I have never seen the Devil but then again I have never seen God either.

You sound like you need a hobby, CH.  (just kidding)  Used to believe in a devil; had a heckuva time trying to figure out what he was doing in God's court in the first chapter of Job; now I don't worry so much about it, because not so sure anymore we really need one... we can be led astray all by ourselves,  (Though I still think I dated his/her sister back in the early to mid 80's, but that's another story...)  To believe in God does not necessarily require belief in a devil, imo. 

The devil or satan is an invention of the early middle eastern tribes.  This concept, perhaps from Mesopotamia, was invented to explain the evil in the world.  It is the personification of evil.

Shalom

Mate

I'd really like to hear that story, red.

 The minister (He was also a prof at the Atlantic School of Theology) in my UCC when I was a teen, use to say that the devil was in the church, more so than outside the church.

The devil is just one side of God.

We should talk, I dated the devil's brother 5 years ago..

Alex, that made me laugh out loud. I have had two big laughs today. Good for the soul.

You might find this an interesting read

The books of Adam and Eve  is a Jewish pseudepigraphical group of writings that details the lives of Adam and Eve after the fall, and theirt ongoing struggles with Satan. Of the particular intrest is the reason Satan gives Adam for his ongoing persecution. According to Satan, God expelled him from heaven because Satan refused to worship Adam.

The devil is a wonderful mythological and literary figure. He/she symbolizes that little niggling voice that leads us astray, tries to get us to mock the values we profess, lures us into hypocrisy. He is no more or less than our own shadow side, Darth Vader to our Anakin Skywalker if you like. Fighting the Devil is really just trying to maintain our compassion and respect for others against those forces which urge us to hate, harm, or use them. Which is why Satan makes for a much more entertaining character than that hoary old guy in the sky whose nose Old Scratch keeps tweaking.

The American fantasist Clark Ashton Smith wrote a great little story on this very theme called "Schizoid Creator".  Far from his best work, but an amusing take on the theme of God and the Devil being two sides of the same coin. Fortunately, Smith's work is mostly PD now, so it's available online:

http://www.eldritchdark.com/writings/short-stories/188/schizoid-creator

Mendalla

Personally I believe the devil is literally real and resides in hell, although the book of Job suggests he isn't (yet) bound there.

If we have a God of good, then we necessarily need its antithesis: a God of evil.

If, however, God is beyond dualities, then one God will suffice.

I, personally, think that God is beyond all fragmentations and dualities. Godly intelligence is transcendental, unitive, synthetical, and nondualistic. We humans, however, are implicated in and blinded by dualities. But we can transcend the illusiory world of dualities and enter the heavenly realm of nonduality.

"But when the which is perfect has come, then the fragmentation will end."

1 Cor 13:10

There is no satan or devil in the creation story -- it is a serpent.

"satan" is the english transliteration of a Hebrew word which means" adversary" -- this is the basic idea associated with Satan in the OT -- in Job and Zechariah, Satan is depicted as a member of God's court whose duty it was to accuse human beings before God.  The only other place that satan is mentioned in the OT is 1 Chronicles 21 where the name seems to be understood more as a general tendency toward evil rather than a specific personality.

It is during the late post-exilic period (after 200 BCE) that the idea of dualism took off, and Jewish thought began to talk about a leader of the forces of evil -- using different names: the devil, Belial, Apollyon, Beelzebub, and so on -- Satan came to be the most usual name.  In Greek, Satan was translated as "The devil," and during this time, suddenly the figure of the serpent in Genesis 3 came to be identified as the devil.

Much modern thought about Satan owes its origins to John Milton's "Paradise Lost" and not to Biblical writings.

My approach to NT writings, where Satan appears frequently, is to take very seriously the claim that evil is real, that we find ourselves tempted to be self-serving rather than servants, and that the "values" expounded upon in our culture are often the very opposite of what God's kingdom is all about.  I do not need to believe in a personified evil.  In the end, I wish to be self-aware, engaged critically in the world, and fully relying on God.

shalom

 It's hard to determine who the real devil is.  There's so much competition for the job.  If you're looking for him/her, try the House of Commons first, then the Senate. Then again, one of my American friends said it was Barak Obama.

