The barest minimum for a "church," as a community, is, well, a community of like-minded individuals plus the space for them to get together.

I think communities of compassionate people are essential for society. They need not, however, embrace a common religious creed or doctrine, as long as they share basic humanistic ideals and are willing to further and practice those as individuals and as a community.

If they also share a set of spiritual beliefs and practice common rituals, then they might need a special place to practice those.

For me, personally, nature would be a an excellent place for spiritual rituals. But then I'm a pagan at heart.

On a micro level, each of us is a temple. Moving up the scale to the macro level, communities of people, society at large, the whole world is a church. The problem to overcome is- on every level, divided against itself, it will fall--it is falling and will need to be rebuilt. The foundation is already there, is always there.  Core values of love of humanity will keep it standing.

On a personal level, I think of my own actions and whether or not any of my own actions contradict those core values, and think of how I can change so that my actions are aligned with my core values. It's hard to do...how do I not use money..I have to use money to buy things to survive... when I believe in so many ways that money is the root of all evil, for example? Particularly when the things we buy serve to support corporate interests. How do I not prostitute myself, essentially, working to support corporate empires in order to support myself,  and buying things that profit corporate empires in order to feed myself-- when we are so mired in it?

The same principals expand all the way out to the macro level. Groups of people must think  about and act accordingly to best support the core values of love of humanity because that is serving God. That's a church.

This is a hymn we are singing in our church on Sunday...VU 579

The church is wherever God’s people are praising,
Singing God’s goodness for joy on this day.
The church is wherever disciples of Jesus
Remember his story and walk in his way.

The church is wherever God’s people are helping,
Caring for neighbours in sickness and need.
The church is wherever God’s people are sharing
The words of the Bible in gift and in deed.

Yes! 

And I allow that church buildings undoubtedly have a place, even though Jesus and the early Christian church had no need for them (and they can become places to hide rather than centres of prayer, reflection, worship and witness).

But I do feel that those groups of people (where they identify themselves as "church" and meet in some deicated space) might be better served — and be freed to better serve — by looking critically at their interfaces: with their administrative systems and with their properties.

It's that way we all have of applying the same familiar principles we know to all we do but, if we fish like we play hockey we won't see any fish for all the splashing. It seems to me, for example — speaking in some ignorance, I confess — that, where committee structures take hold and start proliferating through a "group of people" that's a "church", the sense of shared purpose can start unravelling. It seems to me that we can generate liabilities we maybe don't need and then get distanced from what we are called to be by subsets of priorities and  needs to get everything in place so that we're equipped to become what we're called to be. Travelling light scares us… unnecessarily.

I've said this before (but a long time ago): I think a lot of "churched" communities face the problem of propping up old, over-sized, high-maintenance buildings that are expensive to heat, environmentally unfriendly and not always very accessible. Often they are not especially versatile. "Unchurched" friends (I have a number of them) have told me they don't want to get involved with a church because they have all the maintenance issues they need trying to keep their own home going and would rather give to chosen charities that have fewer overheads. They have seen "church" as a way to needlessly spend money on ridiculous buildings.

One problem with this sort of church that shouldn't be overlooked is the witness it presents to the community.

I have a dream: several churches (at a national level) get together and draft specifications for an "ideal" worship space and an environmentally-friendly, energy-efficient, easy-access, low-maintenance, multipurpose building that has a distinctive external profile. (etc, etc) …what kind of public statements should church architecture be making in the 21st century? What are the acoustical, lighting, technical needs? Pews (god forbid) or chairs? What should be the expected life of a church building?

And they then promote a Canada-wide (worldwide?, why not?) architectural design competition (seeking prize sponsorships from contracting and construction firms, etc) aimed at architectural practices and senior students, for designs and ideas to enable the specifications to be met as cheaply but as beautifully and attractively as possible.

The outcomes could include:

1. The creation of a free-access resource of design options and ideas (reflecting current architectural knowledge, skills and materials science) that could be made available to any church thinking about replacing one of its old monster buildings.

2. A stimulus to think about what worship is, why it is like it is, how it might be made more effective, and give them opportunities to make good space-design decisions from scratch, rather than by trying to do (usually costly) "best fit" modifications of fundamentally problematic buildings.

3. The generation of as much publicity as possible about worship activity: what is it, etc, and the churches' desire to present a more sensitive face to their communities. It'd be an opportunity to talk publicly about the reasons and needs for worship.

4. New buildings that could be vastly cheaper to maintain and, being more versatile, income-earners and community shared-use assets.

5. Designs and spaces better suited to current worship practice and theological perspectives.

6. Opportunities for churches to sell off existing assets, and replace them with low-cost, far more suitable facilities, so that income can be applied to the sort of work churches should have as first priorities.

7. It might even give architects opportunities to be more creative and think about values other than cost per square foot of footprint.

