I believe there is some kind of force or energy or whatever that I call God.  I don't think it matters much whether this force is described as one or many, male or female, or any other human characteristics.  Those are just different ways of seeing the same thing.

Yaaaawn, boy this one sounds interesting. I guess I';ll throw in my personal opinion again as I gaze at the title of it. Some of the other posts are getting long/dragged out and personal despite some reasonable info from those involved. 

I'll tell you this........ I see life in two different ways, the first is that it is beautiful and awesome and inspiring and full of the unspoiled majesty of nature that started from the beginning of time. I see a serene peacefulness in lakes, rivers, forests, mountains, valleys, flowers, plants, creatures. The amazing engineering of the planet.... the sciences which I like to read. Even stopping to look at an ant hill is intriguing to me.

But then on the other spectrum I see humans have come along and ruined it in some way, shape or form. Now the miracle of life is precious of all, and the reasoning, intellect and basically just the brain itself is miraculous and still can't be fully explained/ fathomed. Just look at humanity on the planet??? humans are capable of good....and definitely bad.

But ever since the dawn of man, depending how far we can travel back historically, there has been a track record of evil. Evil that came about in sin (if believed) that is present in man. Or we are just evolved neanderthal ogres that have increased our imaginative, thinking capacity over time and began revolutions- Renaiisance Industrial ect. 

We've evolved our own primordial selves... our social structure and morals. Whether they be from a God or not. We are subject to ourselves and our own brute cruelty  when you sum up all the events of earth's history... there has been plenty of it. 

On the one hand, I like to think that a personal God as I have grown up sort of learning about  as many also, is the reason behind our lack of truly understanding or knowing ourselves. And what is best for us.

I see the world sometimes personally, (and if I watch the news too much) as disgusting, dispicable, rotten, insane, evil, grotesque, miserable, undesirable, unloving, uncaring and so forth. These are actually descriptions of it in the bible. For it says,,, "Out of the hearts of man coming nothing good.... only evil thoughts and intentions.

Sure.... religion is brainwashing. and creates fundamentalists and narrow minded ridgid right wing radicals. But I think the world on a grand scale even more so nowadays is headed for something..........cataclysmic or disastrous maybe.(Not neccesarily due to global warming) I still wake up and its a sunny day... the birds are chirping... I have my health still.But what I witness, around me, what is pumped at me in daily media messages... is what the bible describes. Uncannily... I can't figure out why but certain scriptures seem cut and dried to me about the condition of humanity on the planet. Not to be entirely negative,,, there is still the good. But when looked at overall... it looks scary to me. The personification of a God and whatever that God is manifested from one religion to the next adds a sense of comfort to countless millions and more and more all the time because you do not know the future of this world.

Houseman,

I completely agree that the natural world is a wonderous, magnificent and mysterious thing, one which our current scientific understanding cannot possibly (as of yet) hope to explain, and yet I do not see why we must then pull an ad ignorantium argument and say god explains it all. I couldn't really tell from your answer whether you believe in God or not, mostly I just saw an account of the state of the world. I agree that the world is in dire straights, but also believe that it has always been that way. I think that a lot of what you are talking about has nothing to do with faith, either which way. The fact that the Bible predicted some sort of terrible future is incidental.

 

Siege

MistsOfSprings,

So would you consider yourself a theist, a deist, a pantheist? Or perhaps your views are most similar to animism?

Siege

Hi Siege:

 

"God" is generally identified as the creative power or force of the universe. I believe the universe to be self-creative or self-generative. For me, there is no external God. The self-creative universe ITself is God, and we are an inseparable part of IT.

Arminius,

Ah, yes, pantheism. "God is everything." So, if the universe (everything) is God, is that not the same thing as saying there is no God? Many physicists refer, as you do, to the unknown elements of the universe (or the universe in general) as "God". They of course, like you, do not believe in a personal and distinct deity.

Siege

Yes, Siege, that's "spiritual atheism," or "atheism in the name of God."

