airclean - could you please tell us what parts of Isaiah make you think that it speaks about the coming of Jesus as messiah.   Please do not search and paste.  Just give us the quotes, or parphrase in your own words.  This should be easy enough for you since it is part of your theology.

Now if we all just read the Bible and relied on translations other than a Jewish source (after all shouldn't a Jew know more about Hebrew than someone who doesn't) it would be easy to believe what Airclean believes. In fact as a Christian I am amazed at how it was changed to suit Jesus rather than it's original form which supports Isaiah 53 as speaking about Israel.

 

One of the glaring mistranslations is where "he" is substitued into the Christians Bible from the word "them" from the original Hebrew.

 

Isaiah 53:3

Christian translation: a man of sorrows and aquainted with grief

Hebrew translation: a man of pains and accustomed to sickness/illness

 

This would mean that Jesus was a sickly man if this applied to him.

 

Then there's Isaiah 53:8

Christian translation: But he was wounded FOR our transgressions, he was bruised FOR our iniquities.

Hebrew translation: because of my peoples sin, THEY were afflicted.

The plural in no way can be referring to Jesus.

 

Also if Isaiah used "servant" as a reference to Israel or Jacob from verses 41-49 preceding this verse, why would he switch it's usage?

 

Deutoronomy 24:16 specifically rejects the idea of vacarious redemption. "each is to die for their own sin" so how could Jesus die for ours?

 

Isaiah 53:12:  says the suffering servant would be rewarded for his actions. This would have Jesus rewarding himself, in the Christian interpretation.

 

I would think it would be more reasonable to question the Christian interpretation rather than the Hebrew, after all it is the ancient Hebrew text that is in question.

 

If I was considering whether or not to follow the Jesus way, how would it matter to me if Isaiah 53 was a prophecy about Jesus? I haven't quite made the connection.

 

Was Jesus sick, a bit off his rocker?

 

Consider a man of light walking amongst Romans who despised thinkers ...

 

There are still a great population of people that despise thought .. word too ... they fear infinite words ... potential of something bigger'n th'M?

 

Do you know the icon of mean, or medium ... allegory is critical to that parse in metaphor!

--Hi Seeler--I am sorry for taken so long to get back to you.I had got kind of busy. Anyway seeler. Waterfall posted the JEWS felt this way. I would think you would have to be jewish to know that. I also think not all jews thought that way. Through Christ Jesus  I am a part of Israel. Also as you know  10 Tribes of Israel are missing . I may have also come from Israel.  Seeler I know you study GODS Word. I am sure you have gone through  Isaiah . Do you not find he points to Christ, if not then who?

airclean - I'll let Waterfall speak for herself.

For me - I am Christian, yet I believe that I know quite a bit about the Jewish faith. After all, we do share common roots. Three-quarters of the scriptures I hold as sacred were written by Jews, for Jews. Jesus was a Jew. So were his followers. We share common roots. I also have, rather superficially I admit, looked into something of the Jewish religion today. And of course, all Jews do not think alike; no more than all Christians, or all UCC members for that matter, think alike.

Now, to Isaiah. It is one of my favourite prophetic books. Jesus also seems to have held it in high regard, and sometime quoted from it. I will speak from memory, as I asked you to do, and I will limit myself to three major chapters, or themes.

"Onto you a child is born ..." A wonderful passage, often read at Christmas time; often applied to Jesus. But I don't believe this was the intent of the prophet. Isaiah was living at a time when his homeland was under siege by a powerful foreign army. His king came to him asking if there was any sign of hope. Isaiah pointed to the king's wife and said that by the time the child was born, the threat of being conquered would have withdrawn, and the child would grow up to be king. Hope - hope given to a king and the people in a desperate time. Hope that if they could just hang on a little longer (the time it would take for a baby to be born) they would be freed from conquest. Not hope that some time in the distant future a Messiah would be born - but hope that in a few weeks or months a messiah would be born. (messiah meaning 'anointed one'. Kings were anointed.)

"The suffering servant." Again the writer is writing to the people of Israel in a particular situation, in a particular time in history. They had been a flourishing nation - with a city, palace, temple - kings and religious leaders. They seemed blessed. But then they were conquered. The prophets searched for an explanation. And they realized that while their nation had been blessed, that they had failed to live up to their covenant agreement with God, which resulted in their suffering. The nation itself was the suffering servant.

