I would like nothing better than to give a humourous answer, but you raise some serious points, so I'll try to be on point.

God, at the very least, does not intervene.  This we can test for, and we have.  There is no evidence to suggest that any higher power has any effect over our lives.  Life is down to chance, and what we make of those chances.  A person who believes in God is no more or less likely to be happy or avoid tragedy, than a person who does not believe.

I personally refuse to believe, given the lack of reasons or evidence to believe in God.  I don't worry about why a higher power is not helping me through a situation.  I simply get on with it.  That is not to say that I do not hope for positive outcomes, or give up in any way.

"Why is God so hard to find?"

We have no reason to believe he was ever there.

Hi --K E N--You sound Like another person I Know that name is 3- Letters The first G

Why do you think Ken is gay?

Ken, I won't be flip but I wonder do we try too hard to find God? God is with us in good times, in bad times and all the times in between. A little bit of God is in each of us. Don't look so hard for the big things but see God in a butterfly , a flower, in your neighbours eyes and in your bathroom mirror. Peace.

I'm with CrazyH on this one.

God is not hard to find - the caricature of God that people like Pat Robertson think rains earthquakes on desperate people never existed, except in the minds of our ancestors. That was all of God that they could understand.

If you read the Bible with the hope of finding a supernatural daddy figure who will reach down and make bad things go away, you'll be disappointed. (no matter that when "good things" happen, some people attribute them to "God.")

If, however, you look for God in all of Creation - including the Bible - you'll find God (who is not a "he", that's a medieval corruption). That won't make your anxiety over a job, or lost children, or any other injustice go away.

Nor should it.

We, as you yourself note, are the hands of God in Creation. It is we who do, or do not, bring about the transformation of Creation. It is we who make it impossible for a child to be lost, a family to starve, a group to be persecuted, a war to be fought.

And when we do, God will be doing those things as well.

You have no reason to believe He was ever there.

Personally, I believe God is there. I also think that people got/get in God's way. They did things, said things, decided things... that made the whole thing more complicated or downright impossible.

I read your list and it is what people have struggled with "if God is good why do we feel bad or bad things happen?"...

Instead of saying, "only God knows" or "I don't know" they made stuff up.

They made up -If you are good you will be rewarded. If you are bad you will be punished. If bad stuff happens it must be something you did and you deserve it. If good stuff happens someone must have deserved it. God is watching it all and could intervene, can't because of our freewill, could stop anything.... you have to be a ___.

You said, "Those who believe have some accountability to give."

I resoundingly agree.

You can't provide one.

Ken  if we have just imagined beingness of quality in some kind of psychotic or intuitive/psychotic moment and then out of our experience, made up a bunch of words to represent it . . .

why can't  we live our lives out in a manner that makes the inspiration of union and unity and quality   --     a reality?  If there is light we have the right to share it or to take it into us, even an anarchist would agree to this.  We don't need permission or baptism to do this, in this day and age, symbols and rituals leave many people more uptight than feeling quality of being.

So, what if it's just a psychotic moment and nothing  really exists?  If we are anarchists spiritually and politically, what is there between us and murder?   Do we really need to return to tribalism to prove anarchy and the state of nature.  Are we not allowed to learn that democracy can heal and anarchy will eventually kill and that we are allowed to enjoy life - enjoy the light, - enjoy music and work . . . that life doesn't have to belong to the rich on holiday to be enjoyable or even enviable. 

just some ideas. 

God is a spectator he likes watching us destroy each other ..... best reality show on earth and maybe in "heaven"

He does not even show up to reinforce the beliefs of the believers...... who can only continue to preach how much they believe but they have no clue as to why ..... and no proof to back it up

Ken, I don't know the anwers to your questions. I spent most of last year pondering the same sort of things ...

However, in the end, these words of Mother Teresa have brought me much peace.