 

If IT (the ALL) is self-creative, then there is no need to call IT God. But one can call IT God if one wants to.

Arminius,

But why even bother calling it God? Could I not equally call it Lord Odin? Why not save others the confusion of sorting through pantheisitc 'gods' and personal gods? Why not just call it, "the universe" or "reality"?

Siege

Actually, Siege, I haven't answered why I believe as I do.

 

My belief is not a doctrinal belief, it is a feeling. I experience the cosmos as a unitive whole, in a state of synthesis, and I experience the whole to be sacred, holy, or divine.

 

This is experiential rather than doctrinal faith, and the truth of my faith is in the experience rather than the interpretations, which I regard as speculative and/or metaphorical.

 

Another word for my kind of belief or theology is "Unitheism."

I believe in God because I have experienced believing and not believing. And when I do not deny the reality of the divine connection to my life my life experience is embellished with a different understanding of life that stretches my brain to take the "road less travelled", whether I encounter fortune or misfortune.

I believe that God  is required to connect us to a deeper understanding to answers that forces us to ask questions.

 

 

 

 

I believe in a Divine presence that I choose to call God.  I believe in the Trinity but tend to connect mostly with the concept of Spirit. 

 

Why do I believe these things?  The brutally honest answer is that the culture in which I was raised believed these things and they were transmitted to me.  It could just have easily been that I was raised worshipping Allah or Mother Earth or a Greek God.  In my faith system I do worship Allah or Mother Earth I just use different names and methods.

 

Why do I choose to believe in the Divine as an adult?  Because I believe in a Sacred presence, something greater than us.  It brings me great comfort.  I appreciate walking in a mystery.  I like the idea that not EVERYTHING in this world needs to be explained....that sometimes a Holy Mystery allows for answers not thought possible (if that makes sense!). 

I am a Calvinist so I believe that I didn't choose God. I am chosen by God through an act of His soveriegn grace.

I'm curious as to why you only want to hear from the monotheists?

...and another is "Christianity"  in that the ENTIRE teaching of Jesus is the Kindgon of God which is among you and in you and in him and should be recognized as in you.

Pure, if not simple.

 

Good question; I "believe" in two: one is all knowing, all- powerful etc., and does nothing.

The other is capable of great power, but is ignorant with divine curiosity...It took her billions of years fashioning life and consciousness in order to learn things...for which She will be grateful. Hence the only good is knowledge the only "evil" is ignorance.

Sounds reasonable t'me...and I "believe" in reasonableness...

Witch,

The reason I asked to hear from monotheists is because I assumed, maybe wrongly, that the vast majority of people on this site are monotheists (as opposed to polytheists, deists, pantheists, etc).

 

Arminius,

You seem to be still simply playing a game of irrelevant semantics. I too glory in the universe and I too am filled with a spiritual reverance for that which I don't, can't and never will understand. However, I don't feel the need to call that spirtuality 'religion' or 'god'. I don't put labels on the uncomprehendable, I simply stand in awe of them.

 

Beshpin,

I agree that the origins of the universe are still unclear. I also agree that christianity presents an accessible version of that beginning. However, so does almost every other major religion that has every existed (from the mythology of the Norse, Greeks, Romans and Egyptians to the Abrahamic religions). Why should the Christian "grace" be better than all the others? As for Pascal's Wager, it has been long proven to be illogical on the grounds that 1.) What if there was a supreme being/afterlife but it was not the one that you believed in? 2.) Let's say God really exists, would he be impressed by "playing it safe"? 

P.S. I'd like you to show me one person who has achieved "perfection" through Christianity.

 

 

 

 

I think I am more of a panentheist, actually.  On the other hand, that changes from time to time.  I guess I'm still in searching mode.   

Siege,"P.S. I'd like you to show me one person who has achieved "perfection" through Christianity."

 

They're all dead.

