I found it on line (though I had to dig)   toronto star

I hope we checked on copyright & borrowing ads first, but great idea!  It takes the discussion & controversy in a new direction and may benefit the idea of freethinking (the group of the original ad is Freethinkers Association) by having the discussions with normal, sane people like wondercafers  lol.  

honestly, I think it was a bold and witty move.  Bring it on.

Yes, I find it to be so very UCC - respectful yet controversial, open to the discussion, welcoming those who oppose, giving the choice to disagree. Well said Birthstone - bold and witty, indeed!

Perhaps we should put it up on some busses - it would be great if we could get it on the same busses as the original campaign.

 hmmm - I wonder how much a bus ad or 2 would cost.  I've seen some by small companies before.  Interesting thought.

Nice!  There is hope for us yet!  Kudos to everyone involved not only for a good idea, for getting it done so quickly as to scoop the ads we are "responding" to.  Who knew the church could move that quickly?

I am deeply pleased by this development :D

Adam Giambrone 
TTC Chair

"We are going to accept the ads because we accept religious advertising on the (TTC) system," Giambrone said.

"Our legal interpretation is that you cannot discriminate based on creed" – a position the TTC is applying to atheism, though it is not specifically referred to in the Ontario Human Rights Code.

It would seem that Mr. Giambrone does not know atheists very well, does he? Using words like religion and creed in reference to atheists I would think be enough to make their skin crawl. Or would it?

MarketingMag article on the United Church's response to the "There's probably no God" ads.

http://www.marketingmag.ca/english/news/marketer/article.jsp?content=20090129_172342_50860

Atheism is certainly not a religion, nor does it have a creed.  However, these ads are on the subject of religion, and so I think his way of approaching it is a good one.

Darn, I was hoping for some analysis and opinion of the campaign (which I expect to be good :)).  Still, the more it gets picked up, the better.

 Cool, Aaron - good comments about the question of running the ads on the buses or not.  Maybe we ought to try that with some of the mosquito ads or the Christmas & Easter ones??  Fun, larger than life way to get attention.

CF - atheists are likely to argue against religion by describing it with (non)creeds & (non)religion.  It is simply a meaningful way to communicate, no matter how much they squirm.  It will be good for them to have the UCC in on this, and good for everyone.  I think we're seeing this as part of the trend towards intelligence over apathetic intentional 'dumbness'.  Hopefully more people will talk more, think more and be able to express themselves authentically & usefully no matter what stripe or spot they show.  That's good for everyone.

Reminds me of those ads that the Latter Day Saints had on TV. Anyone remember those? Did they cause the atheists to feel threatened?

Hi RevMatt and Birthstone.

Good points. I just thought it was kind of funny to see the words religion and creed so close to, and used in conjunction with the word atheist.

Greetings!

This is going to make for some good conversation on Wondercafe . . .!

Birthstone makes a good point about checking on the copyright laws.

Hope, peace, joy, love . . .

Agreed.  It's a bit of a non-sequitor :)

(did I spell that right?  I hope so...)

Atheists talk about religion all the time. they just don't believe it to be true or relevant.

Some of them don't even like pie.

I'm soooo freaking excited. 

I LOVE YOU EMERGING SPIRIT!!!!

See this is the kind of thing we can do if we are bold, and follow our dreams.  Man they were fast!! 

And to the comment above asking about getting the ads on transit, I think it is a great idea.   If resources allow it would be nice to see this happen in each city the atheist ads run.  It would really be nice to do it nationally, but if you run in the same markets you can have much better penetration per dollar as we only have to pay for a fraction of the ads.    I've seen teaser type campagns where they run an ad with no name for a period then introduce the the actual thing they are advertising.  This will work the same way for us!

The marketing magazine article gives more info about the strategy and how they are spinning it.  I guess I should trust the professionals.

http://www.marketingmag.ca/english/news/marketer/article.jsp?content=20090129_172342_50860

I'm hyped.