The whole devil-hell thing is pretty foreign to me. They, as Christians know them, simply do not exist in Judaism.

Yet, like in all societies and mythologies, the afterlife is pondered. What happens after death? For some, a religion is the answer to those questions.

As Clergychikita says in Hebrew, HaSaTaN -"the satan"  is the adversary. "The obstacle" is also used in translation, so too is "the accuser". In Judaism there is no independent  power or authority to this figure and it is not a God vs. Devil thing. Nobody and nothing is to compete with God. Jews go back to Isaiah 45:5-7. God is boss (a solo act) and HaSaTaN is an employee. Often in Judaism the comparison is that HaSaTaN it is like a prosecuter, with God as judge. That all are subordinate to God, is why in the Hebrew Scriptures you see HaSaTaN asking God's permission to tempt Job.

I once heard a lecture by a woman on this topic. I have forgotten more of it than I recall. But, she spoke on language and specifically touched on demons. The word was DAEMON. She said that they could be good - that they could be lesser gods and hero spirits. She told us that it meant "natural energies or spirits". That in the Christian Scriptures, it could simply mean Mary could have been a bit pagan. That it is development of a separate religion and actually demonizing those who deviate from a developing orthodoxy that made a demon something evil. 

So, I do not believe in the "devil" as some know it.

Do I believe in evil? Yes.

Where does evil reside? I do not believe that it is contained in hell or one figure from mythology. For me, where isn't it possible?

To steal a line from The Shadow, "Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of men"?

This topic reminds me of the song "Where Evil Grows" . . .

"evil grows in the dark, where the sun it never shines
evil grows in cracks and holes, and lives in people's minds
evil grew it's part of you and now it seems to be
that every time I look at you evil grows in me"

Hi crazyheart,

I try not to think about the Devil.  Of course I try not to think of car wrecks or house fires or other bad things that may happen.  That doesn't mean either of those things will just cease to exist.

I'm not in a car wreck every day or a house fire either for that matter.  I seem to be a magnet for random calls to 9-1-1 but so long as the operators at 9-1-1 don't have a problem with it I think I'm okay.

The Devil pops up with about the same kind of frequency (and that is not me blaming either car wrecks or house fires on the Devil.  It is just a frequency comparison.

I don't think that belief in one necessitates a belief in the other.  The two are not some kind of bargain deal where you just want the one but because of wonky packaging you have to take the other.

I don't know that I should believe in the Devil.  I would love the luxury of it simply being a choice.  My life experience did not play out that way.

Politically correct?  Well the book of Job has Satan responding to a question from God by saying that he has been walking through the earth and back and forth across it.  That seems kinda vague but appropriate perhaps.

I doubt it was the head honcho himself.  I have no difficulty believing that whatever it was, was demonic.  And it wasn't actually seen so much as felt.

That sounds pleasantly conversational.  My experience with communication has been decidedly not pleasant and rather unconversational.

Hopefully that is all it remains for you.  I have gotten much closer than I ever wanted to.  I've shared the whole experience elsewhere in WonderCafe.  I'll poke around and see if I can find the thread as a reference.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Thanks John. I remember and hope you find it.

Hi crazyheart,

Well, that was quite the effort.

Here is the thread:

http://www.wondercafe.ca/discussion/health-aging/schizophrenia-or-possession

Grace and peace to you.

John

John

Thanks.

Shalom

Mate

I like Heinlein's version of the devil in the book of Job.

Where it is God who is evil and the devil is the victim of Jesus.

If you believe in the devil then you must believe that God is equally as guilty as the devil because the book of Job says God gave the devil permission to torment Job.

If you had a child would you give a child molester permission to play with your child just once or for a few weeks?

