I think they do it to spite me.

People who argue that Christianity issues somehow "better" than other religions lose a lot of debates. What you have is just a different set of beliefs from other religions. Not better, not more valid, and no more defensible. Just different.

Hi Globo, welcome to wondercafe. Here you will find an assorted variety of mixed nuts some of which are sure to be to your liking.

Hi Globo:

Welcome to WonderCafe!

I do not see the path of Jesus as the exclusive path to God, but I am a Christian because of my culture and upbringing. If I were born into a Buddhist culture, I'd follow the path of the Buddha. I actually followed the path of Zen Buddhism for a while, and I think the two religions aren't all that different, with their emphasis on universal love and compassion.

Also, I had a mystical experience that could be interpreted as a personal experience of Jesus, but I had it while on the Zen Buddhist path. So, there you go, I am a Buddhist Christian, or a Christian Buddhist, which, by the way, would not be regarded as unusual by Buddhists. Some Buddhists profess to two or more religions, and this is fine with the others. There is no claim to exclusivity in Far Eastern religions.

Every spiritual tradition is unique and differs from others. "Different" or "unique" does not mean better.

Even within Christianity, everyone is on their own unique path. The goal of spiritual enlightenment is the same, but the paths to that goal are innumerable.

The lamps are different,

But the light is the same.

-Rumi

I think they do it to spite me.

Yes! That's it!

The Jesus-way, I believe, is the one and only way that frees us from our total depravity so that we may unselfishly love and serve God and others.

Hi Globo ----welcome to WC

I agrree with Don.Jae's post and I add this ---from God's word ---- 

Peace

That's exactly what any cult would say, unsafe.

Wow ...quite a statement .... and generally speaking .... I am sure waiting to see this happen.

.........

Hello Globo..... you will find that this is a forum of the mingling of viewpoints from many faith perspectives and athiests as well.    I have found that this forum does not function as the cheering section for a particular denomination or faith viewpoint.     We don't have to chant passages from the little red book to be welcome here.    Some do have their books that they chant from and you will soon get to know who they are.

Think of this site sort of like the weather.   When cold and hot air masses collide and mingle we get some very interesting weather indeed.

Welcome! .... and do throw in your nicle's worth from time to time.

Now as for your question ...... and it is a good one ..... what of those that never heard?

Are they thrown away simply due to the unlucky combination of geography and time?

Something more is at work here and we wrestle with that as well...

Regards

Rita

Christianity: The solution to a problem created by Christianity!

What does John 14:6 mean to me?  It means baseball! In particular it means the World Series.  Whenever I see it it makes me think of the cuckoos who sit behind home plate every year when the World Series is on and hold up a John 14:6 sign behind home plate and kind of bobble it back and forth a bit just before the pitcher delivers his pitch.  It reminds me of people who believe in the efficacy of stupid and meaningless gestures.  It reminds me of self-important persons who lack the humility to exhibit a sense of occasion.  It reminds me of people who never let up.  It reminds me of one-trick ponies.    

I pose this question because it's a personal one for me. My immediate family background is of a faith tradition that is not Christian, nor culturally European. But I was born and raised in Canada, in essentially a Christian culture. I have never considered one religion to have the monopoly on salvation, truth, or the nature of God, because it never made sense to me that God could be that narrow, nor exclude from full participation in Creation all manner of human beings, wherever they lived on this planet.

But somehow, I have grown to dislike the buffet style approach to faith. It's not that I think you just have to pick one way, and stomach the things you don't agree with along with the bits you do, but I want to be rooted in a deeper tradition. But which tradition? And why? It's still a matter of choice among options (at least for me). I'd love to just go with gut feelings, but I'm also very analytical about such matters.

Globo ....... thank you for sharing so much....

I am glad that you are taking your time to learn and deeply consider..... good for you ... no matter which way you end up going.

For me it is very much a matter of heart.....

From the Christian perspective (happens to be my roots) ..... there are only two laws.

The first is to love God with all your heart, soul and mind....

and the second is like it.....

To love your neighbour as you love yourself ........

To me this sets up the heart conditons....

I feel that is what Jesus meant by follow me......

