Woman Living Sinful Life

Man, I thought your were talking about my dang ol' ex-wife, man oh man,I tell you what.

southpaw

What are you on? Can I have some too?

Lots of good questions Crazyheart.  Some similar to those I was asking myself when I started the thread about 'what if Jesus hadn't died'.   Jesus must have been charismatic to attract people.  He must have been kind and compassionate and able to identify with people to hold them.  He seems to have had a gift of healing body and soul.  He was able to give of himself and not count the cost.  If he could do so much in three short years, think what he could have done in thirty. 

Why was Jesus in Simon the Pharisee's house.  I presum he was invited - that Simon had come to whereever he was teaching and invited him to come home for supper.  Although the Bible casts the Pharisees in a bad light, it seems that several Phasisees including Nichodemus and Joseph of Armethia were attracted to him.  Perhaps Simon was too. 

The woman in the story, like so many others, had heard about him through the grapevine.  Perhaps she had been among the crowd listening to him earlier in the day.  Perhaps something he said or did touched her heart in such a way that she had to see him again, had to do something for him.  She was certainly brave to go into a Pharisee's house uninvited, into a room full of men, and annoint Jesus with her precious oil.

The key may have been the knack we see in many charismatic people. They are able to think both of their message and of the mindset of those who will receive it at the same time. You can't just preach a message, no matter how dramatic your style. You need to have a feeling for how people will receive it. Not many people have that. It was notably absent in university circiles.

You don't just teach a subject. You teach it to people.

While it seems emminently plausibl that Jesus of Nazareth was a charismatic individual  the other reality is that we have no idea how large a following he had.  It could have been large crowds or it could have been a handful of real followers.  And either way it is plausible that he could have attracted folk from a wide range of society

crazyheart

Did you ever  wipe  someone's feet with your  hair?  I'd have liked to have seen that!  She was laying down behind him on the floor?  I think she may have found Jesus attractive. I'm not so sure she was interested in holiness but I could be wrong. Whatever it was, Jesus liked the love. He  says Simon didn't kiss him. I wonder if he forgave Simon's sins too? 

Of course I often say we're only hearing part of the story and that's why  sometimes its hard to make sense out of it. I think there were many small villages. People gossiped and knew each other's relatives or families so they wanted to see the miracle worker. You know even today the preachers who are  into faith healing are in big  demand.

In chapter 8: 19 it says his mother and brethern could not get near him because of  the press. I don't think they had newspapers back then.....?.....so press is an odd word. Maybe it meant certain people went around the villages  or cities telling everyone about Jesus?

There are instances where someone's mood or behaviour is bemusing enough to wonder both what they are on, and if you can have some.  This time, I think most of us would stop at the first question.

I have always wondered what the others thought who were at the table when they heard Jesus forgiving the woman's sins. Where did he get that power? Today an evangelist would be laughed out of the pulpet (maybe).What did Jesus have that others don't?

crazyheart

Jesus said he got the power to forgive people's sins from God. That pretty well makes him God in the eyes of the people?  He also passed on this power to the disciples. I'm not sure when, after the resurrection or before.  That must have really shaken the people up because they had to bring a sacrifice to the temple  priests for forgiveness of sins  before this ? But then some of them, pagans perhaps didn't go to the temple anyway.

It seems Jesus was explaining what sin was or the difference between good and evil. I wonder if the woman told him what her sins were?  Yes, it would have looked odd to the people. Kiss God's feet and your sins are forgiven .....but this God just happens to be a man!  What would we think if such a man came today or need I ask? The mental institutions are full of them. Some did think he was crazy.... he's beside himself...they said. I wonder if this woman went to the synagogue after that although I think she would have to learn Judiasm to be accepted, so maybe she just hung out with Jesus and the gang.....lol....she wasn't too shy whatever else she was.

What did he have? Well in a sense I suppose we could say he was like a rock star of today. His fame went around and the people came. They came out of curiosity and may have gotten more than they bargained for.

Oddly enough at the crucifixition he himself doesn't forgive the people. He says: "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do".

I'm just high on being alive.  I have the heart and lungs of a person half my age and I"ve beaten death so many times death doesn't even visit or try anymore.  I''ve kicked death's butt so many times it's still smarting.  So I'm half crippled.  So what?  When life gives you lemons, let them rot and whip them back.  I gave up worrying and learned to love me because I"m awesome.   Happiness is a choice.  A few relatives who have ripped me off in the past for thousands of dollars are up to their eyeballs in debt and they're not happy.  In fact, they're miserable.  One of them is on the verge of bankruptcy.  They see me smile and think I'm up to something or that I"m plotting revenge  I laugh in the face of bullies and tell them grow a 'certain male body part.'  I don't criticize myself.  I don't scare myself.  I am gentle and kind and patient with myself.  I take care of my body (nutrition and weight wise that is).  I am kind to my mind.  Being an old f*rt is a choice.  Even my backside has a vertical smile.  And, besides, I'm about to become a grandpa.  You don't have to change them, feed them, put them to sleep, etc.  You just have to spoil them rotten and let your kids deal with the fallout.  Above all, remember that whatever people think of you is none of your business. 

southpaw

AW.......!