If my words and opinion can help much I attended church for over 15 years, regularly since 94, I have trouble in believing because I feel like I've arrived at a crossroad in some way and have questions about what I believe the same as anyone.
I don't deny the existence of Jesus, there has been enough archaelogy, historical evidence, documentaries and such to convince me. But after reading a book it enlightened me if you will to a new way of looking at it. Don't know if bad or good. I really don't care anymore if somebody is homosexual or likes to party and drink or whatever. I don't agree with some things the bible presents anymore,but I read it just the same and that probably means the humanness in me.
I can stare at the wall thinking about my faith but I also struggle with a type of illness, like a depression.
I just go to church to keep my wife and marriage happy but I too linger with doubts, I had to get off a christian discussion board because of all the self righteous,intolerant beligerance that would come at you and beat you with their inflated self opinions and over educated university type arguments.
I can find God in my own way, according to how i see fit. I sometimes believe but sometimes don`t. Its hard now to put faith and fact in some of those old testament stories like Noah`s ark, Jonah, Adam and Eve.

Why is it so hard to find God?

I personally think our world is filled with so much clutter it takes a good part of our lives to kick it out of the way so we can find God.

God is our refuge from the clutter, not our servant.

Ken;

Welcome to Wondercafe.

In answer to your questions.

There is no God.

There is no way to sugercoat this nicely.   You are feeling what everyone feels at some point in their life.  Life falls apart and where is the loving God you learned about from your parents and from you pastor when you were growing up?  He is not there.  You mourn for the God you lost (who you never really had) like a lost relationship and you pick up and move on without God.

Why is it so hard to find God?

Perhaps it's because we tend to look in all the wrong places?

(Just follow the bouncing ball called love and He's there to know.)

I do not need to. You do not believe God exists. Fine. No skin off my back. Since I do believe God exists, and I am not try to prove to you that he does, I am not required to offer any proof to you. If all matters of faith came down to offering proof, then it would not be faith.

My beliefs are my beliefs and I sure as hell do not need to explain them to you.

Consumingfire, you seem to think that this is all about you and you respond with this belligerent, defensive tone that says nothing.  "My beliefs are my beliefs and I sure as hell do not need to explain them to you." So don't.  You obviously have no insights to offer.

This isn't all about you.  Try to have some consideration for others.

Ken, I believe the answers to your questions are contained in your own words.

LB

God: The most popular scapegoat for our sins.

     Mark Twain

Right. Just like jes offered some great insight, except she took the opportunity to take a swipe at believers. Just like she-devil offered insight? Why don't you try looking at ALL the posts, before you open your mouth. You are right however in that this is not the thread to start a flame war. My Calvinistic beliefs would offer no help to most people on this thread so I will back away.

I however merely responded to chansen's post when he took the opportunity to speak on behalf of everybody and made his post about himself. Perhaps I did not respond as appropriately as I should have, but it is what it is. So I do apologize if I have derailed this thread. 

Hi Ken. Just like jes, she-devil and chansen, I can offer no help. I am a Calvinist and as such, my beliefs would be of no comfort to you. Marzo got one thing right, at least. It most certainly is not about me.

I truly am sorry if you personally feel that I have derailed your thread. That certainly was not my intention. Derailment seems to be a sensitive issue around here these days.

Without running the risk of making this about me, I concur with GoldenRule. God is not a cosmic vending machine who is here to serve us. Bad things happen to believers and non-believers alike. That does not prove however that God does not exist. It is proof that shit happens to many, many people. God never said "Believe in me and all your troubles will go away and your life will be just fantastic. No worries, mate." Atheists like to throw that around as evidence that God does not exist. It is a fallacious argument.  Admittedly, many well meaning Christians also like to use the "Believe in God and all your troubles will go away and you will find peace, joy and contentment" argument. It is just not an accurate position to take. It really is not about us.

My advice is to just ignor what chansen, she-devil, myself or any body else says for that matter. You have to find God yourself. God does not speak in the fire or the storm. He speaks in a still, small voice. He does not clamour for our attention. The noise of this world competes for our attention. God does not.

Hi Ken, you ask some very good questions and I will only try to answer just one the best I can using as much Scripture as possible.

You ask

1)

Isa 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Rom 8:18  What we are suffering now is nothing compared with the glory that will be shown in us.
Rom 8:19  Everything God created looks forward to the time when his children will appear in their full and final glory.
Rom 8:20  The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned
Rom 8:21  to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have.
Rom 8:22  We know that all that God created has been groaning. It is in pain as if it were giving birth to a child. The created world continues to groan even now.

