Wow - that's a bit extreme! Did that person not think to look both ways before he or she stepped off the curb? What about the driver? Was he or she not paying proper attention? It sounds like a whole series of unfortunate events led to the untimely death of this person - not just the comment I made six months ago.

A white lie is one that is not meant to hurt someone's feelings. Usually the white lies I have told have gone something like this, "I'm feeling like I could use some alone time tonight because I have been pretty busy lately." I think it would be a lot nicer to hear that than, "I really don't want to hang out with you tonight because if I spend any more time talking to you today one of us is going to leave here on a stretcher." Those feelings may well be gone in a day or two - at which point I would gladly spend some time with that person. 

stephenb2012,

What would you think of a person who, when presented with a newborn, will spit on it and say the newborn is bad.

Are they lying?

Someone from Seattle visiting Denver says that water boils at 100 degrees centigrade?  Are they lying?

Three different people in cars in the US see, for a few seconds, a black man lying down on the road and standing over him is a police officer.

One of them reports to his husband that the man has stolen something and has just been caught.

One of them texts her girlfriend that a man had tripped and a cop was helping him out.

The third driver reports to his class later on that they saw a case of police brutality.

Can it be said that any of those three are lying?  Say we get video testimony showing what 'really happened'...if any of the witnesses reports contradicts that, are they lying, even if what they thought they saw is true?

Just some things to cogitate over :3

you guys miss the point, if it wasnt for the root of the white lie, that person would not be walking down that street, the perosn would not have been hit by the car regardless of the contributing factors... and inna, its not about interpreatation of an event, its about deception that leads to an event..
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lets not look at how to work around the scenario, as i said it is a crude example. the point is a white lie can be just as damaging and consequential to someone, maybe even someone you never met on the other side of the city, six months from now.....
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we have many ways we justify lies to ourselves, the validity of these justifications is really not the point of the thread. so consider one while speaking is not exact in regards to science or mistaken about something is not what i am getting at. its about deception and the chain reaction it may cause.

stephenb2012,

well...your example doesn't make sense to me -- it isn't aboot deception or lying...it is more aboot the random things that happen in life and the cause-effect chain that never stops (the Law of Karma states that we are always influenced by causes that came before us and our actions continue to have effects long after we have finished them).

You should probably try to pick another example :3

Let's try another one for you:

Ok, let's agree on something that only really exists with people's input.  Would you agree that something like justice only really exists with us (y'know, do the crime, do the time kind 'o thang)?  So we have created things like lawyers and courtrooms and judges and jails and stuff like that to make sure that justice happens?  Would you agree?

*blink* *blink* forget it.

No no, let's go with it :3  Let's have a conversation.

If you don't like the justice bit, there are others that you and I can agree on, things like Fairness or Equality...just let me know and then we can continue :3

What's the point of your example, stephen? Are you trying to suggest that the "white lie" caused the death? More likely a careless pedestrian or driver did. The white lie played NO role in it whatsoever. Sure, it's why they were there at the time, but that didn't cause the death. Carelessness on the part of someone likely did.

How about this scenario instead? You don't want to go to the restaurant so you use the "it's closed anyway" lie per above. They tell someone else, who actually checks and find out it is open. They accuse their friend of lying  and the friend points out that they heard it from you. A relationship (friendship, in this case), possibly two, is now in need of repair because of the lie.

Should we try to be honest in our dealings with other people? Of course.

Do lies result in deaths? Yes. the US government (or someone in a position to know better) lying about the presence of WMDs in Iraq caused a lot of deaths. Someone telling a blind person that the light is green when it is not is causing a death.

But a "white lie", and this scenario in particular, generally does not. Where white lies are concerned, it's relationships that are usually on the line, not lives. And, in some cases, a well-timed "white lie" can save a relationship and even (albeit rarely) a life.