"He has sent me to bring the good news to the poor ..." Again the question, was this written as a prophesy pointing to Jesus? I don't think so. I think perhaps that Isaiah saw this as his role - to bring comfort and hope (good news) to the people, to encourage them in their captivity, to heal them and set them free.
Centuries later, when Jesus, having rejected the temptations in the wilderness, was looking for direction for his ministry, he remembered this passage from a favourite prophet and applied it to himself. Just as the words of Isaiah brought comfort and hope to the people of Israel, so did Jesus' message bring good news to the people of his time, once again oppressed by a foreign power.

I see Jesus and his followers looking back to the prophets before them and being influenced by them. I don't see the prophets speaking of Jesus as the messiah centuries before his coming.

That's how I understand it without doing a computer search, or checking my reference books, but relying upon my memory of the writings that have influenced my faith.

Globo, I must apologize for getting so far off the topic of your thread in my previous post.

To answer your question: why do those of you who do not see Jesus or Christianity as the exclusive path to the Father choose to be a follower of Jesus?

For myself, it is partly family history and culture. I was born into a Christian family; I was raised in the Christian faith. My culture is based on Christian principles. It feels right to me. It is where I belong.

I have experienced the Holy (God) through the lens of Jesus - his life and example. Through following his teaching, I have experienced life, and experienced it abundantly.

I have met others outside the Christian faith who also appear to have experience the Holy and are living an abundant life. I have shared my faith with some of them; as they have with me. I talk about the 'good news' and what it means in my life - but more importantly I hope is that in my actions and attitudes I allow the spirit that dwells in me to shine through so that others may see the spirit in me. I follow Jesus' way. In it I find truth, hope, light, and abundant life. I identify as Christian.

 

I am not Jewish airclean ( I think you knew that), but neither was the Bible originally written in English, so how do you think you are able to understand the Bible? The books of the Bible weren't translated into Hebrew from English it was translated from Hebrew to other languages. Whenever I wonder why some churches teach one way and other churches teach another, I search for the original understanding from a Jewish site or read books on the subject. Isaiah actually makes more sense to me when explained the way seeler did above in her post and other material I've read. To me you accept church dogma unconditionally even when you have to force a square into a circle. If you are a Christian reading Isaiah, you will see Jesus in the scripture because you already assume this is true. There are many scholars that have changed their view on Isaiah being about Jesus, even some evangelical ministers.

 

How do you explain Isaiah 53:10 the beginning of the fourth servant song in Isaiah?

How can God(Jesus) be promised long life when he is eternal? Why is God bestowing long life on a Messiah who is already eternal?  Also Jesus didn't have biological children and the word used in the original specifically refers to biological children, never metaphoric children, there's another word in Hebrew for that. Jesus did not have a long life either, and even though a Christian would say that Jesus is eternal again the word in the Hebrew scriptures specifically means a lengthening of days which eventually come to an end.(ya'arich yamim) Jesus did not have a long life or children. Do you include and read Isaiah 52 and 54 when you read 53? because they all tie in together and point towards Israel as the suffering servant.

 

This information does not disqualify Jesus to be who he says he is, IMO.

 

 

 

Hi Seeler -- You posted--

For me - I am Christian, yet I believe that I know quite a bit about the Jewish faith. After all, we do share common roots. Three-quarters of the scriptures I hold as sacred were written by Jews, for Jews. Jesus was a Jew. So were his followers. We share common roots. I also have, rather superficially I admit, looked into something of the Jewish religion today. And of course, all Jews do not think alike; no more than all Christians, or all UCC members for that matter, think alike.

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Airclean----Yes I do agree Jesus was born a jewish. I also agree His early followers were also Jewish. Now can you explain why they thought Isaiah was a Prophot.  Also some of what he wrote was of Jesus The Christ?But you don't think so.

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You posted---I asked you to do, and I will limit myself to three major chapters, or themes.

 

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Airclean-- Yes ofcouse as I will chose my 3.

1-- Isaiah--7:14 --

Isa 7:14

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el.

GOD with us.

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2----Isaiah--11:1--12---I will not post all this but I will say when this was writen Israel had not yet been spead to the ends of the earth.

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3--Isaiah---53:1--9-- Again it is  kind of long so I will not post.  Could it be anyone rlse?------------------God Bless -- airclean33

Hi Waterfall-- Ofcouse it was GODS will what Jesus The Christ did. He said so in the Garden. Not my will Father  but yours be done.