Rom 8:23  And that's not all. We have the Holy Spirit as the promise of future blessing. But we also groan inside ourselves as we look forward to the time when God will adopt us as full members of his family. Then he will give us everything he has for us. He will raise our bodies and give glory to them.

Once you understand God's love for all humanity, and once you understand His grand plan for all of us, then maybe you will begin to know and feel His love. We really need to know and experience good and evil just like God does, so that in part, we will eventually be in His image.

It is His WILL that all humanity be saved, and He saves it through Jesus Christ, Who really is the Saviour of THE WHOLE WORLD. If it is His will, then who can possibly stop Him? Jesus cannot be the saviour of the world if He does not save the world, wouldnt you agree? Human "free will" can not and will not stop Him, because there is no such thing as "free will". It is nothing more than an idol of the heart, by which the whole world has been deceived into believing that they have it.

1Ti 2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1Jn 4:14  And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

1Ti 4:10  For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially (not exclusively) of those that believe.

Not too many believe these Scriptures I have shown you, despite they being right there in their bibles. Even that is God's will at this time, He does not want everyone to know these truths right now. Someday though.

Hab 2:14  For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

If you have time please check this site out, http://www.bible-truths.com/ it explains and gives answers to alot of the of the questions you have using only Sciptures and not by the traditions of men. I do not know of another website on the planet like this one.

Peace, God be with you

gdriggs

Hello Ken and welcome to WonderCafe,

Doubt is not the opposite of faith.  Doubt is the opposite of certainty.

Doubt has the power to challenge and from that challenge it remains to be seen if faith is something that stands or fails the test.

The struggle is rarely "fun" in the moment.  I have never know it to be completely without merit.  Sometimes, in the looking back I can find more meaning than when I was neck deep.

On the face of it you are aware that there is a difference between heartache, frustration, joy and love.  How did you gain that experience Ken?  Have you never known joy and love at all?  I suspect you wrestle with proportionality, why there is more heartache, frustration and suffering compared to either joy or love.

If that is the case the question becomes one of agency.  How much of your life are you responsible for and how much are you wanting others to take responsibility for?

Fair enough.  Let me take a stab at responding to them.

Love is an element of relationship.  Relationship requires two parties.  Relationship requires communication.  Sometimes intent to communicate becomes hijacked by inability to communicate.

If an author writes a book do I profit by not reading it?  No, I don't.  The author is attempting to communicate and I am refusing to participate.  That problem is easily solved.  What happens though when I do read the book and I still don't understand what is going on?  Is the author using words I am unfamiliar with?  Is the author using shades or meaning of familiar words that I do not understand.

For example.  The word awful has two distinctly separate meanings.  It can mean something is extremely bad or it can mean something is impressive.  The latter understanding often slips out of our collective memory.

The word "love" can mean anything from God's benevolent affection to zero (tennis score).

I just lift that up to set the table.  Love is a complicated emotion and it can look like different things in different contexts.  Love may hurt, love never harms.  Both hurt and harm involve pain, how that pain comes into play is important.  A trip to the dentist for a cavity repair will involve some pain, even if it is only the mental discomfort of the freezing needle.  Done properly that pain is undertaken to prevent harm.

So what does that mean?

I think that opens the door to an understanding that while any of us might feel pain, and that in higher proportion to others around us, it may not actually follow that the pain is the result of any intent to harm.

Pain is the body's warning system.  Something isn't right and it needs to be addressed.  Medically, the inability to feel pain is a much more dire problem.

If you are in pain, something needs to be done to correct it.  Not knowing your specific pain I wouldn't even hazard a guess as to what remedy you should try.

Gifts can be a source of frustration for two reasons.  First, you haven't practiced with your gift, and as a result have no real idea how best to use it.  Second, you don't have or like that gift and are insisting on something better.

Again, without knowing more specifics it is hard to address your actual problem.

Gifts are like tools.  They have a specific application.  You can cut plywood with a hammer.  It is not recommended unless you are going for a disaster look.  I have yet to drive a nail with a saw.

