I've been sending you sibliminal messages.  You'll start thinking of babies as food next.

Hi Mendella-- It may be I am not the one to say anything , but I got this from an old posting it may help--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cherish your doubts, for doubt is the handmaiden of truth.

Doubt is the key to the door of knowledge; it is the servant of discovery.

A belief which may not be questioned binds us to error,

     for there is incompleteness and imperfection in every belief.

Doubt is the touchstone of truth; it is an acid which eats away the false.

Let no man fear for the truth, that doubt may consume it; for doubt is a testing of belief.

The truth stands boldly and unafraid; it is not shaken by the testing;

     For truth, if it be truth, arises from each testing stronger, more secure.

He that would silence doubt is filled with fear;

     the house of his spirit is built on shifting sands.

But he that fears no doubt, and knows its use, is founded on a rock.

     He shall walk in the light of growing knowledge;

     the work of his hands shall endure.

Therefore let us not fear doubt, but let us rejoice in its help:

     It is to the wise as a staff to the blind;

     doubt is the handmaiden of truth.---------------------------------------------------------------------I agree with this. If you didn't notice( your) the poster. Some times as I fall back . God says look at the start again. God Bless Mendella---airclean33

Good point, Airclean.  I missed church this morning too, although I am not an atheist.  I know it sounds odd to most Canadians, especially since I live in Victoria, but when the winter comes I feel like hibernating.   I just don't want to go out.

Hi Mendalla,

Living things all experience seasons of plenty and seasons of destitution..  The fallow year comes before the renewed strength of harvest.

It doesn't necessarily mean that anything is amiss.  In fact, it may ultimately be a sign of health.

The only cure for the dry well of faith is an abundance of rain.  Going to the well when it is already dry yields nothing but disappointment.  Quitting on the well altogether means that when it finally is full up again nobody takes advantage of it.

Habits can be difficult things to break and even when it isn't unhealthy to break a habit it still leads to discomfort when our routines are disrupted.  For my first 3 years of ministry I preached 3 services a Sunday.  When I moved tomy first single point charge I only had the one service.  For months following I would start to get anxious around 1:30pm and 6:30pm.  My body was telling me that I should be doing something even though the routine in the new charge was different.

Not going to worship is a habit and stay away long enough the routine is to forego worship altogether.  Trying to change that routine to include attending worship would be fairly herculean.

Which is me saying it could be six of one or half a dozen of the other.

The only time not attending should become a problem is when you want to be attending.

The only time attending should become a problem is when you don't want to attend.

Grace and peace to you.

John

airclean, thanks for posting that. Mandella, thanks for posting it originally. I have been feeling the same way and haven't been to church for a couple of weeks. I have found the art project I have been working on with my class group (arts for social change...whereby we address social issues through art) to be as spiritually fulfilling and real as church worship lately. A wonderful group of people, not necessarily Christian, but the process and the togetherness, creating something meaningful together, meeting to break bread (which my classmate said when we met for dinner at her home to work on our project) and discuss how our work can make a positive impact and foster inclusion...it has been a very "churchlike", very spiritually fulfilling experience...but without the trappings. I wonder if it like home churches in ancient days. I love my church. The people there are very warm and helpful, good people. However, part of me recognizes that most of the people in our church want for very little. We are, on the whole, very priveleged. I feel a nagging need to get out in the world and help there--that there are far more people who need help outside my church rather than within the comfort of the church. I can worship and give thanks anywhere...but if I am containing my efforts within the congregation, then how much good am I doing? I think the occupy movement, at least for me, has made me think about this more. As good as it already is, I wish the church could be more extraverted. I think that's what's kept me away these past couple of weeks.  Iam also longing to be more extroverted, to get out there and follow Christ outside of the church walls and into new places and experiences,. I do miss the feeling of community, I feel safe there, and perhaps I should have gone today, because I do feel ties to it that I don't intend to cut...but I also wish the church could foster that same sense of community and positive social impact outside of itself, and get involved with other groups who are doing the same, who are trying to do good in the world...step outside of it's walls a bit more...if that makes sense.