"There probably *IS* a god, now stop worrying!" commentary from the Canadian Atheist Bus Campaign site about the United Church joining in the dialogue about the atheist bus ads.

http://atheistbus.ca/2009/01/30/there-probably-is-a-god-now-stop-worrying/

Yes, well my answer is...

Of course there's a God.

Now receive God's gift of salvation, stop worrying, and enjoy everlasting life.

Hello all.....God bless you....

I agree jubilee....Of Course There Is God...

Now receive Gods gift of Salvation, stop worrying , and enjoy everlasting life....

amen and amen....Awesome God We Serve....

Here's an atheist forum entitled "Freethought etc." I don't know if its affliated or if its independent of the group. Oh, I see it originates in New Zealand but of course its a wide open forum like the WC. One of our members, Greatest I Am, is also a member of it.

http://www.freeratio.org/forumdisplay.php?s=c5e84553f7ea476d66da6f28886dac6b&f=54

Before talking about believing in God, or discussing the possible existence or non-existence of God, we need to define God.

To me, God is the creative, transformative or transcendental power of the universe. IT obviously exists. And, if the universe is self-creative or self transcendental—as I believe IT to be—then God is the self-transcendental universe.

This puts God squarely into our lap, our hearts and minds, and everywhere around us. What a great way to be!

Love it!  What a great response.

Arminius - are you trying to take the wonder out of God? Next you'll be telling me the moon is just a cold desolate rock flying around the Earth.

I think you've got a great definition of "God," but I feel kind of lost in it. It's impersonal, subjective, and vague. Which is why it's so great, I guess. There's no arguing it. I think that God is the creative, transformative or transcendental power of the universe, but it is the same as saying that God is the fresh breeze in a stale cell, the fresh water which revives a stagnant pond, or the irrational hope in the face of uncertainty... You have defined God with three undefined whimsical subjective terms. It's fine to me. I believe in the God you define.

Isn't the moon magical tonight? Oh yes, I almost forgot. It's just a rock.

Trying to define God is like trying to catch a dragon by the tail. You're more likely to end up losing your hand than saving any distressed captives.

For some reason I think I'm going to get a flogging now.

Hi Witch,

That's crazy talk!

Don't like pie?

Clearly that speaks to some derangement of somekind.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Heathens I tell you. HEATHENS, the lot of em'!!!!!!

Except...there really probably isn't a god if you look at what probably really means.

Mind you anyone can utter any old thing I guess and stick it on an ad.

You might have fared a bit better if you had added "but that's what faith is for" to the end of the original atheist ad.  The way you've done it is fairly apparent as a childish way of turning the argument around but without anything to back it up.

"probably" makes people think about probability and what's behind that in terms of evidence or proof. 

I kind of love the UCC.

Hi GadZooks: No, I don't take the wonder out of God—I put the wonder into God!

Yes, that's all we have: whimsical, subjective, undefinable terms. But the wonder is not in the terms—it is in the experience behind the terms!

Is that the flogging you expected?

You know after looking over some of that Freethinkers thing et al, It really hit me.  Many of Atheists hold the antithetical convictions as the extreme religious right. 

"You can believe whatever you want, as long as its what I believe..."

Interesting.  So much for free thinking.  And don't even get me started on painting with a broad brush...

As-Salaamu Alaikum

-Omni

"There probably isn't a flying spaghetti monster, so get your fork and dig in"

Arminuis - I was hoping to get you going a little more, actually; but once again you've amazed me by your eloquence and restraint ;) I really don't disagree with you one bit - I just thought I'd come out to challenge you and hear a little more about your description of God as an experiential entity. It is all in the experience, and how open one is to it.

And, for the record - I don't think you put the wonder into God. I think God is the source of the wonder in you! Let's not draw attention to the finger pointing at the moon, when the moon is the thing to contemplate - right?

Omni, that's not true. Everybody has a right to agree or disagree. It's only those who try to influence behaviour or limit the rights of others without providing logical reasons for doing so that we have a quarrel with.