Hi - Waterfall-- There not dead just in another place.They soon will be back--------------------------------------------------------------------   Siege Wrote-------     P.S. I'd like you to show me one person who has achieved "perfection" through Christian. I give you Jesus . perfection is gained be doing the perfect  will of God. All The Glory Be To God. Airclean33

If one decides to use the word "God" in the use of all faiths and religions, why is that pulling an ad ignorantium argument? For the topic of discussion it implies belief in a creator force or existence outside of ourselves. I gain a little something from each person here, Arminius, whoever. I don't engage a heated debate about the existence of God because I think its useless arguing and making personal attacks. The same God I have learned about could be the same deity that can apply to cosmological origins of another faith. I could say that I believe part of the bible, some of it or all of it. It depends what my mood is and how I personally interpret it.

But generally people who proffess a belief in a creator existence are passed off with blunt calous remarks and antagonism, rudeness and sarcasm. But in society, or the world, there is a lot of problems, thats obvious,  to think there isn't means you either live in a cave, or shut out from society in some ways. People yearn for answers to those questions and wonder why?

In my avatar, you probably recognize its a picture of the famous Michaelangelo painting of Adam pointing his finger and trying to touch with Gods. I just see the symbolic use of it as mans attempt to find God through it all. A biblical verse says- "we see through a glass darkly."

I can claim a belief to an extent in the bible and claim the title of "christian" but I know I can fail miserably because my darker half can show through of my old ways and I swear, get Kim Kardashian on the brain too much and not act as Christ teaches. But it is a road less travelled as mentioned and a learning obedience process. 

Whether or not I say I believe in God and within what context or origin doesn't matter. I was really intrigued by a buddhist temple the other day. I want to go in and check it out, I might even meditate because I have stress in my life right now. Does not necessarily mean i will become a Buddhist. But I can learn about it. I won't keep myself closed off completely. But I also feel a sense of peace when I go to a church with my family. But I can't these days because I work sundays.

Oh well.....  

In my humble opinion, if there is nothing to look forward to, and nothing at the other end of the tunnel. Everything is permissable, because thats where its heading. Theres no explanation for the despair of life ending in suicide, disease, mass murders, war, hatred, hostility, child killing, genocide like Rwanda, maybe it keeps populations in check like the animal world but it is brutal. From the day we are born life is survival mode onward. There really is nothing to live for except the here and now. So we try to wrestle with our ignorant intentions of selfishness and say that we are all thats it and nothing else because we can't prove it.

My own views change within belief in God etc all the time. I ask the same questions and pose the same problems with religion as others I have read here.

So Saddam Hussein will not pay for killing thousands of kurdish people? they had a right to life also, not just his right to be a dictator in a golden palace with golden faucets and mistresses.

Or will Adoph Hitler just move on to another experiential existence unlimited by any  bounds when he passes onto  another life?

And yes, the people brutally murdered in the crusades  by ignorant barbarians who were not truly of Christ and who was not present with them.  

I for one am open to dialogue and even listen to the views expressed.

 

This is fairly close to where I'm at. I use the term "God" very loosely, acknowledging it as a metaphor or image that we put on the primal creative forces of the universe to enable us to engage with them on a more personal level. I'm ultimately an agnostic on whether there really IS a personal God, either a wholly transcendant one like the Abrahamic or a more pantheistic or panentheistic deity like a lot of people here talk about. I use the term because of habit and because that's what other people respond to. For me, the Cosmos and its creative processes are are spiritual and sacred (Divine, if you wish) just by existing, regardless or whether there is a deity/ies involved or not.

 

Mendalla

 

Two points:

The first is there is an evolution in understanding of some divine reality - one can even see this in hebrew scriptures - a move from many gods to a one God.  Thus one can take an anthropoligcal view that religion creates culture and culture creates humans, and then there is an evolution in understanding - Thus the idea is there is a reality that seeks to be known and humans create many ways of picturing that reality and the pictures change in response to shifting ideas and a dynamic divine force.