Unfortunately there is quite a bit of sifting to be done and you will find many that will bog you down with rules and laws and need to do this and believe that.

It gets quite cumbersome and gets in the way of the deeper questions.

I look forward to getting to know you better as you spend time with us sorting all this out.

Regards

Rita

Jesus' teachings echo and incorporate so many older teachings in a way that, to me, is culturally accessible and beautifully coherent. He lights a path that is compelling, lucid and challenging… succinctly.

That is not to say that other faiths have not given me insights that I value deeply.

I, too, am a monotheist: there can be only one god; but there are any number of ways to experience and enter into the mystery that IS god.  I believe we can on;y do that individually. Religions can help us do that or obstruct us. or alienate us altogether. There's nothing exclusively "special" about a religion. 

Jesus simply said.. Kingdom or man's world.. your choice.

Ah yes. The proverbial offer you can't refuse.

Hi Globo, I am a European-born Canadian immigrant from a Christian family background. I have committed myself to follow Jesus, in response to (a sense of) God's call. People who know me also know that I do not do a very good job of following Jesus, but perhaps they would say that I do better now than before.

Based on your comments about God, I think you would agree that it is God that is important, not some religious tradition. Like you, I do not believe that God has chosen to abandon large numbers of human beings. As I read the Christian scriptures, God actively reaches out to reveal God's-self to people who do not already know God. Since God reaches out to us where we already are, I would encourage you to start with whatever faith tradition you already find yourself most strongly drawn to. Perhaps that is the non-Christian tradition of your immediate family. Perhaps that is a different tradition that you met in Canada, Christian or otherwise. God is already reaching out to us. If we seek God honestly, I believe God will draw us into God's presence. 

I encourage you to go where you find God's presence, in so far as you can recognize that. RitaTG offered two basic guides for living in God's good creation: love God... and love neighbour... Jesus chose these as the most important directions of the traditional Jewish law. Many religious traditions include these guides in some form or other. I hope you are already connected to one such tradition. Seek God within it. God will find you there. 

In my case I find that following Jesus, even in my own poor way, brings me closer to God. And I find that God uses the surrounding Christian tradition, despite its many failings, to help make that happen. I believe God uses non-Christian traditions too. Of course, I am a Christian, so I do believe Jesus has a unique place in the relationship between God and people. I leave it to God and to you whether or not you eventually come to a similar belief.

Hello Globo and welcome!

This forum, designed to welcome open discussion sometimes does and sometimes doesn’t. After all, a forum is made up of individuals. It can only be as open as we are or are willing to be.

Regardless of the faith, I think the answers can be similar. Some are born into their faith. Some follow it throughout their life, some abandon it, some change faith paths….
 

Sometimes we make our choices and sometimes they are essentially made for us. Our parents may have raised us as a ___. Our nationality, country of origin, culture… may have determined we would be a ___. It is hard to be something other than a __ if one has only known __’s  and knows of nothing else. Sometimes people do not believe or feel like they are a ___, but for cultural reasons, stigma, fear, etc. may present as a ____. Sometimes the stigma, repercussion, consequences of no longer being a ___ make people decide to remain one, if in name only.

I think the reasons for “choosing” to be a Christian can be any or all those things.

I can say that I chose Christianity, as I was raised in an inter-faith family. I can also say that it was not always my choice. I practiced another faith first.

I did not chose Christianity because I felt the other was inferior or not “true.  I find that faith valuable and as good as my own. What I mean is that it points it followers to God and goodness.

 For me, religion -all religions- are beliefs, cultural systems, traditons and worldviews that relate humanity to G-d, God, gods….the divine…. A superior power as one knows it….

We may each relate to something different, even in the same faith. Some relate to music, others prayer, some scripture, some rituals, some symbolism, etc.

 I found I related through all those things better in Christianity than I had in my previous faith. It was not that Christianity was better, it was that I was better and I related to God better. That does not mean that everyone would be better or relate better in Christianity.

I can embrace and share the message of Jesus, without needing to proselytize. IMO Jesus met many people who he did not ask to leave Judaism or convert to Judaism.
 

Hi Globo,

I'm going to pick your statements apart a bit in hopes of getting a handle on what you're looking for.