I saw the need for this especially sharply in Scotland where small congregations were struggling to maintain monstrously uncomfortable, inappropriate stones and slate-roofed buildings that, because of their historical value could not be razed ...but organisations responsible for historical preservation weren't interested in taking them over because of the costs involved.

(Here, I've been delighted that the church we're now involved with has just finished covering its roof with solar panels. It seems, to me, to be a significant step in the right direction.)

gecko - the words to that hymn are wonderful, I think.  They make it sound as if church is 'people in acting in positive, caring ways'.  My only gripe would be that they are jesus oriented. I see many different paths, writings and inspirational art that point people in the same direction.

Mike - I agree that something positive needs to happen about church buildings.  Locally we have various denominations zealously protecting there individual buildings and constantly raising money for upkeep and repair.  Why would it be too hard to share space with each other?  A member of one denomination was complaining to me about the effort the aging congregation put into maintaining their building (they are 65+).  I brought up the possibility of choosing to talk to the denomination across the street who have a building far too big for there congregation, and who also  struggle with upkeep.  Oh dear - wrong words!  Apparently (in her opinion anyway) sharing a building would turn her into a member of a different denomination - as in "I'm a @#$% not a %$#@"

Personal observations over many years make me think that the average congregation and clergy in this town actually prefer 'building related' efforts over and above 'community building' efforts.

Hi Kay: that witness is EXACTLY the problem. Your conclusion IS what any reasonable person would conclude from the reluctance to address what in any other context would be considered an unsustainable but readily solved problem.

Hi mike----I beliieve the first thing the 2000 year old Church of Christ did wrong, was to take out the LOVE that Jesus said to have for a Brother.  (Love the word,) is in the R.S.V--539 Times . I believe it is very Important. I also think it is the place GOD layed out the church. In John 3-16  it was because of Love that God sent us his son.Jesus show us at the last supper. That we should show LOVE for are Brothers and be ready an willing to wash there feet . If we think we know more than a Brother then help him to learn ,  If he hungers ,feed him ,if he thirst ,give him a drink,If he is cold ,Take off your coat and give it to Him.You will never feel warmer.There is nothing wrong with Gods church Mike. We are just off the path a bit.--- airclean33

I agree that community is an essential element of what makes church church..   Our love for one another in community is God working through us in the world.  The whole world could/should, in fact, be a church.  Though this begs the question of why have churches as physcial/administrative/communal structures at all?

Churches used to be designated sanctuaries, separate and theoretically untouchable by concerns of the world.  Literally, they were a place where God was thought to live.   How backward and even idolatrous this seems now!   Of course God is everywhere, in every one.

And yet, what about our individual relationship to God?  Shouldn't one function of a church still be to provide a place where individuals can commune with the Creator?

Yes we commune with God through each other in community.  But what about our individual spiritual lives.   Do our churches still provide a place where this most intimate relationship between an individual's soul and God can be nurtured? 

 As a young person I regarded church, and especially the sanctuary as a sacred place - meaning, for me, a place set apart from daily life., a  holy place, a place where our shoes were, at least figuratively, removed.   This isn't to say that church was divorced from daily life. I just felt  that it was  a place where daily life could be set aside for a time in order that I could return to it with a renewed spiritual perspective.  

After returning to formal church after an absence of  thirty years or so, I was shocked to find people drinking coffee in the "sanctuary,"  chatting loudly in the church before and after the service and generally treating the space like a community hall rather than a place of prayer.  Quiet, communal prayer seems to be a thing of the past.  I tried several churches before finding the one to which I currently belong.  This more relaxed atmosphere seemed to be the norm in all of them. 

I guess this makes me sound like a total dinosaur.   I used to go to church for the sense of mystery invoked by the music, stained glass and general atmosphere.

The church I do go to is a lively place.  I love the sense of community.  The only thing is, sometimes it feels like a clique.  I don't think it's a comfortable place for a stranger who might walk in wanting a moment with God. 

I still seek contact with mystery- those still, breathless places in a forest, or my garden where the border between me and the great Unknown feels thinner.  I just don't expect church to be one of those places anymore.

Church has become one place where you never have to explain or have to ask permission to pray. (either alone or with others)

I like that definition.

But it can be a place where it gets hard to pray because of the distractions, agendas, schedules and busy-ness.

Yet there are few other shared places for stillness, where our souls can catch up with us.

I am on the fence about the church spaces, Mike. The church I go to is an old beautiful stone cathedral style church. It is probably expensive to heat (is actually quite drafty in colder weather, but warms up the more people attend the services). I think it would be sad to lose it and it's old beautiful stained glass and  vaulted arched ceiling.  Such skill and time and love went into building it.The building doesn't make the church...but it is a nice place to be. However, if we had to lose it, the people are really what make it special for me all in all.

The Orthodox like beautiful churches.  However, since our group, Orthodox Church of America (and Canada) is quite new, we have no funds donated from past generations nor building bought generations ago.