I like the atheist bus ads because they let non-believers know there are others who feel the same way they do. I like the fact that this campaign is opening channels for people to converse and clear up false impressions about what they believe and don't believe (on both sides). 

Yes, GadZooks, I couldn't agree more: God is the source of wonder in us—as well as the wonder ITself.

 Wonder upon wonder, eh? What a wonderful world!

In German, the word for "miracle" and "wonder" is the same: "Wunder." I feel that way, too; just being is a constant wonder and miracle to me.

Now I'm off for my daily contemplative walk through a sunny winter wonderland down to the frozen river. More wonders!

GadZooks

"Creative, transformative or transcendental power of the universe......"

IT is a bit difficult to pray to. Gosh, I can hardly say the words! I'll have to go back to school. 

 As I read on  various spiritual  forums it seems lots of people  believe the cosmos or universe supplies their needs so there is no need to pray , meaning to ask for anything. They do send positive thoughts to others for healing etc. They don't address any deity per se as the universe, cosmos is the deity.

 I also send postive thoughts  via the universe but when  I feel a need for a personal God  I'm still way back in the land of the dinosaurs praying to the biblical God in Jesus Name. Arminius likes Christos I think (German for Christ or is it Latin) so maybe he does address same because he was praying to Christ Jesus when he had his other world experience.

(Arminius pray thee tell .....?)

 That forum that you directed us to, Stardust - wondered why our WC conversation was so tame...

Well so far, we all pretty much agree and we know each other - hard to debate.  I got the feeling they were hoping for a big dust-up.  

Some folks are dissapointed that we put "probably" is a God and don't think it's much of a faith statement on our part.

When I first heard of the British Ads I wondered what they are worried about.  Some Higher Power does exist, obviously we are not an accident, which is the "reductionist's view.  Too much of creation is 'ordered' and fits together right from the very atom to the DNA.

It was said at that time that the reason God  cannot be, is that Darwin's Theory of Evolution made the need for God unnecessary.  Some Loving Knowing Energy (I am not afraid of using other descriptions for God, knowing full well that God is undefineable in human terms) started things at the 'beginning'.

They say they are against 'religion', which is an organized faith system, now here they are organizing to create ads about their position (belief).  It seems therefore that they are now drawing themselves into a 'cult' where most Religious systems started.  I wonder if they see they are now contradicting themselves.

It is certainly true the Christian Church has been taking God's Name in vain every time they use it to get away with evil things such as war, inquisitions, discriminations of so many kinds, and plain selfish attitudes...we are right, you are not!  This is more arrogant and love will not dwell there. Our message needs to change into the New Testamant God that Jesus called on, prayed to, and gave up everything to follow. This God is about Love...period!

Biblical stories are stories from people who were wondering way back then just how all this got started, just as many still wonder about and work to solve.  It is a mystery,  I no longer worry about...since this Loving Energy, I call God, is part of my faith, I leave that there.

I find my Faith calls me to other  more important things like working for Justice, Peace, and so, using my energy for creating peace inside myself, so it can be offered to others. Calling out for Justice, not revenge; feeding the hungry; meeting people as they are.....already loved by God.  This was, and is, the Jesus message and call to wake up to that and make it happen. There will be no such thing as Freedom until all are treated as equal.  So far, God is the only taker on that...well Jesus did too.  He treated women and children as equal in importance as to the male of our species.....all people are created by the one Lover of the Universe.  That One does not discriminate like humans.

And so the world continues to live the results of its actions and desires for the ego's 'I want', instead of love.  Canadians have been taught to be quiet and wait for others to act.... we need to wake up!  There is no time like the Present for living life.  That's all we have.

I often wonder if the word "God" is part of the problem since so many evils, past and even today, are using God's name to back up their own needs to fight and kill off other of God's own children.  I can really see how that could be part of the whole problem.  We need to change our thinking, as well, and also use other names that still cannot fully describe the vastness of our Source of Being.

The 'probably' of our United Church Ad has been explained by David Giuliano...thanks!

It is great this conversation happens - because the God question is central. I recommend Charles Hartshorne's book - Omnipotence and other Theological Mistakes.