The other answer is complex and let me give a simplified version of panentheism.  “In” is a metaphor as in the world is ‘in’ God and God is ‘in’ the world.  The claim is there is an interdependence of God and world.  The world depends on God and God depends on the world.  The world depends on God because it is the necessary and eternal source; it is God’s creative act that takes ‘no thing’ into some thing- out of chaos God brings order.  God depends on the world because the nature of God’s actual experience depends on the interaction with finite creatures like ourselves.  God is in the world and the world is in God and God is more than the world.(C.F. Philip Clayton). M Suchocki says God is the supremely related one.

While this can be related to the biblical view of God who relates and seeks to bring God’s kingdom to earth, this also relates to the scientific view of emergence,  Paul Davis suggests the cosmos is an emerging reality between simplicity and complexity.  It is moving to more and more complexity an “interacting system forming a hierarchy of structure.”  This is the lure of God calling self determining reality into new forms of reality.  This is the abstract pole of dipolarism.  In God’s primordial nature- the consistency -is the aim of God to more beauty et al - the pure love or perfect love.  In this sense God is unchanging - in the abstract because can do no other thing then be creative love. God must by necessity desire to love and be in relationship. In God’s consequent nature is the necessity to relating and being affected by the relationship.  God is influenced by the world.

“Creative love” of God is that God aims at the greatest possible good for each individual that can be achieve. The outcome of this aim God only knows when we actualize it.   In “responsive love” of God, God responds sympathetically to the world.  God experiences the evil and joys and pain and sorrows we experience.  In that experience God responses with an aim to wholeness.  Again the biblical understanding of responding and sustaining is given metaphysical grounding.  It is real in the sense of deep empiricism and not just some false hope that we have created.  It is in the very nature of what is.

One final point is evil.  Panentheism offers us a way of understanding it without a God of the gaps or that there is evil in God.  God can only act persuasively, that means cannot force change.  Because of our self determination God could only offer the possibility of enjoying life within and the reality of  suffering pain.  Pain is a given in evolution and our response, by God’s Grace,  is to move to joy and healing.    Even divine power cannot create the good without the risk of the evil.  God can only know things when they happen and respond out of God’s intentions for more beauty that is appropriate for that moment.  God takes in all  things, including the evil that is, and redeems it by the filter of the primordial nature of pure love and offers that experience back to us as redeemed, in every nano second.

Given panentheism we can again use the metaphor of a personal God who cares for all of creation.

By the way deistis are  a form monotheism.

 

And this is where I would likely end up if I return to some kind of theism. Right now, I'm just not sure if it's really fit for where my head is at spiritually. Nice outline of it, BTW. Of course, given your username, I would expect no less .

 

Mendalla

 

Thanks mendalla - by the way many UU ministers are panentheists - and the president of starr unitarian seminary is one ( a classmate of mine)  Process theology will corrupt one

 

Tell me about it. There are quite a few panentheists in the pews, too, believe me. They may not all know the term, but they are there. Certainly, when I talked about panentheism in a sermon a couple years back, it got some positive reactions (it wasn't the whole point of the sermon, but got mentioned).

 

I actually got interested in process theology for a while after taking a course at St. Paul's College at University of Waterloo that spent some time on it. Forget the prof's name. I want to say Francois Gerard (principal of the college at the time, passed away a short time after), but he taught the ethics course that I took the following term so I know it wasn't him. The first name Russell rings a bell.

 

Anyhow, some of that thinking is definitely still with me. Even have Hartshorne's "Man's Vision of God" on my bookshelf (Grandad's copy that I inherited) although my background in philosophy and theology isn't the strongest so I find it a tough slog to actually read.

 

Mendalla

 

 

Yes, Happy Genius, your and my brand of Christianity, but some Christians would disagree with this definition of Christianity.