I do not believe in God or the devil.   If either were real I would have met one of them by now for one and for two I used to study Greek mythology.  Okay I watched Xena and Hercules on tv.   There was a moral lesson in every story but that does not make Aphrodite, Ares or Zues real as in tangible.  I think the Bible is just like Greek mythology and by mythology I do not mean "not real"  I do not believe that any person in the bible existed including God, Jesus, or the devil.  I especially found Hercules inspiring.

I think the devil was created to blame the bad things on.   Like war, a person beating his wife, murders, people dying of diseases.   Much like Hitler rose to power uniting the Germans against a common enemy...the Jews.   Christianity became united against an enemy, the devil.

Without the whole going to hell theology what purpose does the devil have?

RevJohn;

I read your supernatural experience.  It sent shivers down my spine like the first time I watched the exorcist.   How can you be sure that you have not gotten it backwards like Heinlein suggests and the "malevolent presence" you felt was actually the devil and not God?

I could tell of similaar experiences when I was in Bible College where we were fighting demons and we always won.

Hi Serena,

I can't be sure.  Of course, there is no assurance that Heinlein got it right.

Grace and peace to you.

John

You sound like you need a hobby, CH.  (just kidding)

Ya nailed it right there

My hobby is to listen to disfunctional entities post, Jes.

Hi StevieG!

Thank you for a most excellent post!  Couldn't agree with you more!  I often find it disturbing how some Christian denominations put God and Lucifer/devil/Satan on almost equal footing with God barely hanging on by his fingernails.  We all know who signs their paycheques!    Didn't they just arrest some Christian militia in Michigan who were stockpiling weapons to go to war with Jesus against the antiChrist?  Sigh.

Shabbat Shalom

I have to agree StevieG, that was a good post. It's the d-evil in the hearts of men that drives us to madness.

Materialism is the opposite of the forces of spiritualism. The forces of evil in this world is the love of money and power, whereas the forces of spirit is wrought out in love in service to our fellow man.

(And yes, I mean 'man', in the sense that 'man' contains and represents both positive and negative, male and female; 'our fellow human' or 'our fellow person' just doesn't sound right)

In the Heaven of Christianity we are planting gardens and singing gregorian chant.  In Heinlein's hell we have different hot sex partners each night and do not worry about std's or pregancy.   In Christianity's hell we are asleep for eternity.  I will take either hell over Heaven any day.  At least Heinlein's hell is something to look forward to.

It may be interesting to add that since I have become a student of science I see less of a need for God and  then obviously less of a need for the devil.

As an example people do not get sick because God curses them or because their parents have somehow sinned they get sick because a system in their body is not working properly.  Science has made many advances to improve the quality of a person's life and the length.  It is, to explain simply, not an act of God to heal someone nor is it an act of God to make them sick.  It is simply within nature or not taking care of the body and then x happens.  For example women who do not consume enough calcium are more prone to osteoporosis later in life.  It is not because they were bad or their parents were bad it is is a natural consequence either of poor nutrition by choice or poor nutrition due to lack of available food supply.    So is the same with many illnesses.   Some forms of cancer are due to a small mistake at the cellular level where the cells keep dividing and then the cancer mastizes simply because our heart and veins etc.  keep recirculating the blood.

In the past when we did not have scientific knowledge we assumed that sickness came from the devil because sickness is bad.  Now we know what causes many of our illness, we know about prevention, and we also know many cures.  Less of a need to pray to God?   Less of a need to blame the devil.

Hi Serena,

Not according to the scriptures.

So Heinlein posits heaven as consequence free hedonism.  What if the afterlife, just like this present one, isn't all about us?

It depends upon which "hell" we are talking about.  We need to consider that there is more than one word in the Greek and Hebrew which we translate into the English as "Hell."  I think this means that there is a lot of confusion about what Hell is or isn't.

Which would be acceptable if it was a choice one actually gets to make.  I don't think that we get to choose what our heavens or hells actually look like so pretending there is choice where choice doesn't exist is probably just avoidance.

Grace and peace to you.

John

No. In Christianity's Heaven we are praising and worshiping GOD. In hell lost souls are burning in a fiery pit for all eternity. I've heard it said that the worse agony than the fire, is the permanent seperation from GOD.