Isaiah--53:10----

Isa 53:10

Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief; when he makes himself an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;

- This vers is very interesting . It says not only is He Jesus doing GODS will but He The LORD shell raise Him. Also  the Word shell prosper in His Hands.  HE shell see His offsping for He is coming back.We shell all see Him.By the way if you see were I underlined .I don't think the Jews believe in this.At least they sure would not except it with Christ.

Isaiah 45:21--23---I won't post  it  all but I will post the part I don't want you to miss. Ofcouse  there is more in the other vers as well.

 

Isa 45:21

Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.

WHO COULD THIS BE BUT CHRIST.---God Bless ---airclean33

 

 

 

Well if you read the whole of Isaiah 45 it looks like they're talking about King Cyrus. You shouldn't isolate verses and say it's about Christ just to support your position without reading the whole thing..

airclean - I presume that you have these passages memorized since I ask you to post from your own memory and experience.  Please explain in your own words what these passages mean to you.

Hi Waterfall ---I talk all day it is just me, but now and then GOD speaks that is the word of GOD. Some times He is speaking to me for teaching . Other times not . I am sorry I took it with out thinking you would know this . Isaiah I believe was a Prophet of GOD.All that he said was not from GOD. But a lot that GOD wanted in print was.Who  else could it have been?Here is what seeler gave me . Look at it . You tell me.

 

	Isa 9:6	For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
	Isa 9:7	Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.

-Now as far as I know seeler don't believe this is of Christ Jesus.I do. How do you see it.

 

Here is the original Hebrew for Isa 9:6:

"For a child has been born to us, a son has been given us and authority has settled on his shoulders, He has been named the mighty god."

 

In Hebrew, Hezakiah, means mighty god. The KJV translation changed it quite a bit wouldn't you say?

Don't you love the present belief of Hebrew in English when if you study the book of languages in the common Hebrew of the past ... it is something completly different ... allowing for redaction or corruption of the mother tongue ... lik sin ... an Hebrew expression of sin and nun that generates something of hate ... for old words from the English perspective as declared by King James.

 

When one combines some history in the stew ... you find that King James thought Hebrew was hellish ... and thus was justified in changing it as he wished ... as god's authority here on earth ... or so he thought! This may have been an outright lie as conjured by the rich and poweful of the day ... and you know what the weaker forces believe about that? Such leads to a following orderof tomorrow and hope things will change once we are out of the presence of god and into the unknown ... is the unknown a devilish contemplation to those that stand on presence of mind? Thus it was gone ... moved on ...

Can you believe omega-de-Eired things that emerge from that? Facsimile ease ...  scions ... mire icons?

 

Want to knock down an inappropriate law for utilitarian purpose ... throw a strange word into the works ... like Sam's une can collapse a temple of time ... the pas'n mind? And it was a Nu-1 ...

 

Don't read this folks it is a private conversation with my unconscious self ... all that's beyond me ... sort of like a vernacular prae-Eire ...

...lots of cut and paste of scripture here............... 

Now back to the original question ..... why follow the Jesus way......

Personally .... because I relate to the christian way and that is the religious viewpoint that adds texture and colour to who I am.

Do I see it as exclusive ..... like much of the bible .... yes and no....

The no side first ..................

I don't see this as excluding all those that never heard of Jesus.

I don't see this as excluding all those that for various reasons were not convinced the "christian" way is in fact the way.    Lets face it .... we "christians" tend to do a less than satisfactory job of that......

I don't see this as excluding those that are incapable of understanding.

Now for the yes side...................

I do feel that the day will come that those that strive to know will find out that regardless of their knowledge of God that their heart towards God and others has indeed been similar to that expressed by Jesus.   That I feel is the door.

Just my nickel's worth 

Rita

Hi Waterfall-- I do understand different ver of Bibles can use different words. Thats why Iread the hole bible. ------------You posted---

Here is the original Hebrew for Isa 9:6:

"For a child has been born to us, a son has been given us and authority has settled on his shoulders, He has been named the mighty god."

 

In Hebrew, Hezakiah, means mighty god. The KJV translation changed it quite a bit wouldn't you say?

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Airclean-- Now if I get this right . You think by what you just showed me up top. Means they were talking of a man a that time right? Then why in the time of Jesus these Jews who believe as you say. had Jesus The Christ .Killed for saying the same thing. He as a man  who could be GOD? You may see why Waterfall  I am having some problem believeing that way. God Bless---airclean33

It's a guild thing ... secret sacred orders of them that work with souls ... trying to hammer "M" out a the temple so they'll learn something away from the book ...