There are people in the world, out making a difference, putting their heart and soul into it--healing, creating, giving, who are not necessarily Christian but who are, I would say, Christ-like. I suppose I long for the church to seek out those people and work with them and along side them, outside of the church traditions--instead of waiting for them to walk through the door of the church and adapt. That's been my experience in the last few weeks.

Mendalla - is it possible that it's time to seek out alternative worships? Something to either replace or add to what you already have?

For me, a good worship service is like fuel for my soul. I need to stop and refuel every so often so that I can continue to do God's work in the world. As a full-time Sunday School teacher, I was finding that I didn't get enough refueling and I realized that I needed for that to change. I started by asking to have communion Sundays off so that I could stay in the sanctuary for the full service. That was good, but I recently realized that it's no longer enough for me. I recently joined presbytery so I get to worship briefly each month with them - as well as attending covenanting services, of course. I also started attending a monthly evening service that a friend told me about, which I have really enjoyed. Unfortunately I just found out that this evenings' service was to be the final one, so I am once again looking for something to fill the void. I'm not sure what it will be, but I have faith that I'll eventually find something.

"When people lose their sense of awe, they turn to religion."

Stephen Mitchell's Tao Te Ching

"When the student is ready, the teacher appears."

May you return to awe, may it overtake you and make you feel meh with everything less than awesome.

That sense of awe is very important to me.  I don't feel it at church.

Well Mendalla my friend, I don't really know how to help. I think perhaps the others know better where you're coming from, me not having ever been a part of a church. But I can say that what I have is important to me, and I cherish it, without any church.

Folks: I have posted 4 videos in the favorite videos thread, page 2, that are representations of my spirituality. Some of it may seem forgein to you, but I delve and think in my own way, and express with joy.

Well, Mendalla, it could be seasonal affective disorder. It tends to afflict some of us at this time of year.

Go to a Blue Christmas service, that'll pick you up.

Sorry, bad joke.

Hi onewman:

Is the reverse also true: "When people turn away from religion, they gain their sense of awe?" 

I don't think so; this sense of awe is not necessarily related to religion. Some of us have it, others don't, within or outside any religion. Ideally, religion should foster this sense of awe. Alas, it does not always do so.

Maybe you would like Orthodoxy (I say this half in jest).  A new novel I just finished reading, set in modern-day Russia calls Orthodoxy "crack for the soul."  (Snowdrops, by A.D. Miller).  

Didn't Gidean have a crack in his Jared soul? Look up Jared on the concordance ... lot of eM ...

Must be the Fall affection for us ... Freudian stir of the hypo ber-la!

Awe is not a problem for me. I feel awe and wonder at many things around me. It's not necessarily what I'm looking for in a church, though it helps. I do find some forms of service provide it more than others. A powerful anthem or well spoken reading of a powerful passage definitely calls it up.

All of the comments have been helpful and have me thinking more about the root question: What is it that used to drive me to go to church that isn't there anymore? Perhaps chansen, in his usual witty way, is closest to the truth. Maybe I've finally gone the last mile into a form of atheist (or agnostic) spirituality where the fulfillment I got from going to and participating in worship just isn't needed anymore. I find that kind of unlikely but possible. Arm's suggestion of SAD is another one that may not be too far off the mark. Had a lot on my mind and in my life recently that may be dragging me down; making me less receptive to the spiritual/religious. And John's comments are insightful, as always. Thanks to all for your comments.

Sorry to focus this so much on myself. Should have been a blog, I guess. Let's open it up to the broader question, surely discussed on WC many times, of just why we go to church in a day and a age where it's no longer a social/religious obligation as it once was. What do you get out of church? Why do you go (or not go) to church? Perhaps answering the broader questions will help my current discernment process.

Peace,

Mendalla

Hey Mendalla, no problem talking about you. I like to talk about you and I hope we can all ask about ourselves. That's not a problem. I too think you may be drifting away from church in general, and that's totaly ok. If you don't need it, you don't need it. No big deal.