As I said....Gregorian chant.

Maybe.  Maybe they sleep.  There is enough scriptural evidence one both sides

1.  roasting and toasting for all eternity

2.  sleep forever

The Bible itself is confused on the topic.

How can you be sure separation from God is a bad thing?  How do you know that God is not already separate from many people?  As in the Rwandan massacre?  Do you really think God was there?

Yup.  According to scriptures.  Worshipping God.  (gregorian chant) and tending the garden is also based on the scriptures.

The devil is a universal entity according to scripture and there are plenty of references to him as a litteral being.

For the sake of a biblical reference, however I'm not sure how he is translated or defined in other writings, but I think they tend to point to the same idea of evil or some how insubordinate to the powers of holiness.

Fallen angel in the beginning.....yes. 

Tempted job and the hearts of man... yes. 

"Your enemy, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he can devour.... resist him and he will flee from you.

It is through thoughts and intents and the snare of sin that gets a foothold in ones life unbeknownst to them and they are enticed by iit  and dragged away.

Jesus was tempted by the devil for 40 days in the wilderness.

Soul sleep was a teaching by Herbert w armstrong of the world wide church of God and was considered in heresy and abandoned to follow the true teaching by Jesus where he gave clear definitions of "where the worm dieth not." "A place of weeping and gnashing of teeth." 

Ultimatelty it is a place of absolute separation from all that is holy and good (God) and replaced with all that can be bad. Outer Darkness and the fire is not quenched.

It was not prepared though for souls, but the devil and his angels and the beast and the false prophet of revelation.

Could be a lot of metaphorical symbolism, but again it requires whether one takes the biblical view as absolute.

"just my thoughts."

He exists  according to scripture as a spirit being and is the cause in some cases of the wars, and murders and chaos that seemes  to always have been there since the beginning. If it is about adhering to righteousness and the attributes of a personal God and what he embodies into man. Then it is safe to say that there are attributes in one who follows the pattern of this world. And are evil and of the devil and his ways of selfishness, pride, greed, lust, malice, jealousy, rage and so fourth.  

Although not omniscient, ominipotent or omni present as God, still considered a powerful force to reckon with if you approach the scriptures from genesis to revelation in entire context and interpretation, not necessarily some books written about him much later based on assumptions.   

This is what has been taught for so long, Satan being the reason for all our problems.

LOL!!!!

He was the introduction of evil.

Satan hasn't been a problem since his bloodlust was satisfied at Calvary.

He is a prodical son.

The shedding of innocent blood has always been for quenching the bloodlust of the god of this world.

The holy scriptures are loaded with expression of both "God" of the covenant, & the "god" of this world.

The Holy Spirit & the baptism, is for the discernment of both expressions within scripture.

The Holy Spirit is key to discernment of what is of God, & what is not.

Bolt

This is what has been taught for so long, Satan being the reason for all our problems.

LOL!!!!

He was the introduction of evil.

Satan hasn't been a problem since his bloodlust was satisfied at Calvary.

He is a prodical son.

The shedding of innocent blood has always been for quenching the bloodlust of the god of this world.

The holy scriptures are loaded with expression of both "God" of the covenant, & the "god" of this world.

The Holy Spirit & the baptism, is for the discernment of both expressions within scripture.

The Holy Spirit is key to discernment of what is of God, & what is not.

Does not one know the difference between good & evil, blessing & calamity, regardless of which spirit one adopts?

Knowing the difference, & making a wise choice is two distinctly different things.

Bolt

Is the devil, hell all around us?

Modern neuroscience tells us that the mind is all that is outside the body and WEBSTER defines intellect as being all that is outside the body of will ... a mystical separation? That's A'B'D in ancient tongues!

If intellect and mind are the same thing, isn't that the devil to one that follows Love (God)alone? That is withoutout justice and understanding fro the alien to man ... and man didn't want to know ... free-choice!