 

Hi Siege:

 

As I said before, my interpretations of my spiritual experiences are arbitrary, metaphorical, and speculative. I express my spirtuality as readily in the metaphors of traditional religion as in secular metaphors. When I use traditional metaphors, however, I am frequently mistunderstood by theists, atheist and anti-theists who attach absolute meanings to these metaphors. 

Mendalla I remember him but his last name is lost - you might find Hartshorne's  Omnipotence and other theological mistakes a bit easier

This is the type of question I like to think about and answer myself before reading other responses.

 

Why do I believe in God?  And why do I believe in this particular way of understanding God?

 

I cannot imagine not believing in God, although I know many people can.  To me God is as natural as life itself.   I believe that humans are hard wired to believe in God; that from the earliest of times people have searched for and found a relationship with God.  Over the eons their understanding and relationship might have changed, they may have discarded ideas that no longer worked for them, and learned new ways of thinking, but they continued their search.  And eventually one particular people began to record their stories and their insights into written form that eventually became known as the Bible.  Through the Bible, and through the lives and witness of many individuals over time, and particularly through Jesus who became known as 'the Christ',  and through revealation since that time, I find my relationship with God. 

 

I believe that God breathed life into the world; and without breath there is no life.    I believe that God is Spirit, and God is love.  I believe that I am upheld and surrounded by God's love, that nothing can separate me from that love, and I see that love in the love of those around me, including many of the people on the WonderCafe.  God is made manifest in their love, their care, their concern.  

 

The question for me would have to be 'how could I not believe in God?'

 

Why do I believe in this particular God?  Because I live in this culture, because I have this history - because this is part of who I am.  I would imagine a Muslim would feel the same about Allah.   Others might not agree but I believe that there is but one God who has been revealed to different people at different times.  If I had grown up a Jew or a Muslim I most likely would follow their path to God.

 

 

It was a reasonable assumption, and not altogether incorrect. I suspect that most here are at least marginally "monotheistic", at least as monotheistic as Christianity can be  since if you go by the strictist definition it's actually polytheistic.

 

I am an actual polytheist myself, in that I follow the beliefs of my ancestors in the Gods and Goddesses of the ancient Irish Celts. It is interesting that you used Norse, Greek, Roman, and Egyptian as examples, however, as I have friends and peers who each are a believer in one of those pantheons.

...and another is "Christianity"  in that the ENTIRE teaching of Jesus is the Kindgon of God which is among you and in you and in him and should be recognized as in you.

Pure, if not simple.

 

[/quote]

 

Whaaat? A disagreement among Christians? What an idea!

 I believe in God because it makes sense to me.  I was exposed to it young although I was one of those teens who rebelled.

 

and yet, now it is a complete and to me reasonable process.

 

I see the scientific explanations for the world but they don't totally explain it all to me.

 

God is that catalyst that completes the puzzle for me.

 

 

lastpointe,

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't understand why that makes it true. Scientific explanations don't completely explain the world, of course, but that doesn't mean god explains the rest. I think the term to describe such an application of 'god' is called "a god-of-the-gaps".

Siege

seeler,

I respect that you, unlike some, admit that your particular faith is the result of your cultural upbringing. However, as an atheist (or tooth fairy agnostic to be 100% accurate), I not only can imagine a life without god, but I am living one. I am not exactly sure how to respond to your point, as it seems like a clear unpalatable fallacy. Maybe you could clarify as to how your reasoning is not this type of fallacy?

Siege

 Hi,

 

I don't think my belief makes it true for you.  It makes it true for me.

 

I believe there is God, that God was first , that God is with us.  That God created nd is creating.

 

I think God does explain the world.  For me, totally.  Science is part of the world but they coexist completely to me.

 

I think the question should rather be, 

 

Why don't you believe in God.  

ummmmm ... I will answer at the risk of being shot LOL.....

I had one of those "born again" experiences ...... quite personal and quite profound....

That in a nutshell is why I believe ........

Nothing I can justify or prove of course and I never put the pressure on another person to believe based on my experience.