But seeing as you're asking... I don't go to church because I don't agree with what's said and done there. I don't feel comfortable, it's not my religion. But, that's obvious eh.  ; )

Mendalla,

In life theological understanding is the booby prize--because it offers just enough spirituality to inoculate you against the real thing--authentic spiritual experience.  The real thing is a function of spiritual longing and self-discipline, and not doctrinal orthodoxy or correctness.  But if one is patient enough to allow for several spiritual blind alleys, and if one acknowledges that spiritual experiences vary to an inconceivable degree in their power, sweetness, and feelings of connectedness with the universe, then that magically self-authenticating and life-changing experience lurks in the shadows of the quest for gradual motivational purification where and when it is least expected, like a coy courting lover who gently asks, "How badly do you want me?" 

But this epiphany will never happen until you are true to yourself and brutally honest with yourself; and if that honesty requires an inner confession that you are now a full-blown atheist, then come clean.  Certain Christian leaders seem to live lives full of amazingly miraculous divine intervention and guidance.  I have asked them what  was the key to their spiritual breakthrough. The reply?  "I achieved my breakthrough experience only after I was finally willing to be an atheist."  They then add that their breakrhough experiences were all the more compelling precisely because their admitted atheism created more a sense of divine ambush that erased any sense that the divine overture was merely wishful thinking. 

I heard a near-death researcher discussing the role of NDEs in converting many hardened atheists.  Typically when they were startled by an encounter with Christ as a Being of Light, they exclaimed, "But I don't even believe in you."  Christ typically responsed, "But I DO beieve in you."  Christ's faith in you is the edge you need to succeed through an expanded spiritual quest.  I'd suggest exploring personal and group spiritual retreats, the Walk to Emmaus 4-day experience, and various types of Charismatic and Quaker meetings--for the experiences this generates, not for the belief systems taught.

Is that BERSERK or what? Like looking into the mire ... that is a self image? Wake up call!

A good spiritual journey has times of down - there are as John of the cross - dark night of the soul.  Whitehead suggested the God has to be enmy and then void before God is friend.  We are called to move through old images, let them go, and live in the moment of void,   Now the secret is many of us leave in the void.

I remember a time whe as a minister in a non church situation, but working for the church, when I realized I was expecting too much from church.  So I let go of the need for it to be relevant, and let it be irrelevant, and then it became meaningful.  Sometimes we need to back off to get involved.

Another point is faking it.  Great spiritual mentors have used this to reconnect.  To say it is empty but I will live as if it is real.  Quess what they rediscover the 'real' again.  It is to let go of over analysing - too much focus on my needs and to let them go.  Now this works in many situations, friendships, marriage, work, where we fake it.  Now sometimes the faking does call us to leave because it is not working.  But like all things it takes time, and committment to engagement - to discover the passion.  Or to put it another way fake passion to discover it is there.

Interesting piece http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/under-god/post/my-five-lessons-from-...

Maybe it's time for something beyond the churchianity ethos? ...
something more direct / radically transforming / real ?  something that really strips you naked and makes you feel that you've never been more at home in your life?

Right on, Rishi!

I read somewhere that "worship" is a dramatization or re-enactment of the essential tenets or elements of one's faith.  Yet, very often, "church" (it probably doesn't matter which denomination) becomes the situs for the re-enactment and dramatization of tenets of secular (not Christian) faith ... economic theory and practice,  management theory and practice, political beliefs, secular morality and fixation on the "bottom line" ... and Christian principals and practice become displaced by the old familiar 9 to 5 workaday principals and practice of the "veal pens" of the corporate rat race.  One goes to church looking for inspiration (or at least something different) but (as mendalla says) one can come out "feeling very meh" about the whole thing.  You blame it on yourself saying that you feel "burnt out" as you naturally would having just been treated, not to an antidote, but, rather, more of the same old poison.

well, I need to bitch. Other than a small church i preached at many times, I have heard from neither collegues in ministry, presbytery or the church i was at for 10 years. WHEN ASKED TO MAKE ME A CALL, THE REPLY WAS "iS SHE ON THE MEMBERSHIP LIST" You can tell by my typing I am upset.

Church has become less important, I guess,I miss the ritual, the hymns and the service but I don.t miss the bullshit that goes on in some of the churches I HAVE BEEN ASSOCIATED WITH.

forgive my harsh remarks. I thought church was more. It brings tears to my eyes.

Here is where i HAVE FOUND pASTORAL cARE AND i THANK ALL OF YOU.

Crazyheart, I am really sorry to hear that you are not getting the support you deserve from the churches you have served. I am glad that we can be of support to you.

