsiders to do business with Israelis, a visit to this museum is mandatory "to grasp who we are as a people."  I was disappointed by this requirement because I had already visited the Holocaust Musuem in Washington D.C.  Then there was the mandatory visit to the Valley of Tears, the dlsplay of disabled Syrian tanks, and the playing of the voices of badly outnumbered heroic Israeli tank commanders who fought and died in the valley below, through which snaked the Damanscus road where Paul experienced his life-changing encounter with the Risen Christ.  We were taken to the area atop Masada where new army recruits are sworn in to military service, inspired by their motto, "Masada must never fall again." 

The Arab villlages where we dined were even more hospitable than the Israelis and militiantly pro-Israeli.  These experiences made it hard to imagine that, nearby (Jericho, Ramallah, etc.) were towns that were hostile to Americans for their presumed support of Israel.  As we walched a shepherd and his sheep roam by on the Shepherds' Fields overlooking Bethlehem, it was sobering to sense the hostility of that town as well, despite the presence of the Church of the Nativity.  So where does hope lie when passions are so high and convictions so powerful?  Education in each other's perspectives at least seems an essential first step.  So yes, I would be interested in how your characferize  and respond to the "standard" Israeli position.   

Are passions cooled by thought? Just kills the pyres --- hiawatha ... perhaps Hyper mists  ... myths ....

Jews suffered centuries of abuse in Europe, and then in North America. (Those who remained in Palestine did not.)

To this abuse was added the horror of the holocaust - a horror in which most of the West, including Canada and the US, offered no help whatever. Both Canada and the US have disgusting records right through the Hitler era and even after. When Canada accepted British children during the war, it specified that Jews were not permitted.

Every Jewish child learns that from early childhood. and it's true. I saw many incidents of that in Montreal when I lived there, and it still happens. I got a taste of Canadian anti-semitism myself when I worked for the YMHA, and wore my YMHA T shirt every day.

European Jews have a deep, bitter and justifiable distasts for and distrust of western Christians. They don't kid themselves about the motives of the US and Canadian government in supporting Israel. And they know that support could disappear in a day.

The more militant zionists practice unspeakable cruelties on Palestinians because they no longer feel any obligation to trust or be gentle with a world that never trusted or was gentle with them.

The final lesson came with the holocaust. Trust nobody. Look out for yourself. Take what you want. Don't back off an inch.

The holocaust did not destroy all Jews. But it succeeded in destroying much of the ancient spirit of Judaism. European Jews went to Palestine determined to think only of themselves, with no thought or mercy for anyone else.

They went to Palestine illegally. They illegally stole property. They practiced terrorism against both Arabs and British. This was before Israel was created.

it was made worse because it was founded as a religious state. Combined with an unusual voting system, it gave disproportionate power to the most conservative, dogmatic and extreme sects and their rabbis. They have dominated almost every government since 1948.

Jewish around the world, including in Israel, are divided on their attitudes to the Israeli government. Some see it justified in all it does. Others see it as aggressive, repressive, vicious, greedy. But you don't hear much about the latter group, the Jews for Peace.

Some injustices are never remedied - native peoples in North and South America, Japanese-Canadians in World War Two, centuries of abuse of Jews by the west. People react - and in people ways. The Israeli government quite cynically uses Canada and the US for its own purposes. And being people, Canadian and American politicians use Israel for their own purposes - all in the name of friendship.

The Israeli government treatement of Palestinians has been brutal, greedy, self-serving and destructive. In short, The Israeli government is acting as people do, with people reasons for doing it. It is acting just as the British and Egyptian and american and Canadian governments do. Israel has become a quasi-racist state with pronounced similarities to the ideas of Hitler - and not surprisingly so.

The Israeli government preaches hatred of Palistinians much as Bush preached hatred of Moslems.

On balance, Jews are better off than we gentiles are. they have a long tradition of serious discussion and study. That's why you will find more intelligent discussion about Israel among Jews than you will among gentiles.

Gentiles are suckers for the self-flagellation and for avoidance of serious and open discussion of anything.

At the end, The Israeli government policy is wrong because it is destructive of Judaism, may well be destructive of israel itself, and quite possibly of the rest of us.