Yes .... even family have told me I am half a bubble off centre ...oh well ...so be it...

All I know is that it was personal ...very personal ..... and enough for me....

There it is ..... a simple answer .... from a simple gal.....

I am open and honest so there you go ..... I trust that is ok with everyone

Hugs

Rita

lastpointe,

But surely there is more than just subjective truth, surely there is just plain truth.  If you preach pure subjectivity, there is not really much reason having a debate or discussion with anyone, as there is no truthful basis on which to build an argument. Anyway, you asked why I didn't believe in God? I don't believe in God for the same reason I don't believe in the tooth fairy, the easter bunny, Russell's teapot, the flying spaghetti monster or Aman-ra...because there is no evidence or passable logical argument in his favour.

I could say a million more things, and would love to, but I feel somewhat restricted by the medium of the conversation.

Siege

Amen, thats why i believe because of my Born again experance

 

Yes one of the theisms does that - it is called classical supernatural theism.  However, there are other theism that do what lastpoint does - it is found in process/relational theology where the model of God is panentheism.

Siege - I don't think I have to explain or defend my belief.  You asked 'why do you believe in God?' and I answered. 

 

I took your question at face value - that you were interested in finding out why people believe in God as they do.  As I read your responses it seems to me that you are more interested in showing them that they are wrong than in understanding their point of view.

 

But in response to your post, I will admit, as I said in my post, my particular understanding of God is shaped by my culture.  If I had lived most of my life in another culture I would probably understand God through their culture.  But I think that regardless of my culturel background and early exposure, if I had been raised in a vacumn (an almost impossible scenario) I would still feel an urge to seek out relationship, and I would reach out to the Spirit around me that gives me life and find God.  Different perhaps than my present understanding, perhaps more simplistic without the aid of the saints who came before me, but God nontheless.

 

Modesty forbids....

Specialmom, seeler, lastpointe - I'm so glad that you're here.

 

 

I initially believed in God (as a child) because my parents told me to.  They took me to church and taught me to say prayers.  I had no reason to believe that my family (both biological and church) was telling me fibs.

As a teen and an adult, my faith has been a connection and a comfort and a relationship.  I have found no benefit or reason to stop believing in God - so I haven't.

RitaTG,

If you get shot - well, I guess they'll shoot me too! 

 

My faith is based on a mystical/religious experience.

 

 Prior to that, I'd always been sceptical about faith based on belief.

Put bluntly, I couldn't reconcile my education with a literal interpretation of the Bible. The progressive metaphorical approach attracted me more - but I was often uneasy with the idea that the progressives were in the same business as the literalists - ie. carefully selecting passages to justify their beliefs. Man was "creating" God in his image - rather than God creating man in His image.

To this day I'm still confused and bewildered by my experience. I don't understand it, and I can't even attempt to explain it.

 

What I do know is that it's been life changing. I see the same life, but with different eyes.

 

I'm not talking about missionary zeal here. For me, it's been more low key.

Once I would have enjoyed winning an argument - now even being involved in conflict is disturbing because I have a new awareness that conflict is disconnection. I now understand that God is about love and connection - and that is the very stuff of life.

 

As I've said many times to many people - faith is something I experience rather than believe.

In general, but specifically to beshpin and seeler,

I understand that I asked you why you believe in God, and you have been thankfully honest and eloquant. I deeply respect that. If I have tried to disprove or contradict, it simply comes from a desire to acheive an even greater understanding of your way of thought and belief.

 

Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and systems of thought, I am just curious as to how different people justify their different beliefs.

Siege

 

Hi Rita:

 

Ditto for me, and for many other mystics who have experienced what they think is God, or at-one-ment with God.

 

For me, the feeling of universal unity continued after my mystical peak experience and became permanent.

 

Although I have fancy explanations, the experience of at-one-ment is what really matters. This is experiential rather than dogmatic or doctrinal spirituality.

 

Jesus' kingdom, eh?