CH, that sounds terrible.  

I am so glad you can find some comfort and care here at WC!

Coptic Orthodox Altar of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem

Kyrie eleison.  Kyrie eleison.  Kyrie eleison (cross self 3 x's)

May the Lord hold you close.

Well crazyheart I can feel the pain in that last post of yours.   They always go on about how the church is a "family" but in a family they always ask after you even if you've been away for a while (especially when you've been away for a while).  

You think you know people ...

I don't know what the answer is except that if you don't expect too much you can't be disillusioned.  On the other hand one doesn't want to fall into cynicism.  I'm pretty sure, though, there is no requirement that you go back for a second helping ... 

Perhaps you may take some comfort (albeit cold comfort) in thinking it is not a failure of the hearts of those who knew you but rather an organizational bureaucratic SNAFU where people are obsessing about rules and procedures and parcelling out responsibilities to such an extent that a labour of love is turned into a bungled bureaucratic chore (after all, would calling crazyheart during her sickness fall under the rubric of  "welcoming" or is it "membership" or is it "pastoral care" and in order to make that determination isn't it of the utmost importance to know whether one is dealing with a "member" or not??).  In this view of things you are loved but by people who have been blinded and struck dumb by the secular rules and systems they have imposed upon themselves.  This is an example of the failure to "worship" that I mentioned above.  A call upon a member of the community who is suffering a grave illness would seem to be a re-enactment of Christ's own love and ministering to the sick but the opportunity to act this out in one's own life is foregone because systems built around the idea of scarcity and designed to deliver efficiency (rather than love and generosity) have drained the generosity and love out of the picture.  The call upon crazyheart then turns into an exercise that is considered not worth doing unless it is seen as impacting the "bottom line".  Efficiency and following the proper channels supplants love and the church dies another death.

Feeling your pain, Crazyheart . . . sorry you are experiencing this. As Qwerty says, it may have more to do with bureaucratic SNAFU than anything else.

As you know, I departed from a congregation for theological reasons a few years ago. The minister & the board & the M and P committee were well aware of my concerns. Yet I received a phone call about three months later asking me to give the "welcome to visitors" speech on the following Sunday.

"Sorry," I said. "I have left the congregation." There was a very awkward silence on the phone, I can tell you.

Communication in church congregations can leave a lot to be desired.

Hope this helps in some small way. Thinking of you, my virtual friend ... P3

CH,

Some wonder why I ramble on in non-sense I call poesy in my attitude towards blind gods (desires without rationale?). But it is in the interest of the Roman fathers of the church that common folk (pagans) not know what is going on in the sect (secular church) that is obsessed with control issues (a'phreeK-anne, or African origin in the dark). Check out Augustine history ... follows the south wind of Mediterranion concept ... Sirrocco ... one hot set of stones to bring all else to a stop as a monster (Goli-athe as a follower in the fall). This is the train of thought of pathe-logical people without care, or even the psyche-logical without care ... there's something missing the element of the-O ... just nothing there as it starts, but a huge expanse that  an archaic desire would like to fill ... but mortals hated God'soul thing ... a beauty out there as defined by Webster ... the night Skye as mystery Icon? Shadow Masque of psyche, thought (The-O') is to be hidden?

Many deeply involved in church rule are still in that stew ... can't get beyond the rule laid down to assist those at loss until they discover heart and mind in balance ... rare case ... perhaps thin Isis or a cool woman that would give a hot head a proper bath? This has polytheistic implications that is inappropriate for monotheistic sorts so perhaps I should sign off ... chill of blast ...

Believe me CH ... you are not alone ... there's a secret civilization out there, but like love and god it is fickle but does get around the hard spots ... parousia ... that's a Greek marble for creating mortal statues ... limite din value as they travel little ... unlike the soul of Christianity ... subliminal Diaspora? Isn't that just the devil of satire in a misunderstood story? One does have to dig to find elements of soul ... a mire -like Job ... in verse 'n ... or type setting Word. But mortals still hate to know ... lazy I would observe when it comes to understanding God as explicit and implicit string theory ... attaching ends is considered mean, or even common behaviour ... evil ... but who created love maqon (space; in Hebrew) ... a wilderness trip or adequate hajji? Transparency of desire is catagorical as some old authority .. applied to an imp error IT've ... down the pipes ... into the pits ... 'eLL've a th'aught eh? Lucean ID!