Nobody has a complete tool box.  Spiritually speaking there is good reason for that.  There are gaps so that we can dovetail with others.

Good question.  Which do you think is better, trying and failing or failing to try?

Except maybe for the apathy that cares not one whit for potential.  At any rate it would appear that the problem is not so much the gift as it is the expectation laid upon it that is the real sticking point here.  Presuming, of course, that the gift in question is actually present and has been developed.

I believe that each of us is gifted with talents.  If there is any wishful thinking involved it is often in the identification of which gifts we have.  Nobody has all gifts.  Nobody gets to choose which gifts they will be given.

Each of us can and each of us does.  What is at question is the degree of difference.  By the way, the author of Ecclesiastes is not saying that "everything" is meaningless.  The author is saying everything under the sun is meaningless which is all things but God.  So, to be blunt, human endeavor is meaningless.  Godly endeavor imparts meaning.

As far as I understand it there is no right for the parents to know anything beyond the fact that their child is missing.  Insisting that right exists is a good example of wishful thinking.  There is another presumption at play in your question and that is that knowledge obligates its owner to share.

The world doesn't work that way.

If it did there would be no such thing as patents or intellectual property.  Everything would be public domain.  There would be no place where we could draw a line between who and what you are and who and what I am.

That kind of world would be a nightmare.

Sharing knowledge can be a blessing or a curse.  Context is important.

Well maybe and then again, maybe not.  To be honest I don't want to know everything that my friends know.  If I had a friend who sat on the jury in the Paul Bernardo trial for the murders of Kristen French and Leslie Mahaffey I would not want to know what was on the tape that he or she saw.

I question the mental health of anyone who would want to know who did not need to know.

One is not resurrected from pain.  One is resurrected from death.  Where pain is involved the proper word is Redemption.  Pain can be redeemed.  Redemption has layered meanings all seem to imply an exchange of some kind.  A movement from one place to another.

The value remains but an equivalence is made.

How is pain redeemed?  Rarely does it become non-pain though that might come in time.  So back to the Dentist analogy.  I have a hole in my tooth.  It causes me pain.  To treat that tiny hole a larger one must be made.  That process will cause me more pain than I feel presently.  Of course, by the time the process is over the hole will be filled and further decay will be arrested meaning there is a future that will be painless.

Having a cavity filled redeems the pain in that there is an end in sight.  Hard to see when you are in the chair and your head rings with the whine of the drill and your nose is filled with the smell of your own tooth dust.

Admittedly it can feel like a resurrection when you heave yourself up out of the chair after a lengthy procedure.  It works metaphorically.  Fortunately few have to die to have their cavities filled.

Conversely, if he is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, what is your rush?

The problem is not God it is our expectations of God.  We come into the relationship assuming that God is somehow obligated to perform according to standards we have set and often we have set those standards rather arbitrarily

It may very well be.  Particularly if one takes into account that humanity has failed to live up to God's hopes and dreams and yet God continues to seek us out and enter into relationship with us.

While there are several parables that share instances of God rejoicing I think most of God's existence is spent weeping over our own human stupidity and inhumanity.  If God ever gives up the game is over.

The qualifier "may" is huge isn't it?  I mean it points to a possibility.  Every time anyone buys a lottery ticket they "may" win it all right?  Nobody wins who doesn't play.  Now with a lottery we can work out probability of success and see very easily that only the extremely gullible or desperate would invest in that kind of get rich quick scheme.

Our biggest drawback with God is that we really do not know exactly what to look for in terms of big pay-off.  Scripture suggests abundant living.  What does it mean to have life in abundance?  Does it mean only good things?

Theologically there are some sloppy thinkers who would agree with that.  Here is why I think it is sloppy.  Free-will no longer exists.  Pelagians will scoff at that.  The human will is not absolutely free, it is constrained by so many things and because of those constraints it is not free to do good.

That doesn't mean that humanity is only capable of doing evil.  It does mean that everything we do will be corrupted in some way.  What other part of creation do I have to kill in order to survive?  I can't eat rock or wear it.  Something organic needs to fuel my fire whether it be animal or vegetable my life requires the life of something other if it is going to continue to exist.