Three images:

Using a metaphor of parent and child ( and all metaphors are limited)

I have two sons.  I am a product of a history and friends and a theology. I have my love for them which remains through all the changes we go through.  It is constant.  I offer my best ideas to them. (In God's character that love is eternal and always with us.)   I offer it to them, talk with them, and in the end what I give them is now theirs.  They have their own creativity and freedom to do with what I give them, change and make it new,  even as it is both a past and present, for we still engage one another.   They make it their own.  They now have children who they seek to influence and those children must make the gift their own.  They have wives, and friends, who they influence and are influence by.  The dynamic continues building out the past, constructing in the present an identity.  God works the same way in every nano second.  There is the history and in the present as one of the causal factors of what actually happens.  God is the one who offers unlimited love which gets actualized in our reception and use of it.

There is another understanding of God who works with persuasion.  And people have real free will, not derived from God.  So God has a dream of a world where the common good is the end of all action, God offers that dream to humanity in every age and time and circumstance. 

This dream is actualized in our living and was actualized in previous generations living and ideas.  Humans have created structures of knowledge base on this divine dream(lure) that worked for that time/space and each generations works on that structure, to improve and sometimes to make it less. 

So culture is the way ideas and values are carried forward, and religion has been the force to reinforce it.  Now not all religions are theistic, however that does not deny the theory that God works through persuasion and the outcome will be different for different historical routes of actualization.  

So we posit that even if God is not acknowledged God keeps offering God's dream to us, for God never gives up.

Many secular humanists base their rejection of any concept of God on only the supernatural version.   They get stuck when it comes to a panentheistic version - they may not accept it, but they cannot disprove it like they can with a supernaturalistic view.

In the end values are a product of God's dream and our response and our own additions to the dream... we can improvise and God must improvise with us.

Last image for those who love and play jazz.  God sets down the original melody, plays it for us, then someone, or all of the other players play that melody for a time, and then someone solos, improvises the melody, takes it places it has never been, and then it is offered back to God and group who play with the improvisation, and then another solo and on and on.  The tune ends, becomes a standard.... then God picks up the piano again and improvises on the standard, the others fall  in , get it down, and then solo, each taking turn, being leader and follower, group and solo and then another standard is created... on on goes the music.

God is both the source of the music and the receiver of that which is played and harmonized in God to offer a new tune in harmony with God's dream, for God is the dreamer and we are dreamers, each in their own gifts, the eternal and the finite, both working and creating.

The interesting theological issue is focused around how God is or is not an active agent in history.   The responses show there are several doctrines about God alive and well in the church - classic theism, pantheism, deism, and panentheism.

Within conservative circles a doctrine of revelation allows for God to intervene in history.   This  is Ontological supernaturalism. There is a power who has determined all things and can interrupt the world’s normal processes, and has in the past and might still do so in the future.  A revision is free will theists  who hold God COULD determine all-things, but God self limited God.  So there is an element of free will in determining daily life.

However, such views are hard to hold for most modern people. Some have reverted to Deism, where God started it all, gave rules and then left center stage.  This was the understanding of such people like Newton. 

While that view is still operative it is not religiously satisfying.  Liberal theologians rejected ontological supernaturalism.   They settled the issue of truth by experience and reason.   Faith becomes a private experience and is not testable except by the action of the believer.   The testing is based on faithfulness to tradition and /or how the believer shows their faith by ethics.  The foundational mode of religion, the reality of God was not sustainable.   God could only be experienced indirectly not directly.
 
An “Act of God” becomes something that evokes faith in the believer.   It could be how a passage of scripture seems to be so right for a moment, creating faith.  Yet Incarnation cannot be a metaphysical reality.   Liberal theology, while in part helpful, called into question divine activity.   This undercuts religious experience as a direct experience of God.