Can you describe what you mean by "buffet style approach to faith"?  And what is it that you dislike?

What do you mean by this?  And what is the benefit that you see in it?

I can accept other religions and belief systems as something that others have been exposed to or chosen. In fact I find it fascinating to learn about them. The problem for me is that they don't resonate with me personally, when they do it is often because they are saying something similar to what Jesus has taught us. Many religions are older than Chrisitianity so one might think that is was Jesus just repeating ancient wisdom, but I look at it from the perspective that the truths of God are eternal the same as God is eternal. God has always been with us and the search for truth also. Even before Christianity.

Can God reveal himself in other religions, may be the question. I believe anything is possible for God to accomplish.  IMO It is also possible that we have many religions that provide a comparitive narritive in order for us to sift the wheat from the chaff. All religions, including Christianity, often need an overhaul when we stray from what we've been taught and adopt a lifestyle that "feels good" and lacks discipline, we change the "face" of  Christianity to something even Christ wouldn't recognize. There is beauty in Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, etc.....but it is also very easy to create an ugliness from all of these teachings if we twist things to produce personal gain. In this case we are using God's word as something to obtain power for ourselves rather than offering Gods teachings to empower others.

Hello Lookin Up,

Thanks for your questions. I'll try to explain here.

By "buffet style approach" I mean a process of picking up spiritual practices/beliefs that are attractive to you at any given time in life, but it's a rather superficial decision making process, and often, because it's not deeply rooted in understanding of its origins or your origins or your own values, you don't really experience any inner change or growth, and/or you quickly fall away from it.

This isn't to say what may look like "buffet style" to me isn't much deeper and meaningful to others, or may simply work for them, but personally I don't find it satisfying. One personal example is how I've experienced Unitarian worship locally. They are highly open to all matter of beliefs about God, from atheism to monotheism (don't know about polytheisim), and their services draw from all sorts of spiritual traditions. But it comes across to me as a sort of hodge podge of spiritual sound bites. Great for learning about many faith approaches, but no unifying story. I guess I need that unifying story to keep it all together.

Which is why the deeper tradition. It's great to promote universal messages about our common humanity, need for respect, compassion, etc. but I find myself needing something more to actually embody those values, to give me a compass, to model how I want my relationships to be. I see religious traditions sharing not only the beliefs, but also many spiritual disciplines that help me (when i actually practice!).

If I understand you correctly, it sounds like you are not in favour of "trying out" different spiritual practices/beliefs but rather to have a solid reason for embracing a particular belief and sticking with it.  Did I get that right?

So is it satisfaction that you seek?  How have beliefs that you have encountered fallen short?

So it's not solid, in your view?

If you were to replace the word "unifying" with "believable" in the above statement, would it still be true?

Please confirm my understanding of what I am reading. It sounds like you have a respect for the moral values fostered by some religions but there is something missing that is preventing you from embracing any particular set of beliefs.  You cannot see a reason to be "sold out", as it were, for any belief system you have found so far.  Am I close?

Npw THAT is a sentence I will remember! 

I think that could well be applied to most political parties...

Cheers!

The problem was caused by the fall of humanity. That happened long before Christianity came on the scene.

Yes, political parties are the ones that have been able to make up your mind.

The "fall of humanity" is a problem that Christianity created.

And look! You have the solution!

It's laughable.

The Jews believed in the fall first. That's why they were awaiting their Messiah. He came as the true man Jesus to reconcile and make new.

Christianity borrowed that bit from the Jews and arrogantly called in the "Old Testament," yes. And like any good scam artists, they designed a "solution" *wink*. So long as you believe. And follow. And don't forget to tithe. Good boy, have a cracker.

Tithing and following are well and good, but we are saved through faith by God's grace. ACURA.

No, they did not. While the Adam and Eve story comes from Jewish tradition, they do not read the story the way you do and they did not believe that the Messiah would save them from Original Sin, but rather was a liberator sent from God to end their captivity (originally the exile in Babylon but in Jesus' time Rome was the villain of choice). A modern Moses, if you like.