If we escape the body of will after death ... into the surrounding mind ... would that be like 'elle for those that din't wish to think? It is an enigma for those that like to stay in the dark ... perpetual mystery without thought. Blind men can do a lot of damage rummaging around in an unbalanced temple ... sculling place of man before the ultimate emmersion! Did I tell you about Hellen Duncan ... the modern law of witches? It raises a whole pool of considerations ... a well-thing for isolated people to dwell upon!

Get it together folks ... divined persona complex is unhealthy ... God and the devil as a duality ... Janus ... with mysterious Tiye ... the story continues and mankind seems to know less and less each day as the tide dilutes available wisdom into pure unaccountable actions without proactive stuff ... future thinking? Is that a vision of just a small view through the por'hole of man's mind ... threshold? What a vision of man mucking around without a pool of clear thought ... two sides of time?

It that's a literal devil and we are not very knowledgeable about all tongues ... where does that leave us ... in the riva 've al Stix? One could use eM to draw lines in the san ... that outside man's wisdom ... like myth .. they sae!

 The Christian concept of the devil seems to be to be an example of spiritual evolution. I've always been intrigued by the fact that in the OT, Satan seems much more a partner for God than a rival to God - the one who almost performs a service for God by testing the faith of God's people and who tempts God's people to turn away. The passages in Job and Zechariah seem to work this way, as does the serpent story in the creation narrative, if one accepts the NT interpretation of the serpent as the devil. Satan seems to become much more malevolent in the NT, although in relation to Jesus Satan still seems to perform that tempter/tester role (ie, Jesus in the wilderness.) It really seems to be in Peter that Satan becomes definitely associated with evil, a concept much more developed by the apocalyptic literature. I think the early church needed to develop a concept of why the Kingdom of God wasn't clearly inaugurated with the coming of Jesus (or the resurrection of Jesus.) Satan was a convenient explanation - the church was existing within a cosmic battle between good (God) and evil (Satan.)

My own take on Satan? I believe that there is obviously something that causes us to fall away from God or to be tempted to choose ways other than God's. I also believe that those temptations are a spiritual force of some sort that can be usefully identified as Satan. Now, I don't believe that Satan is a red-skinned devil with a pointy tail and a pitchfork; neither do I believe in hell as a place of eternal punishment with fire and brimstone. I believe Satan to be a personification (useful if explained properly) of the power of evil (and I believe that "evil" is more than just the sum total of all the evil acts that humans commit; I believe there is a tangible albeit spiritual reality to evil.) I believe that hell is in the same sense tangible albeit spiritual - it is the state of being separated from God; the state of living in the absence of love. "Eternal damnation" would occur then if our separation from God is so complete that it can't be overcome either in this life or beyond it. Hell is not so much a place we might be sent as it is a state that we might choose. Now, whether anything could truly separate us for all eternity from God and God's love is another question. 

Not talking about a horror movie imagery or "pitchforks" idea but there is description enough of A: personal being  B: widespread goes roaming to and fro in the earth  C: leads men astray by thinking a certain way, for  example "He told Peter : "Get behind me Satan, your not thinking as God thinks, but Man."

Cast out a LEGION of demons from the possessed  man. Again, depends on the litteralist view on that, possessions and healings and miracles.

tempted Jesus 3 times in the wilderness.

So is he behind war, genocide, adolph Hitlers, lust and pornography, sin and decadence of humanity, crime and killing that are all attitudes of the human heart which are results of the fallen world and sin where the devil does his business until the time of revelations to be prophesied.

Maybe? possibly? perhaps????????????? 

Is not Satan and hell the persona and dimension of a person out of balance in concern to caring and thought? This is the purely psychopathic against the pathological essence. I say essence because many people do not believe in passions (Gods, Furies)  and soul (mind, psyche, ether we stand upon). Is this uproarious to those that span the two reals in balance? Perhaps why those that know a fringe of the unknowable are called crazy under Roman impressions ... relationary to hard impact ... alchemy like that going on in cyclotrons, accelerators and other gravid devices like the brain that collect light in dark form of the word? Ode things to conjure, meditate ... be penne seive about? Sometime IT filters out ...