There is also a movement to a form of gnosticism. It has many different  forms and one that emerged in response to the enlightenment and deism is a form of theosophy.  Here the natural world is reduced to the the spiritual world.  What truly animates the natural world is spirit and the job of the religious seeker is to find that spirituality and let it inform them.  It has an appeal but what it is based on is a form of dualism and accepts that the task of the person is become more spiritual.  While that is a worthy goal the foundational metaphysics is a denial of our experience of our material experience.  It is another dualism of mind body split.  The body becomes only the form or container to carry the spirit and leads to a world denying theology - where our true reality is spirit.  It does reflect the understanding that there is a direct experience of God but does deny incarnation.  The goal is God consciousness not in the sense that God informs consciousness. The goal is the disappearance of our self awareness - the sense of self disappears.  It also has a telos that is built on a future eschatology that means the end of human experience is to be enfolded into the divine.  It loses the idea that all of creation goans for fullness.

This does sound like like the idea that God interacts with us in space and time but its goal is still to become gods rather than humans more fully alive.  Agency is pure God agency and we become little gods.  While attractive it still is a world denying theology. 

What tradition affirmed was an experience of God that enlivened all actual reality and informed human agency.  This is the telos of humans becoming more fully human - an embodied spirituality.

For the person who wants to affirm religious experience panentheism is the most helpful.  It understands that what is real  is created out of the ultimate units of the world which are momentary events in interaction with other events to create actual things which are also momentary.   Given this we can make sense of God interacting with the world and thus prayer to be a reality.  Actuality, what is, arises out of the influences of the past, the world around, leaves room for the influence of God, and completes itself by the individual deciding how to respond to those influences in light of its own aims. God offers beauty, harmony, and novelty to each nano second but cannot force this on the world. God influences through persuasion and there is freedom and creativity to accept or reject the influences of God in each nano second.   Prayer is an offering back to God our resolutions of events to be used in the next becoming process. and it also opens us to the experience of God in this moment.
 

Out here on the Prairies where we get everything last, there was an article in the 2nd Section of the weekend paper about the United Church initiative ,  Emerging Spirit, and a small mention of WonderCafe.So once it hits saskatchewan, the word is out.

Whether God intervenes is hard to say, perhaps when we are in tune with our inner spirit things seems to change, or perhaps it's because we look at it in a different way...in the light of love.

WALL-E is a movie that has truths about how we treat the earth and our need to 'get' and 'have' things.  The garbage sent humans to space in a ship where they eventually became 'without bones' because of lack of using them.  I saw WALL-E as somewhat like Jesus who came unexpected and unwanted by the Powers of the day, including the religious leaders.  His arrival on the ship interrupted the inert people on the spaceship and got them looking at what they were missing, and what was right there they had not seen.  They were programmed into mindless habits.  The power of the Captain was challenged by  the computer-robot made to serve the Captain, which tried to stop the Captain from bringing the people home (to earth).

The small plant in a boot, was the sign of life on earth that had been sought.... and now found.  The people wanted to go home and the fight began to stop that.  In the end love wins and they do get home.  Re-birth, starting over again...after 700 years in space.  Home still was the deepest call in them, but they needed to come alert and recognize it.

However, as the leader of the discussion after the movie, pointed out to the children and us, the movie was about needing to stop waste, garbage and the like on this planet.   Of all things, the movie-makers have toys and other things to sell... making stuff for you guessed it...garbage.  How does that leave the movie's message?   It seems they have not received the message of their own movie.

She then asked the children what could you do instead of buying things that end up garbage?  Some said they could sell seeds for planting gardens; boxes for plants on balconies; and flower pots;  things that not only bring colour, but do not add to the garbage.

The movie has wonderful messages of love and caring and following through and the interrupting we can be about to move beyond habits to new ways of living.

We have had prophets that have been speaking for generations, some right here and right now. Our action on those things of environmemt and violence have not caused us to rise up against them enough to make the changes that are so needed right now. Time marches on with, or, without us.

Jesus came over 2000 years ago and interrupted the fine lives of the people in power...we still have those people, and, even now, the masses are mainly left out. Most people in Canada have no idea what it is really like 'there'. They are our brothers and sisters; we breathe the same air, drink essentially the same water, as generations before us.