A rabbinical perspective on the issue: http://www.outreachjudaism.org/articles/original-sin.html

And another: http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation5.html

So chansen is quite correct. Christianity created the problem (Original Sin) and then claimed it had the solution (Jesus). Oddly enough, this is how many cons, esp. pharmaceutical ones, are perpetuated.

Now, I have enough respect for the wisdom I find in the Gospels and Paul to not write them off a con job. However, the doctrines like Orignal Sin that evolved from how people like Iraeneus and Augustine read and used those books are another matter.

Mendalla

Why follow the Jah-Zeu Sway?

Because he per abbled on too, about mythical things the Romans despised!

Led to behaviur to get around the Romanic quest to gag-order all the common folk ... jaqobeanism ... Lyres Eros ... and the song of the deis falling became asq weal ... here in GEO gaia as the lights go out ... a message from the deeper social order ... a subtle psyche? For those that didn't shun thoughts ...

Does this world think, process mental gifts? By the maas I observe it's beyond us ... if you look pay great attention to the direction Eyore in ... is it "$" or laid flat out to allow a wave or wake ... the label attached to Herman's bote ... as in the end to Gatzbi ... are you paddling against the chit ... just a wee bit ...

I just read your two references and found them quite interesting, especially when giving the Jewish view of original sin. Where I would disagree is when they try to explain the Christian view of original sin.

I am a Christian and my faith sways much closer to original blessing than to original sin - and actually much closer to the Jewish explanation than to what the articles claim is the Christian view.

I am quite sure that I am on the same wave-length as many other Christians in this.

"my faith sways much closer to original blessing than to original sin"

Curse vs blessing? Depends on what side of the quantum fabric one lies! Is myth like but not as a fabrication (carpet to sweep things under?) the wrong side of the pall 'd be the death o'mmoe/homis? watch that woman with the broom ... you never know where she puts valuable dirt/mire! Give cree dance to Cinderella ...

"I am quite sure that I am on the same wave-length as many other Christians in this."

Alas another opinion that's way out in the theology of success ... where only vert-ego wave lengths count ...$$$? Christ was the icon of failure ... what T Boone Pickens looked for in a manager; he felt that someone that never made a mistake wouldn't know how to deal with unseen situations. Could that be considered stage noire, or just no ire to it, a well-settled Celt in blarney's tone? Funny how historical alteration can screw up the best intents ...

 Christians tend to be a fractal bunch when in de light ... much splintered as they can't get it together ... to much hate for what's strange toth'm ... now that original toasting of the Shadow (Eve) under the tree, probably taught her something while aD'm lost half his thoughts (gynetic humus). Some say this is just pass'n the buck with the DNA factor'din ... chi just thought all the spitten and hiss'n was from the addar being abstracted ... it's killed cle o'patros ðue ... did you know that "tue" in ancient Gael is an very intimate term that can lead to the death of amon ... the way he was, being ... becoming something else again as he chases the myth of tale ... just to allow for the skinning thereof! Foresaken hare on the forehead of the man denoting a loss of thought ... and he didn't know he was skinned afore hand ... as per Ur in tent ... that lady that nailed a heart to the ground just for a lesson in a good fall ... good to get ass'queel out of the poke as let ...

Did you know that din, like Bo is another metaphor for citii (can be akin to street sense, bi the wah) and Eve was in chaos after that episode under the tree with a rising dead soldier chi din't expect ... thus taking us back to this boble of a bo'que that is nothing about anything but L'uv and nut'n like a squirrel in a Mrs. Hype revival-- heh think sheis Rae St Eve-ends ... this is rightously hinted at by Gospel of John 21:25 on the shunning of peculiar light that's out there ...

Then the tale began early in the odd tome, when creation made Deis and Night, separate from Light and Dark and all the inside grey matter as marginal value  in the  Celtic Theory  of Don/Ron and piles of fecund çheepçhit ...

If you don't observe what follows this donkey story as Holy Ass ... will you know what become of the lady expelled from the hoes of the old judai'n and thus distributed tribally ... without adequate dispensation for her efforts ... jst considered a beta power of secondary to the emotions.

However it might depend on whether your coming or going as sem-ite ... a rare type of icon often lost to the unseen icon ... an underground social ordering of things yet to come? Could that be contemplated as unseen?