We rent an old and plain Baptist church way on the outskirts of Victoria.  We have tried to make it beautiful inside, but it is not our #1 priority (that priority is making sure our priest and deacon get paid).

I like the sense of temple/church as a space where community spirit and soul are conjugated ... joined?

Then Reuben in the Hebrew tongue means separation ... like heaven from earth for an individual to suffer the pain of living. We have conquered that by building walls of delusion ... excluding and shunning the needy ...

Church as place to pray and contemplate upon these thoughts or eliminate them for a period of blank mind/soul/psyche! From the choir loft you can see people pondering the minister's reflection ... then you see other's that are ... well somewhere's else ... don't wish to follow the train of thought for the day. It takes all kinds it seems to create an environment to learn from ...

Perhaps this is the raison d'etre of Moses holding community responsible under a structure of fabric ... then what powerful real person could see into the fabric of story ... and the soul, or shoe is put out of sight ... lost in a haze of emotions ... the worshipping point of humanity that gets so excited over this method of losing thought ... that they worship emotions instead of intellect ... outside stuff of the emotional sole ... then Moses used the rod of enlightenment to wake up the sleepers ... la Zoaring Syndrome? That's sort of drifting thoughts ... withothere's wandering emotions? What a primal soup in tha kettle of Phesh!

Did I say that phesh is and old word for psyche, the vacant ghost inhabiting the fatty tissue we call brain? Very appropriate for Ho Loe Wee Neigh's Season ... you can take that comment as you like it ... but there is some profundity tuit ... as in the tome ... burial space for thought's and emotions as conjugated?

I once had a travel "junket": a free travel writing trip from New Zealand to the U.K. laid on by Air New Zealand and the British Tourist Authority. I was flown first class to London and was given a first class travel pass and a voucher to use at hotels (I NEVER stay in hotels)... with the insistence that I stay at the best, eat and drink the best and really get with the best that Britain had to offer. I remember a couple of nights I had at the Feathers Hotel in Ludlow on the Welsh Border. It's an ancient building that had been given a luxury refit, the food and wines were superb (two bottles of wine cost the BTA over £200), and the service was breathtaking.

But I couldn't afford any of it myself.

I don't care about being priced out of hotels and dining rooms. But I don't want to be priced out of my worship space. And, whether it comes out of my near-empty pocket or someone else's, I'm not comfortable with practising a love-centred faith that has as its meeting place an unnecessarily high-cost, high-maintenace edifice. I can't get my head around that having an essential place in my journey, any more than the Ludlow Hotel comes near to defining my love of travel, exploration and discovery.

My most exciting travel discoveries were through about 10 years of producing a magazine on low pay and a negligible budget (it helped to cover Ryanair budget airfares on a good day) that took me into people's homes and communities, often poor ones, across Europe, from the Baltic to the Black Sea, writing about indigenous bagpiping traditions (of which I'd reckon there are 200 or more across the European continent, Middle East and North Africa). My currency was a shared curiosity and passion for the music, the instrument and its place in Western musical history. Through it, I met amazing people, from the president of Latvia to Islamic Rom in Bulgaria, punk pipers in Germany and dangerous Basques in Spain... real, immediate engagements with real people I'd never meet in the Feathers Hotel  (appropriately named when I think about it).

When i put this experience into the contexts of my faithing, I'm left reflecting a little sadly on the effective exclusivism of so many of our church buildings.

Eire bags ... a Q, or cue on the maqon of the psyche ... the Eire that I breathe as pas inne thro' ...?

Those mortallah entwined would never get IT! Expan d' the hori Zoans ... Zions?

We used to sing that one a lot in my UCCan days and I think it's true. A community of caring with shared beliefs and values is a church even if it's twelve people meeting in a basement (which describes some home churches). And the shared beliefs can be fairly broad (i.e. UU churches can have a range of specific beliefs united by acceptance of the UU principles) or fairly narrow (e.g. a specific set of Christian beliefs). Mosques, synagogues, etc. fit here, too.

What matters is that the people feel a reason; a need as it were; to come together for worship and work. The administrative structures (national organizations, church courts, boards, etc.) are just that. They enable a church, esp. as it grows large, to do the work that needs to be done so that it can provide what people really want from it. When the administrative structures dominate, the church suffers because a church doesn't exist for holdings meetings, it exists for worshipping, caring, and sharing. That's a lesson that my fellowship and other churches of all faiths are learning the hard way at times.

Mendalla

Mend Allah ...

God as a people needs to be repaired ... a  RIP in the fabric ... something missing? That's what the industrious group has removed ... the Ba sic 's of life ... from the other 95+% ... those Hoo the rich don't give a chit about ... in revelation ... something will change ... those that have will not like those that have not ... isn't that a Pi gah of enigma?

Yet they still won't get it ... for the world needs a go round ...

Is there need --- Malachi 3:10 ... tail end of the OT ... ain't that a bust?!