Mendalla

Lets suppose for a moment that the person in the crude example told the truth.  'No, I don't want to go to that restaurant with you.'     His acquaintence feels insulted, hurt and angry.   But gradually he gets over it and is delighted when a new friend suggests that they go to that restaurant.   So they turn right at the intersection and start towards the restaurant.  As he thinks about it he remembers how insulted, hurt, and angry he felt when his first friend was so rude to him.  The anger rushes back.  Without thinking he steps out in front of a bus full of Sunday School children.  The driver slams on the breaks.  One of the children falls out of her seat, hits her head, has a concussion and dies.    Who is to blame?

Let's say that, despite not wanting to, you agree to go to the restaurant with your friend.  That night the restaurant, unknowingly and unintentionally, served contaminated food, and you and your friend both wound up at the ER, having your stomachs pumped (after suffering some very painful symptoms).  In this case, that white lie would have SAVED a lot of trouble, rather than caused it.  At least as probable a xcenario as yours.  Since it would have saved you both a lot of pain, suffering and inconvenience, wouldn't the white lie have been good?

  Taking the original scenario. 

   The person in question doesn't white lie.   They say that they want to stay in and don't want to see the friend.   The friend is disappointed and maybe upset.    Six months later the friend is with someone else and they decide go to a restaurant.  The same restaurant that in the original scenario the person lied about being closed.    Since the lie didn't occur, it doesn't stop them. 

 They go.  Someone comes in a robs the restaurant at gunpoint.  Things get awful and shots are fired.  The friend gets caught in the cross fire and is paralyzed. 

In this scenario if six months ago the original friend had said a 'white lie' the friend would not be paralyzed for life. 

The point.  Cause and effect just doesn't work that way in the real world.   With this 'six month' later type scenario the 'white lie' could just as easily kept the friend from harm as it's suggested by the OP that it led to harm.

So it's not only crude it just doesn't work in the first place. 

*blink* *blink*

I won't tell a white lie. stephenb2012, you drive me crazy.

stephenb,

I think I see your point.  But your first example is downright bizarre (and leads into discussions other than where I think you wanted to go).  So lets focus on Mendall's re-write instead.

As Seeler points out in her post, both the white lie and the truth have the potential to damage the realtionship.

A lie is a lie no matter how big or small -- God's attitude towards lying is one of anger and hatred.

              Hosea 4:1
              Psalms 5:6
              Proverbs 6:16-19; 12:22

        A.   This includes flattery (Psalms 5:9; 12:2; 62:4) and so-called 
              "little white lies" (1 John 2:21 "No lie is of the truth.")

SB

your suggesting for every lie there is a consequence, this theory has no room for Gods Nature, which is Love, Mercy & Grace 

sounds like a term of endearment to me CH

So... someone tells a lie and God's attitude is one of anger and hatred?

Let's extrapolate.... my child tells a lie. What happens when I take the attitude of God?

And... what will we say of God on the cross facing the whole array of liars and murderers? Anger and hatred?

My account suggests: "Forgive them. They do not know what they are doing?"

Hi GeoFee

Yes Geofee you see God hates the sin but loves the sinner ----when you commit a sin God still loves GeoFee but He doesn't like the lie . That is Agape love ---God loves the person but not the act if it goes against His commandments  . 

Blessings  

I think this says why I think some lies are vital for us all (Santa, Faeries, even G_d).  It is from 'Hogfather', the movie adaptation of the Terry Prachett book.  In this scene, Death and Susan have just saved the Hogfather, which is their civilization's version of Santa Claus.

Enjoy.

Suppose for instance the doctor has been in where a man lays on his deathbed.  He checks him over.  "It won't be long now," he whispers to the nurse and the man's wife.   The wife sits down beside him and takes his hand.   He opens his eyes and calls for her.   "I'm right here." she tells him.   "Don't leave me."    "I won't.  I'll be right here beside you."    He grips her hand which she takes to mean that he hears and understands.  He relaxes and settles into a slow breathing pattern.