You're going to be the perfect grandpa. You'll keep 'em laughing!

Jesus was (and is) God, and was so very filled with the God-Spirit.

When you show love and compassion to people, especially those who are being downtrodden by life, people are going to be attracted.   The One who was the only one qualified to judge; that is, Jesus, chose not to condemn but rather helped people see who they could become in Him.  Let's suppose you were the most despised person in your neighbourhood.  Someone comes along and treats you like a human being who has worth and value.  You will be attracted to that person.  You will value that person.  People are attracted to Jesus even today for these same reasons.  Jesus was harsh on the Pharisees because some of them need a good K.I.T.A.  He was compassionate on those who needed compassion, and the response followed.

jae

 People in our modern era have followed spiritual people too  whom they thought were very godly like Jim Jones and David Koresh. I suppose today we're generally  more jaded than people were back in the time of Jesus.

I'm sorry, stardust, I don't understand what that means. Can you please try again.

Sorry CrazyH. You'r making the mistake of thinking its history. Better (or at least more accurate) to wonder what the writer of Luke was thinking when he wrote that.

Every time we speak as though sacred text is a recording of actual fact we do it a disservice.

To wonder "what the people who were at the table" were thinking is like wondering what those blue aliens in Avatar were thinking when the humans arrived.

Literalists and atheists both need it to be "factual" so they can prove their equally (for opposite reasons) erroneous conclusions.

To free the power of the mythos of sacred text we have to stop thinking in those terms.

David

jae

By "jaded" I mean we hear, read, and are exposed to so much dishonesty  among the spiritual flock that we no longer trust or believe in them i.e. some of the evangelists, some of the Catholic priests etc. We're not very gullible,  we don't believe all that they  tell us anymore. If Jesus came back tomorrow would we really believe it was Jesus?  I'm not so sure unless he did lots of awesome miracles.

GR: quote

"Every time we speak as though sacred text is a recording of actual fact we do it a disservice."

I think most of us realize the story may not be and probably isn't factual.  Still we enjoy putting our imaginations to work as if it was. I don't think that's harmful.  Its sort of like bible study  which goes on all the time in the churches. I can't pretend to have an inkling as to why the writer of Luke wrote it , except perhaps to say that Jesus accepted everyone including women, but that would be only an answer of 5 words, not very interesting and not enough to build a topic around.

You're right, I agree, in your assessment of today. The thing is, however, I don't know that people were ever quick to believe. There were certainly people in OT times who didn't believe in the Prophets. There were certainly people in NT times who didn't believe Jesus, some even seeing him on the side of the devil. Even looking at things from a historical point of view, outside Scripture, not everyone has joined the church so easily, and there were certainly those who were not so faithful.

jae

True!

GoldenRule.

Perfect!

I'm a little surprised, given the wide range of your spiritual interests, to hear you say that stardust. But I think you illustrate the 'harm" (although "disservice" isn't quite the same). If we can only come up with 5 words that might speak to the writer's intent, but can spend endless hours spinning fanciful imaginings about the thoughts of characters in the story, how can we expect to grow spiritually?

If you "can't pretend to have an inkling" of what the writer was saying, doesn't the sacred become nothing more than what folks like hansen claim it to be - a fairy tale?

Not intending to be negative, just trying to expand on my point.

David

According to Margaret Starbird, author of several Mary Magdalene books, the bride annointing the feet of her groom on the eve of the wedding was a royal, nuptual rite of that culture and time.

The women who annointed Jesus' feet with precious spikenard, and rubed it in with her hair, could have been either Jesus' real bride or regarded herself as his spiritual bride.

Maybe it was analagous to Ruth "uncovering the feet" of Boaz.

Biblical porn is soooooo subtle.

GR

Gosh, I'm not sure how to respond to you. You're on a mission to bring light to the fundamentalists and fundy atheists such as chansen.  I'm not on any kind of  mission here on the WC.

I don't know that I'm so spiritual .....? I've never taken up bible study and I haven't been reading the bible since many years. So, when I come here and read these  bible stories  perhaps I feel a kind of nostalgia that takes me back to my Sunday school days. Possibly I see the mundane as being sacred too.  I respond accordingly.   When the fundamentalists post their scriptures if I reply  I meet them where they are at and not with the intentions of putting them down,  although I might offer another viewpoint. On the Church Life thread they often do biblical studies similiar to crazyheart's. Seeler used to do them in F and R.

It would be helpful if you can tell us how you would respond to CH's OP and what Luke's intentions were. I guess I've just never gone that deep into  bible study. I'm sure you're much more involved and knowledgable than I am. We should be responding coming from a wider perspective in general?  Sorry ,maybe we're just not capable according to your high standards or expectations.