Bitch away, possum.

I can feel your hurt in that jumble of capital and "little" letters.

Keep away from the "frozen chosen" - you've got more warmth in your little finger than they have in their whole bodies.

Being part of a community -particularly a spiritual community - can be rewarding. But if it's lacking in agape it's not worth a bean..............

Oh Crazyheart - I read your words earlier today and wept.  It has taken me this long to pull myself together sufficiently to reply.  I'm so incredibly sad that you haven't received any of that valuable caring that ministers and congregations should have available to you.  If I'm honest (which I try to be) your words ripped the scab off my own church related injury.  Please don't think there is a need for an apology for that - each time the scab is ripped off the healing happens a bit quicker and easier than it used to.  Church caused grief is so much like the grief for a family member who leaves too soon.   Thank God for WC eh.  You are welcome here - even if you need to bitch, whine, complain, criticise or throw a hissy fit.  You are loved. 

Somehow I had come to understand that a church was supposed to be a model of a caring community.  I heard lots of that type of expression when I used to attend.  Also many 'lovey dovey' hymns, warm, supportive words from the pulpit and so on.  I heard stories of prayer shawls lovingly created and shared.  Did you get one?  I bet not.  If you wondermail me your real life address I'll send you one.

Observations over many years have proved that to me that  'the way churches speak and the way they act' don't match.  Can they not see that real people get hurt by this divide between 'what we say and what we do'? 

Here's a great big cyber hug for you

((((((((((((((((((((Crazyheart))))))))))))))))))))

((((((((((and family))))))))))

I  am sorry Madella for highjacking your thread, And Kay, no I did not get a prayer shawl. But God is with me , shawl or not.

Threadjack away, my dear. Your troubles are deeper and more important than rather minor musings about church.

Peace,

Mendalla

Isn't Mendalla a nice chap, Crazyheart?

Much, much too nice to wear a gorilla face..........

Hi Mendalla,

Well, yes and no.

It isn't a competition.  

No matter how important Crazyheart's troubles are they do not render your troubles unimportant.

Both, in their own ways show that Church isn't as easy as falling off of a log.  Both in their own ways illustrate just how fragile and delicate relationship can be.

Your troubles are important to you.  Important enough for you to share.  Nothing trivial at all in that.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi crazyheart,

We all do from time to time.

Even if i couldn't I would have gotten that information from you saying you were upset.  I regret that your expectations weren't met.

Now you think differently.

Church can be more.  Church is not always more.  In every age the Church is full of people prone to fail in myriads of ways.  You found one very painful failure.

I could rattle off ahundred reasons why what happened did happen.  None of those reasons would change what happened.

Again, I regret that the Church failed to live up to your expectations and the pain that has created for you.

Grace and peace to you.

John

that explains a lot, actually....

Crazyheart, one time when my son was 20 (he's now 34), he forgot to phone and acknowledge my birthday. I was quite upset. All sorts of thoughts running through my head. Was I not a good Mom? Wasn't I important? etc, etc, etc.... My first inclination was to suck it up, be stoic, understand with the wisdom of a mother that this too shall pass. Later that day though, my thoughts turned to, "what am I teaching my son?" If I say nothing he might miss the mark on another person's "important thing". So I risked looking ridiculous, hurt and I thought selfish, to phone him and tell him that I was feeling a bit hurt that he didn't remember. We actually ended up having a nice chat and a good laugh, BUT I'm glad to say.....It never happened again.

That day I think my son learned I could be just as fragile and vulnerable as the next person. For me it wasn't about having a gift or a card, I just wanted him to remember me, his Mom, was having a birthday.

I know it doesn't compare with your experience, in fact it's slightly trivial, but when you're well.......maybe you should risk saying something?

Hey, whoever said gorillas weren't nice? I hear tell that the real black sheep of the ape family are the chimps and those pesky cousins of theirs, the humans.

Mendalla

Hug for (((Crazyheart))).

Yes, Mendalla, those hairless apes can be the worst of the ape family.