Is god as word malleable? Good as irony! Pyro technix in Matthew 5:22 as the flash backs are gathered ... does the bible say the people needed inter prete-rs? Such are Sikh-Eires as displaced ... fabric headed this way ... and the myth of modern christianity goes on--CS Lewis.

 Be the dearth 've Meis ...

You do know that at first Christianity was considered a sect of Judaism. Thus it was members of that religion who first realized the true meaning behind the Messiah coming to set captives free.

Oh, sorry, ACURA is an acronym I use to represent my theological views as a moderate Calvinist (as opposed to the extreme Calvinist's TULIP). ACURA stands for Availability of choice, Conditional acceptance, Unlimited atonement, Resistible grace, Assurance of salvation.

Of course I do, Jae. I was a Christian at one time and studied ancient history.

Just because Christianity started as a Jewish sect doesn't mean that Jews believed in original sin or Messiah as a saviour from sin. That means that those Jews who followed early Christianity did. Let's not forget that the leaders of various uprisings against Rome were regarded as Messiahs (e.g. Simon bar Kokhba in 132 CE) and they much more clearly fit the traditional notion of one who will free the Jewish people from captivity (bar Kokhba's rebellion actually managed to hold out for two years against the Romans). Given that there is nothing new under the sun, i'd suggest that at least some of the ideas about sin and salvatoin probably existed in other Jewish sects at the time, but they were hardly the mainstream of Jewish thought.

Jesus himself talks about sin, but never about something called Original Sin or about sin as being a stain on all humanity from birth. He recognizes and calls attention to the fact that all are sinners (many, many times, in fact), but that isn't a statement about some cosmic stain on our species so much as a recognition that no person is perfect in regard to living up to God's laws and expectations. It's also his way of chiding those who took a holier than thou attitude to their relations with others (e.g. the famous "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"). But that is hardly a new message. Prophets like Isaiah were saying that a long time before he came along.

Mendalla

Clearly, it is not true that everything in the world is very good. (Newspapers give frequent examples of things in the world that are not very good.)

I understand "fallen" to mean that, at one time, everything in the world was very good, but that it "fell" into a condition where some things were no longer very good, and that has been the situation of the world ever since.

I find this a hopeful idea. The world was once very good, so perhaps it can be made very good again.

I find it less hopeful to think that there has never been a time when everything was very good, because that suggests it is naive to believe there will ever be such a time.

Better a broken air conditioner that used to work than one that never worked.

The more humans spread out, the more we started competing for our own interests and forgot we're interdependent. I am hopeful we will remember.

You are a crazy responder.

Such is the creation of the mind of pure love ... someone outside of intelligence ... like light beyond time ... an awareness of history?

We are taught to ignore history and like in the prence of the given book ... A'Donis, a beauty of mystery that will initiate rare thoughts in an emotional surrounding of Ire ... perhaps Eire ... out there ... as we bathe in a pool of it ... could burn one's thought intern ET ... an upstanding myth with bones of the story to get us beyond real into virtual a Nu word for incomplete yetij ... sometimes referred to as big sole ... or large fêtè-ish toward foot wash and rueben as a code for working decalf ... in a realm where decafine is not allowed as you rest ... a dark dimension of mental reorganization ... something disallowed by religious order ...

It does evolve subtley ... those in the present do not see this as history and probable Rae Flexion in the future as bent on air on a cold winter's night ... the arche type of X-maas ... and the dark pool flows as virtual not quite real they tell me. How does this affect death as ultimate darkness ... a virtual dimension where some wanderers get some ... as integral lion out there ... Shadowlands? It's þread on the page boies ... that's the word product of mined ... from deep dimensions ... dark?

Hi   Mandalla--You posted------

-

Jesus himself talks about sin, but never about something called Original Sin or about sin as being a stain on all humanity from birth. He recognizes and calls attention to the fact that all are sinners (many, many times, in fact), but that isn't a statement about some cosmic stain on our species so much as a recognition that no person is perfect in regard to living up to God's laws and expectations. It's also his way of chiding those who took a holier than thou attitude to their relations with others (e.g. the famous "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"). But that is hardly a new message. Prophets like Isaiah were saying that a long time before he came along.