Arminius: quote "the bride annointing the feet of her groom on the eve of the wedding"

That's interesting. I wonder what's with all the feet fetish ... in the bible? I must ask my God Google!  I know it was a spiritual act on Jesus behalf, an act of humility, brotherhood and loving thy neighbor.

It may have originated because they wore open toe  sandals and the women didn't want sand and dirt trucked into the house  ...lol...am I silly?

oh durnit...thought you were giving "fun" tips, crazy. 

abpenny quote: "oh durnit...thought you were giving "fun" tips, crazy."

Can you tell me the start of the story about CH and the roofer?  I missed it. I heard she was up on the roof  washing the roofer's feet and she lost her balance?

Where did this woman get this precious oil with which to annoint Jesus' feet?

I have heard this explanation of the story:

She was a prostitute.  The vial of oil was one of the tools of her  trade, she dabbed a bit between her breasts when she was 'working' and the scent would attract the right kind of attention.  By breaking the vial she was signalling that she was through with that life and ready to repent (turn around) and follow Jesus.  He saw this - the broken vial - recognized it for what it was and what her intention would be, and he forgave her sins. 

Luke seems to have a soft spot for the downtrodden - the rejected - the outcast - and for women and children. 

lol - good heavens no, Stardust. I've said umpety dozen times that I've no interest at all in "bringing light" or anything else to either fundy camp. I seldom write "to" them at all in fact. As P3 and I spent three threads and innumerable posts exploring.

I think you're very spiritual. At least that part of you that you share here certainly seems to be. Like Crazyheart, you share numerous thoughts and perspectives.

I don't know what the writer's intentions were. The only thing we can do is to put our intentions into the story based on what our own faith brings out in us.

As you can see in the wide variety of responses that have been posted, that can be many things. To seek "the" interpretation is to miss the point as much as trying to make it no more than a tale of a kinky party.

lol - oh come now stardust. That just sounds petulant.

Are you saying that any no one should make any suggestions beyond the superficial? That just leaves the floor open to people like brett. Surely we're up for more than that?

Hi GoldenRule, 

It was fun, wasn't it? 

GR : your quote:

Are you saying that any no one should make any suggestions beyond the superficial? That just leaves the floor open to people like brett. Surely we're up for more than that?

C'mon, you know better. I'm not saying that!  I do think the WC contains a treasury of spiritual information for anyone who is interested.

Then it does indeed live up to my "high standards"

"was"? Past tense? Well, I certainly hope it ain't over yet. lol

Well, GR, p3, and stardust, fundies are lots of fun—that's what the name means. I urge them not to feel excluded and not to leave the Café. I'm half a fundy myself, so they are my half-brothers and half-sisters.

I was thinking we were probably finished with this particular issue for now. 

But who knows? 

Never say never :)

From other verses in the Bible we can see that Simon has not offered the usual greetings that a host would have during his day. He does not greet Jesus with a kiss or annoint his head with oil. Yet this woman does. She is viewed as a "sinner" and Simon is supposed to be part of the "spiritual community"

 ⁵ You prepare a table before me
       in the presence of my enemies.
       You anoint my head with oil;
       my cup overflows .Psalm23:5 (NIV)

⁵ Also, whenever anyone approached him to bow down before him, Absalom would reach out his hand, take hold of him and kiss him. 2 Samuel 15:5

³⁹ So all the people crossed the Jordan, and then the king crossed over. The king kissed Barzillai and gave him his blessing, and Barzillai returned to his home 2 Samuel 19:39

⁴⁹Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him. Mathew 26:49

After Simon wonders if Jesus could be a prophet he would know what kind of woman this is. Jesus then tells Simon a parable stating that the one with the greater debts (sin?) to cancel will love him more.

This parable actually makes me wonder why this woman's "sins" are considered greater than Simon's. He judges and would probably prefer not to have this "trash" in his home at all.(but would she be considered  less than a "manzer" by a pharisee?) And aren't all sins supposed to be equal? the only unforgivable sin (according to the bible) is not to love god?

I'm also thinking that because this person was a woman that we shouldn't consider a sexual connotation to this, but what she is demonstrating was an "agape" love. I do love that it is a woman though and one that has sinned to boot, because I think this demonstrates that everyone is worthy to God.

Also I'm picking up that even in a "social" setting, Jesus is still teaching (preaching).Doesn't he know  one should avoid religion and politics at a dinner party?

He's controversial, he goes against the grain, he's interesting and he includes everyone and makes everyone feel welcome. He is the perfect Host and not Simon.

It reminds me of the movie "Gone with the Wind" when Melanie greets Scarlett in her red dress after she is percieved to have had an affair with her husband. She introduces  her to each guest and loves her unconditionally.

I'm thinking Jesus had a huge following because he was a champion for everyone that believed that love rules and everyone felt worthy no matter what their circumstances were. He was fearless and disregarded any repercussions for what needed to be said.

Hi-waterfall-I Think what you wrote is a great insight into the word.God bless airclean