Now we can draw arbitrary lines around sentience and say that obviously an apple is different from a cow.

Is that really anything more than self-justification?  Do not both live?

I canoe a bit.  Made several summers work out of it.  I always knew where I was going even if I didn't always know where I was.  One week I wanted a challenge as my regular run was becoming a bit boring.  So I picked the next river over.  

Sure, it was labelled unnavigable, but this was only a canoe so I thought I'd check it out.  I spent the better part of a day driving the river as much as possible.  I crossed every bridge from entry point to the pull-out.  I studied topographical maps for hours getting an idea for the lay of the land and what bench marks I could use to gauge my progress.

Then, there was nothing to it but to do it.

I learned very quickly that bridges are only needed when the water is deep and that there was a lot of this river that didn't need a bridge to cross.  My canoe trip soon turned into the longest portage of my canoeing career.  Made all the more agonizing because I could look at the benchmarks and see just how slow my progress was.

We never finished that trip.

It isn't that there was no end to arrive at.  It was that there was no way we were going to get there at the designated time.  Having thoroughly worn out the campers in my care we quit at the next bridge which was several km downriver (a very ironic term in this instance).

Getting the canoes out at that bridge turned out to be an adventure as the banks were way too steep and we barely were able to climb out ourselves.  I ended up hauling all the canoes up to the bridge with lines hand over hand.  Being pre-cell phone era I also had a half k hike to a house where I could call for support to pick us up.

They guy at the house was amazed that we would even try such a thing.  He didn't know whether to applaud our audacity or jeer our stupidity.

At any rate.  I knew where we were going.  I did not know what lay ahead.  Had we continued we would have eventually arrived at the intended designation.  Well, maybe not.  They may have killed me and hid my body if I insisted on seeing things through to the bitter end.  I know the end was there though and had it been a matter of life and death I'd have dragged them all downriver by myself.

Because it is challenged and sometimes that which is challenged is proven weak.

On the surface, since it is your lack of faith I'd say you are the one who needs to take responsibility for it.

You say that you are a chronic worrier and that might point to something else that you need to address.  Given your example it appears that you worry most about things over which you have no control.  I don't think that makes you any different than anyone else.  It might be more of a trust issue than a worry one.

In the end you can only control what is yours to control.  And even that control has limitations on it.  I can control when I cross the street.  I cannot control the driver of the oncoming car and force him to stop even if there are red signs and lights galore.

I trust him to stop.

If I couldn't I would never cross the road.

Yes and no.  A coach who cannot get his players to play to their expected levels is in danger of needing a new job.  Players who cannot or will not perform to their expected levels are in danger of needing a new place to do their job.

The coach is in danger when the whole team under performs.  The player is in danger when they under perform.

Many religious writers are also hacks who espouse some incredibly poor theological knowledge.

I think it is a team effort.  In Mark 9:  24 a father in a difficult position cries out, "I believe, help me my unbelief!"  Which means that this guy is human.  When everything is going according to plan his faith is by and large, untested.  When everything hits the fan his untested faith wilts.

Jesus asks him why he doesn't believe and this is his response.

Jesus goes on to help him out.

It is a team thing.  This guy has admitted that he is trying to do his part and he is failing.  Jesus steps in and picks up the slack.

The story is not included into scripture to indicate that this is how Jesus always operates so we get bailed out every time we throw our hands in the air and say we give up.  I think this father was probably at the breaking point.  I have no idea how long or painful his journey was up until this point.

I imagine that it would be much like today except that we would be constantly using somebody else's name when we wanted to damn something.

I imagine that there would be less hope as well.

Of course, I can't prove either.

That depends.  If you believe in the Trinity and that Jesus is God in human flesh then no the fruits did not exist before Christ.  If you don't believe in the Trinity and view Jesus as merely human then yes the fruits did exist before Christ.

No.  Christians do not have a monopoly on these gifts.  In fact, stick around the WonderCafe for a bit and you'll soon see that we could stand to have more of these fruits.

Make a difference to what?

Every relationship we have makes a difference Ken.