Then to a Roman Theology ... a thinking man is dangerous and thus made immoral, un-ethical and illegal under a Roman Roue' ... that the Caesars desires were final! Does this appear a a wee bit childish ... as directed to a man that some say is the father of modern civilization? No wonder our civilization is SIC ... only an approximate appearance of the former's elf! The devilish side of the institution giggles with subliminal humour ... for mankind (Mon) does not wish to know ... it compromises the desires with th'ought ... a sin .... don't go there! That's the deux ... some balance in humours needed as prerequisite to take on the imaginary form ... like Unreal Numbers eh ... outa the realm of mortal thought ... myth? Go fig Ur!

Hi Serena,

Well, if you want to limit worship to gregorian chant no one here can really stop you.  If you intend to dictate to me that worship can only mean gregorian chant I'm not prepared to accept such a dumbing down.

It is scriptural to tend gardens.  I'm hard-pressed to find any particular scripture that depicts heaven as chores on the family farm.  Care to share it?

What do you base that insistence on?

Your historical grasp here is non-existent.  Christianity was not created by the upper classes of society.  It has been twisted by some to serve the upper classes.  Invariably that tactic fails and gives birth to a reformation or renewal of the Church.

The error is not that of scripture.  The error is that of interpretation by individuals who insist that a strong spirituality makes them better interpretors of scripture than others who took a more academic route.  The belief that all instances of the English word "Hell" make all of the divergences in the ancient script where the words used employ more nuance wrong is pure ignorance.

Even if we grant that your argument is true that does not automatically grant that you the ability to structure heaven and/or hell however you choose.

Back to your position.  Logically, if the either/or option doesn't work one is looking at a both/and scenario.  If neither the either/or or the both/and worked then you are faced with the probablility of neither.

Jumping to the neither immediately from the either/or is a failure in your logic.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I don/t worship at all so it is irrelevant to me but the devil has all the good music so musicians have to go to hell.

Amazing Grace is not much of a higher form of music than Gregorian chant.  You have limited yourself.

I don't read the Bible anymore so I have difficulty separating verses from sermons that I have heard.  I have believed it for a long time and thought an eternity of gardening was slightly better than burning without death in hell but really I was never looking forward to heaven.  I visited a hutterite colony once in the summer.   I was kind of friends with the pastor's wife and they spoke German so I could talk to them.  The pastor and his wife invited me to their home for supper once.  It was a good supper.  Usually, they ate in shifts.  The men had breakfast first.  Then the children.  And then the women.  This was in the big dining hall they showed me.    The pastor's sons were in the basement watching tv after supper.  The pastor's daughters were out with the other women weeding the garden.  They came home at 10:00 PM after their brothers were in bed.  They showed me the garden too.  Sounds very fair doesn't it?  THe pastor told me this was biblical.  I asked him how it was biblical.  He said that the women will be tending the garden in heaven so it is good that they enjoy doing it on earth.    The Pastor's wife also told me that when the men beat their wives the wives would complain to the pastor and he would tell them to submit more so they don't get beat.   THis is also biblical.

My historical grasp is real not nonexistant.   I forgot to mention all the men who use the scripture of submission to abuse their wives and have affairs.

The writers of the Bible claim their structuring of heaven and hell are correct.  Why can't I structure my own heaven and hell?

It is only a failure of my logic because my opinion does not agree with yours.  If my opinion agreed with yours you would say that I was very smart.

Hi Serena,

That may work as opinion.  It does not fly as fact.

Perhaps it isn't much of a higher form.  It is still a different form.  

So your earlier insistence is not so insistent.  Your picture of heaven may owe more to sermons heard than it does to scriptures read.

So him you believe.  Why?

It is biblical only in that they are using a text from the Bible.  The application of the text is decidedly unbiblical.

While Ephesians 5 exhorts a woman to submit it also commands the husband to love.  Nowhere does this passage encourage or permit husbands to beat their wives.

No thanks.  I can think of nothing about that which attracts me.

No your historical grasp is really non-existant.