 

The evidence is sparky fallout from heaven ... new dirt for the working and the bottom line fermer can go on bust'n grass for the sod o're meis ... sodomy my butt!

 

Like writ on the other side of paprii ... it takes a turn of the sheets ... and de metaphor goes on ... as anonymous satyr ...

 

Why the Romans Raped Lo' Crece ... that island just below the stream of Roman obscene behaviour ...

 

Does it still go on? Look at the realm about us ... is it a sad state of affairs? The unreading of adequate history continues as we prefer myth ... without understanding it! Just take it as it is ...

 

O Arm chi'z been milked and bled and boiled in Ur own Jewsis ... contrary to powerful Roué's that is briar like to outsiders ... leading to the Ba'aL'aD of Barb a Ra'ellen, the hook was placed in the devilish Classic Wisdom? Soul and spirit moved on as the war over it Eros ... over who'd get the physical remains ... it was preordained de arth got it by gravis force ... the lighter nut'ns moved on ... mire bubbles of their former learning ... why Hebrew bares with it ... subtle thoughts? How the icon of dum bells evolved as dead ringers for the two sides of the brae'n ... that went gon'g, somes Kon'g ... and if the "G" is silent it's dark ... as delight of deis has departed ... in abstraction ... much like L'uv in the present state we're in ... an ethereal substance ... quite H'Ayred bi times ...

Poor, poor airclean. (Seeler shakes her head.)

Despite the slant that some of the writers of the Christian scriptures gave their stories, I don't believe that the Jews killed Jesus. Read the closing chapters of Mark carefully. Yes, some of the high priests and scribes (who had sold out to the Romans) were involved in the arrest, it was the Roman Pilate who sentenced him and the Roman soldiers who carried out the command. Crucifixion is a Roman form of execution. The Jewish form of execution was by stoning (like the execution of Stephen). With a few exceptions, it seems that Jesus' Jewish followers remained faithful to him, and went on to spread his gospel. No, I don't believe that 'the Jews' killed Jesus.

And the belief that they did - promoted by some Christians, has had some terrible consequences down through the centuries.

Globo - let me once again appologize for participating in derailing your thread.  Much of this discussion should have been moved to a different thread.

- It may interrest you to know . I two don't believe the Jews killed Him . I know for a fact you and I did. The Jews were just doing what they believed. Which by the way I believe was wrong.  Perhaps you should read some of Pauls writings . To see just how much they were  wrong. Oh yes seeler I believe you will find when Isaiah was writing his book. The Jews were at war with Israel. So Isaiah being Jewish did not give the word of GOD to Israel as he was told . If he had would Israel have ask GODS forgiveness? They were beaten in battle by there Enemys and spread around the world.  Judah  about two hundred  years later-- God Bless.  --airclean33

Who were the Hebrews enemy? Latin origins ... the weaker power succumbed and ever since truth of the Hebrew love has laid dormant in de tome ... the torah ... Tory/Taurus goes on into English delight of controlling the whole pool ... "c" power?

 

The tale of this delight in burying de light of God results in a shaded population ... the shadow of a mortal descends ... soul and spirt? Well we just don't know ... didn't wish to according to the bible. Did the other people in abstraction wish to know? Is that plainly satyr-IHC? The devish self in alien tongues!

 

Now if the light of God is hidden inde tome; where's God's cognizance drifted off to? Creates an indeterminate enigma of soul ... and where did it go? Intern aL Iz'd feature of indeterminate dimensions ...

 

Now ponder the last words of the Gospel of John as a revelation of things in the pool refuse to think about ... thinking is evil remember! Can you cross that rule for a bit? Sort of like an NDE ... near to infinite wisdom that's oude-Ire fume'n ... that's psyche ... like the crest of Zues ... perhaps Sues ... an underground organization of thought ... a near nothing thing of mythical proportion ... as neither Roman nor Jew believed in nothing not infinite ... research their alpha bits ... where they began ... in foggy meme-aurá ...

 

Never, never ignore the little bits of dilexs or dialect-X their archetypical! But greatly changed so you don't have to know unless you really wish to know. Isn't that something else here among those who believe they already know all there is ... as God ...  BS that could grab yah right bi the ends ... both cheeks ... gotta L'uv the inn'r ¢ mighty thing when co-per (Persian sense of pure=per)! Devoid soul as it arrives among the emotions ... mental extremes? Like 2 cheeks of the brain ... lobes, depending on the aspec ... hoo'dah thunque'T?