____________________________

Airclean--Post--I understanded you have done studyes on the Jews. Did you understand that God seem to  be working with the Flesh . When He was working with the Jews As  it was with the first Adam. For the last Adam God was , and is working  with the Spirit. What I underline above was true , that is befor Christ Jesus, afterward  it all  changed after Him. We who Accept   Him   are now a part of   the secound  Adam . Not the first .  I  believe the Prophet  Isaiah did see His coming.God Bless---airclean33

Would you quote the verses where the Prophet Isaiah prophesied Jesus' coming IYO?

Consider Isaiah, ijsous, and buried Light in the book of Genesis ... there are some weird words and phonetics in god's whirl'd and if you think of god as the word ... go phi gur!

And are we not told to investigate alien tongues in King James Version? That is sacred knowledge however as some people don't know that King James wished no one to know Hebrew as it was the devils language ... leads to some awesom misunderstandings about semite sects ... harem scarem and all that ... cluster of feminine expressions ...  of psyche?

 Yes, Isaiah 53 seems to be some evidence of Jesus as the Messiah for a Christian reader, but Jews believe you must read the whole book of Isaiah, and not isolate just Isaiah 53, to see it points to the historical suffering of Israel  and not a Messiah. They don't believe it is a prophecy at all. Hmmmm.

Should one take into consideration all-that-is ...

Omega'd ID ewe see that go by as Candour ...

Condor? Just a flick of the Shadow ... and you know what the Shadow knows ... dark to mire mortals! Didimus as doubi-us ... what's lacking in de hole state?

Yet authoritarian mortals expect you to tell them things they know ... things they don't know upset "M" ... research "M" in Greek as a dual expression of 8/9 in Arabic all these could be upset or end to end ... as "V" or Capital Greek eL, a peak expression of when amon loses thought in ded arque!

Did you know Dawkins was upset in his search for mêmè ... a common Gael space or Eire dimension of mined? Something to dig as kohl ... its abstract as abrae in storm ...!

Why there is a chimerii guild of silence in de court ... one just can't say it ... common people are not to think according to Romanticised myth! Romans hated the Thinker (originally carved in basalt  in my understanding) but I could be mistaken as a mire nut'n from NB! Note that well as a hole of a place to many ... as just a place to drive thro' ...

Can you imagine creation from nut'n ... scratch constitution? Leads to ithchii ... that phetching thing ... but fishing is failing due to overuse of the resource as emotional rather that thoughtful input ...

Is ijsues like a light below mire, or just a spark under la Scie ... Lassie ain't that ab itchii marginal thought ... about subtle entities in space?

Hi Waterfall----You posted--

Would you quote the verses where the Prophet Isaiah prophesied Jesus' coming IYO?

_________________________

I am sorry to hear you  can't find your glass. I am sure they will turn up.

 Hi again Waterfall-- See what I mean , I just  knew those glasses would show up. You posted----

Yes, Isaiah 53 seems to be some evidence of Jesus as the Messiah for a Christian reader, but Jews believe you must read the whole book of Isaiah, and not isolate just Isaiah 53, to see it points to the historical suffering of Israel  and not a Messiah. They don't believe it is a prophecy at all. Hmmmm.

____________________________________

Airclean---- I didn't even know you were Jewish. So this  is the way you see them .  Rev John dose as well . I do not . Shell   I now contact 5  more ministers  in other denomintions to see how they see it?

 Hi again Waterfall-- See what I mean , I just  knew those glasses would show up. You posted----

Yes, Isaiah 53 seems to be some evidence of Jesus as the Messiah for a Christian reader, but Jews believe you must read the whole book of Isaiah, and not isolate just Isaiah 53, to see it points to the historical suffering of Israel  and not a Messiah. They don't believe it is a prophecy at all. Hmmmm.

____________________________________

Airclean---- I didn't even know you were Jewish. So this  is the way you see them .  Rev John dose as well . I do not . Shell   I now contact 5  more ministers  in other denomintions to see how they see it?

airclean - what does it matter whether or not a person is Jewish to understand the context as well as the content of the writings in Isaiah?