But they can also be the best. Depends on them, really.

So let us try to be good apes.

But what is good, and what is not good? And how can we tell the difference?

The 64 milion dollar question, eh?

Hi Mendalla:

I am hearing challenged. Although the accoustics in our new church (Trinity United, Vernon) are said to be very good, my hearing aid must clash with the accoustics of the bulding, or with the sound system, or both, because I can hardly understand a word of what is being said in church. So I make up the service in my mind. And I enjoy the music.

That way I have a splendid service every time.

Thank goodness you can hear the music, Arminius!

Mendella, I somewhat have a problem with church now too. In my 30's I stopped going all together and found my way back via an evangelical missionary church. But now, I am increasingly disturbed with some of the things that are being preached. Wondercafe amongst other influences, has opened my eyes alot and as I come to a new comprehension of what Jesus is really saying to me and reach new understandings, it is sometimes hard to listen to some of the crap being spouted from the pulpit. Not all but some and in some ways it tends to nullify some of the good that I get out of what I'm hearing. I have to work hard at listening to a good sermon that would be the way Jesus and others would have us understand things and at the same time I may have listened to another sermon the week before condemning the very nature of some people. Because I know myself I am flawed I have tried to have patience with the churches "evolvement" and I have even attended a United Church or too in the past year to see if it would be a better fit. I ended up taking a break over the summer to try and sort things out. My brother suggested that I should stay with the church that makes me feel uncomfortable instead of finding the one that feels more comfortable. (he's said this to me before) It's a conundrum, look for personal comfort and peace or place myself in the lions den and start speaking up, while risking being lumped in with "the group"? I still remember the time I spoke up during a Bible study about how I now supported gay marriage....I thought I was going to be lynched. I was further asked why I felt I needed to disrupt the class with false teachings and I should search my soul for the answer to that one.

For me Mendella, any period that inspires me to step back and re evaluate any situation is God's "hand" leading me to a place I'm supposed to be.  It may be that you will become a better disciple outside of the church than within one.

Hi p3:

The musical performance in our church is excellent! We have a big choir that sings one or two songs on their own, and there are five communal hymns per service. And we not only have a Grand Piano and organ, the piano is sometimes accompanied by flute, percussions and strings, or any of these alone or in combination. Our organist is also a composer and often plays her own pieces as a prelude, interlude or postlude. I like to sit in the sanctuary after the service until she has stopped playing.

Trinity United in Vernon also hosts many community concerts.

As you see, I turn the deaf ear selectively.

As you see, I turn the deaf ear selectively.

[/quote]

As I do when Rev John speaks.

Well maybe that's all I need to do too.

Waterfall,

Find a church that has sermons that enrich your faith.

I did, and I'm so glad that I did.

(Brothers aren't always right).

How did you find your church Pilgrim?

Yeah ... there is a lot to be said for church shopping.

It's a long story......

I hadn't attended church for years - I found the idea of some being "chosen" for eternal life, whilst others were rejected didn't accord with the Jesus story of always being on the lookout for the lost sheep........

(It made Heaven sound like an exclusive country club.)

When my husband was diagnosed with leukaemia he said he wished to return to church -and would I go with him?

Naturally, I said yes.

Some of my kind neighbours were Anglicans - and so, whilst John was in hospital, I attended the local Anglican church with them.

I liked the people and the minister - but I found the focus on feeling smug about being part of the chosen - and their views on homosexuality repugnant.

The minister visited John in hospital, and he was disturbed that she didn't believe in evolution. He was so downcast I said I would find us another church......

A Catholic priest in the hospital chapel told me about the progressive church movement. This was all news to me. He suggested that as I was a Protestant I should make enquiries with the Uniting Church in Australia Head Office.

I did so - and was told that John and I might like to worship at Pitt St Uniting Church in the city.

We both felt right at home there. After John died I understood what being part of a faith community meant.

I found the same thing here at Wondercafe.

That's why, despite minor irritations from time to time, I intend to support both for as long as I'm able.

A sense of gratitude compels me.........

Sooo, I suggest you ring up your chosen denomination's head office - tell them your position on faith - and see if they can match you up. (This all presupposes that you're fortunate to line in a city or large town.)