Yes and no.  At our best we can be extensions of God's love.  I'm not convinced that love is non-judgmental unless you are using non-judgmental in a specific way.  At our worst we cast aspersions on the Christian faith and folk who are into generalizations can run with that as far as they want.

It all depends on how you want to win.

I wrestled in high-school.  I never enjoyed beating a much weaker opponent as much as I enjoyed losing to a much stronger one.  It is too easy to look for the very worst an opponent might have to offer and beat them on that level.  Try going up against he best that an opponent has to offer and beat them there.

That feels like a victory.

G.K. Chesterton says, "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried."

It is easy to put Benny Hinn at centre stage and use him as an example of Christianity and make all Christians look vain, shallow and more than a little greasy.  Put Mother Teresa at centre stage as an example of Christianity and most Christians look vain, selfish and more than a little apathetic.  

Fortunately, there is only one Benny Hinn and one Mother Teresa.  The rest of us stand or fall on the strength of our own witness.

Because Benny Hinn is such a tool it does not follow that all Christians are tools just as it does not follow that because Mother Teresa is a paragon of virtue that all Christians are paragons of virtue.

We could aspire to be either.

With all due respect to Francis Schaeffer whom I admire.  I think he is wrong.  My failure to show love doesn't prove Christianity is false so much as it proves I am false if I claim to be a Christian.

And then there is the nasty bit that we began with when it comes down to defining love.

Would the dentist be more loving if he refused to hurt me and instead let the cavity progress as it would?

Grace and peace to you.

John

Is God just a state of soul ... like another dimension?

Perhaps the aboriginal thought of the Hebrew covered this topic in the field of the word:

                                San' ...

This word is translated into modern English as "Hate"!

Is God buried in a world of hate, then it sort of runs true that God is buried in the soul of man ... if we could only dig the learning of such stuff. Then many ministerial sorts think learning is for the birds ... evil! Ther has to be an upset somewhere along this line ... like in light through a Mir ... reciprocation of a poor ideom?

Then all the other metaphors for "san" are interesting ... like outside, beyond, myth and all sorts of foolish arrays ... the end meets the beginning ... a reasonable loupe of thought? Yah gets what yah deals in an alien philosophy to many peoples ...

If only we could get all these gravid dark points together ... and enlighten them on the matter of love without reverence for the other ... the outside observer of how love is expressed mostly ... without a thought for the other. Just observe the goings on in church ... more hate than love people ... with shining examples to serve as bright exceptions ... sort of like the knight ... Skye! It's just a arc ain thought like Jo'n as ... God! Joa'n of Arc and ancient symbol of enlightened desires who would fight corrupt kings? The story goes on ... 

People can spin it around as much as they want to

You still cannot explain why you believe what you believe

You can quote all the scripture in the world but it makes a poor defense

God does not seem to have your back at all

He does not appear to you

He does not talk to you

He does not perform any signs and wonders

So where is he ?

Why is God so hard to find?

Maybe it is because we look for God in the wrong places.

Experiencing God depends on how we define God. If we define God as the self-creative totality of being, in a state of synthesis, then God is omnipresent, and we are an inseparable part of IT.

Then it is not a matter of finding God. Then we—the self-creative totality—are God.

I pray to God to rid me of God. 

-Meister Eckhart

I am sorry for your predicament Ken. You've come to the right place to work it out. I don't believe in god myself, but like Arminius and Crazyheart, a lot of people find that a redefinition of god works well. You don't even have to believe in god to see god in all of us, as my new age cousin believes. God can be everyone and everything, not separate, so you must look for answers within people, especially yourself.

GDRIGGS--wrote

1Ti 2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
 

1Jn 4:14  And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
 

1Ti 4:10  For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially (not exclusively) of those that believe.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Every Bible Quete Is wrong --Where did you get them? Some may not read there Bible I Do You Look Like g-i-a to me

Hi Ken

I don't have answers but I do share in the quest...and as we are in the season of Lent, I thought I'd offer the words of a song I wrote in the last while that I sang the first Sunday of Lent - I guess it's my own personal wilderness psalm.