Hours pass.  The doctor comes in periodically, and checks the man's vitals.  Each time he shakes his head, surprised that the heart is still beating, the lungs still breathing however slowly and irregularly.  More time.  The woman begins to feel uncomfortable.  She has to go to the bathroom.  Gentle she slips her hand from his and leaves the room.  

The man wakes up, looks around frantically, tries to raise himself from the bed, calls her name and colapses.  The woman returns to the room to see the nurse with the stestascope checking for vitals but he is gone.   She promised that she wouldn't leave his side, but she did.  And he died alone, calling for her.

White lie?   In hindsight maybe  she  shouldn't have made the promise.   But his death seemed eminent.  Her promise brought him comfort.   How could she have refused him?

seeler,

is that a story about a lie or a story about a pledge taht, for reasons beyond one's control, could not be kept? 

(and then there is a real possibility that he, at some level, needed her to be out of the room so that he could die)

Gord - its just a story.    But its meant to show that even with the best of intentions we cannot be 100% honest all the time. 

could you imagine if the world could speak the truth for one day. we recieve so much grace.

In all reality our social structures could not sustain that.  And that is even if we could all agree on what truth is.

Good point GW

i would say... speak the truth , let these 'structures' within our lives collapse ,we will still be here, in my opinon, truth is a spirit within you, those of the truth will know it, and agree. and that road may be harder at times.

23And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Are you proposing some kind of Christian anarchism? In some ways, not a bad idea. Some of those structures probably need to collapse. However, tear down too many supporting walls and I suspect that a lot of good will be lost with the bad. Truth-telling needs to be combined with wisdom and compassion, in my experience.

Mendalla

Maybe. Or maybe not.

Scenario 1:

"Honey, does this dress make me look fat?"

Truth: "Yup. It adds about 60 pounds to you." (Ducking as the frying pan flies past my head!")

Or:

White lie: "You look fabulous!" (Hugs and kisses)

Scenario 2:

Invitation to friends soon after they've had a baby.

"Meet little Junior."

Truth: "What an ugly baby!" (End of friendship.)

Or:

White lie: "Oh he's so cute!" (Enjoyable evening with friends)

Scenario 3 (You'll like this one - or maybe not):

So, God sends Samuel to anoint David as King of Israel (that's why he was filling his horn with oil) but to make sure Saul doesn't realize what's happening he's to pretend he's just going to make a sacrifice. In other words, Samuel received a divine instruction to tell a little tiny lie about what his real purpose was.

I commiserate, m'man.  Humanity has so much potential, so much curiosity, so much ability, we are given so much grace, yes, yet...

So many people, so many civilizations have come up and tried to deal with the 'human condition'.

We have great capacities.  I have a friend who was part of a special university experiment in accelerated learning, where it would take 6 months to do 4 years of university.  The experiment was stopped by officials of the state because they were afraid/they couldn't figure out how their society would cope with that.

Even simple things like I was taught, in 5 or so minutes, how to run off all of the Prime Ministers of Canada, just by assigning a little story mnemonic to each of them.

We are capable of so much.  I think that our societies in general are geared toward their past -- what worked in the past is good; blind faith.  Stability.  Conformity.  A certain amount of that makes sense (and we need to protect people from the griefers/trolls/psychotics-with-power of the world)...

So what to do?

well, thats between God and Samuel, i dont think he intended to give humanity the green light to lie by our own evil desires. we know God makes exceptiions, but can we deem those exceptions to ourselve at a whim?.....its not about a instant change around the world, but more of a "it starts with us' kinda thing anyway. such things as the 'ugly baby' and such kinda comes from a bad place in that persons heart,such thinigs as the superficial association does not take away from that babies 'beauty'... that may be the issue. the fact is, the person isnt required to speak about their personal appreciation of the cuteness of the baby, there are many ways to handle that situation without lying. maybe just say something else , or nothing, deal with it truthfully. thats sort of the issue, we trade in truth for a 'easy road' at times....for every scenario you can say to make light of it, i could draw up a very real one....its the fundamantals i am speaking of. in my opinon, there is much to consider.
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