Actually, the writers of the Bible do not claim their structuring of heaven and hell are correct.  They use a variety of terms in their native tongues which are understood by the folk they are communicating with.  Those terms are translated, often poorly and incompletely, into a singular English word and then folk who have no appreciation of the original variety and assume that the singular English is the word of God go on to spout nonsense.

You are of course free to structure your own heaven and hell, not much point if you don't believe in either.  God is not obligated to abide by the depictions you create for yourself just as God is not obligated to abide by the nonsense spouted by others.  Myself included.

No it is a failure in logic because of the jump I have pointed out.  You looked at one option rejected it and said it must be this other option as if there were no other options in existence.

Not likely.  I would say that your opinion agreed with mine.  That wouldn't make you smart just as disagreement with me doesn't automatically render you dense.

I said that your logic was flawed.  I said that because I believe that it is.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Really?  All Christianity is is a bunch of unproven opinions that attempt to fly around as fact why is my opinion any less of a fact than others?

Not really.  Gregorian Chant we can't understand so it is a waste of time to listen to.  Amazing Grace is a lie so it is also a waste of time to listen to.

It could.

I believe that he is a selfish male.  Christianity makes those.   I do not believe heaven or hell exists really in any form.

I think that is a very Biblical application of the text.   God allowed all that abuse of women in His name.   He did nothing to stop it.  Therefore it is Biblical.  When one is aware of a crime and has the means to stop it that person is equally guilty as the one who physically committed the crime.

You are already living that selfish life so it must attract you.   You falsely accused me of having three extra sockpuppets.  You did this to take care of you so you could earn points with your clique.   If you had thought about taking care of me (as the other) you would have not falsely accused me of having sockpuppets.   So you are taking care of yourself and you are only claiming to take care of others.  This is actually the crux of Christianity really.  Take care of yourself by hurting others, brainwash others into not taking care of themselves and taking care of you...then claim that you actually take care of others before yourself.

It is actually a good current grasp of the scripture.  You are currentyl trying to get me not to care about myself and care about others in the name of Christianity.  

God is not obligated to do anything.   He is (if He exists at all) exactly like Heinlein describes.  He plays games with people's lives and then expects those people to worship him and love him just like the selfish guy syndrome I have named.   What is different is that we may not have a way out (hell) like Heinlein describes.  If God exists we are all hopelesslessly doomed for eternity.

I don't like your options and your options are not the only options either.

You said that my logic is flawed because I do not agree with you.  Your belief that my logic is flawed does not make it flawed either.

I think this concept is a result of human nature to see things in terms of dualities.

The form of the classical Christian duality is the war between Good and Evil. The duality is one of conflict, and so in order to have God who leads the "Good" you must have someone to lead the "evil"

Not every religion or philosophy sees the universe in the same way. Many Pagan philosophies are cooperative rather than conflicting, i.e. the concept of male and female aspects uniting to form the universe. In a cooperative duality there is no "Good" vs "Evil" armies, and so mo need for Satan, or any concept like Satan.

If anyone is interested in a longer and much more pedantic version, here is part of an essay I wrote on the subject years ago.

The Chinese have a philosophy that rather similar to what you describe for pagans, Witch. The famous Yin and Yang represent complimentary, rather than conflicting, pairs of opposites that balance each other. "Evil", if you want to call it that, is that which disturbs this balance rather than being that which is opposed to good. For instance, during the Imperial dynasties, earthquakes, droughts, and other natural disasters were supposed to be a sign that the Emperor had somehow disrupted the balance of nature and was therefore out of favour with heaven. It's a view of the world that I find much more appealing than the Good-Evil/Light-Dark dichotomy that you find in the Western monotheist traditions (Light and Dark do exist, of course, but are simply another balanced pair, not emblematic of conflict).

Mendalla

I never realized how effective this question is for revealing peoples' cosmologies.  Fascinating.

Duality is a basic form of new clear physics ... if you split the atom into parts ... all that is left is isolated and variable light ... individual awareness? If only we could get ID all together as a hidden driving force ... emotive ... desire! Then the latent thought ... awareness one coming the other goan ...