Are You There

Some days are easy

Porch swingin’ breezy

Sun on my face and I know my place in the world

On good days the sadness

10 WC points to whoever can decipher airclean33's post.

Hi chansen,

Ummmmmm.  It looks like airclean33 is questioning the validity of the translation that GDRIGGS is using.

It also appears that he is suggesting that GDRIGGS reminds him a lot of Greatest I Am.

But I'm just guessing.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Ahh, OK.  I didn't catch the name of the other poster AC33 was quoting.

Thanks.

oooooh. I thought he was swearing in Dan Brown bible code or something. My bad.

gdiggs-Wrote-----

1Ti 2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
 

1Jn 4:14  And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
 

1Ti 4:10  For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially (not exclusively) of those that believe.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bible Quetes are wrong --Where did you get them? Some may not read there Bible I Do You Look Like g-i-a to me, Those underlined passages are wrong.It Looks like somthing-g-i-a. would do.--------Can you read that   Hansen?                                                                                                                                           

Hi airclean33,

To clarify.  You have not underlined passages.  You have underlined portions of passages.

The problem may simply be one of translation.

For example:

Compare with:

or

or, 

There are some slight variations in each of the three translations I have referenced.  It appears that CDGRIGGS is using the KJV.  Which, while not the most accurate of translations is not necessarily wrong.

Which translation of scripture are you using?

Grace and peace to you.

John

Sorrey Goldenrule I forgot the RRRRRRRRRRR Theres  couple for next time

Ken Munro

I am a Deist who did not find the Godhead till I was 39.

My faith, in what I knew before being saved, so to speak, none are ever lost, was justified and confirmed by the finding of the Godhead.

Faith without facts is for fools so if you are to place your faith in anything then it should have some substance, reason and logic to it.

I believe that the reason many do not find God is that they forget that God works in a logical way and logic and reason must be applied to Him and His systems.

To do this one cannot read the Bible literally. To do so kills reason and logic.

One cannot start ones search for God and His philosophy with a belief in talking animals and water walking.

This is not to say that the Bible cannot be your guide. It helped me to find the Godhead.

The first hint to finding God is actually in the Bible. It tells you to look for God within nature. If you can recognize the natural systems around you as perfect, as scripture says it is BTW, then you are on your way to finding God.

----------------------

“ We know no joy, no love.”

WTF is this lie?

You may or may not know these but most do.

----------------------

(1)

“If God is the author of joy, then why do so many of us feel so miserable? If He truly loves us, why don’t we feel that love?”

Can you feel what you have yet to touch?

When you find the Godhead you will feel that love.

------------------------

(3)

“Can each of us really make a difference? Or is everything futile as the author asks in Ecclesiastes 1, verse 2?”

Yes. Just look at those you interact with. You have an effect on them the same way they have an effect on you.

-----------------------

(4)

“don’t the parents have a right to know”

Only man can convey earthly information.

God does not micro manage his perfect universe.

----------------------------

(5)

“I think about the injustices of our society. We are taught somehow that God, one day, will right all wrongs.”

Yes, we are taught many lies. It is based on a wish for retribution.

Not a forgiving posture. That is why man invented the concept of hell. To make the --others--suffer.

Hell of course would be a completely immoral place and God would not create such.

--------------------

(9)

“Can a relationship with God really make a difference?”

Other than forcing duty from you, no.

“Aren’t we really an extension of God’s love and non-judgmental ways”

No. Since when is God non-judgmental?

The Bible God is to judge all things as the creator of good and evil and the law and the real Godhead also judges based on what it knows to be true.

All judging is is looking at data and assigning it values.

All of us do this on a continuous Basis.

It is called thinking.

-------------------

God is real but I think you are looking for the sky daddy type of God that has been created by man. The wish list super miracle working God of the Bible.

That one does not exist.

As I said above, the Bible is right that God can be found in nature. You do not see a bunch of miracle there do you?

I do not. I see evolving perfection and that clue is what gave me access to the Godhead.

Less whining and more looking is all you need do. Do not think locally, think globally.