Our call to be alive today now takes on Athiests' as they are speaking up.  Are we living, those of us who have Faith in a Loving God, as though we know this is truth?

Is this what they cannot see?  Or, refuse to see?  I see God's hand in science, in everything. But, we need to stop using God as a means to and end, and live the love God is!

Any time we limit God's love we limit our own.... and ....when we limit our love, we limit our being able to live the love God has given us.

There's probably a pie. Now stop worrying and grab a fork.

Those are all certainly part of the discussion.  I think that the media has been blindly sharing one style of Christian idea with people, and it has pushed 'the rest of us' to this ad campaign (both the Freethinkers and the UCC (and all those who are both :O )

So, whatnow?  What now?  :)  where do we go with this?  what do you think about it?

Birthstone: your quote:

That forum that you directed us to, Stardust - wondered why our WC conversation was so tame...

I must check it out. I only read 2/3 threads. It has the name Freethought but it probably isn't related to the same group sponsoring the ads. Greatest I Am provided the link orginally here on the WC.

We have quite a few members who are  skilled in debate. I'm not one of them. I'm afraid I'll be sitting on the sidelines reading.

Perhaps I'm a pessimist in that I think we'll draw  X number of new people who aren't the slightest bit interested in God or religion. They'll be here to play games for which I've no patience at all; stir the soup, stoke the fire. When we don't respond by cursing and swearing  they're very dissappointed.

However, the UC sees an opportunity to reach out in a new way to the public at large which is fine. I hope benefits may be gained; even unseen benefits we may never hear about.

Your quote:I think that the media has been blindly sharing one style of Christian idea with people.

Yes, I agree. People's introductory  knowledge of Christianity in general may often be coming from the TV evangelists. Everyone is familiar with them particularly in light of the scandals. The WC can be a learning experience  in spirituality for those who are open to it.

P.S. Pan and others: Great posts!

Hi stardust:

This thread sure has taken off, it grew by several feet since I looked at it last! The (non)existence of God must be a favourite topic among Christians.

In answer to your question, "Christ" is "Christus" in German.

And yes, I did pray to Jesus Christ, asking him to reveal God to me. A few hours later I received a vision of God as the self-generative Kosmos. So who says petitioning a deity doesn't help?

Yes, I usually frown on prayer as a petition, and don't do it. I don't believe in an interventionist God. To petition any deity for the fulfilment of personal wishes seems presumptuous, childish, futile, and absurd to me. My ususal prayers are attempts to link myself with the Divine. Yet the only time I petitioned a deity, my prayer was answered in the grandest possible way! Go, figure!

Although I have all kinds of clever explantions, God, or Kosmos, is still a mystery to me, which I experience, gratefully, and in deep awe, moment by precious moment, but can't adequately explain.

My favourite theology is in line with RevKing's: Unitheism. God is the Kosmic Synthesis, which is a Zero entity in analytical terms. Synthesis cannot be expressed in analytical terms and concepts, but in can be experienced, and we do experience IT, in the pure unconceptualized experience.

In other words, in the pure unconceptualized experience we experience God, and our conceptualizations thereof are our creations.

Are you following the poll results and look what has a hefty lead?

yeah - no kidding!!  Now, is that made of us longtimers or a bunch of quiet lurkers, or who?  Interesting! 

presently 61% probably NO God

39% probably A God

As I have said in response to other puzzling results - computer polls like this are pretty easy to stack, if you know what you're doing. There are those who will say that I am in denial because "my side" is losing, but if you ask me, who's more likely to stack the vote? I would like to think that a great number of United Church people are either too honest, too interested in the fair result, or too lazy to do it. 

I am most suspicious because, like one other poll, I noticed the percentage changed by a great degree in a short period. I only notice this because I check in here far too often, lately!

Please vote in the poll! At the moment the "Not" votes are winning 60-40 because the folks behind the atheist ad campaign are asking folks who visit their website (http://atheistbus.ca/) to vote. We should let the world know what we think too! Thanks!