Regards

DL

God helps those that help themselves.  I think sometimes the messages are there and we don't listen to them because we are so busy feeling sorry for ourselves, we don't listen and follow the message.  Its easier to complain, and criticize and disbelieve  instead of doing what God is really asking us to do, usually the tough thing.  Why the tough thing?  It makes us stronger people, strong enough to help others with their problems. 

Simplistic and about as useful as tits on a bull.

No wonders they are closing Christian churches and the young are opting out if that  is representative of a Christian answer.

Regards

DL 

That is even hinted at in scripture --do ye not know that ye are Gods.

Gnostics have known this forever.

Regards

DL

Thats the way.

Regards

DL

Revjohn----I read the revised standard version--Also-New King james spirt filled life bible.  R-S-V--1- Timothy 2-4 Reads who desires  all men to be saved and to come to the know ledge of  the truth.   Who will  have all men to be saved.   King James Version -----   If God willed it ? It would be done .-----  You did not put 1- john 4-14 You did not put your king james ver---Mine reads--and we have seen and testify that the father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.My R_S_V-Reads And we have seen and tesify that the Father has sent his son as the Savior  of the world.

There is no one quite like me.

Apotheosis will do that.

Regards

DL

That was too rude

 God is hard to see IMHO because she is everywhere.  God is particularly hard to see in our culture because we reduce everything to reason and logic, while God belongs in the domain of art, creativity and music. These things are real, and they affect people, but because they can not be reduced to logic and reason, we are unable to see.

Also  because the church as it has been throughout history is full of people who are atheists, or at least act like God does not matter.  Much like Judas treated Mary, they try to belittle  the faith of others.

John 12:1-8
12:1 Six days before the Passover Jesus came to Bethany, the home of Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead.

12:2 There they gave a dinner for him. Martha served, and Lazarus was one of those at the table with him.

12:3 Mary took a pound of costly perfume made of pure nard, anointed Jesus' feet, and wiped them with her hair. The house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume.

12:4 But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples (the one who was about to betray him), said,

12:5 "Why was this perfume not sold for three hundred denarii and the money given to the poor?"

12:6 (He said this not because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief; he kept the common purse and used to steal what was put into it.)

12:7 Jesus said, "Leave her alone. She bought it so that she might keep it for the day of my burial.

12:8 You always have the poor with you, but you do not always have me."

God is not far from every one of us.

Regards??????    Gee, thanks!

Simplistic?  Agreed.

My simple truth was first handed to me on a ticket in Sunday school. God is love.

Over the ensuing years I haven't found a better explanation.

I also happen to believe that people do look for God in all the wrong places. Prosperity Christianity is an example of this.

I agree that God can be found in nature. But, even there, a lot depends on how mankind shows it's love - as is known by aboriginals the world over.

As an aside, it often amuses me the irritation and sometimes anger that is shown by those who profess to know the mind of God.

Whatever happened to love thy neighbour?

 Frankly Pilgrim I was about to give the "looking in all the wrong places" answer too.

Remember the old computer game "Lounge Lizard Larry:  Looking for Love in All the Wrong Places"?

Anyway your answer makes perfect sense to me.

Hi airclean33, just to clarify that I never said God's will has already been accomplished, but it will be someday. His "will" or "desire" shall be done no matter what, because He is totally and completely sovereign, in total control of all His creation.

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Jesus WILL save the world or else how could God have sent Him "as the Saviour of the world"? Jesus cannot be Saviour of the world if He does not save it.

Joh 8:29  And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

The word "pleasure" in Isa 46:10  comes from the Hebrew word "chephets" and it can also mean "purpose", "pleasure"  or "desire" .

Here it is from Strongs dictionary of Hebrew.

H2656
חפץ
chêphets
khay'-fets
From H2654; pleasure; hence (abstractly) desire; concretely a valuable thing; hence (by extension) a matter (as something in mind): - acceptable, delight (-some), desire, things desired, matter, pleasant (-ure), purpose, willingly.

God will often declare something even before it is done, because He can do that, He is God.

So whether He wills it or desires it, it shall be done.

For your information I use many different translations of the Scripture, because they are all good in my opinion and one can learn alot from them all. Besides there is no such thing as an hundred percent accurate translation.

Peace and God be with you

gdriggs